Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[Dreadfury]

What makes Mega TTar A- rank? It doesnt have any new moves from SM that it didnt have in ORAS and it gained multiple checks in tapu bulu, kartana, mega mawile, tapu fini, tapu lele. Plus, it comes at a huge cost of not being able to run mega mawile (more power), mega medicham (more power and more speed). On top of that, youre forfeiting what makes TTar so good as a trapper with the immediate buff from scarf or band

It's pretty good on Aurora Veil teams (a playstyle that is pretty much amazing no matter what tier you're in), it hits like a nuke from orbit even before boosts, and it's debateably one of the tier's best setup sweepers. With Veil and the Sandstorm boost on top of its amazing natural bulk, it can take an array of incredibly powerful hits, ranging from avoiding the 2HKO from Banded Zygarde's Thousand Arrows from full to taking under 70% from Scarf Keldeo's Secret Sword and Mega Alakazam's Focus Blast - the latter two of which should in theory be pretty good at revenge killing it even at +1 - and after a single Dragon Dance it is able to 2HKO literally everything in the tier except Magearna (assuming it isn't running EQ over Ice Punch, of course), and Mega TTar has enough bulk under these conditions to set up on Magearna regardless since it's hard-pressed to secure an OHKO or even a 2HKO with some sets.

Mega TTar packs enough power and coverage to demolish the entire tier if it sets up. And with its obscene bulk, amplified further by Veil support and its typing and ability, it can set up in the face of anything barring stuff like Mega Medicham and Mega Heracross, which can still OHKO it.

 

[Toshiro46]

What makes Mega TTar A- rank? It doesnt have any new moves from SM that it didnt have in ORAS and it gained multiple checks in tapu bulu, kartana, mega mawile, tapu fini, tapu lele. Plus, it comes at a huge cost of not being able to run mega mawile (more power), mega medicham (more power and more speed). On top of that, youre forfeiting what makes TTar so good as a trapper with the immediate buff from scarf or band

It's bulkier than Mega Metagross (and toxapex, for that matter) *and* has a higher Atk stat. Oh and it has Dragon Dance to raise that stupid Atk even higher and make up for its speed. Oh and it has sand stream to effectively give it a free Assault Vest for 5 turns. It also has great coverage options. All this makes it a mon that has an easy time getting to +1 or even +2 with DD once fighting-type moves are gone, and an even easier time sweeping from there. Also Lopunny isn't nearly as good this gen.

And then, as if that wasn't enough, Alolan Ninetails was introduced to give it dual screens in one move for 8 turns, thereby increasing its bulk to "fuck you" levels - 252 SpA Keldeo Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand with an ally's Aurora Veil: 222-264 (65.1 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

This mon is just plain ridiculous, and unlike in ORAS the meta is kinder to it and there's fewer megas that you'd want to choose over it - CharX is horrible right now, Mega Gyarados is nowhere to be seen, and Megagross is gone.

Mantine still needs to go to B+ that is all.

 

[Moutemoute]

Sorry buddy but I kinda disagree with you. Yeah of course Ash-Greninja is a huge threat in SM OU but you have forgotten one important detail : Greninja need to do a kill if it wants to transform and that makes a huge difference because without is Ash forme it don't hits that hard.

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 120-142 (29.7 - 35.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 93-111 (30.5 - 36.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 102-120 (29 - 34.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 127-151 (36 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery

As you can see, the damages are clearly not the same which meen that Greninja can not Wallbreak on his own before Battle Bond is activate. Tbh it need more support than the other regular S rank and should stay A+.

 

[Jordy]

Nominating Crawdaunt (C -> C+/B-)

This mon absolutely smacks stall in rain, if you can play around duggy well enough its a dead ass 6-0.

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Rain: 290-342 (87 - 102.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 674-794 (95.8 - 112.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos in Rain: 412-486 (107.5 - 126.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 248 HP / 116 Def Sableye-Mega in Rain: 382-450 (126 - 148.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex in Rain: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable in Rain: 448-528 (113.7 - 134%) -- guaranteed OHKO

But since toxapex should just be running shed shell to avoid dugtrio its a 2hko.

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex in Rain: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Also the calcs are based on rain, rain will not always be up, but you're playing a rain team so you should setup rain anyway as soon as its over.

Outside of destroying stall this mon can also 2hko or Ohko almost the whole meta bar tangrowth, mega venusaur tapu bulu and tapu fini.

If you see any mistakes in my calcs then please correct me on those.

edit: i've been thinking and you could also use life orb swords dance, this makes you able to aqua jet dugtrio tho this does make you get rid of one slot for sd, you dont really need crunch, but toxapex can haze your boosts away and then you cant really touch pex anymore clef gets ohko'd by crabhammer in rain anyway so dont worry about it imo.

252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable in Rain: 354-416 (89.8 - 105.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Flame from Heaven]

First off I'll repeat some noms I still feel need to pass through:


Now, for the further scourging of the B ranks (meaning B+ and B- too)
Salamence to C+ - No reason to use this over Gyrados rn sans the 100 base speed - insignificant as it's gonna get revenged with the >100 scarfers anyways. It has a terrible defensive typing and not enough bulk, making it very hard to set up in this current meta.
Bisharp to B - Webs is dying and this was at its best on webs. Outside of it, it loses to bulky steels and it loses to rain. It also loses to the rising Tapu Koko.
Togekiss to C+ - Honestly, it's not very good right now. Its only niche is a stallbreaker, but it loses to Chansey, Clefable and even Zapdos without significant hax on its favor. Air Slash is a weak STAB move and there are plenty of flying resists or mons just flat-out capable of taking them on stall. I don't see this, a failing stallbreaker, as good as Ninetales-A, the heart of AV, Smeargle, the heart of the still-ok SW, Nihilego, a decent scarfer, Mega Gardevoir, a very strong breaker or Muk-A, a great Pursuit trapper and special tank. I also have no problem seeing this on the level of Mega Aero, Cofagrigus or Mega Chomp.

