Policy Review Review - Complete Movepool Submissions

[Rising_Dusk]

We don't know, but maybe there are. If you actually read the paragraph above the T-M and M-M lists, you'll see that it says that they aren't yet updated for BW. Note that the reason we haven't been able to update them is that we lack a database search and sort like Doug did for DPP. These are not mission critical in either case, though, since now they're only guidelines and not fixtures in the movepool stage.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Hold on, I'm not sold on the 100% outclassed moves.
Fire Punch > Fire Fang
Fire Fang can flinch, so there are situations where Fire Fang is more usable. Therefore it is not 100% outclassed

Hi Jump Kick > Jump Kick
Jump Kick is more accurate, therefore it's a more reliable move. Hi Jump Kick is better, but Jump Kick has small merit.

Ice Punch > Ice Fang
ThunderPunch > Thunder Fang
See Fire Fang.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Please refer to the on-site page, not the one in the OP. I have already made edits where I felt that a move wasn't fully outclassed as BMB presented.

Jump Kick is 100% outclassed because the damage change is so substantial. No one, and I mean no one, will run Jump Kick over Hi Jump Kick. Ever. While this may technically be true for Ice Punch > Ice Fang too, they do different enough things (different secondary effects) that I don't consider them totally interdependent. Hi Jump Kick and Jump Kick are a lot more interlinked than that, and that's where I've decided to draw the line.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

As he said, Jump Kick is totally outclassed by Hi Jump Kick. The elemental fangs are outclassed since their chances for either effects are extremely rare. Just because they are outclassed doesn't mean they are completely ruled out however.

 

[petrie911]

Well, I now have the Type-Move requirements. The following is a list of all moves with >80% frequency on each type. Pokemon that cannot learn TM moves were discarded to avoid skewing the results.

Firstly, the following TMs are learnable by all Pokemon that can learn TMs. As such, they were not included in the Type-move requirements, since they would show up on everything.

Required TMs

TM06 Toxic
TM10 Hidden Power
TM15 Hyper Beam*
TM17 Protect***
TM21 Frustration
TM27 Return
TM32 Double Team
TM42 Facade
TM44 Rest***
TM45 Attract**
TM48 Round
TM68 Giga Impact*
TM87 Swagger
TM90 Substitute

*Hyper Beam and Giga Impact are learnable by all fully-evolved Pokemon that can learn TMs.
**Attract is learnable by all gendered Pokemon that can learn TMs except Nincada, plus Mew and Cryogonal.
***Regigas cannot learn Protect or Rest. All other Pokemon that can learn TMs can.

Here's the type-move requirements. Although all Pokemon were considered, only methods available to 5th gen Pokemon were considered. This is why, for example, Outrage is not required on a Dragon-type.

Under each move name is the number of Pokemon of that type who can learn the move, the total number of Pokemon of that type that can learn TMs, and the percentage of Pokemon of that type that learn the move, in that order.

Normal

Rain Dance
93 96 96.875000
Sunny Day
95 96 98.958333
Cheer Up
90 96 93.750000

Fighting

Strength
40 40 100.000000
Rock Slide
37 40 92.500000
Sunny Day
36 40 90.000000
Rock Smash
40 40 100.000000
Brick Break
36 40 90.000000
Rock Tomb
35 40 87.500000
Bulk Up
34 40 85.000000
Fling
34 40 85.000000
Poison Jab
34 40 85.000000
Focus Blast
38 40 95.000000
Ankle Sweep
35 40 87.500000
Retribution
35 40 87.500000
Cheer Up
40 40 100.000000

Flying

Aerial Ace
76 81 93.827160

Poison

Sludge Bomb
55 55 100.000000
Sunny Day
52 55 94.545455
Venom Shock
55 55 100.000000

Ground

Strength
47 58 81.034483
Earthquake
56 58 96.551724
Dig
50 58 86.206897
Rock Slide
54 58 93.103448
Sandstorm
52 58 89.655172
Rock Smash
53 58 91.379310
Rock Tomb
55 58 94.827586
Level Field
57 58 98.275862

Rock

Earthquake
40 47 85.106383
Rock Slide
47 47 100.000000
Sandstorm
47 47 100.000000
Rock Smash
43 47 91.489362
Rock Tomb
47 47 100.000000
Rock Polish
47 47 100.000000
Stone Edge
41 47 87.234043
Knock Down
43 47 91.489362
Level Field
40 47 85.106383

Bug

Sunny Day
43 52 82.692308
Bug Bite
51 52 98.076923
Bug Repellant
52 52 100.000000

Ghost

Psychic
25 27 92.592593
Dream Eater
25 27 92.592593
Flash
23 27 85.185185
Thief
23 27 85.185185
Rain Dance
23 27 85.185185
Psych Up
24 27 88.888889
Shadow Ball
27 27 100.000000
Will-O-Wisp
24 27 88.888889
Astonish
22 27 81.481481
Telekinesis
25 27 92.592593
Evil Eye
22 27 81.481481

Steel

Rock Smash
30 35 85.714286
Flash Cannon
29 35 82.857143

Fire

Ember
39 48 81.250000
Flamethrower
48 48 100.000000
Fire Blast
48 48 100.000000
Sunny Day
48 48 100.000000
Will-O-Wisp
48 48 100.000000
Overheat
47 48 97.916667
Nitro Charge
47 48 97.916667
Incinerate
48 48 100.000000

Water

Surf
106 108 98.148148
Ice Beam
104 108 96.296296
Blizzard
101 108 93.518519
Waterfall
88 108 81.481481
Rain Dance
108 108 100.000000
Hail
102 108 94.444444
Dive
97 108 89.814815
Boil Over
99 108 91.666667

Grass

Swords Dance
62 75 82.666667
SolarBeam
75 75 100.000000
Flash
74 75 98.666667
Sunny Day
73 75 97.333333
Energy Ball
75 75 100.000000
Grass Knot
74 75 98.666667

Electric

Thunderbolt
38 38 100.000000
Thunder Wave
39 38 102.631579*
Thunder
37 38 97.368421
Light Screen
34 38 89.473684
Flash
37 38 97.368421
Rain Dance
38 38 100.000000
Discharge
34 38 89.473684
Charge Beam
38 38 100.000000
Volt Change
36 38 94.736842
Wild bolt
35 38 92.105263

*Tynamo cannot learn TMs, but can still learn Thunder Wave.

