Resource Monotype Viability Rankings [March 2024]

[roxie]

Art by ewokakukaede​

Welcome to the Scarlet and Violet Monotype Viability Rankings! In Monotype, Pokemon are ranked based on their viability relative to the other Pokemon you have available on a particular type. The Pokemon in A rank are more viable than those in B rank, but that does not mean B-rank Pokemon aren't useful or don't have a very valuable niche. Anything that is ranked must be usable and have some value that prevents it from being outclassed. Most Pokemon are placed into one of four different rankings: S, A, B, and C. Previously, the D ranking was included, but collectively, we've decided not to include D rankings during this era of Monotype. Some Pokemon aren’t listed either because they are completely outclassed or haven't been ranked yet. Pokemon are ranked separately for each type. For example, Grass teams love Toedscruel's access to Spikes and Rapid Spin, but Ground teams have limited interest in Toedscruel because there are superior options for its niches; Toedscruel would be ranked separately for each type. Please follow these rules or Sneasler will sleep you every time it uses Dire Claw.

General / Write-up Rules

• Flaming will not be tolerated. Please respectfully debate each other's nominations.
• Post smartly, don't just be like "I like Magnezone, so it should be in S Tier!"
• Stay on topic. This thread is intended for the discussion of how viable Pokemon are relative to each other, which does involve sometimes referring to Pokemon as broken or extremely good. However, there are other more suited threads for posting about whether a Pokemon is too broken, so make sure to frame your posts appropriately.
• Please only nominate rank changes for Pokemon that you have direct experience using. Do not use theory or on-paper ideas.
• Avoid posting very brief and simple questions such as "Why is Galarian Corsola A Rank? It sucks!" The Simple Questions and Simple Answers are the perfect place to ask your simple question to get a simple answer!

Viability Ranking Council: These people will have the final say if a decision by the community cannot be reached or if a Pokemon is completely misplaced. If you do not contribute to this thread, do not expect your suggestions to be added miraculously. We each vote individually on Pokemon, so post here if you want all of us to see your suggestion!

• Attribute
• Azick
• Cielau
• Felines
• maroon
• Neko
• roxie
• Scarfire
• yedla

How to rank

• Include the Pokemon you're rating, the type, and what rank you want it to be.
• Explain as to why you put it in that rank and how it fares in Monotype. (Why should it be ranked lower or higher?)

