Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

[Heatranator]

I've been using a snow team to get reqs (this is my second try, and it ain't looking good), and tera ice kyurem blizzard go brrrrrr.

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Kyurem Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Corviknight: 412-486 (103 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Kyurem Blizzard vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Walking Wake: 420-496 (122.8 - 145%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Kyurem Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 126-149 (41.4 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Kyurem Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 334-393 (62.5 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Kyurem Blizzard vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 210-248 (32.2 - 38%) -- 95.8% chance to 3HKO

Shit hits hard. Sometimes I just click that move and things vanish.

Okay, I have to share this match because my man decide to give me a choice scarf, and then a miss ruined his game. Lmao
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2057414468-md0ib26crzxa6ordadd6m29j3ripyxgpw

 

[Ctann]

Hello, I am not really a great Showdpwn player but I would like to voice my opinion about sth. I am sorry about the long post

I have seen some people say Gouging Fire needs his attack protoboost to reach his full potential but I very much disagree. Sun teams have always been my favorite playstyle ever since it debuted with Ninetales since fire types are favorite types ever. So I extensively tried to built many different sun teams, stole some sun teams I have seen on the ladder or rmt and experimented with them. And yeah Banded GF with speed boost is easily the best set so far. This is also a mon that is always worth it to tera fire to reach absurd number even with speed boosting ones

Set-up GF is kind of a waste in sun. It is way to slow momentum wise + you will need multiple boosts to outpace some offensive mons like other Valiant or Deo which just doesn't make it worth it( your sun turns are limited so you have to get a lot of value with every turn. I will say though, it is slightly better against protect stalling mons like water Gliscor but other then that CB is much better here since weather in general is about maximizing your turns. Outside sun , bulky setup is better due to having multiple opportunities to come(thanks to morning sun) and having a suprisingly good defensive typing that checks dangerous mons like Volc,Ghold or Gambit(outside tera). .

Speed boosting Scarf is funny. It does well against HO teams(can even suprise kill a speed Moon) but does worse the bulkier the team gets.

CB Attack boost hits like a nuke but it doesn't do as well against teams with focus on offense. They don't care if you can nuke a mon after all, they care more about mons outspeeding them and GF speed is kinda eh. And that is where CB speed boosting Gouging Fire comes in. With a choice band and the sun up, he basically starts with a +2 attack and +1 speed just by entering. Isn't that much better then having a +2,3 attack boost?

By adding speed, popular offensive checks to GF become fodder instead. Dragapult? Will become an actual ghost and pass on to the next world. Roaring Moon? What a beautiful grave that shines under the moon. Zamazenta? Gets 2HKO instead of 1HKO'd but you would have to take the hit anyway or deal with ID shit. There are other like Enarm, boosterless Treads or other setup mons at +1 that become an issue once GF is chipped if he were attack booster but are not an issue for speed boosters.

I will say, though, the attack boosting CB Tera Fire adamant GF does insane shit like OHKOing Ting-Lu and 2HKOing Dozo but being outsped by so many offensive threats is just not worth it. 3HKOing Dozo and 2HKO Lu is still good. Being forced to rest and getting chipped is basically a death sentence for Dozo especially if you have teammates that can pressure him. Here is one example: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2057041095-j58cb7tdkwwb4lj0r2gf1n2ihnpx3t7pw

This example here has many things that GF hates(a tera grass flash fire mon, Tyranitar, Iron valiant and Garchomp that gives free chip to you). Still managed to clean up afterall(although I dont like how I played against Ceruledge) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2057051586-rz2wvrwhmz0qnpkgmaehvvg6289lg65pw

And here is an example of GF vs an average OU team https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2055562914-bb0mte8s9wtm2yvwqw1na71ygs7ykuupw

Here is another irrelevant example for people who hate rain https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2056432270-l8aryswp5rpubg8m4j9np85dzumyuqmpw

Tl:dr: Speed Gouging Fire is one of the most oppressive mons in the tier right now. Not sure how much the tier can handle after rain falls off but I am having so much fun with this mon. You just get sun up, bring him in and mindlessly click a button. In fact NOT playing stupid is actually a hindrance since the opponent can counter offense you. Which is why I love this mon. Don't think I have felt this way since Chi-Yu. I still miss my CB Victini though.