Psychic

Psychic
64 64 100.000000
Light Screen
64 64 100.000000
Reflect
59 64 92.187500
Dream Eater
61 64 95.312500
Flash
64 64 100.000000
Rain Dance
60 64 93.750000
Psych Up
64 64 100.000000
Shadow Ball
61 64 95.312500
Calm Mind
58 64 90.625000
Trick Room
57 64 89.062500
Grass Knot
54 64 84.375000
Psycho Shock
62 64 96.875000
Telekinesis
62 64 96.875000

Ice

Ice Beam
29 29 100.000000
Blizzard
29 29 100.000000
Rain Dance
29 29 100.000000
Hail
29 29 100.000000

Dragon

DragonBreath
24 29 82.758621
Rain Dance
26 29 89.655172
Sunny Day
27 29 93.103448
Rock Smash
24 29 82.758621
Draco Meteor
29 29 100.000000

Dark

Thief
34 39 87.179487
Torment
37 39 94.871795
Taunt
36 39 92.307692
Payback
36 39 92.307692
Retribution
32 39 82.051282
Bark out
35 39 89.743590

 

[Rising_Dusk]

This is very interesting. I'm curious to know more about your methods of acquiring this data. I know it's possible by parsing through information from veekun, but you really haven't covered it at all in the above post, and I think it's a critical bit of information.

Under each move name is the number of Pokemon of that type who can learn the move, the total number of Pokemon of that type that can learn TMs, and the percentage of Pokemon of that type that learn the move, in that order.

What relevance does that bolded number have? To me, I'd count the number of Pokemon that can learn a move, the number of Pokemon of that type, and then the ratio of the two would be the percent Pokemon of that type that can get the move. I don't see how the number of Pokemon of that type that can learn TMs is relevant, since if enough Pokemon of a type can't learn TMs, clearly that is a trend within that type for real Pokemon.

Also, you should post your base data so that I can work at manipulating it as well and see what interesting results can be obtained. This is very cool, and thanks a lot for taking the initiative to do it, I'd just like to play with it myself before we act upon it.

 

[petrie911]

This is very interesting. I'm curious to know more about your methods of acquiring this data. I know it's possible by parsing through information from veekun, but you really haven't covered it at all in the above post, and I think it's a critical bit of information.

I coded a little something up in C that could pull move and type data for each Pokemon out of Pokemon Online's data files. Since Pokemon Online categorizes where moves come from, it was fairly easy to weed out all but 5th gen methods. Once I had the ability to get the data, the program simply made a list of all Pokemon of that type, then went through each of the 559 moves and kept track of who had which one.

What relevance does that bolded number have? To me, I'd count the number of Pokemon that can learn a move, the number of Pokemon of that type, and then the ratio of the two would be the percent Pokemon of that type that can get the move. I don't see how the number of Pokemon of that type that can learn TMs is relevant, since if enough Pokemon of a type can't learn TMs, clearly that is a trend within that type for real Pokemon.

The main problem is the bug type. 10 of 62 Bug-types can't learn any TMs, meaning that every move, even ones like Hidden Power, would have less than 85% frequency. This isn't really good for getting an idea of how moves are distributed, because all fully-evolved Bug types can learn TMs.

That was really the only place it made a difference. I threw out the others for consistency, but no other type has a problem with it.

Also, you should post your base data so that I can work at manipulating it as well and see what interesting results can be obtained. This is very cool, and thanks a lot for taking the initiative to do it, I'd just like to play with it myself before we act upon it.

Well, as mentioned, the base data was pulled directly from Pokemon Online's data files. I can give you the source for the program, though it's not commented at all.

http://pastebin.com/zb5Y2CGT

On the upside, due to Pokemon Online using the same format for pretty much all its data files, the program should be easily generalizable to a lot of different types of data analysis.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

The main problem is the bug type. 10 of 62 Bug-types can't learn any TMs, meaning that every move, even ones like Hidden Power, would have less than 85% frequency. This isn't really good for getting an idea of how moves are distributed, because all fully-evolved Bug types can learn TMs.

I would've personally thrown out the likes of Weedle/Kakuna/etc. as anomalies, much like how I presume you threw out Magikarp, Feebas, and other such problem Pokemon. If it didn't really make a difference otherwise, though, then not a big deal.

Anyway, I glanced over your code and it looks legit. I'm extremely happy that you went through and did this, because it means it got done sooner rather than later and, more importantly, I didn't have to do it myself. Everything seems to be in order for this, great job! I'll try to organize the data together into a table at some point and put it on-site for everyone to use.

 

[Kindrindra]

I have a few questions.

Aromatherapy > Heal Bell
Autotomize > Agility, Rock Polish

First of all, how does Aromatherapy outclass Heal Bell? I would think they would more be equivalent moves, now that Heal Bell heals pokemon even with the Soundproof ability.

Next I would like to point out that Automize doesn't always outclass the other two. In the rare situation where a CAP would find use from Heavy Slam or Heat Stamp, I believe that the other two would be superior.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Please, please, please check the on-site page for this found here and not the OP of this thread. You'll notice that I have Aromatherapy and Heal Bell listed as equivalent VGMs, not outclassing/outclassed VGMs. (They're so close in effect that we can consider them the same for VGM counting purposes) Secondly, if there's actually a situation where a CAP would want to use Heavy Bomber or Heat Stamp, the TL would post saying that they're not necessarily outclassed. There's nothing wrong with how it's presented right now.