On a final note, I'd like to second Gastrodon to B rank because this thing truly walls rain.

And now it's time for the C ranks:
Dragonite to C - As a DDer it's just too easily neutered. You have >100 scarfers everywhere that'll outspeed it at +1. While it can get to +2 with its bulk, it needs SR off the field - not easy to do - and since it doesn't run Roost, it can be pressured and be prevented from setting up twice. At +1 it's just rather underwhelming. The opportunity cost of the Z-move slot is also too great. I consider Salamence, a mon I believe belongs in C+ and is a DDer, much better at its job with the potential to snowball out of control. I also consider Cofagrigus and Scolipede better sweepers. This doesn't seem out of place with Buzzwole, Cresselia, and Thundurus-Therian rn.
Gyarados-Mega to C - This just sucks. At +1 it can't really sweep and it's never getting to +2 with that god-awful defensive typing. The opportunity cost is rising with new megas being released. There's also an opp. cost compared to regular Gyarados, which honestly is just a much better sweeper. Honestly I'm even considering C-.
Breloom to UR - I haven't seen it at all this gen and it's not hard to see why. Terrible defensive typing, terrible bulk, terrible speed with Mach Punch being negated by Psychic Terrain, and Spore losing out with Tangrowth and Electric/Misty terrain everywhere. Rain outspeeds and kills, it can't really do much to bulky steels and double defog stall doesn't have issues at all. No reason to use.
Magneton to UR - With Magnezone falling off, I don't see why this is here. IK it's used as a choice scarfer that has an ok speed tier to beat stuff like gren but honestly it's supposed to trap steels and when it can't do that well enough anymore it's time for it to get UR.
Kabutops to UR - Mega Swampert just about 100% outclasses it.

The A ranks are pretty stable rn, no need to discuss changes there except for my previous two noms. I hate to seem rude or anything of the sort, but may I ask why Zapdos and Tyranitar weren't raised, particularly Tyranitar?

EDITS:




Mega Swampert is pretty much THE premier swift swim sweeper on rain teams for its defensive utility, sheer power and wide coverage. Honestly, Ground > Rock both offensively and defensively, and Mega Swampert's insane bulk more than makes up for both the mega slot and the somewhat lower speed. In addition, Offensive Z-Fly Lando is a great fit on rain teams and by using the Z-Move on Kabutops you're giving it up. Honestly I'd rather have those two than Kabutops.

Bisharp is gonna take me a long time to write up so I'll fully flesh it out later, but tl;dr rain's no good for it, Duggy + Zard Y is absolutely terrible for it and it alone could drop it to B, Koko beats it, bulky steels beat it. All of these are rising, and Bisharp just reacts terribly to these.

Gyarados-Mega has virtually no utility vs offense, as it's just too slow and has too poor a defensive typing. Against stall, it ails vs Skarmory (3hkoed but can roost away and phase out if you don't have Taunt), and Sash Dugtrio can use Reversal and OHKO. Honestly, I don't see it on the level of Mega Aero, which outspeeds almost every scarfer and can just straight-up sweep offensive teams late game, Mega Garchomp whose SD set murders any form of stall far better than Mega Gyara ever could, Manaphy which is a better balance breaker, or Scolipede, which uses Speed Boost to circumvent any revenge killers.
As for what got worse for it, it's the new stall. Double Defog just shits on it. If Zapdos gets in free and pulls off a discharge, Mega Gyara is going to take significant damage. If it's paralyzed, game over. Skarm, as I said, beats it, along with Duggy. Also, it can't break through Ferrothorn, anything offensive that's rising sans rain is bad for it. It's that bad vs offense. The release of Lopunny and Gallade-Mega hurt it a lot. Lopunny still outspeeds at +1 and kills, whereas Gallade provides competition by being better vs balance while still not losing to stall given that mega sableye is taken out for it.

Ok, I see what you mean, but I still think Mega gyarados is no worse than the c mons. C seems fine for it. As for Kabutops, while I'm not opposing a drop I think continental crush, swords dance, and giving the ability to use mega scizor or mawile is a good enough niche to keep it ranked.
Edit: What I meant was that Gyarados mega shouldn't go to c- or UR.

 

[tigers jaw]

aight, i know it's been said before, and will probably be said after europe win wcop, but cune still needs to rise more. it's insane the amount of matchups in which cune with tspikes and/or dugtrio just wins. whilst using and facing it, it's so incredibly apparent how much of a threat it poses in almost ever single matchup (the only real exceptions being pex+av tang and haze pex/mantine). each time it comes it, if near full, it always forces a switch and forces the opponent on the defensive, which is easily taken advantage of by dugtrio or punished with hazards, or forces in shit like lati and koko to take chip (like 50 vs koko lol) and risk burn. dugtrio is another factor that makes cune stupid. not only does it help cune acts as a win condition, it also helps it act as a true stall-breaker. it's comparable to zard-y+dugtrio in that sense; it even needs to exact same things to be trapped to do work vs. stall. another additional tool vs. stall is a huge strain-lifter/boon in the builder, too. it does all this whilst also acting as a back-up water-resist and soft check to most physical attackers.

tldr: cune is broken

 

[Seth_]

Yeah suicune is really good. Let's not forget that it also amazing against trick room (which is niche, but threathing playstyle). This kinds of team cannot really get past suicune's substitute. TR is always stolen out.

And Suicune is pretty good at setting up on it's checks like ferrothorn. You have pretty good chance that they sooner or later miss powerwhip, and then they don't have enough PP to beat you. Bulu is also supposed to be it's check, but in end run it gives it more recovery than damage, and risks scald burns all time.

When I first time posted vincune+tspikes few moths ago I never through that it will grow in power to such ridiculous levels ;_;

 

[Dreadfury]

Wow. I remember Crawdaunt hitting like a nuke back in Gen 5 but I didn't think it managed to 2HKO Toxapex in the rain with its resisted Crabhammer nowadays.

