I think the defensive set is honestly one of talonflame's better sets, as you can beat clefable, flame body lets you counter scizor, and you beat most of the things in A+ like cobalion, bisharp on a good day, celebi, etc, without having to worry about getting a free switch in. Not having gale wings doesnt take away from the fact that it is still quite bulky with a typing like that. i think it should go to B, but honestly the difference between B- and B is miniscule so it doesnt matter much.
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SM UU Viability Ranking Thread
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doesn't moltres outclass talon as a defensive bird?
The niche Talonflame has over Moltres is that it's a lot faster and has the ability to fire off a priority flying move.
Talonflame also has Swords Dance and Tail Wind so it can also offer some utility.
Yes and no. Moltres has better stats for a straight wall but Moltres' defensive sets have trouble pressuring (lol) your opponent, especially vs fatter teams. On the contrary, Talon has the freedom to run moves like SD and Taunt on its defensive sets that can help it to threaten these teams late in the game. Additionally, the added speed stops Talon from getting picked off by a ton of relevant uu pokemon like Latias, Keldeo, and many others. This makes talon more versatile overall and makes it less prone to bad matchups. Flame body is definitely better on bulky talon. You're very rarely at full hp with this set and the chance to burn critical pokemon like Scizor can be invaluable.
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Hi.
To those who post, please keep in mind the discussion points outlined. The hosts of this thread put a lot of effort into guiding this thread in the right direction, but it's up to us to make sure we keep on topic. Anyways, I want to give my thoughts on some of the discussion points mentioned, particularly the ones which I agree with most.
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to A-: Strongly Agree
Hippowdon isn't exactly bad, but it's just so passive that it lets in so many Pokemon that balanced teams really can't afford to let in for free. Its complete setup bait for some of the most threatening Pokemon in the tier, and really suffers 4MSS in that it wants to run Toxic to hit Aero and fat waters that will switch-in, but really can't due to how it needs Whirlwind because of how easily it's taken advantage of. CM Clefable, Hone Claws Aero, SD Scizor, SD Gliscor, NP Celebi, NP Togekiss, CM Slowbro, and CM Slowking are Pokemon that are extremely threatening to the balanced teams that Hippowdon fits on. Hippowdon literally gives these Pokemon free switches, which is something that these team's really can't afford. Yes Hippo can phaze all of them, but it has to take the initial hit and is forced to recover the turn after in most cases. This is another free turn in many situations for the opponent to bring in something that forces Hippowdon out. Overall this Pokemon is way to passive and lets in too many threatening Pokemon to justify its ranking in A. I feel like it should fall to B+ in all honesty due to how easily its taken advantage of but for now I'll agree with moving it down to A-.
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to B: Strongly Agree
I've laddered a lot and participated in a large amount of room tours, and this thing really has never put in work against me, even though I don't prepare for it at all. Thousand arrows and the 115 speed tier is cool and all, but it's just so weak even with a Choice Band to pick up the kills it needs to. And given its poor bulk, anything that can take a hit from it will just kill it in return. The dominance of Pokemon like Clefable and Togekiss don't help it at all. As a dragon dancer, it really needs it to get to +2 to actually kill anything, and it really doesn't have the turns to do so due to its poor bulk. Honestly, other dragon dancers like Haxorus are far stronger at +1 and give this set significant competition. Its CB set (imo it's only decent set) is good as a revenge killer but is still relatively easy for balance and bulky offensive teams to switch into (given that they usually run Clefable, bulky Scizor, Gliscor, etc.). Honestly, having a 'breaker' that can't break the majority of balance and has zero defensive utility (and little chance to even fire off attacks due to its bulk) makes it hard to justify using in a lot of cases. For these reasons this Pokemon does not compete with the rest of B+, and really needs to drop.