Bug

S Rank

Kleavor

Scizor

Volcarona

A Rank

Forretress

Slither Wing

B Rank

Araquanid

Frosmoth

Galvantula

Lokix

Ribombee

C Rank

Heracross

Vikavolt

D Rank

Rabsca

Vivillon

Yanmega

Dark

S Rank

Chien-Pao

Kingambit

A Rank

Greninja

Meowscarada

Sableye

Ting-Lu

B Rank

Hoopa-Unbound

Hydreigon

Mandibuzz

Muk-Alola

C Rank

Darkrai

Grimmsnarl

Moltres-Galar

Roaring Moon

Samurott-Hisui

D Rank

Crawdaunt

Iron Jugulis

Lokix

Overqwil

Spiritomb

Tyranitar

Weavile

Dragon

S Rank

Dragapult

Gouging Fire

A Rank

Archaludon

Roaring Moon

B Rank

Garchomp

Goodra-Hisui

Latias

Latios

Raging Bolt

C Rank

Dragalge

Dragonite

Hydrapple

Hydreigon

Kommo-o

Kyurem

Walking Wake

D Rank

Cyclizar

Electric

S Rank

Iron Hands

A Rank

Raging Bolt

Rotom-Wash

Zapdos

B Rank

Magnezone

Regieleki

Sandy Shocks

C Rank

Galvantula

Iron Thorns

Pawmot

Raikou

Rotom-Mow

Thundurus

Thundurus-Therian

Toxtricity

D Rank

Electrode-Hisui

Golem-Alola

Pincurchin

Raichu-Alola

Rotom-Frost

Rotom-Heat

Vikavolt

Fairy

S Rank

Flutter Mane

Iron Valiant

Klefki

A Rank

Azumarill

Primarina

B Rank

Enamorus

Clefable

Hatterene

Mimikyu

C Rank

Ninetales-Alola

D Rank

Comfey

Diancie

Enamorus-Therian

Gardevoir

Grimmsnarl

Ribombee

Tinkaton

Weezing-Galar

Fighting

S Rank

Great Tusk

Iron Valiant

A Rank

Iron Hands

Sneasler

Zamazenta

B Rank

Breloom

Keldeo

Lilligant-Hisui

Okidogi

Urshifu-R

C Rank

Gallade

Kommo-o

Quaquaval

Scrafty

Tauros-Paldea-Blaze

Zapdos-Galar

D Rank

Cobalion

Hawlucha

Heracross

Infernape

Lucario

Pawmot

Slither Wing

Terrakion

Virizion

Fire

S Rank

Heatran

Gouging Fire

Ogerpon-Hearthflame

A Rank

Ceruledge

Ninetales

Torkoal

B Rank

Arcanine-Hisui

Cinderace

Iron Moth

Volcanion

Volcarona

Talonflame

C Rank

Tauros-Paldea-Blaze

D Rank

Armarouge

Incineroar

Infernape

Moltres

Rotom-Heat

Skeledirge

Flying

S Rank

Corviknight

Gliscor

A Rank

Articuno

Dragonite

Gyarados

Enamorus

Landorus

Skarmory

B Rank

Landorus-Therian

Tornadus-Therian

Zapdos

C Rank

Mandibuzz

Moltres

Moltres-Galar

Thundurus-Therian

D Rank

Enamorus-Therian

Flamigo

Iron Jugulis

Kilowattrel

Pelipper

Thundurus

Zapdos-Galar

Ghost

S Rank

Ceruledge

Flutter Mane

Gholdengo

A Rank

Dragapult

Spectrier

B Rank

Brambleghast

Froslass

Pecharunt

Sinistcha

C Rank

Gengar

Mimikyu

Skeledirge

Zoroark-Hisui

D Rank

Basculegion-F

Golurk

Palossand

Polteageist

Sableye

Grass

S Rank

Meowscarada

A Rank

Amoonguss

Hydrapple

Lilligant-Hisui

Ogerpon-Cornerstone

Ogerpon-Hearthflame

Sinistcha

B Rank

Abomasnow

Brambleghast

Breloom

Rillaboom

C Rank

Iron Leaves

Rotom-Mow

Toedscruel

Torterra

Whimsicott

Zarude

D Rank

Ogerpon-Wellspring

Scovillain

Serperior

Shaymin

Venusaur

Ground

S Rank

Clodsire

Ursaluna-Bloodmoon

A Rank

Excadrill

Gliscor

Great Tusk

Hippowdon

Landorus

Mamoswine

B Rank

Garchomp

Ting-Lu

C Rank

Gastrodon

Iron Treads

Landorus-Therian

Quagsire

D Rank

Sandy Shocks

Swampert

Torterra

Trapinch

Ursaluna

Ice

S Rank

Chien-Pao

Ninetales-Alola

A Rank

Kyurem

B Rank

Cloyster

Froslass

Mamoswine

Sandslash-Alola

C Rank

Avalugg

Frosmoth

Weavile

D Rank

Articuno

Cetitan

Glastrier

Piloswine

Normal

S Rank

Ursaluna-Bloodmoon

Zoroark-Hisui

A Rank

Braviary

Ditto

Porygon2

Terapagos

B Rank

Blissey

C Rank

Indeedee

Meloetta

Smeargle

Snorlax

Staraptor

Ursaluna

D Rank

Arboliva

Chansey

Cinccino

Cyclizar

Indeedee-F

Maushold

Porygon-Z

Poison

S Rank

Amoonguss

Muk-Alola

Toxapex

A Rank

Glimmora

Iron Moth

Okidogi

Weezing-Galar

B Rank

Clodsire

Pecharunt

Salazzle

Slowking-Galar

Sneasler

C Rank

Gengar

Overqwil

D Rank

Fezandipiti

Tentacruel

Psychic

S Rank

Hoopa-Unbound

A Rank

Deoxys-Speed

Hatterene

Latios

Slowbro

B Rank

Espathra

Indeedee

Iron Boulder

Iron Crown

Jirachi

Latias

Metagross

Mew

C Rank

Bronzong

Deoxys-Defense

Reuniclus

Slowking-Galar

D Rank

Armarouge

Azelf

Cresselia

Gallade

Gardevoir

Iron Leaves

Malamar

Meloetta

Necrozma

Scream Tail

Slowbro-Galar

Slowking

Rock

S Rank

Ogerpon-Cornerstone

Iron Boulder

A Rank

Arcanine-Hisui

Garganacl

Glimmora

Tyranitar

B Rank

Kleavor

Minior

Rhyperior

Terrakion

C Rank

Coalossal

Diancie

Drednaw

Golem-Alola

Lycanroc

Lycanroc-Dusk

Steel

S Rank

Gholdengo

Kingambit

A Rank

Archaludon

Corviknight

Heatran

Skarmory

B Rank

Empoleon

Excadrill

Goodra-Hisui

Iron Treads

Scizor

C Rank

Iron Crown

D Rank

Jirachi

Klefki

Lucario

Magnezone

Water

S Rank

Toxapex

A Rank

Barraskewda

Greninja

Ogerpon-Wellspring

Pelipper

Primarina

Swampert

B Rank

Empoleon

Gastrodon

Keldeo

Kingdra

Rotom-Wash

Samurott-Hisui

Urshifu-R

C Rank

Basculegion-F

Cloyster

Dondozo

Manaphy

Quagsire

Quaquaval

Tentacruel

Volcanion

Walking Wake

D Rank

Alomomola

Araquanid

Azumarill

Crawdaunt

Gyarados

Lanturn

Lapras

Politoed

Slowbro

Slowking

Suicune

Blacklist
These Pokemon have been brought up multiple times for discussion with the same arguments or are just awful. A type can be blacklisted if it is an extreme circumstance. If anyone talks about a Pokemon that is blacklisted, your post will be deleted and or infracted.

• None

 

[roxie]

Cielau and Scarfire are now members of the vr team, congrats, happy posting.

 

[boomp]

Ok im not going to lie, yall can reply back to my post but I just have to say this. Why is Coalossal at D? Like i just feel none of yall touch the mon let alone Rock and putting it at D is insane. That Mon single handling saved yall ass from getting 6-0 from Scizor, Kingambit, Meow, etc. Removed hazards for the team, and even can get key burns with Flame Body. Like I honestly feel yall dont even touch the type in the first place and see it, but I guess this is just my two cents. If anything slap that to B (I see it as A). Iron Boulder should be S. This Mon is a saving grace for the type, being able to outspeed Sneasler, Greninja, and Meowscarada is crucial for Rock Teams. Garg should be to B or C, Do not see whats the point of Garg in Monotype other than being set up fodder. Its a good mon in UU but not for Monotype. Araquanid should be A for Bug, being a sticky web setter plus providing a lil breathing room from incoming Fire moves with its ability Water Bubble is nice for the type.

Other than that yall are doing great keep it up Love yall :D

 

[ImprobableBlob]

Overall the Steel rankings seem pretty in line with my opinions, minor quibbles in some placements, but no more than a single tier and even then i could be swayed. The real crime is not ranking

who is a great setter of toxic spikes which the type loves, as well as having toxic if t spikes aren't viable and parting shot for pivoting into bulky teamates who can take hits from mons with lowered offenses with ease. I would put it in B tier because i am very biased towards it, but C tier is probably more reasonable. I have achieved decent ladder results playing with it, though i never broke 1800, so i hope that is enough to consider the best car pokemon out there.

 

[mushamu]

Was asked to post my thoughts by a very particular handsome and charming council member so here’s my 2 cents on some of the mons that I feel strong about + some other minor ones.

A -> S

Gambit is arguably the best mon on Dark and why the type is good in the metagame, the only Pokemon that can also be described like that is Pao. It's noticably better and more influential than any other pokemon in the A rankings, even though Ting-lu should probably be B ranked. But for Gambit, it's arguably one of the best and threatening Swords Dance users in the entire metagame, with +2 Sucker Punch having ridiculous calculations combined with Supreme Overlord. Unless you load it against Fighting which is probably the only type Gambit isn't threatening against, in every game it appears in it feels like you're always playing around the threat of it coming in and using Supreme Overlord to sweep as most of the time it's getting a Swords Dance under its belt against weaker Pokemon. As for teambuilding, the compression it provides is near unparalleled. Alongside being a setup sweeper, Steel is the best defensive typing in the game and with Gambit's good bulk it can be a Fairy neutrality that Dark teams appreciate very much. Chien-pao is probably the more "threatening" S-ranked Pokemon that Dark has, but it would be incorrect to say that Gambit does not define the type as much as Pao does alongside being a metagame titan and keeping its only but extremely influential Swords Dance set from sweeping has been a recurring theme throughout the entirety of SV Monotype.

A -> S

In terms of glue Pokemon on Dragon Dragapult is probably not what the common Monotyper would think of, instead coming up with examples like Archaludon, Latias, and Hisuian Goodra. However from my time building Dragon in SV Monotype, Dragapult has been one of the best Pokemon to use on the type so far as I would describe it as defining due to its Speed, typing, status moves, and Infiltrator, even though its mainly known as an offensive Pokemon. I've been using Boots Dragapult with Draco Meteor/Hex/Wisp/Twave and its pretty all-purpose in what it does; sometimes replacing a status move with U-turn is okay too. Double status Dragapult is really good at forcing scenarios that either 1. a Pokemon gets crippled or 2. they get Hex'd or nuked with Draco Meteor. This gives it a lot of outplaying flexibility, as there are certain Pokemon that hate being statused in every matchup and Dragapult can use those opportunities to click Hex or generate momentum on switches freely. Dragapult can pretty much do whatever it wants to in the builder other than that, Scarf Dragapult is the fastest Speed control in the tier, and Substitute + Wisp is good for breaking down bulkier types. Its way more flexible and just better than the A ranked Pokemon and should be S ranked because of the flexibility it provides to Dragon team structures being a jack of all trades of sorts.

C -> B

This nomination is moreso based on how Brambleghast ties into Ghost's main niche in the metagame which gives it a crucial role on the type. In a SV Monotype centralized around hazard stacking and control, Ghost is mainly known for the fact that as an offensive type, the hazards it sets are going to always be impossible to remove. Gholdengo blocks every Defog user, while the type is straight up made up of spinblockers. A lot of the way that Ghost uses to pressure the opposition is through Spikes stacking and the fact that Pokemon that are using Boots are probably going to be outsped by two monsters in Flutter Mane and Dragapult. As for Brambleghast, it is by no means an excellent Pokemon- it's definitely pretty balls when you look at it on paper but it does fill an important role in Monotype: compressing Rapid Spin and Spikes into one slot which frees up Pokemon and item slots on the rest of the team. Running Rapid Spin on Brambleghast means its easier to abuse the sheer power that other Ghost types like Flutter Mane, Dragapult, and Spectrier have instead of being locked down to Boots while Ceruledge also really likes it to preserve Focus Sash. Its bulk is pretty awful but it does have a good typing which gives it a crucial Ground and Water resistance and can at least live medium strong attacks like Hisuian Samurott's Ceasless Edge, giving it flexibility in setting and removing hazards. As far as support Pokemon go on Ghost Brambleghast is the primary example and should be ranked higher to reflect that.