 

[Luigifan]

Flame Charge isn't useful as an attack, but it could be a solid option for something that needs Fire-type coverage and doesn't have any other options in that regard (like Zebstrika), or for something that doesn't have any other Speed-boosting moves. We could also call it a Non-Attacking move, since it's more useful for its secondary effect than as an offensive move (like Rapid Spin and Knock Off.)

Soak could conceivably be used to force switches, assuming that the user has access to decently strong Electric or Grass-type attacks to threaten to KO with. Lanturn and Ludicolo are what I can come up with off the top of my head, but maybe there are others (and I'm not positive that those two even get Soak.)

Power Gem, as has been mentioned before, is pretty much the strongest Special Rock-type move that has semi-decent distribution (which is pretty much the whole reason that Paleo Wave was invented - a Rock-type Special Sweeper needed stronger STAB, and nothing was available.)

First of all, how does Aromatherapy outclass Heal Bell? I would think they would more be equivalent moves, now that Heal Bell heals pokemon even with the Soundproof ability.

Next I would like to point out that Automize doesn't always outclass the other two. In the rare situation where a CAP would find use from Heavy Slam or Heat Stamp, I believe that the other two would be superior.

I was also gonna bring this up, but it looks like I don't need to. :p However, I would like to bring up that using Autotomize would make you take more damage from an opponent's Heavy Slam/Heat Press, due to the Base Power of those moves being based on the difference between the weight of the user and the target.

Hold on, I'm not sold on the 100% outclassed moves.
Fire Punch > Fire Fang
Fire Fang can flinch, so there are situations where Fire Fang is more usable. Therefore it is not 100% outclassed

Hi Jump Kick > Jump Kick
Jump Kick is more accurate, therefore it's a more reliable move. Hi Jump Kick is better, but Jump Kick has small merit.

Ice Punch > Ice Fang
ThunderPunch > Thunder Fang
See Fire Fang.

Ditto. Well, except that Hi Jump Kick's accuracy isn't that much lower than Jump Kick's. However, seeing as the penalty for missing with Hi Jump Kick and Jump Kick is a lot more severe than merely wasting your turn, being more concerned about their relative accuracy than we would be with other moves is understandable.

 

[petrie911]

OK, after multiple hours of computing using 8 threads, I now have Move-Move requirements. The following VGMs appear on at least 15 fully-evolved Pokemon, and the Move-Move requirements are those moves which appear on at least 90% of them. Note that due to their extremely wide distribution, Rain Dance, Rock Smash, Strength, and Sunny Day were excluded from the pool of moves. As, of course, were the universal TMs.

Move-Move Requirements

Fire Punch
Fling
19 19 100.000000
Focus Blast
19 19 100.000000

Ice Punch
Fling
19 19 100.000000
Focus Blast
18 19 94.736842

ThunderPunch
Fling
18 18 100.000000
Focus Blast
18 18 100.000000

Flamethrower
Incinerate
79 86 91.860465

Hydro Pump
Surf
42 45 93.333333
Ice Beam
42 45 93.333333
Blizzard
42 45 93.333333
Hail
42 45 93.333333

Ice Beam
Blizzard
112 124 90.322581

Blizzard
Ice Beam
112 112 100.000000

Low Kick
Fling
16 17 94.117647

Leech Seed
SolarBeam
28 28 100.000000
Flash
27 28 96.428571
Energy Ball
28 28 100.000000
Grass Knot
28 28 100.000000

Growth
SolarBeam
23 23 100.000000
Flash
22 23 95.652174
Energy Ball
22 23 95.652174
Grass Knot
22 23 95.652174

Stun Spore
SolarBeam
18 18 100.000000
Flash
18 18 100.000000
Giga Drain
17 18 94.444444
Energy Ball
18 18 100.000000

Thunderbolt
Thunder
105 112 93.750000

Thunder
Thunderbolt
105 106 99.056604

Earthquake
Bulldoze
137 137 100.000000

Night Shade
Psychic
15 16 93.750000

Fire Blast
Flamethrower
77 77 100.000000
Incinerate
77 77 100.000000

Waterfall
Surf
56 56 100.000000
Ice Beam
56 56 100.000000
Blizzard
53 56 94.642857
Dive
55 56 98.214286

Rock Slide
Rock Tomb
148 149 99.328859

Belly Drum
Brick Break
15 16 93.750000
Fling
16 16 100.000000
Focus Blast
15 16 93.750000

Outrage
Rock Slide
16 17 94.117647
Rock Tomb
16 17 94.117647

Giga Drain
SolarBeam
29 32 90.625000

Spark
Thunderbolt
14 15 93.333333
Thunder Wave
14 15 93.333333
Thunder
14 15 93.333333
Flash
14 15 93.333333

Synthesis
Swords Dance
20 22 90.909091
SolarBeam
22 22 100.000000
Flash
21 22 95.454545
Energy Ball
22 22 100.000000
Grass Knot
22 22 100.000000

Stockpile
Spit Up
23 25 92.000000
Swallow
24 25 96.000000

Heat Wave
Flamethrower
15 15 100.000000
SolarBeam
15 15 100.000000
Fire Blast
15 15 100.000000
Will-O-Wisp
15 15 100.000000
Overheat
14 15 93.333333
Flame Charge
14 15 93.333333
Incinerate
15 15 100.000000

Focus Punch
Brick Break
20 21 95.238095
Fling
21 21 100.000000
Focus Blast
20 21 95.238095

Nature Power
SolarBeam
14 15 93.333333

Ingrain
SolarBeam
18 19 94.736842
Energy Ball
18 19 94.736842
Grass Knot
18 19 94.736842

Superpower
Rock Slide
18 20 90.000000
Rock Tomb
18 20 90.000000
Fling
18 20 90.000000

Brick Break
Fling
120 133 90.225564

Hyper Voice
Echoed Voice
16 16 100.000000

Overheat
Flamethrower
34 36 94.444444
Fire Blast
33 36 91.666667
Incinerate
33 36 91.666667