to B: Strongly Agree
This Pokemon is seriously underrated at this moment, perhaps because people are still only considering its Bulk Up and AV sets that were so good last generation. Its CB and even LO+4 attacks is insanely underrated as a breaker and sets itself apart from other fighting types like Keldeo and Bewear with its access to priority, and amazing coverage (ice punch, poison jab, knock off, etc.). This makes it an extremely effective balance breaker that can effectively lure in and heavily cripple Pokemon like Clefable with the appropriate coverage move. Plus, it provides more offensive teams a way to better check Sharpedo, which is significant given those builds' difficulty in handling it. Finally, people don't really prepare for Conkeldurr anymore (at least compared to last gen), so most teams rely on Pokemon like Clefable to check it. This means that a LO/CB set can easily exploit this by removing Clefable with Poison Jab, allowing a teammate who struggles in its presence to shine (i.e. Sharpedo).
This was the finals of a room tournament versus my friend Ov3r Ac3 who brought a Choice Band Conkeldurr and used it to great success versus my bulky offensive team by luring in my Togekiss and killing it with Ice Punch. I don't see Conkeldurr much on the ladder so I was not prepared to face this set. Thus, we can clearly see that more offensive Conkeldurr sets (CB and LO) have a niche at the moment as a breaker. For these reasons, in addition to the fact that its other sets (AV and Bulk Up) are still decent, make Conkeldurr an unpredictable threat that is seriously underrated and deserves to rise.
to A: Strongly Agree
I know that I made a post about Togekiss previously, but I have some more direct evidence to support its rise. I won't repeat what was in my previous post, (as what was mentioned there -- its ability to dismantle unprepared stall while giving any team good defensive utility -- is still true) but I want to draw attention to a set that has significant potential and can destroy unprepared teams with ease.
This a set which uses Normalium-Z in combination with Heal Bell and Encore. Z-Heal Bell restores Togekiss's HP to full in addition to removing status, and Z-Encore gives Togekiss +1 speed while locking the opponent into their previously used move. This set seems like a gimmick, but removes the need to run Roost (due to Z-Heal Bell) and allows it to destroy offensive teams when using Nasty Plot. Z-Encore gives it opportunities to setup Nasty Plot as well. The versatility of this set is shown in that it retains Togekiss's good matchup versus stall due to having Z-Heal Bell and Encore, but has the added benefit of serving as a win condition against more offensive teams with Z-Encore. In general, use Z-Heal Bell against fatter teams, and Z-Encore against more offensive teams.
Here are some good replays showcasing the effectiveness of this set:
Clearly there is a lot of potential in using Togekiss successfully in unconventional ways. This, plus the statements I made in my previous post regarding Togekiss, make Togekiss a good candidate to rise to A.
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Thanks for reading my thoughts. I'll add more to this post (or make a new post) to address the remaining discussion points.
To those who post, please keep in mind the discussion points outlined. The hosts of this thread put a lot of effort into guiding this thread in the right direction, but it's up to us to make sure we keep on topic. Anyways, I want to give my thoughts on some of the discussion points mentioned, particularly the ones which I agree with most.
-----------
Hippowdon isn't exactly bad, but it's just so passive that it lets in so many Pokemon that balanced teams really can't afford to let in for free. Its complete setup bait for some of the most threatening Pokemon in the tier, and really suffers 4MSS in that it wants to run Toxic to hit Aero and fat waters that will switch-in, but really can't due to how it needs Whirlwind because of how easily it's taken advantage of. CM Clefable, Hone Claws Aero, SD Scizor, SD Gliscor, NP Celebi, NP Togekiss, CM Slowbro, and CM Slowking are Pokemon that are extremely threatening to the balanced teams that Hippowdon fits on. Hippowdon literally gives these Pokemon free switches, which is something that these team's really can't afford. Yes Hippo can phaze all of them, but it has to take the initial hit and is forced to recover the turn after in most cases. This is another free turn in many situations for the opponent to bring in something that forces Hippowdon out. Overall this Pokemon is way to passive and lets in too many threatening Pokemon to justify its ranking in A. I feel like it should fall to B+ in all honesty due to how easily its taken advantage of but for now I'll agree with moving it down to A-.
