Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

[ant4456]

>Vocal minority starts making a bigger racket than usual
"GuYs It SeEmS lIkE wE sHoUlD lOoK aT tErA nOw!1!1! LoOk At AlL tHe DiScUsSiOn!"

You can't just "no u" the "non tera people should mostly bite the bullet" post. The issue isn't even whether the mechanic is balanced or not but the fact there literally is not the support you imagine to be there from either the unqualified OR qualified player pool. It isn't happening because people have weighed their opinion survey. after survey. after survey. And despite it all, support for action only goes down over time. The deflection for this, to me, seems to be "uhhh they left the meta I'm SURE more people hate it!" but like, if so, get them to vote on surveys. They're accessible and the thread name changes for it.

Tera action simply does not look to be in the cards unless there is a drastic change in public sentiment from players whose voices actually matter (qualified).

I love how posts like this act like anti-Tera is a super fringe aspect when literally by your fucking proof, a bit under 1/3rd of the playerbase wants Tera explicitly banned, as a statistic from the Qualified Playerbase.

Do you know how high of a number that is, for a tier where literally every dynamic is effected by that mechanic? Of the Qualified Players that actively make themselves play the tier, and thus are more biased to actually liking the tier than otherwise, still around 1/3rd want a complete ban on Tera.

And that is before the prior question! 46.4% support for tiering action from a qualified playerbasein the last survey. Are you crazy? Tera is absolutely extremely controversial amongst the Qualified Playerbase, and that is not even debatable.

Let me put it this way: If the onus for the status quo was the other way around, there would not be enough support to keep Terastilization in its entirety in OU.

And yes, admitting you want restrictions on Tera is absolutely anti Tera in a sense. You are admitting that Tera is a problem and needs changes. And I will stress, one more time: This is a biased statistic in the favor of pro-Tera. Because despite your snide comments, yes, people do stop playing a tier when they do not like it.

This is the players that were proven (at least a month ago) to have been keeping up with the tier, and qualified to have an opinion on it. SV OU qualified players find it controversial by around a 50/50 split, not just a "loud minority". And lest we forget that if like three votes went the other way around back then in the Terastilization Suspect, it would not have even survived three months without limitation.

Terastilization is the most divisive issue I have experienced while spectating and playing competitive Pokemon, because it is quite literally 50/50. It is a loud minority to dislike Tera, it is literally an even position.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I love how posts like this act like anti-Tera is a super fringe aspect when literally by your fucking proof, a bit under 1/3rd of the playerbase wants Tera explicitly banned, as a statistic from the Qualified Playerbase.

a bit over 1/3rd of americans believe in astrology. should i start making my decisions based on whether mercury is in retrograde or jupiter is in uranus or whatever bullshit they say?

Do you know how high of a number that is, for a tier where literally every dynamic is effected by that mechanic?

true, 1/3 is a pretty high number. you know what's higher? the 2/3 who don't want tera banned

And that is before the prior question! 46.4% support for tiering action from a qualified playerbasein the last survey. Are you crazy? Tera is absolutely extremely controversial amongst the Qualified Playerbase, and that is not even debatable.

all right, let's translate 46.4% to the 1-to-5 scale we use for literally every other aspect of the game besides tera. multiplying 46.4% by the scale's range of 4 (since it's not 0 to 5), then adding 1 (because the lowest rating is 1), we get 2.856, which isn't enough to even repeat on a survey. now technically that's assuming that all 46.4% of those people voted 5 and everyone else voted 1, which clearly wouldn't be the case—plenty of those 46.4% would vote less than 5 because they consider tera balanced or healthy in some capacity (which is why they want some action other than a ban), so the average would actually be lower. my theory is that the only reason we're using percentages at all is to make your side look less unpopular than it is because you'd cry otherwise

Let me put it this way: If the onus for the status quo was the other way around, there would not be enough support to keep Terastilization in its entirety in OU.

and if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a bike. we can talk about hypotheticals all day—i just did plenty of it the previous paragraph—but ultimately the way things are is how they are, and for better or for worse, those are the rules we have to play by

And I will stress, one more time: This is a biased statistic in the favor of pro-Tera. Because despite your snide comments, yes, people do stop playing a tier when they do not like it.

so what? if people are so weak-willed that they quit the tier forever just because they can't stand the funny hat mechanic, why should we be catering towards them instead of the people sticking around and lobbying for change?