Muddy Water
Surf
19 19 100.000000
Scald
18 19 94.736842

Dragon Claw
Hone Claws
29 30 96.666667

Bulk Up
Rock Slide
36 39 92.307692
Brick Break
38 39 97.435897
Rock Tomb
36 39 92.307692
Focus Blast
36 39 92.307692

Calm Mind
Psych Up
76 84 90.476190

Roost
Aerial Ace
26 27 96.296296

Hammer Arm
Earthquake
23 25 92.000000
Rock Slide
23 25 92.000000
Brick Break
25 25 100.000000
Rock Tomb
23 25 92.000000
Fling
24 25 96.000000
Focus Blast
23 25 92.000000
Bulldoze
23 25 92.000000

Healing Wish
Safeguard
15 16 93.750000
Grass Knot
15 16 93.750000

Close Combat
Retaliate
22 23 95.652174
Work Up
21 23 91.304348

Dark Pulse
Payback
17 18 94.444444

Aqua Tail
Surf
25 26 96.153846
Ice Beam
24 26 92.307692
Dive
24 26 92.307692

Seed Bomb
Leech Seed
15 16 93.750000
SolarBeam
16 16 100.000000
Flash
15 16 93.750000
Energy Ball
16 16 100.000000
Grass Knot
16 16 100.000000

Air Slash
Aerial Ace
27 28 96.428571

Bug Buzz
Aerial Ace
19 21 90.476190
Struggle Bug
21 21 100.000000

Focus Blast
Fling
116 127 91.338583

Earth Power
Earthquake
25 26 96.153846
Rock Slide
24 26 92.307692
Rock Tomb
24 26 92.307692
Bulldoze
25 26 96.153846

Ice Shard
Ice Beam
14 15 93.333333
Blizzard
14 15 93.333333
Hail
14 15 93.333333

Trick Room
Psychic
50 54 92.592593
Dream Eater
49 54 90.740741
Flash
51 54 94.444444
Psych Up
52 54 96.296296
Shadow Ball
49 54 90.740741

Discharge
Thunderbolt
24 24 100.000000
Thunder Wave
24 24 100.000000
Thunder
24 24 100.000000
Charge Beam
22 24 91.666667
Volt Switch
22 24 91.666667

Leaf Storm
Swords Dance
18 20 90.000000
SolarBeam
20 20 100.000000
Flash
20 20 100.000000
Energy Ball
20 20 100.000000
Grass Knot
20 20 100.000000

Stone Edge
Rock Slide
94 102 92.156863
Rock Tomb
94 102 92.156863

Stealth Rock
Sandstorm
19 19 100.000000
Rock Tomb
18 19 94.736842
Rock Polish
18 19 94.736842

Aqua Jet
Surf
18 19 94.736842
Ice Beam
18 19 94.736842

Psyshock
Psychic
48 49 97.959184
Light Screen
47 49 95.918367
Dream Eater
46 49 93.877551
Flash
48 49 97.959184
Psych Up
49 49 100.000000
Shadow Ball
45 49 91.836735
Telekinesis
46 49 93.877551

Sludge Wave
Sludge Bomb
25 26 96.153846

Heavy Slam
Earthquake
16 16 100.000000
Rock Slide
15 16 93.750000
Rock Tomb
16 16 100.000000
Bulldoze
16 16 100.000000

Flame Charge
Flamethrower
27 28 96.428571
SolarBeam
26 28 92.857143
Fire Blast
26 28 92.857143
Will-O-Wisp
26 28 92.857143
Overheat
27 28 96.428571
Incinerate
26 28 92.857143

Stored Power
Shadow Ball
18 18 100.000000
Scald
Surf
56 59 94.915254
Ice Beam
55 59 93.220339

Volt Switch
Thunderbolt
25 27 92.592593
Thunder Wave
26 27 96.296296
Thunder
25 27 92.592593

Frost Breath
Ice Beam
17 17 100.000000
Blizzard
17 17 100.000000
Hail
17 17 100.000000

The following moves are learned by at least 15 fully-evolved Pokemon, but have no Move-Move requirements

Moves with no requirement

Swords Dance
Whirlwind
Body Slam
Thrash
Roar
Surf
Counter
Thunder Wave
Psychic
Hypnosis
Agility
Quick Attack
Recover
Confuse Ray
Barrier
Light Screen
Haze
Reflect
Amnesia
Curse
Reversal
Sludge Bomb
Spikes
Destiny Bond
Perish Song
Detect
Mean Look
Sleep Talk
Baton Pass
Encore
Pursuit
Rapid Spin
Iron Tail
Crunch
Mirror Coat
Shadow Ball
Fake Out
Will-O-Wisp
Memento
Taunt
Wish
Yawn
Knock Off
Endeavor
Refresh
Signal Beam
Extrasensory
Bullet Seed
Aerial Ace
Iron Defense
Block
Dragon Dance
Rock Blast
Gyro Ball
U-turn
Payback
Sucker Punch
Toxic Spikes
Rock Polish
Poison Jab
Night Slash
X-Scissor
Dragon Pulse
Energy Ball
Nasty Plot
Shadow Claw
Thunder Fang
Ice Fang
Fire Fang
Zen Headbutt
Flash Cannon
Draco Meteor
Iron Head
Grass Knot
Charge Beam
Hone Claws
Acrobatics
Dragon Tail
Work Up
Wild Charge

The following moves are learned by fewer than 15 fully-evolved Pokemon. They may need further analysis.