My biggest problem is finding a spot for it on typical rain teams. That being said, though, being able to 2HKO (at worst) every single Stall staple gives it plenty of reason to rise.

Thus:

Crawdaunt
C --> C+: Agree

 

[I like donkeys]

toxapex can haze your boosts away and then you cant really touch pex anymore

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 289-341 (95 - 112.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 278-328 (91.4 - 107.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 304-359 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Just thought i'd let ya know daunt eats pex's ass for breakfast after an SD

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 289-341 (95 - 112.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 278-328 (91.4 - 107.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 304-359 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Just thought i'd let ya know daunt eats pex's ass for breakfast after an SD

Uh... not quite. In a 1v1, Pex can haze as you try to set up an SD, or could attempt to Scald burn you as a mixup. However, I'm not going to deny that those calcs look pretty disgusting, and is something Pex doesn't appreciate on the switch. Depends on the context of the match, I suppose. Nothing on stall appreciates a Knock Off like this anyway, as it can cripple it's MU based nature if given the chance.

Crawdaunt rise: Agree. I'll give a more detailed explanation if needed later.

 

[Nuked]

Regarding the earlier nomination to place Gastrodon higher in the rankings, I wholehardedly agree due to its ability to check both Greninja formes among other top threats with a specially defensive set. Curse is not on the same level as last gen, but Toxic is a great option instead that can cripple incoming water resists like Latios. The recent spike in Tapu Koko (with both Choice Specs and Z move sets being explored) usage coupled with the popularity of rain is more than enough to merit a rise for Gastrodon. However, the main point of this post is to nominate a lower ranked Pokemon for a rise.

Infernape to C+ or B- Rank:

Moveset

Infernape @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge

I understand that Infernape has recently been added to the viability rankings, but I believe that its current ranking is much too low. Infernape is a versatile offensive threat with a variety of options that deserves to be C+ or B- rank. I am of the opinion that comparing Pokemon between ranks to say that something belongs in the rank above is is incredibly arbitrary, so I am mainly going to focus on Infernape’s qualities that got it ranked in the first place and some of the recent metagame trends that make it worthy of a rise. Traditionally, Infernape has usually been used as a wallbreaker of sorts, with it commonly running a Choice Band set in DPP and similar wallbreaking sets in future gens; however, I believe that Infernape’s best set this gen is an anti-offense approach. With a Choice Scarf equipped, Infernape has the ability to revenge kill and outright OHKO some of the most dangerous offensive threats in the tier coupled with a convenient speed tier that allows it to outpace virtually every setup sweeper in the tier after a boost. While Infernape’s attacking stats are nothing to write home about, all of its primary attacking moves have 120 base power, which more or less cancels out the lower attacking stats. Additionally, Infernape’s mediocre bulk is just enough to take every priority move in the tier bar Water Shuriken from Ash Greninja, making it formidable to revenge kill due to its incredible speed. Infernape’s access to U-turn is a boon because it circumvents the common problem that choice item users have with killing momentum. The recent metagame trend of defensive Landorus-T running Leftovers instead of Rocky Helmet coupled with how common offensive variants are makes is huge for Infernape. Obviously Infernape is pretty much dead weight against bulkier playstyle, but there are plenty of Pokemon in the upper echelon of the rankings that struggle with the same issue. Infernape is not a metagame defining threat by any means, but it is certainly not the piece of garbage that many people think it is and more than deserving of a higher rank.

Calcs vs Top Offensive Mons

252 Atk Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 238-282 (76.5 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Infernape Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 532-628 (171 - 201.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 300-354 (99.6 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Infernape Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 258-304 (91.8 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Infernape Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 284-336 (101 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 468-552 (164.2 - 193.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pinsir-Mega: 288-342 (106.2 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 320-378 (99 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Infernape Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 456-540 (153.5 - 181.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 278-330 (105.3 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 472-564 (138.4 - 165.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Medicham-Mega: 192-226 (73.5 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Calcs vs Priority

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Infernape: 90-106 (30.7 - 36.1%) -- 51.3% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Infernape: 236-282 (80.5 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Infernape: 95-112 (32.4 - 38.2%) -- 97.1% chance to 3HKO

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Regarding the earlier nomination to place Gastrodon higher in the rankings, I wholehardedly agree due to its ability to check both Greninja formes among other top threats with a specially defensive set. Curse is not on the same level as last gen, but Toxic is a great option instead that can cripple incoming water resists like Latios. The recent spike in Tapu Koko (with both Choice Specs and Z move sets being explored) usage coupled with the popularity of rain is more than enough to merit a rise for Gastrodon. However, the main point of this post is to nominate a lower ranked Pokemon for a rise.

Infernape to C+ or B- Rank:

Moveset

Infernape @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn
- Gunk Shot / Stone Edge
- Close Combat / Stone Edge

I understand that Infernape has recently been added to the viability rankings, but I believe that its current ranking is much too low. Infernape is a versatile offensive threat with a variety of options that deserves to be C+ or B- rank. I am of the opinion that comparing Pokemon between ranks to say that something belongs in the rank above is is incredibly arbitrary, so I am mainly going to focus on Infernape’s qualities that got it ranked in the first place and some of the recent metagame trends that make it worthy of a rise. Traditionally, Infernape has usually been used as a wallbreaker of sorts, with it commonly running a Choice Band set in DPP and similar wallbreaking sets in future gens; however, I believe that Infernape’s best set this gen is an anti-offense approach. With a Choice Scarf equipped, Infernape has the ability to revenge kill and outright OHKO some of the most dangerous offensive threats in the tier coupled with a convenient speed tier that allows it to outpace virtually every setup sweeper in the tier after a boost. While Infernape’s attacking stats are nothing to write home about, all of its primary attacking moves have 120 base power, which more or less cancels out the lower attacking stats. Additionally, Infernape’s mediocre bulk is just enough to take every priority move in the tier bar Water Shuriken from Ash Greninja, making it formidable to revenge kill due to its incredible speed. Infernape’s access to U-turn is a boon because it circumvents the common problem that choice item users have with killing momentum. The recent metagame trend of defensive Landorus-T running Leftovers instead of Rocky Helmet coupled with how common offensive variants are makes is huge for Infernape. Obviously Infernape is pretty much dead weight against bulkier playstyle, but there are plenty of Pokemon in the upper echelon of the rankings that struggle with the same issue. Infernape is not a metagame defining threat by any means, but it is certainly not the piece of garbage that many people think it is and more than deserving of a higher rank.