Terastilization is the most divisive issue I have experienced while spectating and playing competitive Pokemon, because it is quite literally 50/50.

it is quite literally 53.6/46.4. even giving you the most generous concessions possible, you are still losing

It is a loud minority to dislike Tera,

the one correct thing in your post and you said it by accident

 

[SittinGamer]

Given that even the restriction camp, which is larger than the full ban camp, is not even 50% of qualified responders (and only barely over 50% among unqualified voters), I do not think it is disingenuous or bad faith framing to say the anti tera crowd is, definitionally, a minority right now.

Also, any tiering decision whatsoever can cause an exodus of players. You have no proof, and thus rely on "oh well the people that agree with me stopped playing but we should listen and tier based on their opinions." This is because you agree with them. People certainly left when Dynamax was banned, but I'm sure you wouldn't suggest we tier based on those people who left the tier's opinions on the matter.

 

[ant4456]

Given that even the restriction camp, which is larger than the full ban camp, is not even 50% of qualified responders (and only barely over 50% among unqualified voters), I do not think it is disingenuous or bad faith framing to say the anti tera crowd is, definitionally, a minority right now.

Also, any tiering decision whatsoever can cause an exodus of players. You have no proof, and thus rely on "oh well the people that agree with me stopped playing but we should listen and tier based on their opinions." This is because you agree with them. People certainly left when Dynamax was banned, but I'm sure you wouldn't suggest we tier based on those people who left the tier's opinions on the matter.

This is an awful response that makes no sense other than to appeal to people who already agree with you lol.

Restriction is anti Tera. Definitionally, objectively, it is acknowledging that Tera is an issue and should be nerfed in order for the tier to be better.

It is 1000% disingenuous to say 46% of Qualified is a "minority" because that is such a small difference, and you are obviously trying to paint a narrative where distaste for Tera is fringe. It is not.

The last paragraph is dumb because it doesn't have any relevance. Nothing I said was specific to Tera, I was saying why the status quo always has a bias towards itself. No shit.

Nothing you said contradicts what I said, you are just generalizing it to try and make it sound more tame when I am pointing out that at best there is a 50/50 split while in favor of the status quo.

Dynamax was an insane majority where 90% of the community agreed within a month that the mechanic needed to be outright banned. This is a 50/50 where half of the qualified playerbase thinks the core mechanic of the generation is broken, and needs a nerf or 30% an outright ban.

I'm not replying to this shit again bruh, you are being super disingenuous

 

[SittinGamer]

Contentious? Perhaps. But in a 55-45 (which is literally the best statistic you have on your side, which is under 54% of unqualified players wanting SOME restriction on tera, rather than an outright ban), the 45 is quite literally not the majority, my brother in christ. I'm pretty sure I even voted for restriction as an unqualified player (or maybe not because preview isn't considered an option anymore), but it is not the majority side. No level of warping the numbers that are there will make a world where 45 is not the smaller number compared to 55.

 

[RS25802580]

Any argument of "infrastructure" is ridiculous considering the fact that we literally run tiers with Suspect Test voter lists that range from a dozen to maybe two. That, and we have not even that long ago still, had SWSH OU, BDSP OU and NatDex OU (and lower tiers) running at the same time.

If there is a will there will be a way, it's that having an active competitor to OU in a very direct sense is not desirable to staff right now.

As someone who is a random user on this forum (like you), who has no contributor badges and doesn't have the time or energy to get any, I can tell you from common sense that there's absolutely hefty bureaucratic work in setting up a new tier. You need to find vetted and qualified players who are willing to join the council and have the time and interest to do work for free. How many genuinely qualified (tourney success or high ladder ranking) players are actually willing to do this? Who is gonna take the time to vet these people and organize them? Who is gonna get in contact with the site admins and have them set up the new tier and pull the statistics to vouch that it's worth their effort? Look at how many roadbumps UUBers went through to finally make it as a tier.

It's easy to sit on the sidelines and ask for this and that, but at the end of the day the work falls on the shoulders of the OU council, mods, or other folks in charge who are already doing a shit ton of work for free. None of them are interested because they deem it's not worth the cost involved. It's not some kind of conspiracy.

 

[658Greninja]

This debate has run its course and doesn’t look to be headed anywhere. I would advise moving on.

Tera and everything in-between can be discussed another time, but right now there are other things to talk about.

Since I finish my classes this week, I have two write-ups coming up. One on Kyurem and another on Archetypes.

 

[Bold School]

The surveys are so overblown. For instance, Gouging Fire was a surefire ban by survey standards and then it was not even closely voted ban in the suspect. The results don't mean half as much as some of you on here seem to think they do. The survey system is a useful tool to get a general, and by that I mean very general, consensus for how the community is feeling at the time. We shouldn't be making more out of it than it actually is. Don't take them too seriously.