I liked the supporting replays. It’s nice to see matchups that aren’t so one sided. Dondozo one doesn’t count, that was a horrible MU and opponent didn’t know how to do standard positioning play.

the rain one was funny. Losing games because you forget to scout coverage moves is the worst feeling.

even worse when you’re not thinking and heads being lazy on autopilot.. and then suddenly you’ve given a free turn to one of the S grade sweepers, or worse got deleted by some specific coverage move or tech.

PS: don’t fear rain, once you clear 1700s ELO it’s significantly less common and there’s a lot more balanced teams that need to be equipped to deal with the standard rain teams. It’s sunny days past 1700 and you can practice your game flow reading.

 

[Conflux123]

I feel like we should just test for a while what the metagame would look like without tera instead of just sitting here and arguing over data about people's different opinions. I think that while it would take a lot of work it could solve the tera problem for at least a while. I do personally think that tera is a bit unhealthy in singles though, since one tera can literally win someone a game, and it makes team-building a lot harder because you now have to account for every single possible tera type of a given mon in the team builder. In the past you could use something like a banded Scizor to check a fairy-type setup sweeper, now it just tera waters and laughs in your face.

 

[Komodo_Drogo]

I feel like we should just test for a while what the metagame would look like without tera instead of just sitting here and arguing over data about people's different opinions. I think that while it would take a lot of work it could solve the tera problem for at least a while. I do personally think that tera is a bit unhealthy in singles though, since one tera can literally win someone a game, and it makes team-building a lot harder because you now have to account for every single possible tera type of a given mon in the team builder. In the past you could use something like a banded Scizor to check a fairy-type setup sweeper, now it just tera waters and laughs in your face.

If I remember correctly, people had been trying tournaments and such without tera. I'm not sure what happened to them or if any are still in operation but there has been some experimentation. This was closer to the start of the generation and before any new additions such as dlc or home, so im not sure how they're faring currently.

 

[arnimacarni]

I feel like we should just test for a while what the metagame would look like without tera instead of just sitting here and arguing over data about people's different opinions. I think that while it would take a lot of work it could solve the tera problem for at least a while.

I don't know if you missed the pages and pages in past threads on why separate ladder or testing after the fact is not the way to go or if youre consciously bringing it up again when it's been dismissed, but the philosophy is to tier and ban based on the current meta. If you were to create a separate ladder for non-tera you would split the public and if you were to quickban tera in the current one you would be disingenuous.

 

[Conflux123]

I don't know if you missed the pages and pages in past threads on why separate ladder or testing after the fact is not the way to go or if youre consciously bringing it up again when it's been dismissed, but the philosophy is to tier and ban based on the current meta. If you were to create a separate ladder for non-tera you would split the public and if you were to quickban tera in the current one you would be disingenuous.

I meant to possibly like suspect test tera or something like a temporary test where tera is banned to see how much worse or better the emtagame would be, could you please tell me what the problem is with that? I don't see how it splits the public if it's just a temporary test, not a permanent addition as another ladder format.

 

[RudeLiees]

Why you should run a fairy type if you face me on ladder ?


RMT coming soon….