Calcs vs Top Offensive Mons

252 Atk Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 238-282 (76.5 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Infernape Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 532-628 (171 - 201.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 300-354 (99.6 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Infernape Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 258-304 (91.8 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Infernape Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 284-336 (101 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 468-552 (164.2 - 193.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pinsir-Mega: 288-342 (106.2 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 320-378 (99 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Infernape Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 456-540 (153.5 - 181.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 278-330 (105.3 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 472-564 (138.4 - 165.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Medicham-Mega: 192-226 (73.5 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Calcs vs Priority

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Infernape: 90-106 (30.7 - 36.1%) -- 51.3% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Infernape: 236-282 (80.5 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Infernape: 95-112 (32.4 - 38.2%) -- 97.1% chance to 3HKO

Though I am glad Nape got ranked, I can't support it going that high. It is a niche mon that isn't easy to play, and it probably needs to remain in the lower levels of the viability rankings. While I could see it rising to C (maybe?) I can't get behind it going to C+, and absolutely cannot fathom it being compared to most of the mons in B-. B- has some pretty scary mons that really just put Nape to shame. Sorry, but I have to Disagree with Infernape to C+/B-.

 

[thesecondbest]

Nidoking b- --> b
Nidoking is absolutely heat right now, shredding standard balance. It's not quite strong enough vs stall, and against offense it is a bit slow but can still do some work, and it's especially good on webs (even though webs is losing traction, but mimikyu is the rank above it so it still deserves to move up Imo)
I mean, it ohkos both things in S, and beats everything in A+ besides the things that outspeed it (and most zygarde room adamant anyway). And it feasts on the a rank too, only losing to lele keldeo and Pinsir and zardy. Imo it's better than pZ and muk, and belongs alongside hoopa, another breaker with a similar speed tier, better special bulk but worse coverage, mimikyu, and mamoswine
Written on mobile sorry, I may find replays and add calcs later

 

[Callmeyeshua]

That hoopa set posted on the last page is pure heat. Has one me so many games lately. I honestly wouldnt be opposed to seeing it in like b- since it pretty much solos stall after one boost and they really cant do anything about it. Might be the most consistent stall breaker in the tier tbh. I always found shed shell Lele to require a huge amount of 50/50s to beat stall and all have to do is guess right once or twoce and there goes your chance to win. Hoopa on the other hand comes in for free on chansey (watch for toxic) and pex, and cant be trapped. I suppose this could be dealt with by running pursuit on dugtrio but IDK how good that would be as marowak had a similar role early sumo and dugs barely ran it then

 

[Siggu]

That hoopa set posted on the last page is pure heat. Has one me so many games lately. I honestly wouldnt be opposed to seeing it in like b- since it pretty much solos stall after one boost and they really cant do anything about it. Might be the most consistent stall breaker in the tier tbh. I always found shed shell Lele to require a huge amount of 50/50s to beat stall and all have to do is guess right once or twoce and there goes your chance to win. Hoopa on the other hand comes in for free on chansey (watch for toxic) and pex, and cant be trapped. I suppose this could be dealt with by running pursuit on dugtrio but IDK how good that would be as marowak had a similar role early sumo and dugs barely ran it then

Hoopa takes significantly more damage to Pursuit than Marowak ever could.

252 Atk Dugtrio Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hoopa: 220-260 (73 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Dugtrio Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 68-82 (26 - 31.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

(This is if they don't switch out)

So if regular Hoopa becomes rather relevant due to its (current) advantage over technically better stallbreakers like its Unleashed forme, Pursuit would become more common.

But for now, a rank is deserved IMO as stall is simply not prepared for it, having (almost) all the advantages of Hoopa-U while lacking its number one downside. We shall see later on.

 

[Kshuaib734]

Anybody thinking that Kabutops is C or UR is absolutely out of their mind, and I would go as far as to say it is completely superior to Mega Swampert. NOTE THAT I HAVE EXTENSIVELY USED BOTH, SO UNLIKE 99% OF YOU I CAN MAKE AN INFORMED OPINION. If it helps I am 1850 elo on ladder, which makes me higher ranked than 90% of people here too. It is arrogant of me to say, but it is true.

The reasons are simple:

1) Freaking base 115 attack is fabulous compared to Mega Swampert's shitty base 150 attack? How so? WELL THERE'S SOMETHING CALLED AN ITEM GUYS, I call it life orb/waternium z/rocknium z.

2) Kabutops has a far more favorable speed tier, with Swampert's base 70 speed often being insufficient vs mid range scarfers. Kabutops only really gets outsped by rain Kingdra/scarf Keldeo/scarf Kartana.

3) SWORDS DANCE- like seriously guys, Swampert's crappy attack stat leaves it struggling to take out common walls such as Mew and Skarmory. Due to its threatening presence, Kabutops forces many switches and has many opportunities to set up swords dance and sweep. Swords Dance+rocknium Z 1 hit demolishes threats such as Toxapex, Mega Sableye, TANGROWTH, Skarmory, Mew, Chansey NO PROBLEM. ***Having used both Kabutops and Swampert on my rain team, this is probably the deciding factor. TOO MANY PEOPLE IN HIGH ELO USE STALL and Swampert is a complete dead weight against stall, as I alluded to earlier, due to its pitiful attack stat and lack of setup. The very reason I ended up swapping back to Kabutops from Swampert was its inability to provide any usefulness whatsoever against high elo stall****

4) Unpredictability- Mega Swampert is a single set with the occasional stealth rock. Kabutops has a myriad of item options as I listed above, as well as tricky moves to keep opponents on their toes, such as aqua jet (more on this below), rapid spin, and KNOCK OFF.