Now I am firmly in the anti-Tera camp. I don't think that there is enough community support for suspecting it, but not because of the dang surveys. It's because of my observations of the community. Tera is a very polarizing yet popular mechanic. There is just a lot more support for it than in gen 8. I don't like the popularity contest, but that's how it is. Like 90% wanted to ban Dynamax. This set the precedent, but not enough to get rid of the bias for keeping a generational mechanic I guess.

People certainly left when Dynamax was banned, but I'm sure you wouldn't suggest we tier based on those people who left the tier's opinions on the matter.

Why not? They are players, too. There should at least be input just like with anything else. The point is to create the best tier, not to try and exclude others. Finch also mentioned how it is encouraged to keep generational mechanics because they bring more traffic to the site. People leave for all sorts of reasons, but if was determined that enough people left because of Tera then it would defeat the purpose. And even if it isn't enough for that, if the portion of the fanbase is significant enough then they should be heard.

The part that miffs me was that there were all these reasons why we should allegedly wait for a suspect Tera. Wait for home to drop. Wait for the DLC. Wait for the next DLC. Then we started hearing about how it was too late. And while we waited, I would bet my bottom dollar that a significant portion of people left because they were tired of dealing with Tera.

 

[SittinGamer]

discuss away to everyone who has strong feelings, have fun

This experiment lasted almost exactly 12 hours and I think that's pretty neat.

So as to not be an epic one liner, I've been checking the viability threads and am kind of liking the metal bug a lot. Scizor definitely can't do everything, but as a breaker it sure does put a lot of nice things into one package and a lack of Volc + reduction of Dirge/Tran will certainly help.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

This is an awful response that makes no sense other than to appeal to people who already agree with you lol.

what are we supposed to do, try to win you over? like that's ever gonna happen. we won this fight a long time ago and at this point we're just trying to drown out the yapping from the tattered remains of the pro-ban side

Restriction is anti Tera. Definitionally, objectively, it is acknowledging that Tera is an issue and should be nerfed in order for the tier to be better.

non-ban restriction also means that they want the mechanic to be preserved in some way. some of those people would rather nothing happen to tera if the only other option is a ban. are those people "anti-tera"?

It is 1000% disingenuous to say 46% of Qualified is a "minority" because that is such a small difference

and you are obviously trying to paint a narrative where distaste for Tera is fringe. It is not.

it is fringe, and getting more fringe by the day, to still be calling for action on tera. even most of the people who hate the mechanic have accepted that it's staying and moved on to more productive avenues of discussion. i think you would do best to follow their example

 

[Rekka's Backend]

In other news, here's a fun set I've been messing around to surprisingly great success.

Ursaluna is a surprisingly good bulky scrapper/status absorber. It's bulk with AV is extremely appreciated, and its movepools allow it to check select threats that would otherwise be nightmarish to deal with. I'm a big fan of Gunk Shot, allowing you to not only threaten average Tera Fairy users but also deal with more annoying grass types. It's a bit of a Tera Hog sometimes, but Tera Fighting with STAB Drain Punch for sustain is great. Pairs well with Rillaboom, with High Horsepower to supplement its longevity under Grassy Terrain (or to still deal Ground type dmg under it). Earthquake or Headlong is preferred, but you gotta make do with that monkey running around.

EV's could likely be specialized to take select hits and take out things back, but I haven't had the time to refine it. Despite trying it as a spur of a moment thing, it's surprised me with how well it feels to use.

 

[GummyRowlets]

In some news, since I don't want to talk about Tera, I've been experimenting with specs Valiant. I found the prospect of choice specs val in a meta with so many dragons to potentially have immense potential, and after some testing, it's decent. Moonblast with it's coverage of thunderbolt for corv, shadow/ knock for slowking, trick/ psyshock for clod/ blissey means it won't ever be missing out on a potential target. It does struggle since unlike Kyurem that can BS through it checks with Blizzard tera ice, choice specs (252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Kyurem Blizzard (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 206-243 (50.9 - 60.1%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery) iron Valiant does force you to accurately make the right move every turn and actually think. To circumvent this issue, I made a team having both rocks and spikes to punish Cheeky Switch that think they will come off safe. Iron valiant also doesn't do nearly as good as I once thought against dragons since most will just dd before you do anything and destroy you. Overall, a decent set that could be good but was disappointing in testing, and for the future, I would just stick with boostor calm mind.

 

[Avira]

I'm interested in seeing if Sinistcha's standing in the meta improves with Volcarona gone since Volcarona was one of its biggest counters aside from Blissey and Clodsire. Theoretically, bulky Grass-types and offensive Fairy-types are the biggest winners of a Volcarona ban, and Sinistcha was doing well on high ladder for a while.