Might post more later but that’s it for now

 

[Scarfire]

Overall the Steel rankings seem pretty in line with my opinions, minor quibbles in some placements, but no more than a single tier and even then i could be swayed. The real crime is not ranking View attachment 594427who is a great setter of toxic spikes which the type loves, as well as having toxic if t spikes aren't viable and parting shot for pivoting into bulky teamates who can take hits from mons with lowered offenses with ease. I would put it in B tier because i am very biased towards it, but C tier is probably more reasonable. I have achieved decent ladder results playing with it, though i never broke 1800, so i hope that is enough to consider the best car pokemon out there.

I can't speak for everyone but I personally gave Revavroom an Unranked vote due to a simple lack of people showcasing it. I'm very open to dropping niche picks into lower tiers, but Revavroom was one that I had not seen in action enough to justify ranking it. In theory its tools all seemed nice, but on average I could not see a reason to put it on a steel team, and the crux of my votes personally is "Could I earnestly recommend using this mon AT ALL to a newer player".

You want a steel-bird, you want gholdengo, you want kingambit, and you want heatran. You absolutely want one of the 2 dragons, either Archaludon to make Gouging/Ogerpons more managable, or Goodra-Hisui to take stuff like specs hydro pumps or spread knock offs better for your spike stack. Last slot options are limited, we've seen tournament showings for double steel dragon, we've seen iron treads/excadrill for spin and volt blocking, we've seen Iron Crown for specs volt switches or just weird setup stuff to beat the likes of fighting, and a handful of other options like Empoleon for knock + momentum, SD Scizor for something to irritate offence, and Bulk Up Corviknight to give balances a bad time.

Among all those options, I could not find myself ever suggesting Revavroom as something noteworthy that newer steel gamers should be considering, but if you have good replays showcasing what its capable of vs the high end types in the meta I will gladly check them out and do a double take on my opinion. As for now, the only real reason I can see for using Revavroom is "because you want to", and to me that isn't enough.

 

[ImprobableBlob]

I can't speak for everyone but I personally gave Revavroom an Unranked vote due to a simple lack of people showcasing it. I'm very open to dropping niche picks into lower tiers, but Revavroom was one that I had not seen in action enough to justify ranking it. In theory its tools all seemed nice, but on average I could not see a reason to put it on a steel team, and the crux of my votes personally is "Could I earnestly recommend using this mon AT ALL to a newer player".

You want a steel-bird, you want gholdengo, you want kingambit, and you want heatran. You absolutely want one of the 2 dragons, either Archaludon to make Gouging/Ogerpons more managable, or Goodra-Hisui to take stuff like specs hydro pumps or spread knock offs better for your spike stack. Last slot options are limited, we've seen tournament showings for double steel dragon, we've seen iron treads/excadrill for spin and volt blocking, we've seen Iron Crown for specs volt switches or just weird setup stuff to beat the likes of fighting, and a handful of other options like Empoleon for knock + momentum, SD Scizor for something to irritate offence, and Bulk Up Corviknight to give balances a bad time.

Among all those options, I could not find myself ever suggesting Revavroom as something noteworthy that newer steel gamers should be considering, but if you have good replays showcasing what its capable of vs the high end types in the meta I will gladly check them out and do a double take on my opinion. As for now, the only real reason I can see for using Revavroom is "because you want to", and to me that isn't enough.

I do recognise that I am the only person I've seen playing with revavroom on steel, and the constraints on teambuilding for steel do make a lot of things hard to justify, but I think that revavroom has a niche for being the best speader of poison on a type that is traditionally quite hard to break and so deserves a spot on the vr.
I don't tend to save my replays but here are a few from the past couple weeks that i think showcase revavroom's niche in steel.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2034067903?p2 vs dragon, revavroom was very useful in chipping down garchomp, baxcalibur, and while i did flex with my chople gambit at the end, blackglasses +2 sucker punch had a 100% chance to kill at the range roaring moon was at.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2032810765?p2 vs dark, toxic from revavroom on ting-lu and mandibuzz allowed for progress to be made, and the parting shot made it about a 50/50 for corviknight to survive 2 icicle crashes from chien-pao. my opponent did get the flinch+highroll (we can ignore them overplaying afterwards the point still stands), but revavroom had set up my team for a very good path to winning.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2036358919?p2 vs water, I misplayed the end of this one by letting quaquaval get a moxie boost, but the progress made by revavroom in getting a toxic on swampert and ogerpon helped a lot in getting to that spot.

 

[Dragapult]

Ok im not going to lie, yall can reply back to my post but I just have to say this. Why is Coalossal at D? Like i just feel none of yall touch the mon let alone Rock and putting it at D is insane. That Mon single handling saved yall ass from getting 6-0 from Scizor, Kingambit, Meow, etc. Removed hazards for the team, and even can get key burns with Flame Body. Like I honestly feel yall dont even touch the type in the first place and see it, but I guess this is just my two cents. If anything slap that to B (I see it as A). Iron Boulder should be S. This Mon is a saving grace for the type, being able to outspeed Sneasler, Greninja, and Meowscarada is crucial for Rock Teams. Garg should be to B or C, Do not see whats the point of Garg in Monotype other than being set up fodder. Its a good mon in UU but not for Monotype. Araquanid should be A for Bug, being a sticky web setter plus providing a lil breathing room from incoming Fire moves with its ability Water Bubble is nice for the type.

Other than that yall are doing great keep it up Love yall :D

boomp611 is absolutely right.

No way is Coalossal D. Likewise for Iron Boulder being anywhere other than S.

Garg has fallen out of favor with most of the few competent Rock builders transitioning to offense. Doesn't even look right next to the other mons in A tier. C is probably a better fit.

Kleavor sucks.

No way is Smeargle C, lol. Mon offers Spore and Webs + untauntable Rocks and Spikes all in one slot, not to mention any of the other options it can run bespoke to your build. Your primary breaker is 52 Spe. Do the math. Won't push for it to be as high as A because of how poorly it does into some common leads and Dragon in general but I think you're hard pressed to find a good Normal that isn't premised on taking advantage of Smeargle's infinite utility and synergy with Zoroark-Hisui which facilitates spike stack with Ghost-typing + Knock Off. Webs alone make Ghost and Dark fairly simple and massively improve the Ground matchup.

Blissey is a fraud. So is Meloetta.

 

[TheGreenistofVortexs]

How is trapinch viable but not flygon.

 

[boomp]

How is trapinch viable but not flygon.

You trap threats like meow, gren, and chien-pao with its ability Arena Trap and Ohko them with Choice Band First Impression.

 

[Scarfire]

How is trapinch viable but not flygon.

Neither is very good at all by any means but yeah as Boomp said it does have the ability to trap random dark/psychic/grass threats that can hurt ground (particularly sandless ground that cant offensively kill stuff like Chien-Pao/Ogerpon with Excadrill and such very reliably).

Not seriously worth and even ranking it in D is probably a stretch, but it did make one appearence in tournament and has a niche that can be discussed.