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I've laddered a lot and participated in a large amount of room tours, and this thing really has never put in work against me, even though I don't prepare for it at all. Thousand arrows and the 115 speed tier is cool and all, but it's just so weak even with a Choice Band to pick up the kills it needs to. And given its poor bulk, anything that can take a hit from it will just kill it in return. The dominance of Pokemon like Clefable and Togekiss don't help it at all. As a dragon dancer, it really needs it to get to +2 to actually kill anything, and it really doesn't have the turns to do so due to its poor bulk. Honestly, other dragon dancers like Haxorus are far stronger at +1 and give this set significant competition. Its CB set (imo it's only decent set) is good as a revenge killer but is still relatively easy for balance and bulky offensive teams to switch into (given that they usually run Clefable, bulky Scizor, Gliscor, etc.). Honestly, having a 'breaker' that can't break the majority of balance and has zero defensive utility (and little chance to even fire off attacks due to its bulk) makes it hard to justify using in a lot of cases. For these reasons this Pokemon does not compete with the rest of B+, and really needs to drop.
This Pokemon is seriously underrated at this moment, perhaps because people are still only considering its Bulk Up and AV sets that were so good last generation. Its CB and even LO+4 attacks is insanely underrated as a breaker and sets itself apart from other fighting types like Keldeo and Bewear with its access to priority, and amazing coverage (ice punch, poison jab, knock off, etc.). This makes it an extremely effective balance breaker that can effectively lure in and heavily cripple Pokemon like Clefable with the appropriate coverage move. Plus, it provides more offensive teams a way to better check Sharpedo, which is significant given those builds' difficulty in handling it. Finally, people don't really prepare for Conkeldurr anymore (at least compared to last gen), so most teams rely on Pokemon like Clefable to check it. This means that a LO/CB set can easily exploit this by removing Clefable with Poison Jab, allowing a teammate who struggles in its presence to shine (i.e. Sharpedo).
This was the finals of a room tournament versus my friend Ov3r Ac3 who brought a Choice Band Conkeldurr and used it to great success versus my bulky offensive team by luring in my Togekiss and killing it with Ice Punch. I don't see Conkeldurr much on the ladder so I was not prepared to face this set. Thus, we can clearly see that more offensive Conkeldurr sets (CB and LO) have a niche at the moment as a breaker. For these reasons, in addition to the fact that its other sets (AV and Bulk Up) are still decent, make Conkeldurr an unpredictable threat that is seriously underrated and deserves to rise.
I know that I made a post about Togekiss previously, but I have some more direct evidence to support its rise. I won't repeat what was in my previous post, (as what was mentioned there -- its ability to dismantle unprepared stall while giving any team good defensive utility -- is still true) but I want to draw attention to a set that has significant potential and can destroy unprepared teams with ease.
Togekiss @ Normalium Z
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heal Bell
- Nasty Plot
- Air Slash
- Encore
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heal Bell
- Nasty Plot
- Air Slash
- Encore
This a set which uses Normalium-Z in combination with Heal Bell and Encore. Z-Heal Bell restores Togekiss's HP to full in addition to removing status, and Z-Encore gives Togekiss +1 speed while locking the opponent into their previously used move. This set seems like a gimmick, but removes the need to run Roost (due to Z-Heal Bell) and allows it to destroy offensive teams when using Nasty Plot. Z-Encore gives it opportunities to setup Nasty Plot as well. The versatility of this set is shown in that it retains Togekiss's good matchup versus stall due to having Z-Heal Bell and Encore, but has the added benefit of serving as a win condition against more offensive teams with Z-Encore. In general, use Z-Heal Bell against fatter teams, and Z-Encore against more offensive teams.