5) Utility outside of rain- I want to make at least some attempt at a balanced argument here and say that yes, Mega Swampert provides more utility outside of rain due to its great defensive typing and fantastic bulk. But once again its lack of setup and limited utility moves render this semi-obsolete. Of course Kabutops struggles outside of rain because it can't absorb a solid hit like Mega Swampert can, but that being said it does have AQUA JET which definitely surprises people and nets solid non-rain kills, especially after a swords dance/choice band boost.

 

[robopoke]

Anybody thinking that Kabutops is C or UR is absolutely out of their mind, and I would go as far as to say it is completely superior to Mega Swampert. NOTE THAT I HAVE EXTENSIVELY USED BOTH, SO UNLIKE 99% OF YOU I CAN MAKE AN INFORMED OPINION. If it helps I am 1850 elo on ladder, which makes me higher ranked than 90% of people here too. Its arrogant of me to say, but its true.

The reasons are simple:

1) Freaking base 115 attack is fabulous compared to Mega Swampert's shitty base 150 attack? How so? WELL THERE'S SOMETHING CALLED AN ITEM GUYS, I call it life orb/waternium z/rocknium z.

2) Kabutops has a far more favorable speed tier, with Swampert's base 70 speed often being insufficient vs mid range scarfers. Kabutops only really gets outsped by rain Kingdra/scarf Keldeo/scarf Kartana.

3) SWORDS DANCE- like seriously guys, Swampert's crappy attack stat leaves it struggling to take out common walls such as Mew and Skarmory. Due to its threatening presence, Kabutops forces many switches and has many opportunities to set up swords dance and sweep. Swords Dance+rocknium Z 1 hit demolishes threats such as Toxapex, Mega Sableye, TANGROWTH, Skarmory, Mew, Chansey NO PROBLEM. ***Having used both Kabutops and Swampert on my rain team, this is probably the deciding factor. TOO MANY PEOPLE IN HIGH ELO USE STALL and Swampert is a complete dead weight against stall, as I alluded to earlier, due to its pitiful attack stat and lack of setup. The very reason I ended up swapping back to Kabutops from Swampert was its inability to provide any usefulness whatsoever against high elo stall****

4) Unpredictability- Mega Swampert is a single set with the occasional stealth rock. Kabutops has a myriad of item options as I listed above, as well as tricky moves to keep opponents on their toes, such as aqua jet (more on this below), rapid spin, and KNOCK OFF.

5) Utility outside of rain- I want to make at least some attempt at a balanced argument here and say that yes, Mega Swampert provides more utility outside of rain due to its great defensive typing and fantastic bulk. But once again its lack of setup and limited utility render this semi-obsolete. Of course Kabutops struggles outside of rain because it can't absorb a solid hit like Mega Swampert can, but that being said it does have AQUA JET which definitely surprises people and nets solid non-rain kills, especially after a swords dance/choice band boost.

You mention some solid points but you can do that without mentioning your current Elo, capping to show your emotions and dissing a part of the community.

I totally agree with the points mentioned and I also agree with you that Kabutops is not represented well in the current VR, but you are underselling some very important facts:

1) defensive utility. Swampert-Mega can come in on so many mons that force out Pelipper like Koko, Zapdos. Look at the mons from B- to S and tell me when can Kabutops switch in safely while beating it?
2) Lack of Ice Punch. Ice Punch is an important coverage move to hit Grasstypes and Groundtypes not weak to Waterfall in 1 move. Example: Ice Punch hits Zygarde+AV Tangrowth while Kabutops has to predict.
3) Ferrothorn walls you if you opt to go for Aqua Jet/Knock OFF > Superpower/Low Kick. Even if Mega Swampert forgos Fightingcoverage for Rain Dance or Stealth Rock, Earthquake still does a good chunk on the switch.
4) Saying that Mega Swampert fails to take out common walls such as Mew and Skarmory is wrong. Rainboosted Waterfalls 2HKO both of them after Rocks which is the important thing (or Aqua Tail if you swing that way)
5) The Matchup vs stall is actually worse for Kabutops lol. I dont know which Stallteam you faced, but
a) without Life Orb Kabutops does not 2HKO Quagsire even in Rain.
b) if you are Life Orb and have Fighting coverage, Dugtrio revenges.
c) if you have SD LO+Aqua Jet then Toxapex eats +2 Stone Edge and dont forget 80% Hitchance, Scald doing almost 50%, potentially burning you and being forced to take Life Orb recoil.

Saying Kabutops is completely superior to Mega Swampert while Mega Swampert can easily get up rocks and be a threat without even having SD (coz you just 2HKO the switchins) just shows what a teamplayer that mon is.

 

[Jordy]

1) Freaking base 115 attack is fabulous compared to Mega Swampert's shitty base 150 attack? How so? WELL THERE'S SOMETHING CALLED AN ITEM GUYS, I call it life orb/waternium z/rocknium z.

last time i checked z-moves didnt increase ur attack stat, or do they now?

btw, Waterium z* and Rockium z* not Waternium z and Rocknium z.

 

[Kshuaib734]

You mention some solid points but you can do that without mentioning your current Elo, capping to show your emotions and dissing a part of the community.