Flygon unfortunately, has nothing at the moment.

 

[Cielau]

Was asked to post my thoughts by a very particular handsome and charming council member so here’s my 2 cents on some of the mons that I feel strong about + some other minor ones.

A -> S

Gambit is arguably the best mon on Dark and why the type is good in the metagame, the only Pokemon that can also be described like that is Pao. It's noticably better and more influential than any other pokemon in the A rankings, even though Ting-lu should probably be B ranked. But for Gambit, it's arguably one of the best and threatening Swords Dance users in the entire metagame, with +2 Sucker Punch having ridiculous calculations combined with Supreme Overlord. Unless you load it against Fighting which is probably the only type Gambit isn't threatening against, in every game it appears in it feels like you're always playing around the threat of it coming in and using Supreme Overlord to sweep as most of the time it's getting a Swords Dance under its belt against weaker Pokemon. As for teambuilding, the compression it provides is near unparalleled. Alongside being a setup sweeper, Steel is the best defensive typing in the game and with Gambit's good bulk it can be a Fairy neutrality that Dark teams appreciate very much. Chien-pao is probably the more "threatening" S-ranked Pokemon that Dark has, but it would be incorrect to say that Gambit does not define the type as much as Pao does alongside being a metagame titan and keeping its only but extremely influential Swords Dance set from sweeping has been a recurring theme throughout the entirety of SV Monotype.

A -> S

In terms of glue Pokemon on Dragon Dragapult is probably not what the common Monotyper would think of, instead coming up with examples like Archaludon, Latias, and Hisuian Goodra. However from my time building Dragon in SV Monotype, Dragapult has been one of the best Pokemon to use on the type so far as I would describe it as defining due to its Speed, typing, status moves, and Infiltrator, even though its mainly known as an offensive Pokemon. I've been using Boots Dragapult with Draco Meteor/Hex/Wisp/Twave and its pretty all-purpose in what it does; sometimes replacing a status move with U-turn is okay too. Double status Dragapult is really good at forcing scenarios that either 1. a Pokemon gets crippled or 2. they get Hex'd or nuked with Draco Meteor. This gives it a lot of outplaying flexibility, as there are certain Pokemon that hate being statused in every matchup and Dragapult can use those opportunities to click Hex or generate momentum on switches freely. Dragapult can pretty much do whatever it wants to in the builder other than that, Scarf Dragapult is the fastest Speed control in the tier, and Substitute + Wisp is good for breaking down bulkier types. Its way more flexible and just better than the A ranked Pokemon and should be S ranked because of the flexibility it provides to Dragon team structures being a jack of all trades of sorts.

C -> B

This nomination is moreso based on how Brambleghast ties into Ghost's main niche in the metagame which gives it a crucial role on the type. In a SV Monotype centralized around hazard stacking and control, Ghost is mainly known for the fact that as an offensive type, the hazards it sets are going to always be impossible to remove. Gholdengo blocks every Defog user, while the type is straight up made up of spinblockers. A lot of the way that Ghost uses to pressure the opposition is through Spikes stacking and the fact that Pokemon that are using Boots are probably going to be outsped by two monsters in Flutter Mane and Dragapult. As for Brambleghast, it is by no means an excellent Pokemon- it's definitely pretty balls when you look at it on paper but it does fill an important role in Monotype: compressing Rapid Spin and Spikes into one slot which frees up Pokemon and item slots on the rest of the team. Running Rapid Spin on Brambleghast means its easier to abuse the sheer power that other Ghost types like Flutter Mane, Dragapult, and Spectrier have instead of being locked down to Boots while Ceruledge also really likes it to preserve Focus Sash. Its bulk is pretty awful but it does have a good typing which gives it a crucial Ground and Water resistance and can at least live medium strong attacks like Hisuian Samurott's Ceasless Edge, giving it flexibility in setting and removing hazards. As far as support Pokemon go on Ghost Brambleghast is the primary example and should be ranked higher to reflect that.

Might post more later but that’s it for now

Want to explain a bit the idea with the ranking of the mon mushamu put on the spotlight, cuz I saw some debate (especially for kingambitt)

Imo the main reason of why kingambitt and draga aren't S rank (and why I personnaly don't vote S for them), is just in the definition of a S rank. As I understand, a S rank is a mon u usually want to play in all of u're team cuz u don't have really better option, or the advantage to have this mon on your team is so important, that it is imposing a handicap on oneself to don't use them. To have an idea, it's a bit similar to play rain whithout peliper, u can ofc but it's clearly a handicap to don't play the mon (in rain).

For kingambitt, it's for sure one of the best option of dark and clearly one of the best reason why u have to prep dark in all of u're team. But the mon isn't essential for a good dark team, chien pao can take his mixed roll of cleaner + revenge killer. U lost the capacity to take one fairy move from flutter/ena and even valient, but it's not like kingambitt can hard on these mon (depend of the situation and of your spread, but in genaral u can't do that T1 whithout putting u in a difficult situation). Kingambitt help a lot in a majority of mu, and like mushamu said it's probably only the mu fight where kingambitt are the most useless (but like it stays kingambitt, it's not a deadmon). But all of these arguments just show how good and maybe/probably how broken the mon is. And not how the mon is essential for dark.

I have in mind this team I built for mwp vs shiraiki in dlc 1: https://pokepast.es/c921c3b546373d25
Imo dark in dlc 1 and dlc 2 are really similar (u will maybe have to prep keld, but king only help a bit for that, it's not a solution)

For dragapult, imo it's really similar. The mon is really usefull in a lot of situation and help u to correct some problem of a team with the set u want. your speed tier is too low ? Pult scarf ! U need a pivot for your tios/kyurem specs ? Pult is probably one of the best option for that ! A statut spreader can help u a lot to manage some annoying threat people can bring for manage drag ? Pult exist ! Etc.

But again I don't feel like the mon is essential for a good drag, imo only gouging can have this rank even if I can understand why baxca is also S rank.

Finally, yeah bramble could B rank imo. His capacity to compress role are really precious and explain why deci isn't play (with better offensive option and better statistic). But also I don't feel like it's wrong to have this mon in C rank, BO ghost are good but it's pretty 50/50 between HO ghost. U def can use bramble in HO team, but it means don't have another mon on him (maybe fross or spectrier ?) so it's more like a niche in this archetype. Same in BO, if u play bramble, u will probably not playing sinistscha. So u have to make a choice between the hazard control option of bramble and the huge advantage u have against water and ground when u have sinistscha.
I think the C rank are explain by that idea: It's not easy to bring bramble even if the mon have a solid niche

Honnestly all of that is only my opinion, I don't talk for other VR council member. But I hope it can help to understand some rank. I think they are also lot of mon who can be debate, a VR stay really subjective even if u can find a consensus. Imo the case of rock is also really interesting, it's funny to see how they don't really have a consensus of what I could see

 

[mushamu]

Want to explain a bit the idea with the ranking of the mon mushamu put on the spotlight, cuz I saw some debate (especially for kingambitt)

Imo the main reason of why kingambitt and draga aren't S rank (and why I personnaly don't vote S for them), is just in the definition of a S rank. As I understand, a S rank is a mon u usually want to play in all of u're team cuz u don't have really better option, or the advantage to have this mon on your team is so important, that it is imposing a handicap on oneself to don't use them. To have an idea, it's a bit similar to play rain whithout peliper, u can ofc but it's clearly a handicap to don't play the mon (in rain).