Here are some good replays showcasing the effectiveness of this set:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-549426924 --> Room Tournament battle, semi-finals against a competent and well-known player. I take advantage of Gliscor in this case to heavily damage his team with Togekiss.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-549284413 --> A ladder battle in the mid 1500s against a decent player. I preserved Togekiss late-game and took advantage of Gliscor to get +1 speed, from where I cleaned the rest of their team.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-549249126 --> This was against an opponent with ~88% GXE and was at ~1640 on the ladder when I faced him. Encore Togekiss prevents my team from losing to his CM Cresselia, and actually turns it into setup fodder for my Togekiss.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-549284413 --> A ladder battle in the mid 1500s against a decent player. I preserved Togekiss late-game and took advantage of Gliscor to get +1 speed, from where I cleaned the rest of their team.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-549249126 --> This was against an opponent with ~88% GXE and was at ~1640 on the ladder when I faced him. Encore Togekiss prevents my team from losing to his CM Cresselia, and actually turns it into setup fodder for my Togekiss.
Clearly there is a lot of potential in using Togekiss successfully in unconventional ways. This, plus the statements I made in my previous post regarding Togekiss, make Togekiss a good candidate to rise to A.
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Thanks for reading my thoughts. I'll add more to this post (or make a new post) to address the remaining discussion points.
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When you play or watch a high level UU game with Hydreigon on it, it just doesn't feel like an A Rank threat imo, it's a great mon but it just so happens that UU right now is full of threats that either outspeed it and KO it or set up on it/wallbreak shit because of the free turns it can provide to its foes.
Agreeing with hippo drop, it just gets worn down too quickly for a defensive mon and even against stuff Hippo is supposed to help handle like electrics/physical attackers, I feel like its always has just enough chip to not avoid the 2HKO on the switch, which is obnoxious (plus its a horrible knock-off switch-in because then it gets worn down even faster). Also whenever I use it I find that there's inevitably something on the other side that it basically guarantees a switch-in for, which is also a pain. Compared to the other stuff in A, it just opens too many holes (also I've almost always found Gliscor to be more useful but that may just be me).
FINITOOOO
lolgroudon
Hello all!
I am unfamiliar with the rankings, so I could use your help. I've been using Lucario in UU, and I feel it's really underrated right now. I went to this thread thinking it would at the very least be a B-level threat, but when I get here I noticed it was at C+. I have been using the Adamant Life Orb set to great success. After an SD, there is not much that wants to take a hit from this thing, and Extreme Speeds +2 priority allows it to hit what outspeeds it. Maybe I just don't see it, but what has changed for Lucario this gen? I definitely feel it needs a rise, but maybe ya'll can help me figure out where it needs to go.
Cheers, and let's all strive to enhance this great metagame.
I am unfamiliar with the rankings, so I could use your help. I've been using Lucario in UU, and I feel it's really underrated right now. I went to this thread thinking it would at the very least be a B-level threat, but when I get here I noticed it was at C+. I have been using the Adamant Life Orb set to great success. After an SD, there is not much that wants to take a hit from this thing, and Extreme Speeds +2 priority allows it to hit what outspeeds it. Maybe I just don't see it, but what has changed for Lucario this gen? I definitely feel it needs a rise, but maybe ya'll can help me figure out where it needs to go.
Cheers, and let's all strive to enhance this great metagame.
You shouldn't be running Adamant with Life Orb and Swords Dance, you want to make sure Lucario outspeeds as many things as possible because it doesn't have the bulk to afford being outsped.
The problem I have with Lucario is that it's pretty frail and can't find many switch in opportunities, hell, I've 2HKO'ed Lucarios with Psychic on Primarina, which is pretty bad considering it wasn't even Modest or had a boosting item and it's a non STAB move.
It also isn't that powerful once it has a few boosts up, sure it'll knock out not particularly bulking things with it's stabs, and E-Speed, while it can finish off weakened faster foes, really struggles to OHKO them from full, and they more often then not can OHKO, or at least cripple it back.
+2 252 Atk Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 170-200 (52.3 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 312-368 (111 - 130.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Krookodile: 187-220 (56.4 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(This is without Intimidate mind you)
252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 408-480 (145.1 - 170.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl-Mega: 89-105 (29.5 - 34.8%) -- 9.8% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 302-356 (107.4 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I know you could argue that these calcs don't include stuff like life orb, but really, you should be running sash on Lucario to guarantee a swords dance, and life orb really wears it down fast.