I totally agree with the points mentioned and I also agree with you that Kabutops is not represented well in the current VR, but you are underselling some very important facts:

1) defensive utility. Swampert-Mega can come in on so many mons that force out Pelipper like Koko, Zapdos. Look at the mons from B- to S and tell me when can Kabutops switch in safely while beating it?
2) Lack of Ice Punch. Ice Punch is an important coverage move to hit Grasstypes and Groundtypes not weak to Waterfall in 1 move. Example: Ice Punch hits Zygarde+AV Tangrowth while Kabutops has to predict.
3) Ferrothorn walls you if you opt to go for Aqua Jet/Knock OFF > Superpower/Low Kick. Even if Mega Swampert forgos Fightingcoverage for Rain Dance or Stealth Rock, Earthquake still does a good chunk on the switch.
4) Saying that Mega Swampert fails to take out common walls such as Mew and Skarmory is wrong. Rainboosted Waterfalls 2HKO both of them after Rocks which is the important thing (or Aqua Tail if you swing that way)
5) The Matchup vs stall is actually worse for Kabutops lol. I dont know which Stallteam you faced, but
a) without Life Orb Kabutops does not 2HKO Quagsire even in Rain.
b) if you are Life Orb and have Fighting coverage, Dugtrio revenges.
c) if you have SD LO+Aqua Jet then Toxapex eats +2 Stone Edge and dont forget 80% Hitchance, Scald doing almost 50%, potentially burning you and being forced to take Life Orb recoil.

Saying Kabutops is completely superior to Mega Swampert while Mega Swampert can easily get up rocks and be a threat without even having SD (coz you just 2HKO the switchins) just shows what a teamplayer that mon is.

1) Yes, Mega Swampert has better bulk and defensive typing for better switch ins, this is true.
2) Ice punch has only 75 power so I find it pretty useless, especially because most ice weak types such as Zygarde, Landorus and Tangrowth are PHYSICAL walls. Against the specific core of Zygarde + Tangrowth it is useless because tangrowth can eat up an ice punch (it doesn't even 2hko tangrowth)
3) Ferrothorn is a problem for kabutops, but Mega Swampert doesn't exactly blitz it away either. Mega Swampert superpower barely does 60% and then ferro ohko's with 4x super effective seedbomb/power whip.
4) AFTER ROCKS, good luck keeping those up with all the mew/skarmory defog. And good luck surviving Mew's will o wisp, which kabutops counters thanks to swords dance.
5)a) Okay, so I will use another pokemon to take out this useless stall quagsire which is very rarely used in high elo stall.
5)b) 20% waterfall flinch chance and since you seem to like the idea of rocks being up, maybe they will be up for dugtrio so I can ohko it?
5)c) Stone edge is actually a bad idea unless you take rocknium z, I personally use rocknium z swords dance so toxapex is ohko after swords dance boost. If you are life orb then I would swap stone edge with superpower tbh.

But anyway, for point 5 I see you have tried to pick out 3 stall counters for kabutops, who should be able to deal with 2 of them. While Swampert may do a little better against these 3 situations, it is still HOPELESS vs mega sableye, and debatable vs mew and skarmory as we have already argued about. Do not get me started on other stall mons like clefable, Alomomola, Tangrowth, Shedinja, because Kabutops is better vs all of these.

 

[écarlate]

1) Yes, Mega Swampert has better bulk and defensive typing for better switch ins, this is true.
because most ice weak types such as Zygarde, Landorus and Tangrowth are PHYSICAL walls.

I'm pretty sure that Zygarde is not used very often as a physical wall, the most popular sets being Choice Band and Dragon Dance, which often don't actually run any defensive investment.

3) Ferrothorn is a problem for kabutops, but Mega Swampert doesn't exactly blitz it away either. Mega Swampert superpower barely does 60% and then ferro ohko's with 4x super effective seedbomb/power whip.

.
While yes, Ferrothorn can OHKO Swampert, robopoke was saying that Earthquake did a good chunk to Ferrothorn on the switch in, obviously no competent player will stay in on Ferro to Earthquake it and the get KO'd.

 

[Toshiro46]

1) Yes, Mega Swampert has better bulk and defensive typing for better switch ins, this is true.
2) Ice punch has only 75 power so I find it pretty useless, especially because most ice weak types such as Zygarde, Landorus and Tangrowth are PHYSICAL walls. Against the specific core of Zygarde + Tangrowth it is useless because tangrowth can eat up an ice punch (it doesn't even 2hko tangrowth)
3) Ferrothorn is a problem for kabutops, but Mega Swampert doesn't exactly blitz it away either. Mega Swampert superpower barely does 60% and then ferro ohko's with 4x super effective seedbomb/power whip.
4) AFTER ROCKS, good luck keeping those up with all the mew/skarmory defog. And good luck surviving Mew's will o wisp, which kabutops counters thanks to swords dance.
5)a) Okay, so I will use another pokemon to take out this useless stall quagsire which is very rarely used in high elo stall.
5)b) 20% waterfall flinch chance and since you seem to like the idea of rocks being up, maybe they will be up for dugtrio so I can ohko it?
5)c) Stone edge is actually a bad idea unless you take rocknium z, I personally use rocknium z swords dance so toxapex is ohko after swords dance boost. If you are life orb then I would swap stone edge with superpower tbh.

But anyway, for point 5 I see you have tried to pick out 3 stall counters for kabutops, who should be able to deal with 2 of them. While Swampert may do a little better against these 3 situations, it is still HOPELESS vs mega sableye, and debatable vs mew and skarmory as we have already argued about. Do not get me started on other stall mons like clefable, Alomomola, Tangrowth, Shedinja, because Kabutops is better vs all of these.

1)Much better bulk and a much better defensive typing. This cannot be overstated when it has an immunity to Pelipper's 4x weakness to electric and Megagross-level bulk.

2) ?? 252+ Atk Swampert-Mega Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 340-404 (94.9 - 112.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO, 252+ Atk Swampert-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 166-196 (41 - 48.5%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock. Zygarde gets destroyed and Tangrowth is an unreliable switch in, especially with chip. And unlike Kabutops, Swampert has all the time in the world to deal with Tangrowth, because it doesn't suffer from Life Orb recoil and can actually take a hit or two.