 

[dragonbr]

DaddyBuzzwole, I think you fail to appreciate what Setsusetsuna and I both stated, that people still playing SV OU after a year tend to be people who are able to tolerate Terastalization and those not aren't the type of people actively filling out surveys. The slight drop off in action support can be explained by people changing their minds, sure, but it can also be explained by people who don't like Tera not playing anymore. People who don't play the tier shouldn't fill out the survey after all. As Setsu said in the last suspect people who have no other SV presence turned up to vote.

i also think it's worth pointing out Tera is treated differently on the survey in the way the questions surrounding it are asked, in a way that in my opinion is less effective to glean the playerbase's opinion. Every other topic on the surveys, save for Quick Claw, has been put to a 1-5 scale, with this being a data point in a decision to suspect, wherein the players then after a test vote yes/no. However, Tera has instead for some reason been put to "if you were voting in the suspect test right now what would you vote" straw polls instead of even letting the playerbase express their opinion the way we do for every other survey point. The binary nature of the poll also discourages elaboration in the metagame discussion thread as typically people want to elaborate on 1-5 ratings. The fact that the survey question about Tera boils down to a simple yes no doesn't give people who are on the fence a space to express that opinion or be recognized as on the fence - yes on action no on "needs to be banned" is the closest analogue we had, which was on the last survey. I voted yes to both, mainly because the latter was a bullshit question, amounting to "is Tera a 5" or "are you certain right now that Tera should be banned." I would probably rate Tera a 4 on a survey but there has yet to have been a way for me to express that, despite Tera's so-called "survey inclusion." There also are a large body of players that don't immediately see a full ban as necessary, but want something to change have no idea in hell what the alternative would be, who also aren't really represented.

I understand that the data as it's been recorded and presented seems to favor no action, but I think given the methodology employed thus far and the bias surveys inherently show towards people who actively enjoy the tier suggests there's more to public opinion on Tera than immediately meets the eye

Agreed. From the players I’ve talked to, who have played S/V OU consistently and still are presently, are well over banning tera, they would much rather ban the crackhead mons like ghold that are unhealthy for the metagame, and have consistently shown to be incredibly unhealthy in ANY metagame, regardless of tera being allowed or not! Tera is relatively predictable on offensive mons, and if you haven’t learned how to control your resources properly, and scout for Tera/save your own Tera, you should learn. It’s been quite a while since S/V started, so the people who use the same ban tera arguments just seem unintuitive at this point.

like on one hand, people who stopped playing because of tera, accounts for the dropoff in survey results, it doesnt mean that tier enjoyment would increase with tera ban

SVOU is a weird metagame idk lol

 

[arnimacarni]

I meant to possibly like suspect test tera or something like a temporary test where tera is banned to see how much worse or better the emtagame would be, could you please tell me what the problem is with that? I don't see how it splits the public if it's just a temporary test, not a permanent addition as another ladder format.

You mean like whenever we suspect Kyurem we ban Kyurem on ladder to see if we like the meta without Kyurem? Oh wait, we never did that, we run Kyurem in the ladder while the suspect is going on because the tiering philosophy says that we tier based on the current state of the meta. If you want to get a flavour of a teraless OU you can participate in the OU room tours on Showdown, which a lot of times are teraless. But pre-banning something before the actual ban vote would be setting a very negative precedent, in that the people who want something banned would get it before the fact, and if the vote doesn't go through there'd be clamoring of "hey let's go back to that ladder, i preferred it that way". Things are done a certain way and I'm certain others can give more solid, more convincing and better written arguments on why this is the case, and if you don't agree then go on the policy review thread and explain why you feel like suspects should now be run a different way. My point is that it is disingenuous to act any different in regards to tera and that pre-banning it before the suspect or creating a different ladder is barely gonna sway anyone's opinion.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

DaddyBuzzwole, I think you fail to appreciate what Setsusetsuna and I both stated, that people still playing SV OU after a year tend to be people who are able to tolerate Terastalization and those not aren't the type of people actively filling out surveys. The slight drop off in action support can be explained by people changing their minds, sure, but it can also be explained by people who don't like Tera not playing anymore. People who don't play the tier shouldn't fill out the survey after all. As Setsu said in the last suspect people who have no other SV presence turned up to vote.