For kingambitt, it's for sure one of the best option of dark and clearly one of the best reason why u have to prep dark in all of u're team. But the mon isn't essential for a good dark team, chien pao can take his mixed roll of cleaner + revenge killer. U lost the capacity to take one fairy move from flutter/ena and even valient, but it's not like kingambitt can hard on these mon (depend of the situation and of your spread, but in genaral u can't do that T1 whithout putting u in a difficult situation). Kingambitt help a lot in a majority of mu, and like mushamu said it's probably only the mu fight where kingambitt are the most useless (but like it stays kingambitt, it's not a deadmon). But all of these arguments just show how good and maybe/probably how broken the mon is. And not how the mon is essential for dark.

I have in mind this team I built for mwp vs shiraiki in dlc 1: https://pokepast.es/c921c3b546373d25
Imo dark in dlc 1 and dlc 2 are really similar (u will maybe have to prep keld, but king only help a bit for that, it's not a solution)

For dragapult, imo it's really similar. The mon is really usefull in a lot of situation and help u to correct some problem of a team with the set u want. your speed tier is too low ? Pult scarf ! U need a pivot for your tios/kyurem specs ? Pult is probably one of the best option for that ! A statut spreader can help u a lot to manage some annoying threat people can bring for manage drag ? Pult exist ! Etc.

But again I don't feel like the mon is essential for a good drag, imo only gouging can have this rank even if I can understand why baxca is also S rank.

Finally, yeah bramble could B rank imo. His capacity to compress role are really precious and explain why deci isn't play (with better offensive option and better statistic). But also I don't feel like it's wrong to have this mon in C rank, BO ghost are good but it's pretty 50/50 between HO ghost. U def can use bramble in HO team, but it means don't have another mon on him (maybe fross or spectrier ?) so it's more like a niche in this archetype. Same in BO, if u play bramble, u will probably not playing sinistscha. So u have to make a choice between the hazard control option of bramble and the huge advantage u have against water and ground when u have sinistscha.
I think the C rank are explain by that idea: It's not easy to bring bramble even if the mon have a solid niche

Honnestly all of that is only my opinion, I don't talk for other VR council member. But I hope it can help to understand some rank. I think they are also lot of mon who can be debate, a VR stay really subjective even if u can find a consensus. Imo the case of rock is also really interesting, it's funny to see how they don't really have a consensus of what I could see

To be honest I think why I feel Kingambit should be S ranked ties into how I see the S rank. Rather than the S ranked Pokemon being essential for the type, I see S rank as Pokemon that define the type. Whether or not you can build a good team without it is put to the side and is really up to the builder. For example, even though there are Dark teams that can function well without Kingambit, it's still one of the most defining Pokemon on the type that is arguably just excellent considering what it does both offensively and defensively and is on 95% of teams as a result. At the same time it's also possible to say that you can build good Dark teams without Chien-pao and has happened before in a tournament setting.

If you put into perspective that S rank is equivalent of Pokemon you should always have, or are essential on the type, then a lot of the rankings become questionable. For example on Dragon it's possible to make good teams without Baxcalibur or Gouging Fire despite them being great. Baxcalibur's main shtick on Dragon is Ice Shard priority, but with a solid backbone it's possible to drop it for another teamslot. Gouging Fire doesn't do anything important for Dragon in terms of roles you have to cover, it's moreso just a really good Pokemon. Toxapex on Water is the textbook example of a Pokemon that isn't needed, but is ranked S because it's incredibly good. You can make Water teams without Toxapex, for example replacing it with Tentacruel for a similar role in which it has a similar typing and has Rapid Spin and pivoting with Flip Turn, not to mention Liquid Ooze for Horn Leech. With all these examples in mind, I personally feel like whether or not a Pokemon is needed on a type is mostly subjective and a number of people in tournaments have dropped well-known S ranked Pokemon with varying degrees of success.

On the other hand, it would be unfair to say that these Pokemon don't deserve S because some people don't use them on certain teams. Even with well known tournament players dropping the Pokemon successfully, it doesn't mean the Pokemon are any less viable. Gouging Fire, Baxcalibur, and Toxapex are undoubtedly amazing Pokemon and shouldn't be ever dropped to A in the current metagame. I would also argue that Kingambit isn't on the level of Greninja or Meowscarada, both of which are rather one dimension in what they do. This is mainly a personal preference from when I was on VR council, but having S ranked Pokemon and Pokemon that are needed on the type be two separate things helps with more creative building where players can personally determine whether or not a Pokemon is needed while having rankings that are easier to read.

 

[Guzzles]

A few thoughts of mine regarding certain Normal-type placements, though they’re more nitpicks than anything else, u guys did a rlly great job with the general VR!!


A —> B
I feel Blissey has lost a lot of its necessity within Normal as a type, and generally can be replaced by other mons in her slot. Having lost both Toxic and Teleport in Generation 9, Blissey isn’t quite as much of a staple of the type as it once was. Rather, when you run Blissey, it tends to feel like more of an accessory to Porygon-2 in a defensive core, which has more versatility as a mon, and Blissey’s main usage now comes from Stealth Rock, but this makes it incredibly weak to Taunt and not the best hazard setter Normal has. It functions in specific team comps with the Chansey + Porygon2 defensive core, but it is very much confined to that archetype of Normal and isn’t the level of necessity of other A-rank Normal-types in Ditto and Braviary.

C —> B
A lack of Taunt weakness is now available to Smeargle. Where Blissey struggles, Smeargle can often excel. Spore, webs and untauntable rocks + spikes as well as a huge versatility of options to play from make Smeargle a very decent asset for the type. It really helps a lot of the powerhouses of the type capitalise with the hazards. Webs can make Zoroark-Hisui able to outspeed the vast majority of Pokémon an opponent uses, making it particularly able to deal potent amounts of damage to an opposing team, coupled with the damaging hazards Smeargle can provide Zoroark-Hisui can take out huge chunks of opposing teams. Furthering this, Zoroark-Hisui can spinblock the really powerful hazards Smeargle provides for the typing, being the only Sticky Web setter for the type offering immense utility.

D —> C
I think Cyclizar provides a lot of utility to normal. It capitalises on points where Terapagos does not, being repeated hazard removal. Terapagos has offensive versatility and defensive bulk, but no recovery, unlike Cyclizar. Cyclizar’s Regenerator can really help with long-term hazard removal, while not having to also use Defog to get rid of your own hazards on the opposing team. Furthering this, it provides Knock Off, which is generally scarce within the typing, allowing you to capitalise from your hazards much more as you now have a method of removing HDB which you would not normally, granted your other Pokémon either don’t learn or don’t want to run Knock Off. It also gets access to U-Turn, and can outspeed key opponents to pivot into your more defensive pieces like Porygon-2 or bulky Ursaluna-Bloodmoon which can then take advantage of the chip provided by Cyclizar to OHKO. Cyclizar offers Taunt, U-Turn, Knock Off and Rapid Spin, which are scarce within Normal, giving it a potent utility even without Shed Tail.

 

[numeronormal]

I only play normals and hover around 1600. Here are my thoughts:

A -> C

I don't use Blissey because its not my playstyle, but what I've seen when playing against another normal is that Blisseys are liabilities. Why is this thing A when Chansey is D? Its literally just a Chansey that doesn't need to rely on eviolite. Blissey's rank should be whatever Chansey's rank is +1. Chansey is D, Blissey should be C maximum. Additionally, when its main niche as a special tank becomes set-up fodder, its deadweight (see this replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2042418198 ).