 

[GummyRowlets]

I'm interested in seeing if Sinistcha's standing in the meta improves with Volcarona gone since Volcarona was one of its biggest counters aside from Blissey. Theoretically, bulky Grass-types and offensive Fairy-types are the biggest winner of a Volcarona ban.

I've already seen some decent success with it. It has a good niche on balances to check Ogerpon and can work with hazard stack balance teams really well. I should get around to using it soon.

 

[RS25802580]

In other news, here's a fun set I've been messing around to surprisingly great success.

Ursaluna is a surprisingly good bulk/status absorber. It's bulk with AV is extremely appreciated, and its movepools allow it to check select threats that would otherwise be nightmarish to deal with. I'm a big fan of Gunk Shot, allowing you to not only threaten average Tera Fairy users but also deal with more annoying grass types. It's a bit of a Tera Hog sometimes, but Tera Fighting with STAB Drain Punch for sustain is great. Pairs well with Rillaboom, with High Horsepower to supplement its longevity under Grassy Terrain (or to still deal Ground type dmg under it). Earthquake or Headlong is preferred, but you gotta make do with that monkey running around.

EV's could likely be specialized to take select hits and take out things back, but I haven't had the time to refine it. Despite trying it as a spur of a moment thing, it's surprised me with how well it feels to use.

That looks like a great set with a lot of potential. Ice punch may be a nice option to nuke Lando and Gliscor.

Headlong rush doesn't get a damage drop under grassy terrain so it's probably the ideal ground type STAB.

Alomomola could be an excellent partner for wish support.

 

[Rekka's Backend]

That looks like a great set with a lot of potential. Ice punch may be a nice option to nuke Lando and Gliscor.

Headlong rush doesn't get a damage drop under grassy terrain so it's probably the ideal ground type STAB.

Alomomola could be an excellent partner for wish support.

Why, you are exactly right! I was under the impression it was affected like Earth Quake was. This is what you get for not reading the wiki pages.

Outside of that, I experimented with Ice Punch--It felt very strong, but I've been running into a strange amount of Rain based teams so I had to opt for Thunder. Objectively better for Lando and Gilscor (the incoming toxic is free guts lol), and the rare Tusk stay in. If I end up swapping Meowscarda's Triple Axel I'll likely slot back in Ice Punch since the coverage is quite nice on one mon.

 

[Unscripted]

Spikes and Their Effect on the Metagame​

Spikes have been a contentious topic before in a couple generations, especially in BW as there is currently at least some discussion on whether the tier should have them at all. Spikes have also been discussed in the context of SV OU: when ceaseless edge was introduced to competitive play and as a primary reason for Gliscor's removal in the teal mask metagame. Despite this, I would like to discuss it again, not simple to retread existing conversations, but to imagine what sort of metagame would arise with its removal, and to speculate whether that would be a positive change for the tier. Firstly, I would like to mention that, like I assume most other people, feel at least partially negatively about the current OU metagame. There have been arguments presented that the metagame needs time to adapt, and we've seen some incredibly innovations already, as shown on full display in the gouging fire suspect and rising to top 5 usage once again. However, many players, including myself, also advocate for at least one ban and our primary struggle (although the suspect may have disproven this) has been finding a single aspect that players can rally behind to ban. We've seen middling support for bans on and . Even some that have fallen under popular discussion such as or may be considered banworthy by some. Tera also has seen revitalized discussion, no doubt driven by , famous matchup fish getting the axe. But what if there was something that wasn't a Pokemon that was putting immense pressure on teambuilding, item slots, and the flow of battle itself that could reasonably have action taken against it. I present to you: a dialogue on spikes