i also think it's worth pointing out Tera is treated differently on the survey in the way the questions surrounding it are asked, in a way that in my opinion is less effective to glean the playerbase's opinion. Every other topic on the surveys, save for Quick Claw, has been put to a 1-5 scale, with this being a data point in a decision to suspect, wherein the players then after a test vote yes/no. However, Tera has instead for some reason been put to "if you were voting in the suspect test right now what would you vote" straw polls instead of even letting the playerbase express their opinion the way we do for every other survey point. The binary nature of the poll also discourages elaboration in the metagame discussion thread as typically people want to elaborate on 1-5 ratings. The fact that the survey question about Tera boils down to a simple yes no doesn't give people who are on the fence a space to express that opinion or be recognized as on the fence - yes on action no on "needs to be banned" is the closest analogue we had, which was on the last survey. I voted yes to both, mainly because the latter was a bullshit question, amounting to "is Tera a 5" or "are you certain right now that Tera should be banned." I would probably rate Tera a 4 on a survey but there has yet to have been a way for me to express that, despite Tera's so-called "survey inclusion." There also are a large body of players that don't immediately see a full ban as necessary, but want something to change have no idea in hell what the alternative would be, who also aren't really represented.

I understand that the data as it's been recorded and presented seems to favor no action, but I think given the methodology employed thus far and the bias surveys inherently show towards people who actively enjoy the tier suggests there's more to public opinion on Tera than immediately meets the eye

I think we should do something to get people who stopped playing the tier to still engage with surveys as they can express what they do not like about the tier, since their opinion matters just as much

 

[EpicGuy321]

I think we should do something to get people who stopped playing the tier to still engage with surveys as they can express what they do not like about the tier, since their opinion matters just as much

People who stopped playing the tier won’t understand the current meta, so their opinion won’t matter as much

 

[BolTingBlazie]

People who stopped playing the tier won’t understand the current meta, so their opinion won’t matter as much

Yeah thinking about it a bit more, that kind of stuff better fits in its own survey, a survey specifically for people who stopped playing sv OU and what could get them to start engaging with the tier again could be interesting though as a separate survey

 

[ianlazerbeem]

I think we should do something to get people who stopped playing the tier to still engage with surveys as they can express what they do not like about the tier, since their opinion matters just as much

Im not sure i agree. For big tier warping topics like Tera i could see this but for votes on things like Pokémon, the point of surveys is to evaluate the metagame, how Can people who don't play it do that? For instance, how can someone who doesn't play OU evaluate Archaludon's place in the meta? No, I'd say people who don't play the tier's opinion overall don't matter as much. But those that would, and stopped because they didn't like it, should have a voice in relevant tier shaping topics if they can achieve reqs

 

[Blue glass]

I don't understand why we should take in consideration the opinions of people who don't even bother to play the tier anymore.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I think we should do something to get people who stopped playing the tier to still engage with surveys as they can express what they do not like about the tier, since their opinion matters just as much

this is like a president trying to get votes from people who have moved out of the country

 

[Floatstonemafia]

I don't understand why we should take in consideration the opinions of people who don't even bother to play the tier anymore.

Because otherwise you end up with a highly inbred unhealthy tier that people yes-man on because anyone who dislike the tier just stopped playing and only left the people who do like it. Who just lead the tier further down the rabbit hole alienating more and more people.

Which is by some complete coincidence an accurate description of the current state of OU.

It's a great plan for the people that are staying because they get more of what they want. It's awful for getting new people in the door or getting old people to come back.

 

[JunkoAJ]

Because otherwise you end up with a highly inbred unhealthy tier that people yes-man on because anyone who dislike the tier just stopped playing and only left the people who do like it. Who just lead the tier further down the rabbit hole alienating more and more people.

Which is by some complete coincidence an accurate description of the current OU state.

It's a great plan for the people that are staying. It's awful for getting new people in the door or getting old people to come back.