A -> B
I have P2 in my PU team because its this bulky, unkillable thing that does decent damage. But its not in my monotype team because thats all this thing is. You can't play P2 any other way. Compared to terapagos, you can argue that the little extra damage that terapagos gets is not justified for the recovery and extra bulk that P2 has, but terapagos can 1 shot some MU if specs and has the versatility to play utility, specs, or calm mind. It should be the same rank as terapagos (B).

A -> B
Ditto is as much as it is a very important member of your team as it is a complete liability against stall teams. It also can't late game sweep certain important MUs, such as chien-pao without sacred sword, baxcalibur w/out scale shot, gouging fire w/out dragon move, etc which is more common in high ladder.

C -> B

One of these C ranks is not like the others, and thats Indeedee. How this is on the same tier as meloetta... Indeedee provides psychic terrain coverage, and expanding force under psychic terrain hits really hard. Healing wish is essentially a revival blessing, giving your sweepers another chance to sweep/setup.

View attachment 596209 UR -> C
I am a little biased because I am the only one who uses toucannon, but it's better than you think.

If you play toucannon like the other birds (braviary and staraptor), it deserves to be F-Rank. Its stats is literally a worse version of braviary in every way possible. So you can't play Toucannon like braviary at all. Toucannon gets 4 things that the other 2 birds don't have: beak blast, skill link, huge physical movepool, and special movepool. It would be a waste to use toucannon for its special side given its low sp atk and normals have great special sweepers in zoroark and ursaluna bm. by taking advantage of toucannon's 3 unique niches, you get great coverage with rock blast, bullet seed, and beak blast (which burns and does huge stab damage). round it up with temper flare for steel types and its a decent wallbreaker. Beak blast destroys every fighting MU except for zamazenta and iron treads; at the minimum you'll burn it, making them setup fodder for ursaluna-bm. Given the lack of normal physical sweepers (ursaluna is never used over its bm counterpart), I recommend toucannon if you need an additional physical sweeper (over anything in D rank).

 

[Scarfire]

I only play normals and hover around 1600. Here are my thoughts:

A -> C

I don't use Blissey because its not my playstyle, but what I've seen when playing against another normal is that Blisseys are liabilities. Why is this thing A when Chansey is D? Its literally just a Chansey that doesn't need to rely on eviolite. Blissey's rank should be whatever Chansey's rank is +1. Chansey is D, Blissey should be C maximum. Additionally, when its main niche as a special tank becomes set-up fodder, its deadweight (see this replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2042418198 ).

Blissey's viability isn't based around Chanseys much at all; it is significantly better in this extremely hazard centric meta so the "doesn't need to rely on eviolite" part is...quite large. Beyond that we know its the best special sponge, status sponge, and rocker normal has on balance teams which are normals most consistent archetype at the moment. Terapogos is obviously a great pokemon with rocks as an option, but 9/10 times you want Terapogos to be used to offensively threaten otherwise bad matchups with stuff like calm mind, double dance, or specs. While Blissey being setup fodder can be true, its extremely set and matchup dependant. CM Variants can beat out a ton of stuff that Blissey loses out to (CM Flame/Shadow Ball vs Gholdengo), and Bloodmoon Ursaluna in the replay example is just one of few pokemon that beat it out regardless. Having pokemon that can muscle past it isn't enough to take away all its good qualities and drop it down so harshly

A -> B
I have P2 in my PU team because its this bulky, unkillable thing that does decent damage. But its not in my monotype team because thats all this thing is. You can't play P2 any other way. Compared to terapagos, you can argue that the little extra damage that terapagos gets is not justified for the recovery and extra bulk that P2 has, but terapagos can 1 shot some MU if specs and has the versatility to play utility, specs, or calm mind. It should be the same rank as terapagos (B).

I'm not gonna lie I voted this thing as S personally. Its one of the best pokemon on normals best builds, being able to make a handful of common matchups extremely painful. FoulPlay/Discharge/Ice Beam really manage to beat down Flying and Dragon, and it does decent into water as well so long as you remain mindful of Swamperts knock off. Trace lets it check a bunch of stuff in a pinch, being able to take on Gliscor's poison heal if its been toxic'd, or copying Chien-Pao's sword of ruin and cancelling it out and taking absolutely jack from Sacred Sword. It can also sponge hits from Archaludon by copying stamina and boosting up next to it, or taking out Baxcalibur with foul play. TL;DR it covers a plethora of big threats to the type and still applies hardcore offensive pressure while having options to play around with, such as twave or sub over Foul Play to disrupt other types.

A -> B
Ditto is as much as it is a very important member of your team as it is a complete liability against stall teams. It also can't late game sweep certain important MUs, such as chien-pao without sacred sword, baxcalibur w/out scale shot, gouging fire w/out dragon move, etc which is more common in high ladder.

This portion seems to be written on a poor understanding on how to use Ditto. It is not at all a liability against stall teams; Ditto being a near infinite PP generator is in fact the exact opposite, and forces stall teams into uncomfortable positions. As for the offensive matchups, it does not have to auto-win vs the type. Deterring the opponent from feeling comfortable setting up or just forcing out threats and claiming a kill in return is more than enough and provides massive value in one slot along with just simple speed control. Also, a copied Baxcalibur without scale shot should still dent opposing dragon.

 

[numeronormal]

Blissey's viability isn't based around Chanseys much at all; it is significantly better in this extremely hazard centric meta so the "doesn't need to rely on eviolite" part is...quite large. Beyond that we know its the best special sponge, status sponge, and rocker normal has on balance teams which are normals most consistent archetype at the moment. Terapogos is obviously a great pokemon with rocks as an option, but 9/10 times you want Terapogos to be used to offensively threaten otherwise bad matchups with stuff like calm mind, double dance, or specs. While Blissey being setup fodder can be true, its extremely set and matchup dependant. CM Variants can beat out a ton of stuff that Blissey loses out to (CM Flame/Shadow Ball vs Gholdengo), and Bloodmoon Ursaluna in the replay example is just one of few pokemon that beat it out regardless. Having pokemon that can muscle past it isn't enough to take away all its good qualities and drop it down so harshly

In someone's analysis for kingambit, they said it wasn't S tier but A tier because kingambit wasn't essential for a good dark team, but "it's for sure one of the best option of dark and clearly one of the best reason why u have to prep dark in all of u're team." I can't say the same for Blissey regarding A rank based on what you've said here, because Blissey appears to have multiple liabilities in different matchups and lacks the same level of indispensability or central role within its archetype. Being extremely susceptible to taunt/encore, a physical heavy MU, being used as setup fodder, while all of these are extremely set/matchup dependent, they collectively introduce a lot of vulnerability that undermines Blissey's consistency and effectiveness. Unlike kingambit in its respective situations, Blissey is essentially deadweight here. Drop to B.

I'm not gonna lie I voted this thing as S personally. Its one of the best pokemon on normals best builds, being able to make a handful of common matchups extremely painful. FoulPlay/Discharge/Ice Beam really manage to beat down Flying and Dragon, and it does decent into water as well so long as you remain mindful of Swamperts knock off. Trace lets it check a bunch of stuff in a pinch, being able to take on Gliscor's poison heal if its been toxic'd, or copying Chien-Pao's sword of ruin and cancelling it out and taking absolutely jack from Sacred Sword. It can also sponge hits from Archaludon by copying stamina and boosting up next to it, or taking out Baxcalibur with foul play. TL;DR it covers a plethora of big threats to the type and still applies hardcore offensive pressure while having options to play around with, such as twave or sub over Foul Play to disrupt other types.

I understand all these benefits that Porygon2 has but as it was said, there was a relationship between dependency on eviolite with this extremely hazard centric meta for Chansey. The same standard should apply to P2 here (even moreso because P2 isn't a complete tank, just really bulky).