Spikes Users and Playstyles​

Spikes have come a long way since you were forced to run or to use them. Now, metagame spikers include with some occasional cameos from and . Notably, these are all good or fantastic pokemon in their own right, now able to exert an insane amount of pressure on switches to anything not named hatterene (or in Hisuian Samurott's case, literally everything). Of course, spikes has layers, but even the first is doing 1/8th of your hp, limiting the amount of switches you can make without the assistance of recovery moves, leftovers, magic guard, or heavy boots (or flying, but stealth rock was made to exist as a counter in generation 4). There is nothing inherently wrong with punishing switching, sometimes it can be incredibly boring to face a team with a defensive core that takes hundreds of turns to break or pivot based teams with multiple uturn and volt switch users. Spikes also forces a more aggressive pace as while and are not immediately threatening (and depending on your team, sometimes not at all), allowing them to get up more layers of spikes means you will have a much harder time playing around other threats on your team. Sure, you could switch to your own as they press spikes, but that just means they'll get a second and a third. It is much better to bring in :ogerpon wellrpsing: or to force it out after only getting a single layer up. Unfortunately, due to the lack of removal, (it's not just , I've done a deep dive into removers in a previous post of mine), spikes are often permanent, necessitating many fast teams or an overabundance of heavy duty boots. I don't like that has to run boots. It would love a whole plethora of other items (that it is often able to run on more offensive teams that limit the amount of switching they do) but on balance or stall (on older stall it was much more common) it simply can't afford the luxury of leftovers or booster energy. often functions in a similar manner. Certain teams use it as a win condition: soften up the team and then iron press to victory, but it has offensive utility outside of simply body press, life orb and choice band are two underexplored options at this time, you are limited to 4 switches before succumbing to stepping on legos-that is, given you aren't hit or chipped by anything in the mean time. Even tier king suffers the same fate, often getting far more value out of a good set of Timbs than leftovers, allowing it to switch in on resisted attacks more times in the average match. Tournament and ladder games alike have shown that games in SV OU are among the fastest of any generation, and I think the prevalence of spikes is an important factor as to why.

Solutions​

Obviously I could just shake my hand at the sky and cry about the lack of defog from game freak or the annoying nature of heavy duty boots spam, but I think its far more productive to provide solutions, if not simply to spur discussion. I see two paths forward (other than inaction). A full ban on spikes (and ceaseless edge) and limiting spikes to one layer. Given that we recently banned sleep, I'm going to assume the latter is simply not going to slide. Furthermore, I think a full spikes ban provides a more interesting avenue for discussion. I wanted to also predict some common complaints and address some issues that I thought of that a removal of spikes would cause: primarily, an increase in overall bulk and toughness of the tier. I will concede on this point, partially at least. Is it so bad that great tusk can now run leftovers and not worry about being pivoted on, forcing it to switch out again. However, I think breakers, specifically those with choice items or mandatory items like and will become better and will be more equipped to deal with the marginally bulkier teams. I also do not think that this will push these breakers into the broken status themselves. Sure, specs doesn't have to worry about taking 50% on switch, but it is still stealth rock weak. Other items like assault vest will also help to alleviate some of these issues as well, will be far better equipped to deal with freeze dry when it's not taking a second one just by switching in. On the topic of switching, which is another issue that I can forsee, I think these breakers will also benefit from a changed metagame. Waterpon being able to switch in multiple times even to get some chip is far more valuable when it's turns aren't so strictly limited by the near permeance of spikes. It also improves the usefulness of knock off, as right now it is used as a two step process to chip, needing hazards for the knock off on boots to be of value in the first place. Removing leftovers or other items is far more valuable and means that choosing who to switch to can still be impactful. I do not see stall becoming too dominant with a spikes ban, not even for the same reason as above but simply because well built teams have knock off absobers and will have one or at most two mons affected by spikes in the first place, meaning that a removal of them may actually help in stealth rock usage as it wont be 5 boots and a gliscor anymore. Finally, spikes are not the only hazard. We may see an increase in toxic spikes with the lowered importance on removal and boots and stealth rocks still exist, giving an opportunity to chip Pokemon in a less severe way than knocking a quarter of their health away.

Conclusions​

I think spikes are a tad bit annoying in the metagame. Would I even support a full spikes ban? That's a great question that I'm not sure I can answer at the moment. I wanted to start a discussion and figured extensively sharing my thoughts would be a great way to start that, rather than just a couple lines malding about spikes. Do you think running heavy duty boots Kingambit is healthy for the metagame? Did I forget something important about the removal of spikes? Will Big Stall become too strong? Let me know, I'd love for this to turn into an extended discussion on spikes even if nothing ultimately comes from it. Regardless, I hope that the metagame continues to improve over time.

 

[Heatranator]

:ogerpon wellrpsing:

Impressive how much you butchered that. (this is a joke, its alright to mispell things, I do it constantly).