Not to mention the large amount of physical walls such as Gliscor and Hippo who can eat what ever Lucario throws at them for breakfast and kill it back.
It also suffers from other problems such as being weak to stuff like mach punch and generally not having a good time with bulky waters. It also lacks a good physical steel move, Metal Claw is too weak and Iron Tail has too high of a chance to miss.
It does run a nice special set, but then you don't get boosts to E-Speed, which force you to run weaker things like vacuum wave and bullet punch, and with the special set you lose the power of close combat. You could run Focus Blast, but unless you're luckier then O.J. Simpson in a court room you're going to miss at some point and your Lucario is gonna get taken out.
And I don't really agree with Lucario to B- because it really isn't up to par with things in it like Conk, Entei, Talonflame etc. and from personal use of Lucario in RU it isn't really ground breaking, it's good, but not that good.
In my opinion Lucario should stay C+ because of the things I've just mentioned. Now I'm quite new here, so I could be wrong about literally everything I've said here and should just shut my trap and go watch a Verlisify video or something, but this is just my two cents on the issue.
The problem I have with Lucario is that it's pretty frail and can't find many switch in opportunities, hell, I've 2HKO'ed Lucarios with Psychic on Primarina, which is pretty bad considering it wasn't even Modest or had a boosting item and it's a non STAB move.
It also isn't that powerful once it has a few boosts up, sure it'll knock out not particularly bulking things with it's stabs, and E-Speed, while it can finish off weakened faster foes, really struggles to OHKO them from full, and they more often then not can OHKO, or at least cripple it back.
+2 252 Atk Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 170-200 (52.3 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 312-368 (111 - 130.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Krookodile: 187-220 (56.4 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(This is without Intimidate mind you)
252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 408-480 (145.1 - 170.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl-Mega: 89-105 (29.5 - 34.8%) -- 9.8% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 302-356 (107.4 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I know you could argue that these calcs don't include stuff like life orb, but really, you should be running sash on Lucario to guarantee a swords dance, and life orb really wears it down fast.
Not to mention the large amount of physical walls such as Gliscor and Hippo who can eat what ever Lucario throws at them for breakfast and kill it back.
It also suffers from other problems such as being weak to stuff like mach punch and generally not having a good time with bulky waters. It also lacks a good physical steel move, Metal Claw is too weak and Iron Tail has too high of a chance to miss.
It does run a nice special set, but then you don't get boosts to E-Speed, which force you to run weaker things like vacuum wave and bullet punch, and with the special set you lose the power of close combat. You could run Focus Blast, but unless you're luckier then O.J. Simpson in a court room you're going to miss at some point and your Lucario is gonna get taken out.
And I don't really agree with Lucario to B- because it really isn't up to par with things in it like Conk, Entei, Talonflame etc. and from personal use of Lucario in RU it isn't really ground breaking, it's good, but not that good.
In my opinion Lucario should stay C+ because of the things I've just mentioned. Now I'm quite new here, so I could be wrong about literally everything I've said here and should just shut my trap and go watch a Verlisify video or something, but this is just my two cents on the issue.
You guys forget that Lucario picks and chooses what it wants to beat. You pretty much only need close combat on a physical set. I'm partial to ice punch on mine. But then you also have Nasty Plot which is equally dangerous since it actually beats Sharpedo 1v1, as well as literally every Dark in the tier due to stab Vacuum Wave being a force of nature against all the relevant offensive darks and Aura Sphere murdering the defensive. It also cleans house against almost every fairy in the tier, with Flash Cannon just ruining their day.
Physical, you have Ice Punch, Crunch, Earthquake, Iron Tail, Bullet Punch, Stone Edge, Zen Headbutt, even Poison Jab if you wanna beat Primarina. Special has Aura Sphere, Dark Pulse, Vacuum Wave, Psychic, and Focus Blast to just nuke.