This portion seems to be written on a poor understanding on how to use Ditto. It is not at all a liability against stall teams; Ditto being a near infinite PP generator is in fact the exact opposite, and forces stall teams into uncomfortable positions. As for the offensive matchups, it does not have to auto-win vs the type. Deterring the opponent from feeling comfortable setting up or just forcing out threats and claiming a kill in return is more than enough and provides massive value in one slot along with just simple speed control. Also, a copied Baxcalibur without scale shot should still dent opposing dragon.

I understand that you can use Ditto to copy one of the stall MU. Maybe you can recover off the damage or trade PPs. But unless they use knock off on you, you are still locked into choice scarf. That puts you into a losing position where opponent can manipulate the situation into their favor while you have to switch back and forth. (correct me if I am wrong but I just don't see how a scarfed ditto can effectively trade PP). Also ditto can't transform behind a substitute. Regarding the copied baxcalibur, what I was saying is if you are down to your last leg, Ditto sometimes isn't what you want to have. If I could only copy baxcalibur, and all they have is one of walking wake, kommo, kyurem, or garchomp, that EQ isn't going to do anything. But this is probably a Me problem.

 

[Vodoom]

Want to explain a bit the idea with the ranking of the mon mushamu put on the spotlight, cuz I saw some debate (especially for kingambitt)

Imo the main reason of why kingambitt and draga aren't S rank (and why I personnaly don't vote S for them), is just in the definition of a S rank. As I understand, a S rank is a mon u usually want to play in all of u're team cuz u don't have really better option, or the advantage to have this mon on your team is so important, that it is imposing a handicap on oneself to don't use them. To have an idea, it's a bit similar to play rain whithout peliper, u can ofc but it's clearly a handicap to don't play the mon (in rain).

For kingambitt, it's for sure one of the best option of dark and clearly one of the best reason why u have to prep dark in all of u're team. But the mon isn't essential for a good dark team, chien pao can take his mixed roll of cleaner + revenge killer. U lost the capacity to take one fairy move from flutter/ena and even valient, but it's not like kingambitt can hard on these mon (depend of the situation and of your spread, but in genaral u can't do that T1 whithout putting u in a difficult situation). Kingambitt help a lot in a majority of mu, and like mushamu said it's probably only the mu fight where kingambitt are the most useless (but like it stays kingambitt, it's not a deadmon). But all of these arguments just show how good and maybe/probably how broken the mon is. And not how the mon is essential for dark.

I have in mind this team I built for mwp vs shiraiki in dlc 1: https://pokepast.es/c921c3b546373d25
Imo dark in dlc 1 and dlc 2 are really similar (u will maybe have to prep keld, but king only help a bit for that, it's not a solution)

For dragapult, imo it's really similar. The mon is really usefull in a lot of situation and help u to correct some problem of a team with the set u want. your speed tier is too low ? Pult scarf ! U need a pivot for your tios/kyurem specs ? Pult is probably one of the best option for that ! A statut spreader can help u a lot to manage some annoying threat people can bring for manage drag ? Pult exist ! Etc.

But again I don't feel like the mon is essential for a good drag, imo only gouging can have this rank even if I can understand why baxca is also S rank.

Finally, yeah bramble could B rank imo. His capacity to compress role are really precious and explain why deci isn't play (with better offensive option and better statistic). But also I don't feel like it's wrong to have this mon in C rank, BO ghost are good but it's pretty 50/50 between HO ghost. U def can use bramble in HO team, but it means don't have another mon on him (maybe fross or spectrier ?) so it's more like a niche in this archetype. Same in BO, if u play bramble, u will probably not playing sinistscha. So u have to make a choice between the hazard control option of bramble and the huge advantage u have against water and ground when u have sinistscha.
I think the C rank are explain by that idea: It's not easy to bring bramble even if the mon have a solid niche

Honnestly all of that is only my opinion, I don't talk for other VR council member. But I hope it can help to understand some rank. I think they are also lot of mon who can be debate, a VR stay really subjective even if u can find a consensus. Imo the case of rock is also really interesting, it's funny to see how they don't really have a consensus of what I could see

why is barra A rank on water then :skull:

 

[Azick]

To be honest I think why I feel Kingambit should be S ranked ties into how I see the S rank. Rather than the S ranked Pokemon being essential for the type, I see S rank as Pokemon that define the type. Whether or not you can build a good team without it is put to the side and is really up to the builder. For example, even though there are Dark teams that can function well without Kingambit, it's still one of the most defining Pokemon on the type that is arguably just excellent considering what it does both offensively and defensively and is on 95% of teams as a result. At the same time it's also possible to say that you can build good Dark teams without Chien-pao and has happened before in a tournament setting.

If you put into perspective that S rank is equivalent of Pokemon you should always have, or are essential on the type, then a lot of the rankings become questionable. For example on Dragon it's possible to make good teams without Baxcalibur or Gouging Fire despite them being great. Baxcalibur's main shtick on Dragon is Ice Shard priority, but with a solid backbone it's possible to drop it for another teamslot. Gouging Fire doesn't do anything important for Dragon in terms of roles you have to cover, it's moreso just a really good Pokemon. Toxapex on Water is the textbook example of a Pokemon that isn't needed, but is ranked S because it's incredibly good. You can make Water teams without Toxapex, for example replacing it with Tentacruel for a similar role in which it has a similar typing and has Rapid Spin and pivoting with Flip Turn, not to mention Liquid Ooze for Horn Leech. With all these examples in mind, I personally feel like whether or not a Pokemon is needed on a type is mostly subjective and a number of people in tournaments have dropped well-known S ranked Pokemon with varying degrees of success.

On the other hand, it would be unfair to say that these Pokemon don't deserve S because some people don't use them on certain teams. Even with well known tournament players dropping the Pokemon successfully, it doesn't mean the Pokemon are any less viable. Gouging Fire, Baxcalibur, and Toxapex are undoubtedly amazing Pokemon and shouldn't be ever dropped to A in the current metagame. I would also argue that Kingambit isn't on the level of Greninja or Meowscarada, both of which are rather one dimension in what they do. This is mainly a personal preference from when I was on VR council, but having S ranked Pokemon and Pokemon that are needed on the type be two separate things helps with more creative building where players can personally determine whether or not a Pokemon is needed while having rankings that are easier to read.

Quite simply the sheet we use coorelates a "1" ranking aka S tier to "always use" and thats how its been since I joined VR council but that is an understandable viewpoint and something I always felt weirdly about in the past. However my viewpoint has since changed because of one key reason.

You keep bringing up the point of "people dropping x S rank mon in tour play" to back up why you view S rank differently, but I think this fails to see the target audience of the VR. Anyone with enough experience to be building teams in MWP/MPL etc is not someone who is referring to the VR. It's a beginner resource, and I don't think anyone building their first Dragon team should be dropping Baxcalibur, or anyone building their first Dark team should be dropping Pao. Sure, you can build a successful team while dropping an "always use" mon but that criteria is catered toward people whom are newer to building. In general in my rankings I try to balance what I would do personally when building, and what mons a new player should be focusing on.

Anyways hope that helps. I definitely get what you mean, and had the same issue in the past, but I think the system works well enough especially in relation to how I do my individual rankings.

Also I do actually agree that Gambit should be S tier but fraudttribute put that shit at a three so blame him

 

[Dragapult]

I think the upper reaches of the playerbase can have its head in the clouds w/r/t why people specifically newer players consult the VR and how that shapes an understanding of why mons "should" have certain placements. The ephemera of tour play just isn't terribly relevant to what a casual player would be looking for in a resource like this. Let's be perfectly real.