Rare Moves

Mega Kick
Jump Kick
Drill Peck
Seismic Toss
Sleep Powder
Petal Dance
Meditate
Softboiled
Hi Jump Kick
Glare
Lovely Kiss
Spore
Acid Armor
Crabhammer
Bonemerang
Sharpen
Tri Attack
Super Fang
Spider Web
Mach Punch
Bone Rush
Milk Drink
Heal Bell
Pain Split
Megahorn
Morning Sun
Moonlight
Cross Chop
ExtremeSpeed
Trick
Magic Coat
Tail Glow
Teeter Dance
Blaze Kick
Slack Off
Eruption
Meteor Mash
Weather Ball
Water Spout
Cosmic Power
Shadow Punch
Sky Uppercut
Icicle Spear
Howl
Bounce
Volt Tackle
Leaf Blade
Gravity
Aromatherapy
Psycho Shift
Magnet Rise
Flare Blitz
Aura Sphere
Dragon Rush
Drain Punch
Vacuum Wave
Switcheroo
Brave Bird
Bullet Punch
Avalanche
Shadow Sneak
Lava Plume
Power Whip
Cross Poison
Gunk Shot
Wood Hammer
Attack Order
Defend Order
Heal Order
Head Smash
Autotomize
Storm Throw
Quiver Dance
Electro BallCoil
Acid Spray
Foul Play
Clear Smog
Shell Smash
Shift Gear
Circle Throw
Drill Run
Dual Chop
Horn Leech
Razor Shell
Heat Crash
Cotton Guard
Night Daze
Tail Slap
Hurricane
Head Charge
Gear Grind
Icicle Crash

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Something about those numbers seems off, particularly this section:

Heat Wave
Flamethrower
15 15 100.000000
SolarBeam
15 15 100.000000
Fire Blast
15 15 100.000000
Will-O-Wisp
15 15 100.000000
Overheat
14 15 93.333333
Flame Charge
14 15 93.333333
Incinerate
15 15 100.000000

You're telling me that fully evolved Pokemon with Heat Wave get all of these moves? I'm really worried about the 100% correlations, because I know Zapdos gets Heat Wave without any of Will-O-Wisp, Flamethrower, Fire Blast, etc. It's possible that your explanation of what these means is backwards, though, and that things with the moves below require the top move?

 

[petrie911]

It's actually pretty simple. Zapdos only gets Heat Wave through a gen 4 tutor. This list only includes gen 5 methods of learning moves, since gen 4 methods are unavailable to gen 5 Pokemon.

EDIT: Type-Move requirements using only fully-evolved Pokemon and including 4th gen learning methods. The results are rather interesting, though we might want to cut out the Endure occurences. Cutoff for inclusion in the list is 90%.

Type-Move with 4th gen

Normal
Work Up
47 51 92.156863

Fighting
Focus Blast
24 25 96.000000
Stone Edge
23 25 92.000000
Work Up
25 25 100.000000

Flying
Aerial Ace
47 51 92.156863

Poison
Sludge Bomb
25 25 100.000000
Endure
23 25 92.000000
Venoshock
25 25 100.000000

Ground
Earthquake
28 28 100.000000
Rock Slide
28 28 100.000000
Mud-Slap
26 28 92.857143
Rock Tomb
28 28 100.000000
Earth Power
26 28 92.857143
Stone Edge
26 28 92.857143
Bulldoze
28 28 100.000000

Rock
Earthquake
23 25 92.000000
Rock Slide
25 25 100.000000
Sandstorm
25 25 100.000000
Rock Tomb
25 25 100.000000
Rock Polish
25 25 100.000000
Stone Edge
25 25 100.000000
Smack Down
24 25 96.000000
Bulldoze
23 25 92.000000

Bug
Endure
30 32 93.750000
Bug Bite
30 32 93.750000
Struggle Bug
32 32 100.000000

Ghost
Dream Eater
14 15 93.333333
Shadow Ball
15 15 100.000000
Telekinesis
14 15 93.333333

Steel

Fire
Flamethrower
25 25 100.000000
SolarBeam
24 25 96.000000
Fire Blast
25 25 100.000000
Will-O-Wisp
25 25 100.000000
Overheat
24 25 96.000000
Flame Charge
24 25 96.000000
Incinerate
25 25 100.000000

Water
Surf
58 58 100.000000
Ice Beam
56 58 96.551724
Blizzard
54 58 93.103448
Hail
55 58 94.827586
Dive
54 58 93.103448
Water Pulse
55 58 94.827586
Scald
53 58 91.379310

Grass
SolarBeam
36 36 100.000000
Flash
35 36 97.222222
Energy Ball
36 36 100.000000
Grass Knot
36 36 100.000000

Electric
Thunderbolt
22 22 100.000000
Thunder Wave
22 22 100.000000
Thunder
22 22 100.000000
Flash
21 22 95.454545
Discharge
20 22 90.909091
Charge Beam
21 22 95.454545
Volt Switch
21 22 95.454545

Psychic
Psychic
41 43 95.348837
Light Screen
41 43 95.348837
Dream Eater
39 43 90.697674
Flash
41 43 95.348837
Psych Up
41 43 95.348837
Shadow Ball
39 43 90.697674
Psyshock
40 43 93.023256
Telekinesis
40 43 93.023256

Ice
Ice Beam
18 18 100.000000
Blizzard
18 18 100.000000
Icy Wind
18 18 100.000000
Hail
18 18 100.000000

Dragon
Outrage
18 18 100.000000
Draco Meteor
18 18 100.000000

Dark
Torment
21 23 91.304348
Taunt
21 23 91.304348
Payback
22 23 95.652174
Snarl
21 23 91.304348

 

[petrie911]

OK, Move-Move requirements, take 2. In this list, move X requires move Y if

A) More than 90% of fully-evolved Pokemon that can learn move X through any method can learn move Y through a 5th gen method.
B) More than 5 fully-evolved Pokemon can learn move X.

It should be noted that Smeargle was excluded from the fully-evolved Pokemon, as its ability to learn every move in the game skews the stats. Strength, Rain Dance, Sunny Day, and Rock Smash were also excluded, as they are found on a majority of fully-evolved Pokemon.