Then there's lesser-known sets like Agility which due to Lucario having great offensive stats and stabs can actually blow through offense with either side, or even Band/Scarf Lucario for the real cheese.
It's nowhere near one-dimensional, and it can straight-up murder offense while picking and choosing what it beats. Infernape does it too, but with different stabs, so I can see Lucario being B- right now.
PS - Don't watch Verlisify.
Physical, you have Ice Punch, Crunch, Earthquake, Iron Tail, Bullet Punch, Stone Edge, Zen Headbutt, even Poison Jab if you wanna beat Primarina. Special has Aura Sphere, Dark Pulse, Vacuum Wave, Psychic, and Focus Blast to just nuke.
Then there's lesser-known sets like Agility which due to Lucario having great offensive stats and stabs can actually blow through offense with either side, or even Band/Scarf Lucario for the real cheese.
It's nowhere near one-dimensional, and it can straight-up murder offense while picking and choosing what it beats. Infernape does it too, but with different stabs, so I can see Lucario being B- right now.
PS - Don't watch Verlisify.
You could argue that it starts to develop 4SMS, which Lucario really suffers from, considering that 90% of sets have to have some sort of set up move, which is already 25% of the moveset gone, and at least one stab, which is half of the set already. And you really want to run stuff like Bullet Punch, Vaccum Wave or E-Speed, if you don't you lose to scarfs like Krok, Inferape, Fire Blast Hyderigon etc.
And while I agree it certainly is versatile it really comes back to the Hydreigon Anti-Ban arguement which basically is "Yah, it has the coverage moves to beat it's counters, but it has to run certain moves almost all the time, and it can't beat everything in the tier at once".
It also still doesn't change the fact that:
•It isn't that fast
•Has low bulk and struggles to switch in to stuff
•Really needs a boost to start OHKOing things, other wise it has to rely on life orb and super effective moves to kill things.
•Gets walled by stuff like Gliscor and Hippo on the physical side and stuff like Blissey and Tentacruel on the special side unless it runs coverage options which it may not have.
•Hates priority, and is weak to one of the most common forms of it.
While I probably wouldn't nominate it myself, if I saw Lucario rise to -B I probably wouldn't bat an eye.
The issue is that you're presuming Lucario should be solely used as a wall breaker. Which, don't get me wrong, against the right kinda teams it can be, especially if you don't know whether it's physical or special but it is ultimately a late game cleaner/sweeper.
The calcs you provided almost help it more than hinder it tbh, as it shows that Lucario is capable of taking big threats down after some prior damage. And it definitely should be running life orb or even something like Fightinium Z which makes it even more capable of doing its job. Tbh I don't actually think it's that great and is kinda overshadowed by Cobalion, Infernape, Bisharp and Keldeo in being either a breaker or a sweeper.
I mean you're not really right on a few things here. It is slow and has poor bulk, but it has priority to circumvent the poor speed. It is kinda weak without a boost, but it can still pack a punch (please use life orb on this). It isn't walled by Gliscor thanks to Ice Punch which is common coverage on physical sets. Even Hippowdon takes a significant chunk from a boosted Close Combat. On the special side of things, Blissey can't even handle it that well as a +2 Aura Sphere is a 2HKO. It doesn't even hate priority, I have no idea where you got that one from. Besides being resistant to Bullet Punch (Scizor), Sucker Punch (Bisharp), and Extreme Speed (Zydog), it can also use its own Extreme Speed to circumvent other priority users. At +2 Attack, it can OHKO Infernape with Extreme Speed which is perhaps the most common Mach Punch/Vacuum Wave user.
Obviously it has 4MSS, and can't address everything. But it has stupendous coverage and since it can viably go physical or special, and each set has a different set of checks, it can be tough to play around, especially if it hasn't revealed its set yet.
It appears that I don't know as much about Lucario as I've previously thought, so I've decided to quit talking about it because I lack sufficient knowledge to do so.
Thank you ready and HC for correcting me.
Thank you ready and HC for correcting me.