If they don't care to fill in the survey, comment on the forums or participate in suspect tests, I don't really think their opinion holds much weight, if they cared enough they would do any of these things instead of being disconnected from the meta and refusing to participate in something that could change that.

 

[Blue glass]

Because otherwise you end up with a highly inbred unhealthy tier that people yes-man on because anyone who dislike the tier just stopped playing and only left the people who do like it. Who just lead the tier further down the rabbit hole alienating more and more people.

Which is by some complete coincidence an accurate description of the current state of OU.

It's a great plan for the people that are staying because they get more of what they want. It's awful for getting new people in the door or getting old people to come back.

But people leaving because controversial decisions always happen. If Tera had been banned or if sleep clause had been maintained the same number of people would have left just for different reasons. I think we should listen to people who keep playing instead of people who can leave if something they don't approve happen because they can leave again.

If someone only played the tier until the Tera decision there is no guarantee they will enjoy and continue to play OU even if it's banned.

 

[Pierpat]

this is like a president trying to get votes from people who have moved out of the country

Just going to say, i don't think this post means what you wanted to mean. In many countries citezens who are living abroad are allowed to vote and are actually a decently relevant voting block sometimes, like both in my country (Italy) and in the USA, just to point out some examples.
So a presidente trying to get votes from emigrants happens and is not an absurd thing.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

So a presidente trying to get votes from emigrants happens and is not an absurd thing.

yes, but i've never seen one go out of their way to do it at the expense of the people who do live in the country. that's what people are proposing here—that the council go out of its way to make a separate survey for people who don't play the tier to try and win them back by overturning the playerbase's decisions

 

[arnimacarni]

yes, but i've never seen one go out of their way to do it at the expense of the people who do live in the country. that's what people are proposing here—that the council go out of its way to make a separate survey for people who don't play the tier to try and win them back by overturning the playerbase's decisions

I mean, not overturn but understanding the reasons why SV OU ain't everyone's cup of tea can't be bad, it's literally just a google forms away, and it might help patch some enjoyability and competitiveness issues

 

[KamenOH]

I mean, not overturn but understanding the reasons why SV OU ain't everyone's cup of tea can't be bad, it's literally just a google forms away, and it might help patch some enjoyability and competitiveness issues

>just a gooyle forms away
Ohohoho someone hasnt done the last two surveys. We've moved on to forum-based surveys. Unsure if guests can vote, but probably not.

 

[Just A Shroom God]

yes, but i've never seen one go out of their way to do it at the expense of the people who do live in the country. that's what people are proposing here—that the council go out of its way to make a separate survey for people who don't play the tier to try and win them back by overturning the playerbase's decisions

What is the expense we're suffering exactly? From my perspective, there's no downside to simply putting up a google form. And the point people are trying to make is that the people who stayed are naturally anti-tera. If we include all the people who left because of our decision to not ban tera, plus people whose opinions have shifted, we might have an anti-tera majority playerbase this time.

 

[Avira]

I think at this point, the council is more preoccupied with keeping the playerbase engaged. That's my take on it, and it should be everyone else's on the forum. However, what I personally do not like are agendas to make the council look skillful to the forums. I'm not going to expose my ELO rating but I can say it's high enough to experiment strategies and stay at that ELO for which I am satisfied with, might I also add. I'm not going to add bait responses to this message

There's no agenda to make the OU Council look skillful. Most people who can get reqs for a suspect test are those who can climb to the mid-1800s on ladder without much effort. That you're hiding your ELO rating shows that you're afraid of being judged for your lack of skill.

 

[YubelVT]

There's no agenda to make the OU Council look skillful. Most people who can get reqs for a suspect test are those who can climb to the mid-1800s on ladder without much effort. That you're hiding your ELO rating shows that you're afraid of being judged for your lack of skill.

That and thornton's YCCB tag makes me think that they're just REALLY committed to a bit