Move-Move requirements

Fire Punch
Fling
63 66 95.454545

Ice Punch
Fling
74 78 94.871795

ThunderPunch
Fling
76 80 95.000000

Mega Kick
Brick Break
65 68 95.588235
Fling
66 68 97.058824

Jump Kick
Retaliate
5 5 100.000000
Work Up
5 5 100.000000

Flamethrower
Incinerate
78 85 91.764706

Hydro Pump
Surf
41 44 93.181818
Ice Beam
41 44 93.181818
Blizzard
41 44 93.181818
Hail
41 44 93.181818

Ice Beam
Blizzard
111 123 90.243902

Blizzard
Ice Beam
111 111 100.000000

Drill Peck
Peck
7 7 100.000000
Aerial Ace
7 7 100.000000
Pluck
7 7 100.000000

Low Kick
Brick Break
50 54 92.592593

Seismic Toss
Brick Break
70 75 93.333333
Fling
69 75 92.000000

Leech Seed
SolarBeam
29 29 100.000000
Flash
28 29 96.551724
Energy Ball
29 29 100.000000
Grass Knot
29 29 100.000000

Growth
SolarBeam
22 22 100.000000
Flash
21 22 95.454545
Energy Ball
21 22 95.454545
Grass Knot
21 22 95.454545

Stun Spore
SolarBeam
17 17 100.000000
Flash
17 17 100.000000
Giga Drain
16 17 94.117647
Energy Ball
17 17 100.000000

Sleep Powder
SolarBeam
12 12 100.000000
Stun Spore
11 12 91.666667
Flash
12 12 100.000000
Giga Drain
11 12 91.666667
Energy Ball
12 12 100.000000

Petal Dance
SolarBeam
9 10 90.000000
Flash
9 10 90.000000
Sweet Scent
9 10 90.000000
Energy Ball
9 10 90.000000
Grass Knot
9 10 90.000000

Thunderbolt
Thunder
104 111 93.693694

Thunder
Thunderbolt
104 105 99.047619

Earthquake
Bulldoze
136 136 100.000000

Meditate
Brick Break
10 10 100.000000
Fling
10 10 100.000000
Focus Blast
10 10 100.000000

Night Shade
Psychic
16 17 94.117647

Fire Blast
Flamethrower
76 76 100.000000
Incinerate
76 76 100.000000

Waterfall
Surf
55 55 100.000000
Ice Beam
55 55 100.000000
Blizzard
52 55 94.545455
Dive
54 55 98.181818

Hi Jump Kick
Rock Slide
8 8 100.000000
Brick Break
8 8 100.000000
Bulk Up
8 8 100.000000
Low Sweep
8 8 100.000000
Work Up
8 8 100.000000

Rock Slide
Rock Tomb
147 148 99.324324

Mach Punch
Brick Break
8 8 100.000000

Belly Drum
Brick Break
15 16 93.750000
Fling
16 16 100.000000
Focus Blast
15 16 93.750000

Outrage
Bulldoze
45 49 91.836735

Spark
Thunderbolt
13 14 92.857143
Thunder Wave
13 14 92.857143
Thunder
13 14 92.857143
Flash
13 14 92.857143

Synthesis
Swords Dance
28 31 90.322581
SolarBeam
31 31 100.000000
Flash
30 31 96.774194
Energy Ball
31 31 100.000000
Grass Knot
31 31 100.000000

Moonlight
Flash
11 11 100.000000

Cross Chop
Brick Break
9 9 100.000000
Fling
9 9 100.000000
Focus Blast
9 9 100.000000

Stockpile
Spit Up
22 24 91.666667
Swallow
23 24 95.833333

Focus Punch
Brick Break
90 93 96.774194
Fling
92 93 98.924731

Nature Power
SolarBeam
13 14 92.857143

Trick
Dream Eater
46 51 90.196078
Flash
48 51 94.117647
Psych Up
48 51 94.117647
Shadow Ball
50 51 98.039216

Ingrain
SolarBeam
17 18 94.444444
Energy Ball
17 18 94.444444
Grass Knot
17 18 94.444444

Brick Break
Fling
119 132 90.151515

Eruption
Flamethrower
6 6 100.000000
SolarBeam
6 6 100.000000
Fire Blast
6 6 100.000000
Overheat
6 6 100.000000
Lava Plume
6 6 100.000000
Incinerate
6 6 100.000000
Bulldoze
6 6 100.000000

Teeter Dance
Flash
10 11 90.909091

Slack Off
Earthquake
5 5 100.000000
Bulldoze
5 5 100.000000

Hyper Voice
Echoed Voice
15 15 100.000000

Weather Ball
Flash
10 11 90.909091

Aromatherapy
SolarBeam
11 11 100.000000
Flash
11 11 100.000000
Grass Knot
11 11 100.000000

Overheat
Flamethrower
33 35 94.285714
Fire Blast
32 35 91.428571
Incinerate
32 35 91.428571

Cosmic Power
Psychic
9 9 100.000000
Light Screen
9 9 100.000000
Reflect
9 9 100.000000
Dream Eater
9 9 100.000000
Flash
9 9 100.000000
Psych Up
9 9 100.000000
Psyshock
9 9 100.000000
Telekinesis
9 9 100.000000

Water Spout
Surf
5 5 100.000000
Ice Beam
5 5 100.000000
Blizzard
5 5 100.000000
Waterfall
5 5 100.000000
Dive
5 5 100.000000
Water Pulse
5 5 100.000000
Scald
5 5 100.000000

Sky Uppercut
Fling
5 5 100.000000
Focus Blast
5 5 100.000000
Low Sweep
5 5 100.000000
Work Up
5 5 100.000000

Muddy Water
Surf
18 18 100.000000
Scald
17 18 94.444444

Bullet Seed
SolarBeam
31 34 91.176471
Energy Ball
31 34 91.176471
Grass Knot
31 34 91.176471

Icicle Spear
Ice Beam
5 5 100.000000
Blizzard
5 5 100.000000
Hail
5 5 100.000000

Block
Bulldoze
42 46 91.304348

Howl
Roar
12 12 100.000000

Dragon Claw
Hone Claws
28 29 96.551724

Bulk Up
Rock Slide
36 39 92.307692
Brick Break
38 39 97.435897
Rock Tomb
36 39 92.307692
Focus Blast
36 39 92.307692