Basically, Lucario is so multifaceted in what it chooses to do. Infernape is a little better, true, because the speed makes up for the strength difference, but Lucario just can go ham in a different way entirely.
I'm not saying it's gotten better or worse, but I do think it doesn't belong in the tank where Shuckle and Chesnaught are.
I'm not saying it's gotten better or worse, but I do think it doesn't belong in the tank where Shuckle and Chesnaught are.
Can I talk about Sylveon for a sec?
Why is it D rank? wasn't it like A+ or A last gen?
I know Primarina and Clefable really kicked it out of place as best UU fairy type, but D just sounds too harsh, I expected it to be C at least.
Can someone explain what happened to Sylveon?
Also: Where the hell is Goodra
Why is it D rank? wasn't it like A+ or A last gen?
I know Primarina and Clefable really kicked it out of place as best UU fairy type, but D just sounds too harsh, I expected it to be C at least.
Can someone explain what happened to Sylveon?
Also: Where the hell is Goodra
You just mentioned the two things that happened.
Prim does specs better and clef does everything else better and yes by that large of a margin that its in D rank (Unrank it even)
Basically, any role Sylveon might attempt to perform by itself is completly outclassed by either Clefable, Togekiss and/or Primarina. That's what you get when the highest ranked OU Pokémon from the previous gen drops to UU.
You need to remember Sylveon was one of the few viable Fairies last gen.
You need to remember Sylveon was one of the few viable Fairies last gen.
Doesn't Sylveon's hypervoice do more because of it's ability?
it hits barely harder, but primarina has much better coverage options, typing, and design.
Ah, ok that makes much more sense.it hits barely harder, but primarina has much better coverage options, typing, and design.
As for Goodra, I know the UU meta is filled with threats such as the ones meationed above, but if it isn't UU then it must be RU, and I don't really see a pusedo legendary being balanced for RU
Actually, Goodra was slated to drop last gen and it only didn't because low ladder doesn't know what's bad. It's bad.
Also, most of this can go on the Np thread.
Also, most of this can go on the Np thread.
Being a psuedo legend is just a title and has nothing to do with how it fares in any tier
Hello all, I finally decided to join smogon proper instead of just lurking like I have been the since XY. So humor me a little and listen to my pointless ramblings about how I believe Rotom-Mow should go from C- to C rank.
Now what makes Mowtom standout next to something like Raikou or it's brother Heat, or U-turner like Scizor and Hydre is it's ability to grab momentum and rack up chip damage without caring to much hazard damage while also threatening common switch-ins with Trick or Leaf Storm. (I'll mostly be talking about Scarf in this post due to how important I believe a fast Trick is.)
Offensively Scarf Mowtom outspeeds everything in the tier that doesn't have a Scarf or boost, making it a good soft check for M-Aero and non-scarf Keldeo while also being able to chip away at fast threats like Gengar or Azelf, breaking potential sashes. Of course scarf Hydreigon is capable of doing all of this and more while avoiding spikes and T-spikes and not having to predict a ground type switch-in, and Raikou just straight up has better stats, which brings me to Mowtom's single saving grace. Trick.
With things like Clef, Defog or CM Latias and Amoonguss running around Trick is a valuable tool for removing your opponents more passive team members, a good example of this is Gliscor who can prevent Scarf Mowtom from Volt Switching and shrug off Leaf Storms:
252 SpA Rotom-Mow Leaf Storm vs. 244 HP / 200+ SpD Gliscor: 168-198 (47.7 - 56.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal.
However Tricking a Scarf onto Gliscor can greatly hamper it and while trading it Scarf for a Toxic Orb greatly cuts back on Mowtom's usefulness you can always trick it away once Gliscor has been disposed of.