I think spikes should be untouched, they have been a fundemental part of the tier and despite the hazard filled metagame, removing spikes I believe would make the metagame a lot more volatile. Hazards in general are used to deal with both offensive and defensive teams alike. Yes, there is still stealth rocks (toxic spikes is not widespread enough I believe to have an uptick in usage and said toxic spikers usually have other moves they want to use), but that is not nearly as impactful to the metagame to alleviate this issue. Spikes having consistent damage against anything that isn't a flying type means that there is always a level of consistency in checking things, everything grounded is going to take that damage (barring HDB of course).
In fact, I believe that offense would be the main benefactor of removing them, which is the opposite of what we want to do. Bulkier teams usually have a lot easier time removing hazards than faster paced teams. Said faster paced teams, mainly I'm talking about offense/BO teams not HO because they don't care about hazards as much though they also would benefit, would become a lot more problematic to deal with, as chipping their threats even by 12.5% on switchin or incentivising HDB does limit them quite a bit.
I also think that you are overselling how much bulkier teams would benefit, they would benefit but not to an extreme degree. AV glowking is already a great set, and would become even better, but normal Glowking even with lefties would become a lot worse against specs kyurem because now it has to be much more careful about its health, 1/16 hp per turn is not enough when you have 50-60% damage on earth power or 40-50% on ice beam. Thus, it would be forced into using AV a lot more, which is the opposite of what we want. Gouging would be able to run lefties sets more easily as it isn't being forced to morning sun as much. Sure, tusk can run lefties too but the damage is so high that getting back such small amounts of health is not enough, they prefer wearing HDB if said threats are also being worn down or not recovering. Waterpon's main issue is of course its hazard weakness, and that is severly reduced, it would most likely get banned.
TLDR, don't ban spikes, they help a lot more against offense and banning them would mean so many threats would need to get banned.

 

[658Greninja]

Spikes and Their Effect on the Metagame​

Spikes have been a contentious topic before in a couple generations, especially in BW as there is currently at least some discussion on whether the tier should have them at all. Spikes have also been discussed in the context of SV OU: when ceaseless edge was introduced to competitive play and as a primary reason for Gliscor's removal in the teal mask metagame. Despite this, I would like to discuss it again, not simple to retread existing conversations, but to imagine what sort of metagame would arise with its removal, and to speculate whether that would be a positive change for the tier. Firstly, I would like to mention that, like I assume most other people, feel at least partially negatively about the current OU metagame. There have been arguments presented that the metagame needs time to adapt, and we've seen some incredibly innovations already, as shown on full display in the gouging fire suspect and rising to top 5 usage once again. However, many players, including myself, also advocate for at least one ban and our primary struggle (although the suspect may have disproven this) has been finding a single aspect that players can rally behind to ban. We've seen middling support for bans on and . Even some that have fallen under popular discussion such as or may be considered banworthy by some. Tera also has seen revitalized discussion, no doubt driven by , famous matchup fish getting the axe. But what if there was something that wasn't a Pokemon that was putting immense pressure on teambuilding, item slots, and the flow of battle itself that could reasonably have action taken against it. I present to you: a dialogue on spikes

Spikes Users and Playstyles​

Spikes have come a long way since you were forced to run or to use them. Now, metagame spikers include with some occasional cameos from and . Notably, these are all good or fantastic pokemon in their own right, now able to exert an insane amount of pressure on switches to anything not named hatterene (or in Hisuian Samurott's case, literally everything). Of course, spikes has layers, but even the first is doing 1/8th of your hp, limiting the amount of switches you can make without the assistance of recovery moves, leftovers, magic guard, or heavy boots (or flying, but stealth rock was made to exist as a counter in generation 4). There is nothing inherently wrong with punishing switching, sometimes it can be incredibly boring to face a team with a defensive core that takes hundreds of turns to break or pivot based teams with multiple uturn and volt switch users. Spikes also forces a more aggressive pace as while and are not immediately threatening (and depending on your team, sometimes not at all), allowing them to get up more layers of spikes means you will have a much harder time playing around other threats on your team. Sure, you could switch to your own as they press spikes, but that just means they'll get a second and a third. It is much better to bring in :ogerpon wellrpsing: or to force it out after only getting a single layer up. Unfortunately, due to the lack of removal, (it's not just , I've done a deep dive into removers in a previous post of mine), spikes are often permanent, necessitating many fast teams or an overabundance of heavy duty boots. I don't like that has to run boots. It would love a whole plethora of other items (that it is often able to run on more offensive teams that limit the amount of switching they do) but on balance or stall (on older stall it was much more common) it simply can't afford the luxury of leftovers or booster energy. often functions in a similar manner. Certain teams use it as a win condition: soften up the team and then iron press to victory, but it has offensive utility outside of simply body press, life orb and choice band are two underexplored options at this time, you are limited to 4 switches before succumbing to stepping on legos-that is, given you aren't hit or chipped by anything in the mean time. Even tier king suffers the same fate, often getting far more value out of a good set of Timbs than leftovers, allowing it to switch in on resisted attacks more times in the average match. Tournament and ladder games alike have shown that games in SV OU are among the fastest of any generation, and I think the prevalence of spikes is an important factor as to why.