Calm Mind
Psych Up
75 83 90.361446

Leaf Blade
Swords Dance
10 10 100.000000
Cut
9 10 90.000000
Flash
9 10 90.000000
Grass Knot
9 10 90.000000

Roost
Aerial Ace
50 51 98.039216

Hammer Arm
Earthquake
22 24 91.666667
Rock Slide
22 24 91.666667
Brick Break
24 24 100.000000
Rock Tomb
22 24 91.666667
Fling
23 24 95.833333
Focus Blast
22 24 91.666667
Bulldoze
22 24 91.666667

Healing Wish
Safeguard
14 15 93.333333
Grass Knot
14 15 93.333333

Close Combat
Retaliate
21 22 95.454545
Work Up
20 22 90.909091

Psycho Shift
Psychic
9 9 100.000000
Dream Eater
9 9 100.000000
Psych Up
9 9 100.000000
Shadow Ball
9 9 100.000000

Flare Blitz
Flamethrower
13 13 100.000000
SolarBeam
13 13 100.000000
Fire Blast
13 13 100.000000
Will-O-Wisp
13 13 100.000000
Overheat
13 13 100.000000
Flame Charge
13 13 100.000000
Incinerate
13 13 100.000000

Dark Pulse
Payback
45 48 93.750000

Air Slash
Aerial Ace
26 28 92.857143

Bug Buzz
Aerial Ace
18 20 90.000000
Struggle Bug
20 20 100.000000

Dragon Pulse
Bulldoze
35 38 92.105263

Dragon Rush
Roar
9 9 100.000000
Earthquake
9 9 100.000000
Bulldoze
9 9 100.000000

Drain Punch
Fling
39 39 100.000000

Vacuum Wave
Rock Slide
16 17 94.117647
Brick Break
17 17 100.000000
Fling
16 17 94.117647
Work Up
16 17 94.117647

Focus Blast
Fling
115 126 91.269841

Brave Bird
Fly
12 13 92.307692
Aerial Ace
13 13 100.000000
Pluck
12 13 92.307692

Earth Power
Earthquake
55 60 91.666667
Rock Slide
54 60 90.000000
Rock Tomb
54 60 90.000000
Bulldoze
55 60 91.666667

Bullet Punch
Rock Slide
9 10 90.000000
Brick Break
10 10 100.000000

Avalanche
Ice Beam
48 50 96.000000
Blizzard
47 50 94.000000

Ice Shard
Ice Beam
13 14 92.857143
Blizzard
13 14 92.857143
Hail
13 14 92.857143

Shadow Sneak
Thief
11 12 91.666667
Shadow Ball
11 12 91.666667

Trick Room
Psychic
49 53 92.452830
Dream Eater
48 53 90.566038
Flash
50 53 94.339623
Psych Up
51 53 96.226415
Shadow Ball
48 53 90.566038

Discharge
Thunderbolt
23 23 100.000000
Thunder Wave
23 23 100.000000
Thunder
23 23 100.000000
Charge Beam
21 23 91.304348
Volt Switch
21 23 91.304348

Lava Plume
Flamethrower
9 9 100.000000
Fire Blast
9 9 100.000000
Overheat
9 9 100.000000
Incinerate
9 9 100.000000

Leaf Storm
SolarBeam
19 20 95.000000
Flash
20 20 100.000000
Energy Ball
19 20 95.000000
Grass Knot
19 20 95.000000

Power Whip
Swords Dance
6 6 100.000000
Cut
6 6 100.000000
SolarBeam
6 6 100.000000

Stone Edge
Rock Slide
93 101 92.079208
Rock Tomb
93 101 92.079208

Aqua Jet
Surf
17 18 94.444444
Ice Beam
17 18 94.444444

Head Smash
Earthquake
10 11 90.909091
Rock Slide
11 11 100.000000
Rock Tomb
11 11 100.000000
Stone Edge
11 11 100.000000
Bulldoze
10 11 90.909091

Psyshock
Psychic
47 48 97.916667
Light Screen
46 48 95.833333
Dream Eater
45 48 93.750000
Flash
47 48 97.916667
Psych Up
48 48 100.000000
Shadow Ball
44 48 91.666667
Telekinesis
45 48 93.750000

Sludge Wave
Sludge Bomb
24 25 96.000000

Quiver Dance
SolarBeam
8 8 100.000000

Heavy Slam
Earthquake
15 15 100.000000
Rock Slide
14 15 93.333333
Rock Tomb
15 15 100.000000
Bulldoze
15 15 100.000000

Electro Ball
Thunderbolt
13 13 100.000000
Thunder Wave
13 13 100.000000
Thunder
13 13 100.000000
Light Screen
12 13 92.307692
Flash
13 13 100.000000
Discharge
12 13 92.307692
Charge Beam
13 13 100.000000
Volt Switch
13 13 100.000000

Flame Charge
Flamethrower
26 27 96.296296
SolarBeam
25 27 92.592593
Fire Blast
25 27 92.592593
Will-O-Wisp
25 27 92.592593
Overheat
26 27 96.296296
Incinerate
25 27 92.592593

Acid Spray
Sludge Bomb
10 11 90.909091

Foul Play
Thief
10 10 100.000000
Shadow Ball
9 10 90.000000
Torment
9 10 90.000000
Payback
9 10 90.000000

Stored Power
Shadow Ball
17 17 100.000000

Scald
Surf
55 58 94.827586
Ice Beam
54 58 93.103448

Circle Throw
Fling
6 6 100.000000
Focus Blast
6 6 100.000000
Work Up
6 6 100.000000

Volt Switch
Thunderbolt
24 26 92.307692
Thunder Wave
25 26 96.153846
Thunder
24 26 92.307692

Frost Breath
Ice Beam
16 16 100.000000
Blizzard
16 16 100.000000
Hail
16 16 100.000000

The following moves have no move-move requirements.