3)Once again with Ferro, Swampert isn't nearly as bothered by the barbs as Kabutops is, and EQ into Superpower is a reliable 2HKO, so it's once again an iffy switch in, and unlike Tangrowth it's worn down much easier due to no regenerator. Swampert has a much better match up vs it is what I'm saying.

4)SD is not a counter to burn, say hello to being walled by Clefable for days or forced out by a mon you can't touch.

 

[robopoke]

1) Yes, Mega Swampert has better bulk and defensive typing for better switch ins, this is true.
2) Ice punch has only 75 power so I find it pretty useless, especially because most ice weak types such as Zygarde, Landorus and Tangrowth are PHYSICAL walls. Against the specific core of Zygarde + Tangrowth it is useless because tangrowth can eat up an ice punch (it doesn't even 2hko tangrowth)
3) Ferrothorn is a problem for kabutops, but Mega Swampert doesn't exactly blitz it away either. Mega Swampert superpower barely does 60% and then ferro ohko's with 4x super effective seedbomb/power whip.
4) AFTER ROCKS, good luck keeping those up with all the mew/skarmory defog. And good luck surviving Mew's will o wisp, which kabutops counters thanks to swods dance.
5)a) Okay, so I will use another pokemon to take out this useless stall quagsire which is very rarely used in high elo stall.
5)b) 20% waterfall flinch chance and since you seem to like the idea of rocks being up, maybe they will be up for dugtrio so I can ohko it?
5)c) Stone edge is actually a bad idea unless you take rocknium z, I personally use rocknium z swords dance so toxapex is ohko after swords dance boost. If you are life orb then I would swap stone edge with superpower tbh.

But anyway, for point 5 I see you have tried to pick out 3 stall counters for kabutops, who should be able to deal with 2 of them. While Swampert may do a little better against these 3 situations, it is still HOPELESS vs mega sableye, and debatable vs mew and skarmory as we have already argued about. Do not get me started on other stall mons like clefable, Alomomola, Tangrowth, Shedinja, because Kabutops is better vs all of these.

First of all I did not assume Rocks gone for any Dugtrio but I assumed Rain being stalled out and then being trapped by Dugtrio without Aqua Jet.

A thing that bothers me is you always looking in a 1vs1 situation. Mega Sableye cannot switch into Mega Swampert and that is what counts. Boosted Waterfalls from Base 150 Attack without losing any recoil, resisting Stealth Rock, great nevermissing secondary Stab with better coverage and access to Ice Punch makes sure, that only a few amount of pokemons can switch in after rocks safely.

The biggest turnoff is that Kabutops is completely walled by Ferrothorn without Fighting coverage which is a major turnoff for Rain teams. If there is any Set that could rise, it will be SD Stone Edge Waterfall Superpower which has the best coverage. I would also consider Life Orb to be the superior item to actually get kills at +2 without Z-Move:

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 240 HP / 72+ Def Mew in Rain: 398-468 (99.2 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kabutops Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 341-402 (105.5 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde in Rain: 398-469 (111.1 - 131%)

 

[Kshuaib734]

A thing that bothers me is you always looking in a 1vs1 situation.

A thing that bothers me is that YOU are always looking in a 1vs1situation and forgetting that you the player have 5 more pokemon! I don't run the standard noob rain team, my hybrid sand/rain is what got me to top 100 in ladder (note that sand also gives kabutops 50% special defense but not Swampert).

Perhaps Kabutops is less useful on full rain teams, which makes some of your points more valid.

On semi rain teams such as mine ferrothorn is not such a problem because my non rain half has answers to deal with ferro. Like you said, its not always 1v1.


Personally I would like to take this moment to promote semi/dual weather over complete mono rain. Be creative people.

kabutops is trapped by dugtrio.

As I said earlier, aqua jet is essential for using kabutops when rain ends, and this move serves the dual purpose of sh*tting all over your duggy.

 

[Toshiro46]

A thing that bothers me is that YOU are always looking in a 1vs1situation and forgetting that you the player have 5 more pokemon! I don't run the standard noob rain team, my hybrid sand/rain is what got me to top 100 in ladder (note that sand also gives kabutops 50% special defense but not Swampert).

Perhaps Kabutops is less useful on full rain teams, which makes some of your points more valid.

On semi rain teams such as mine ferrothorn is not such a problem because my non rain half has answers to deal with ferro. Like you said, its not always 1v1.

As I said earlier, aqua jet is essential for using kabutops when rain ends, and this move serves the dual purpose of sh*tting all over your duggy.

So Kabutops isn't completely superior to Swampert on rain teams? And Dug has a sash on stall so aqua jet is kind of redundant so long as dug is full.

 

[Deleted User 400951]

Oh god what have I done.
I'm sorry, but Mega Swampert is pretty much 100% better than Kabutops and to flat-out say that Kabutops is better is both wrong and uninformed. I'm gonna respond in italics.

Anybody thinking that Kabutops is C or UR is absolutely out of their mind, and I would go as far as to say it is completely superior to Mega Swampert. NOTE THAT I HAVE EXTENSIVELY USED BOTH, SO UNLIKE 99% OF YOU I CAN MAKE AN INFORMED OPINION. Geez, how humble you are... If it helps I am 1850 elo on ladder, which makes me higher ranked than 90% of people here too. It is arrogant of me to say, but it is true. the humility never ends... that is higher than me, I will admit, but honestly you shouldn't be that rude to say that no one else can make an informed opinion. That's too much.

The reasons are simple:

1) Freaking base 115 attack is fabulous compared to Mega Swampert's shitty base 150 attack? How so? WELL THERE'S SOMETHING CALLED AN ITEM GUYS, I call it life orb/waternium z/rocknium z.

Life Orb recoil wears it down way too quickly. Mega Swampert still hits very hard without that recoil. As for z-moves... it's a one time use and as I said it prevents you from using other, potentially better Z users. For example, I've found Lando-T with Z-Fly to synergize very well with rain. Also, I've found that people tend to only use Z-Rock because Z-Water does jack for it and Life Orb impales it too quickly.