Solutions​

Obviously I could just shake my hand at the sky and cry about the lack of defog from game freak or the annoying nature of heavy duty boots spam, but I think its far more productive to provide solutions, if not simply to spur discussion. I see two paths forward (other than inaction). A full ban on spikes (and ceaseless edge) and limiting spikes to one layer. Given that we recently banned sleep, I'm going to assume the latter is simply not going to slide. Furthermore, I think a full spikes ban provides a more interesting avenue for discussion. I wanted to also predict some common complaints and address some issues that I thought of that a removal of spikes would cause: primarily, an increase in overall bulk and toughness of the tier. I will concede on this point, partially at least. Is it so bad that great tusk can now run leftovers and not worry about being pivoted on, forcing it to switch out again. However, I think breakers, specifically those with choice items or mandatory items like and will become better and will be more equipped to deal with the marginally bulkier teams. I also do not think that this will push these breakers into the broken status themselves. Sure, specs doesn't have to worry about taking 50% on switch, but it is still stealth rock weak. Other items like assault vest will also help to alleviate some of these issues as well, will be far better equipped to deal with freeze dry when it's not taking a second one just by switching in. On the topic of switching, which is another issue that I can forsee, I think these breakers will also benefit from a changed metagame. Waterpon being able to switch in multiple times even to get some chip is far more valuable when it's turns aren't so strictly limited by the near permeance of spikes. It also improves the usefulness of knock off, as right now it is used as a two step process to chip, needing hazards for the knock off on boots to be of value in the first place. Removing leftovers or other items is far more valuable and means that choosing who to switch to can still be impactful. I do not see stall becoming too dominant with a spikes ban, not even for the same reason as above but simply because well built teams have knock off absobers and will have one or at most two mons affected by spikes in the first place, meaning that a removal of them may actually help in stealth rock usage as it wont be 5 boots and a gliscor anymore. Finally, spikes are not the only hazard. We may see an increase in toxic spikes with the lowered importance on removal and boots and stealth rocks still exist, giving an opportunity to chip Pokemon in a less severe way than knocking a quarter of their health away.

Conclusions​

I think spikes are a tad bit annoying in the metagame. Would I even support a full spikes ban? That's a great question that I'm not sure I can answer at the moment. I wanted to start a discussion and figured extensively sharing my thoughts would be a great way to start that, rather than just a couple lines malding about spikes. Do you think running heavy duty boots Kingambit is healthy for the metagame? Did I forget something important about the removal of spikes? Will Big Stall become too strong? Let me know, I'd love for this to turn into an extended discussion on spikes even if nothing ultimately comes from it. Regardless, I hope that the metagame continues to improve over time.

Good post.

I’ve already stated that Spikes aren’t broken and even made a guide to dealing with Spikes a while back.

I do often give the impression that I don’t think Spikes have an impact in the tier even though I do recognize it with increased distribution of the move and decreased distribution of Defog. However the meta has adapted in more ways than running HO, Tusk, or Boots Spam. Many Bulky Offenses simply don’t run removal since these teams can input enough offensive pressure in a game to prevent the gameplan of many hazard stacking teams from taking effect.

While hazard control is limited, the options we do have are still good or even great.

Tusk doesn’t really mind running Boots. The main reason you run Boots is actually because of Webs, making your matchup against it easier. Tusk can threaten every common Spike setter with big damage except Skarm who imo is kinda shit and is free entry for Tusk’s teammates. With the meta slowing down and Gholds opting to run more bulk, Tusk can run bulkier spreads or Adamant which after a Bulk Up, guarantees a one-shot on Gliscor with Ice Spinner. Headlong Rush/Spinner/Knock is also annoying to switch into for bulkier teams, especially with the boost from Adamant.

These only fit on offense, but they’re on this list for technicality reasons.

Hatt shuts down every Spiker minus Samu who’s still threatened out by SE STAB Draining Kiss. I’d also highly encourage people to try AV Hatt. Its fantastic for role compressing hazard control, para spreader and a special sponge. AV has solid matchups into Hexpult, Darkrai, Kyurem, CM Prim, Deo-S. It even eats a MiR from Gholdengo letting you trade HP to get off a Nuzzle.

Cinderace is good into offensive builds incorporating hazards like Webs. Cinderace is not as good vs bulkier hazard stack, but the teams Cinderace is loaded on tend to have powerful breakers like Kyurem to break holes before they can replenish the hazards it Court Changes. Plus you can tech Tera Ice Blast which hits Gliscor and Pyro/U-Turn which hits most of the common Spikers.