I hate to suggest creating work for other people or cluttering up the way VR has always been done but it would be real helpful to all of us I think to have one-liners for why various mons are ranked at S / A / B. While I hear where Cielau is coming from the reality is that the average player can't expect to maintain the same level of results playing Dark without Kingambit as with it. That much focus on tour wizards and 360MLG players kinda distorts understanding of what the reality of the tier is for newer/average players, which in reality are who the resources should be focusing on if we're talking about growing the tier. Most people should be using Kingambit on its respective types for insanely obvious reasons we don't need to ponder deeply. Same with Dragapult, or to give an example of an S mon actually ranked where it should be, Ogerpon-Hearthflame.

edit: ninja'd by Azick

got ninja'd by Vod above but was also wondering why a mon like Barraskewda is ranked A when the precedent for weather sweepers in the past (bar Exca b/c Exca is a crackhead) has been that if a weather is considered good, the setter itself is ranked A and the highest any possible sweeper in that archetype could be ranked is B b/c it isn't the most indispensible mon in that archetype

I understand all these benefits that Porygon2 has but as it was said, there was a relationship between dependency on eviolite with this extremely hazard centric meta for Chansey. The same standard should apply to P2 here (even moreso because P2 isn't a complete tank, just really bulky).

Glossing over Chansey and P2 having immensely different roles and existing within slightly different contexts.

If Blissey didn't exist it's possible Chansey would be perceived as decent despite its shortcomings. Blissey does exist though so Chansey is unviable regardless as it's directly outcompeted. Porygon2 and Porygon-Z (shitmon) are vastly different and Porygon2 has no direct competition for what it does, which is an incredible amount of role compression in BoltBeam, serving as a speedbump for physical sweepers, shitting on Gliscor, recovery, and utilizing Trace to force uncomfortable interactions. Is Porygon2 susceptible to Knock and hazards, sure. But there's no alternative for what it does, especially when paired with Ditto as a tandem to shut down fat builds. It's irrevocably one of the best mons on Normal if not second best behind Bloodmoon. I've got to agree with Scarfire here. I don't think Normal is viable without it.

I understand that you can use Ditto to copy one of the stall MU. Maybe you can recover off the damage or trade PPs. But unless they use knock off on you, you are still locked into choice scarf. That puts you into a losing position where opponent can manipulate the situation into their favor while you have to switch back and forth. (correct me if I am wrong but I just don't see how a scarfed ditto can effectively trade PP). Also ditto can't transform behind a substitute. Regarding the copied baxcalibur, what I was saying is if you are down to your last leg, Ditto sometimes isn't what you want to have. If I could only copy baxcalibur, and all they have is one of walking wake, kommo, kyurem, or garchomp, that EQ isn't going to do anything. But this is probably a Me problem.

It's still on you to play around this and prevent a scenario where you end up with your scarfed Ditto facing a Toxapex or smth in endgame. In some situations it might even be advantageous for Ditto to get knocked or copy something and Trick away its scarf or whatever. That's on the pilot to recognize and use situations to their advantage. Copying a +2 Dragon sweeper is just the most obvious application that most people will read and be prepared for. Consider the utility of the P2-Ditto duo vs. Poison for example. With solid play Amoonguss & Toxapex can be rendered complete dead weight unless T-Spikes are up and you don't have a spinner.

 

[numeronormal]

Porygon2 and Porygon-Z (shitmon) are vastly different and Porygon2 has no direct competition for what it does, which is an incredible amount of role compression in BoltBeam, serving as a speedbump for physical sweepers, shitting on Gliscor, recovery, and utilizing Trace to force uncomfortable interactions. Is Porygon2 susceptible to Knock and hazards, sure. But there's no alternative for what it does, especially when paired with Ditto as a tandem to shut down fat builds. It's irrevocably one of the best mons on Normal if not second best behind Bloodmoon. I've got to agree with Scarfire here. I don't think Normal is viable without it.

I made a normal account yesterday to play normal w/ porygon2 really quick. I played about 40ish games to about 1550, and honestly, my perception of P2 worsened. I didn't play the typical bulky mononormal (no Blissey/smeargle/cyclizar/chansey/etc), so that could be why it felt like a 5 v 6 the whole way. I used the smogon set/moves - it did a lot less damage than I thought it would have done, became another setup fodder, matching vs monorock, fighting, dragon was a lot weaker than usual (i didn't really see how discharge/ice beam/foul play beats dragon). I constantly worried about my eviolite knocked off and recover being only 8 pp. And every gliscor carried knock off today (to me eviolite for dead gliscor is not worth because I did not have trouble with gliscor before). The plus side was that monoflying was a lot easier than before and I could reliably switch to P2 if I wanted to. Again, it could've been because it had no synergy with my team and/or lack of experience with using it; otherwise, from reading this, it sounds like bulky normal is the only viable way to play normal, which I disagree with.

 

[Guzzles]

I made a normal account yesterday to play normal w/ porygon2 really quick. I played about 40ish games to about 1550, and honestly, my perception of P2 worsened. I didn't play the typical bulky mononormal (no Blissey/smeargle/cyclizar/chansey/etc), so that could be why it felt like a 5 v 6 the whole way. I used the smogon set/moves - it did a lot less damage than I thought it would have done, became another setup fodder, matching vs monorock, fighting, dragon was a lot weaker than usual (i didn't really see how discharge/ice beam/foul play beats dragon). I constantly worried about my eviolite knocked off and recover being only 8 pp. And every gliscor carried knock off today (to me eviolite for dead gliscor is not worth because I did not have trouble with gliscor before). The plus side was that monoflying was a lot easier than before and I could reliably switch to P2 if I wanted to. Again, it could've been because it had no synergy with my team and/or lack of experience with using it; otherwise, from reading this, it sounds like bulky normal is the only viable way to play normal, which I disagree with.

Balanced Normal is generally the most stable way to play Normal. P2 is generally super important for this and so on. Foul Play beats Dragon because Dragon tends to capitalise off of setup mons. It helps prevent Baxcal setting up, and if it does, chances are that you get a kill on it. Also, you can trace Archaludon’s Stamina and 1v1 it. There are plenty of situations where P2 is super useful with Trace and can really help with an opponent’s team. I’ve played matches where I trace Ogerpon-Wellspring’s Water Absorb to wall it and win, or yeah, tracing Regenerator against the Amoongus-Toxapex Poison core. I’d say Porygon2 is probably the mon that makes the vast majority of Normal teams “glue”, and I think it’s probably down to lack of experience and/or your team not building around it properly. It’s huge in discouraging the setup mons that a lot of the metagame revolves around and it has coverage with BoltBeam and further options. If anything, yeah, I would probably agree with the idea that it even deserves S-rank but I’m not overly bothered about the current placement given it’s with Ditto etc. which are just as pivotal. Generally this mon does not deserve a drop in rank at all.

 

[Bruxish supremacy]

As someone who is trying to get into monotype what are the top types??

 

[Scarfire]

As someone who is trying to get into monotype what are the top types??

Probably a question for metagame discussion thread, but short answer is types like Dragon, Fire, Flying, and Ground for the most part. Water/Dark/Steel/Fairy and a few other types are also pretty viable.

 

[boomp]

Also for those who are asking what the top types are you can always check Scarfire post https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...e-discussion-indigo-disk.3732581/post-9956757 in the metagame discussion. :D