2) Kabutops has a far more favorable speed tier, with Swampert's base 70 speed often being insufficient vs mid range scarfers. Kabutops only really gets outsped by rain Kingdra/scarf Keldeo/scarf Kartana.

Mega Swampert can live a hit from Scarf Keldeo and strike back with EQ. The same goes for Rain Kingdra, and mid-level scarfers like ScarfChomp and Lele. Scarf Kartana isn't really that great and rain has Ferro to deal with it since Ferro's common on rain from what I've found. Mega Pert's godly bulk > slight difference in speed.

3) SWORDS DANCE- like seriously guys, Swampert's crappy attack stat leaves it struggling to take out common walls such as Mew and Skarmory. Due to its threatening presence, Kabutops forces many switches and has many opportunities to set up swords dance and sweep. Swords Dance+rocknium Z 1 hit demolishes threats such as Toxapex, Mega Sableye, TANGROWTH, Skarmory, Mew, Chansey NO PROBLEM. ***Having used both Kabutops and Swampert on my rain team, this is probably the deciding factor. TOO MANY PEOPLE IN HIGH ELO USE STALL and Swampert is a complete dead weight against stall, as I alluded to earlier, due to its pitiful attack stat and lack of setup. The very reason I ended up swapping back to Kabutops from Swampert was its inability to provide any usefulness whatsoever against high elo stall****

The attack stat is not crappy. Honestly, where did you get that idea? Swampert is not deadweight vs stall, it beats Mega Sableye, Clefable and the sort under rain. And by the way, PuP is still common on Mega Swampert.

4) Unpredictability- Mega Swampert is a single set with the occasional stealth rock. Kabutops has a myriad of item options as I listed above, as well as tricky moves to keep opponents on their toes, such as aqua jet (more on this below), rapid spin, and KNOCK OFF.

Kabutops is a shit spinner, Knock Off doesn't really help that much and, well, yeah Aqua Jet is something. The Z-Moves are something too but as I said they have a high opportunity cost.

5) Utility outside of rain- I want to make at least some attempt at a balanced argument here and say that yes, Mega Swampert provides more utility outside of rain due to its great defensive typing and fantastic bulk. But once again its lack of setup and limited utility moves render this semi-obsolete. Of course Kabutops struggles outside of rain because it can't absorb a solid hit like Mega Swampert can, but that being said it does have AQUA JET which definitely surprises people and nets solid non-rain kills, especially after a swords dance/choice band boost.

Lol ok Mega Swampert provides a lot of the defensive backbone of rain. Kabutops is absolute shit outside of rain that will get at most 1 kill, it being slow and frail with a poor defensive typing. Keldeo's living that Aqua Jet and just outspeeding and OHKOing. So can plenty of other mons. Mega Swampert on the other hand is bulky and can hit back hard. Oh, and also, there's this great thing called Tapu Lele and Psychic Terrain, and guess what? It nullifies aqua jet entirely. Mega Swampert is eons better outside of rain and IDK what would make you think otherwise.

1) Yes, Mega Swampert has better bulk and defensive typing for better switch ins, this is true.
2) Ice punch has only 75 power so I find it pretty useless, especially because most ice weak types such as Zygarde, Landorus and Tangrowth are PHYSICAL walls. Against the specific core of Zygarde + Tangrowth it is useless because tangrowth can eat up an ice punch (it doesn't even 2hko tangrowth)

Somene above already pointed out how Ice Punch is great.

3) Ferrothorn is a problem for kabutops, but Mega Swampert doesn't exactly blitz it away either. Mega Swampert superpower barely does 60% and then ferro ohko's with 4x super effective seedbomb/power whip.

Again, someone above already did my work for me.

4) AFTER ROCKS, good luck keeping those up with all the mew/skarmory defog. And good luck surviving Mew's will o wisp, which kabutops counters thanks to swords dance.

While Mew may be an issue, it's not the catch-all to SR. Skarmory only fits on stall. I'd still say hazard control isn't the best rn because Mew is around it for splashable ones. And someone already did the work for me on that retarded SD point. I will admit vs stall it can be tough to get rocks at all though.

5)a) Okay, so I will use another pokemon to take out this useless stall quagsire which is very rarely used in high elo stall.

You yourself literally said too many people on high ELO use stall and that's why mega pert sucks.

5)b) 20% waterfall flinch chance and since you seem to like the idea of rocks being up, maybe they will be up for dugtrio so I can ohko it?

And again you contradict yourself. Against stall rocks aren't gonna stay up or even get set with mega sableye and Dual Defog being everywhere.

5)c) Stone edge is actually a bad idea unless you take rocknium z, I personally use rocknium z swords dance so toxapex is ohko after swords dance boost. If you are life orb then I would swap stone edge with superpower tbh.

This is true retardation. Stone Edge is like the only shit it has vs anything that resists Water, and with Toxapex and Tangrowth everywhere, it's gonna need it. I've only ever seen people use Z-Rock for a reason you know. Nothing else sans SD/Waterfall/SE/Low Kick i with Rock-Z s anything close to viable imo.

But anyway, for point 5 I see you have tried to pick out 3 stall counters for kabutops, who should be able to deal with 2 of them. While Swampert may do a little better against these 3 situations, it is still HOPELESS vs mega sableye, and debatable vs mew and skarmory as we have already argued about. Do not get me started on other stall mons like clefable, Alomomola, Tangrowth, Shedinja, because Kabutops is better vs all of these.

The reason I'm saying Kabutops to UR is because Mega Pert's defensive utility is too great for rain to pass up. It's essentially the only other bulky mon that can fit outside of Ferrothorn, and it provides that killer immunity to Electric. It's still very strong and fast, while also having that defensive utility. I've found Z-Fly Lando better on rain than SD Kabutops personally.