No Requirement Moves

Swords Dance
Whirlwind
Body Slam
Thrash
Roar
Surf
Counter
Thunder Wave
Psychic
Hypnosis
Agility
Quick Attack
Recover
Confuse Ray
Barrier
Light Screen
Haze
Reflect
Amnesia
Glare
Acid Armor
Tri Attack
Super Fang
Curse
Reversal
Sludge Bomb
Spikes
Destiny Bond
Perish Song
Detect
Giga Drain
Mean Look
Sleep Talk
Heal Bell
Pain Split
Megahorn
Baton Pass
Encore
Pursuit
Rapid Spin
Iron Tail
Morning Sun
Crunch
Mirror Coat
ExtremeSpeed
Shadow Ball
Fake Out
Heat Wave
Will-O-Wisp
Memento
Taunt
Wish
Superpower
Magic Coat
Yawn
Knock Off
Endeavor
Refresh
Signal Beam
Extrasensory
Aerial Ace
Iron Defense
Bounce
Dragon Dance
Rock Blast
Gravity
Gyro Ball
U-turn
Payback
Sucker Punch
Toxic Spikes
Magnet Rise
Aura Sphere
Rock Polish
Poison Jab
Night Slash
Aqua Tail
Seed Bomb
X-Scissor
Energy Ball
Switcheroo
Nasty Plot
Shadow Claw
Thunder Fang
Ice Fang
Fire Fang
Zen Headbutt
Flash Cannon
Draco Meteor
Cross Poison
Gunk Shot
Iron Head
Stealth Rock
Grass Knot
Charge Beam
Wood Hammer
Hone Claws
Autotomize
Coil
Clear Smog
Shell Smash
Acrobatics
Dragon Tail
Work Up
Wild Charge
Cotton Guard
Hurricane

These moves are learned by fewer than 5 fully-evolved Pokemon.

Rare Moves

4 Pokemon
Blaze Kick
Shadow Punch

3 Pokemon
Softboiled
Spore
Bone Rush
Meteor Mash
Drill Run
Tail Slap
Icicle Crash

2 Pokemon
Crabhammer
Sharpen
Spider Web
Tail Glow
Dual Chop
Razor Shell

1 Pokemon (signature moves)
Bonemerang
Lovely Kiss
Milk Drink
Volt Tackle
Attack Order
Defend Order
Heal Order
Storm Throw
Shift Gear
Horn Leech
Heat Crash
Night Daze
Head Charge
Gear Grind

EDIT: And for completion, the proper 5th gen type-move requirements. A move is on this list if over 90% of Pokemon with that type learn the move through a 5th gen method.

5th gen Type-Move requirements

Normal
Rain Dance
48 51 94.117647
Sunny Day
50 51 98.039216
Work Up
47 51 92.156863

Fighting
Strength
25 25 100.000000
Rock Smash
25 25 100.000000
Focus Blast
24 25 96.000000
Stone Edge
23 25 92.000000
Work Up
25 25 100.000000

Flying
Aerial Ace
47 51 92.156863

Poison
Sludge Bomb
25 25 100.000000
Sunny Day
23 25 92.000000
Venoshock
25 25 100.000000

Ground
Strength
26 28 92.857143
Earthquake
28 28 100.000000
Rock Slide
28 28 100.000000
Rock Smash
27 28 96.428571
Rock Tomb
28 28 100.000000
Stone Edge
26 28 92.857143
Bulldoze
28 28 100.000000

Rock
Earthquake
23 25 92.000000
Rock Slide
25 25 100.000000
Sandstorm
25 25 100.000000
Rock Smash
23 25 92.000000
Rock Tomb
25 25 100.000000
Rock Polish
25 25 100.000000
Stone Edge
25 25 100.000000
Smack Down
24 25 96.000000
Bulldoze
23 25 92.000000

Bug
Struggle Bug
32 32 100.000000

Ghost
Dream Eater
14 15 93.333333
Shadow Ball
15 15 100.000000
Telekinesis
14 15 93.333333

Steel
Rock Smash
22 24 91.666667

Fire
Flamethrower
25 25 100.000000
SolarBeam
24 25 96.000000
Fire Blast
25 25 100.000000
Sunny Day
25 25 100.000000
Will-O-Wisp
25 25 100.000000
Overheat
24 25 96.000000
Flame Charge
24 25 96.000000
Incinerate
25 25 100.000000

Water
Surf
58 58 100.000000
Ice Beam
56 58 96.551724
Blizzard
54 58 93.103448
Rain Dance
58 58 100.000000
Hail
55 58 94.827586
Dive
54 58 93.103448
Scald
53 58 91.379310

Grass
SolarBeam
36 36 100.000000
Flash
35 36 97.222222
Sunny Day
35 36 97.222222
Energy Ball
36 36 100.000000
Grass Knot
36 36 100.000000

Electric
Thunderbolt
22 22 100.000000
Thunder Wave
22 22 100.000000
Thunder
22 22 100.000000
Flash
21 22 95.454545
Rain Dance
22 22 100.000000
Discharge
20 22 90.909091
Charge Beam
21 22 95.454545
Volt Switch
21 22 95.454545

Psychic
Psychic
41 43 95.348837
Light Screen
41 43 95.348837
Dream Eater
39 43 90.697674
Flash
41 43 95.348837
Psych Up
41 43 95.348837
Shadow Ball
39 43 90.697674
Psyshock
40 43 93.023256
Telekinesis
40 43 93.023256

Ice
Ice Beam
18 18 100.000000
Blizzard
18 18 100.000000
Rain Dance
18 18 100.000000
Hail
18 18 100.000000

Dragon
Draco Meteor
18 18 100.000000

Dark
Torment
21 23 91.304348
Taunt
21 23 91.304348
Payback
22 23 95.652174
Snarl
21 23 91.304348

 

[mudkipmaster]

Also, are there any new TMs that are like Toxic and Return, ie, everything gets them?

IIRC, no, everything remains the same... Again, I could be wrong...