Now despite all the praise I've been singing for the portable lawnmower I'm not trying to say it's better then Raikou or Hydre, it's coverage moves are practically nonexistent and it doesn't hit stuff all that hard without specs and it's ability switch into attacks is lackluster for a pivot:
252 SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Mow: 127-150 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Rotom-Mow Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 218-258 (72.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Rotom-Mow Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 278-330 (92.3 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
4 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Mow: 90-106 (37.3 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Rotom-Mow Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 176-210 (47 - 56.1%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Rotom-Mow Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 224-266 (59.8 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rotom-Mow: 130-154 (53.9 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rotom-Mow: 159-187 (65.9 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Rotom-Mow Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Aerodactyl-Mega: 264-312 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
On top of all of that Mowtom requires good predicting to be effective in a game if your opponent has a ground type alive, making it unreliable for the average player. (It's also bad vs Hyper Offense but I haven't encountered enough HO teams to go into great detail as to why aside from the obvious reasons like M-Sharpedo, priority users and the fact that it can rarely switch in.)
Anyway my main point is that Mowtom, while not even close to being as good as the majority of Volt-turn users in UU, still has a small niche as a difficult to deal with Volt Switcher thanks to Trick and Leaf Storm and I believe that in the current meta it stands above it's Fire type counter part, if nothing else.
Now what makes Mowtom standout next to something like Raikou or it's brother Heat, or U-turner like Scizor and Hydre is it's ability to grab momentum and rack up chip damage without caring to much hazard damage while also threatening common switch-ins with Trick or Leaf Storm. (I'll mostly be talking about Scarf in this post due to how important I believe a fast Trick is.)
Offensively Scarf Mowtom outspeeds everything in the tier that doesn't have a Scarf or boost, making it a good soft check for M-Aero and non-scarf Keldeo while also being able to chip away at fast threats like Gengar or Azelf, breaking potential sashes. Of course scarf Hydreigon is capable of doing all of this and more while avoiding spikes and T-spikes and not having to predict a ground type switch-in, and Raikou just straight up has better stats, which brings me to Mowtom's single saving grace. Trick.
With things like Clef, Defog or CM Latias and Amoonguss running around Trick is a valuable tool for removing your opponents more passive team members, a good example of this is Gliscor who can prevent Scarf Mowtom from Volt Switching and shrug off Leaf Storms:
252 SpA Rotom-Mow Leaf Storm vs. 244 HP / 200+ SpD Gliscor: 168-198 (47.7 - 56.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal.
However Tricking a Scarf onto Gliscor can greatly hamper it and while trading it Scarf for a Toxic Orb greatly cuts back on Mowtom's usefulness you can always trick it away once Gliscor has been disposed of.
Now despite all the praise I've been singing for the portable lawnmower I'm not trying to say it's better then Raikou or Hydre, it's coverage moves are practically nonexistent and it doesn't hit stuff all that hard without specs and it's ability switch into attacks is lackluster for a pivot:
252 SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Mow: 127-150 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Rotom-Mow Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 218-258 (72.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Rotom-Mow Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 278-330 (92.3 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
4 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Mow: 90-106 (37.3 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Rotom-Mow Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 176-210 (47 - 56.1%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Rotom-Mow Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 224-266 (59.8 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rotom-Mow: 130-154 (53.9 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rotom-Mow: 159-187 (65.9 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Rotom-Mow Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Aerodactyl-Mega: 264-312 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
On top of all of that Mowtom requires good predicting to be effective in a game if your opponent has a ground type alive, making it unreliable for the average player. (It's also bad vs Hyper Offense but I haven't encountered enough HO teams to go into great detail as to why aside from the obvious reasons like M-Sharpedo, priority users and the fact that it can rarely switch in.)
Anyway my main point is that Mowtom, while not even close to being as good as the majority of Volt-turn users in UU, still has a small niche as a difficult to deal with Volt Switcher thanks to Trick and Leaf Storm and I believe that in the current meta it stands above it's Fire type counter part, if nothing else.
fire rotom has the advantage of being a much better scizor check, as well as being a better clefable pivot when scouting. the two rotom forms also aren't really super comparable since they're like completely different types lol and will be considered based on what your team would need. rotom-mow's niche of grass type is also slightly overshadowed/done better by celebi, who can run u-turn and trick too i believe
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