Corviknight is quite underrated in this metagame. SpD Corv has great matchups into Darkrai, Deo-S, Rilla, SD Gliscor, Hatt, Grasspon, etc, being able to check them outright or U-Turn into something that threatens them offensively. PhysD variants are also not to shabby into Gambit or Roaring Moon. It’s also not bad as a Defogger. Corv 1v1s nearly every Spiker in the tier. Though when talking about Corv, we need to address Ghold. However there is a team building trick if you decide to run Corv.

Corv in general pairs well with wallbreakers due to its natural ability to bring them in safely, but the idea here is to punish Ghold for trying to block your Defog. Darkrai, Samu, and Hoopa are all threatening to Ghold and can break holes on its team. So what if Corv doesn’t remove the Spikes? Hoopa is gonna come in and remove a mon on the team. Samu is getting Spikes. Darkrai is breaking something.

 

[Duck Chris]

This weekend in Smogon Tournaments

in OU Spring Seasonal
The only OU tournament matches this weekend happened in loser's round 7 of the spring seasonal, the round of 48, meaning winners would advance to top 32 and loser's would finish a respectable 33rd place. For fun, here are all the games from Friday onward where Volcarona made an appearance.
Luirromen vs Magician - Replay
JJ09LIE vs Waci - Replay
VicBossMG vs mentalsoft - Replay
A Welcome Guest vs Career Ended - Replay
Rest in peace matchup moth, I doubt we will see you again this generation.

in World Cup of Pokemon
The rosters were submitted this weekend for World Cup Qualifiers and the pairings are already out. Check out the matches we will be seeing for the next two weeks.

in other OU Circuit Tours
The OU Stour Tour is now open for signups. This is a best of 3 tournament in the three most recent OUs, starting with SV. This gives circuit points and you can sign up here.

in Smogon Tour
This weekend was SM, with wrapped with nice wins from WelliOu, NoName6293, and fade. SV live tours return friday!

 

[Anchor9]

I come back to this thread defeated after attempting to get Volc reqs. I mourn my amazing ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. I blew starts of 17-0 on OUWW Destruction, a 14-0 start on OUWW Kingambit, and more I can’t remember. I probably played 150 battles across a dozen or so alts, so now I come to discuss my experiences from the 1400s-1500s:

First of all, why is everyone a addict?! Why?! WHY?!!! The amount of Glimmora leads I’ve had to face has been ridiculous.

I honestly didn’t find all that broken. Maybe it was because I spammed Sun and you cannot juke Choice Band Tera Fire GF with Tera whatever.

I also noticed an uptick of , which I expect to continue following the Volc ban, as it can perform a similar job as Volc with Proto-Speed and Fiery Dance fishes. On top of that it has better initial power.

I think is a broken. Gholdengo and Dragapult are the only thing saving this meta from utter destruction and its of terror. It has an absurd Speed tier and gets +1 Def to start out. It can Iron Defense up to get ridiculous power for Body Press, and you can’t Iron defense with Corv or Skarmory to beat it because it can Roar you out.
See this replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2111001374

These are just some random stuff I was thinking of and is kinda jumbled, but hope you enjoyed reading.

I also want to produce the true most powerful unboosted hit in OU, just gotta be a little…. lucky:

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Normal Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 500-600 (99.2 - 119%) -- approx. 87.5% chance to OHKO

 

[BobbyHill]

Happy Volc is gone, but HO still feels like it has a distinct advantage in the meta with Tera nits less screens oriented now but there are so many good breakers that can fit into HO archetypes it’s still possible to cheese past other playstyles. Maybe that’s always the way it was against HO though I’m relatively new. Meta overall still seems bit very rock-paper-scissors (although getting better) and not very welcoming/poor for improving your play/high skill ceiling as there is of “lose on preview” and a missed turn or some bad luck can totally turn a game because every turn holds such weight.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I also want to produce the true most powerful unboosted hit in OU, just gotta be a little…. lucky:

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Normal Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 500-600 (99.2 - 119%) -- approx. 87.5% chance to OHKO

the max roll technically outdamages sun band gouging's max roll by a tiny bit, true, but the most powerful unboosted hit is not even close:

252+ Atk Choice Band Galvanize Tera Electric Golem-Alola Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fighting Dondozo: 664-782 (131.7 - 155.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Soiramio3000]

a weird thing that I don't understand is why do I encounter double screens more often than I encounter alolan ninetails.

is this some low elo thing or it is happening on the higher elos too?

 

[Finchinator]

a weird thing that I don't understand is why do I encounter double screens more often than I encounter alolan ninetails.

is this some low elo thing or it is happening on the higher elos too?

Grimmsnarl is viable. Not reliant on a weather condition, has Prankster, and other utility like Parting Shot or Thunder Wave.