Metagame Views From The Council

[ianlazerbeem]

Not sure I really agree with touching Tera Blast. Unlike defensive Tera which synergizes with your offensive tools, i.e Tera Flying Gambit go brr, Tera Blast is dependent on the risk/reward ratio, because it is a useless slot until you Tera, but normal offensive/defensive Tera never leaves you with dead slots.

For it to truly break a Pokemon, it has the break that ratio to the point where it being a dead slot most of the time doesn’t matter when it can easily 6-0 a team without a specific check. i.e Espathra and Eleki. Most of the top pokemon that were banned didn’t need Tera Blast to do so. Sneasler simply rocked CC/Gunk/Lash Out to hit everything. Magearna had SP + Dkiss along with all the coverage it would need anyways. Chien-Pao didn’t need Tera Blast when Tera Dark Crunch 2HKOd nearly everything anyways.

The only mon rn you could argue is broken because of Tera Blast is Volcarona who has near perfect coverage with either Tera Ground or Dragon. The rest do not need Tera Blast to be broken, nor is the risk/reward ratio skewed enough to make them broken with Tera Blast.

Serperior doesn’t even run Tera Blast that much these days because Sub-Seed + Defensive Tera is more consistent and less Tera reliant anyways. Enamorus doesn’t hit hard enough to break with Stellar Tera Blast, and Scarf Stellar keeps its weakness to SR. Iron Moth is the closest thing to Volcarona, but it is still not breaking through certain checks such as Ting-Lu. Gambit does run Tera Fairy Blast occasionally, but Gambit could still mow through some of its checks in several other ways. DD Kyu sets would be much worse without Tera Blast, but its other sets are the reason it was suspected in January. You might see some niche picks run Tera Blast, but nothing game breaking. The Tera Flying Blast CB Ttar example that was brought up. Um, I don’t think a slow wallbreaker with Tera Blast is anything to write home about. Plus a Tera Flying Ttar is now weak to rocks and is taking sand chip.

The issues with framing Tera Blast as an issue is most of the problematic elements in the tier are not caused by it.

I agree with 658Greninja, but would like to extend this to all the bans/suspects we've seen over the generation.

The ones who didn't need Tera Blast:
Flutter Mane: Fairy ghost is already perfect coverage for almost all your needs. Never saw any (serious) Tera Blast sets.
Last Respects and Shed Tail + their respective moves: Basculegion, Houndstone, Cyclizar, and Orthworm never ran Tera Blast because they had far more clearly broken moves to use instead.
Iron Bundle: Similarly to Flutter Mane, already had the perfect coverage in Freeze Dry + Water STAB. Would often Tera into it's own type for more power anyways.
Palafin: Already had pretty good coverage and didn't need to supplement it with Tera Blast. Would rather have the slot for Flip Turn (on Banded sets) or Taunt (on Bulk Up sets).
Annihilape: Once again, another case of perfect coverage.
Chi Yu: Too busy spamming its STABs to blow up everything.
Chien Pao: Good coverage with STABs + Sacred Sword, no reason to run Tera Blast.
Espathra: Already had Dazzling Gleam to hit Dark-type mons that would threaten to stop it's Stored Power sweep, and it didn't really need anything else when Stored Power would already heavily chunk resists.
Walking Wake: Good enough STABs to muscle through most mons through sheer power alone, and would struggle to fit Tera Blast on its sets.
Magearna: One of it's many sets might've had a reason to run Tera Blast, but the vast majority of them didn't need to.
Zamazenta Crowned: While it couldn't always pack all the coverage it needed, Iron Defense Body Press sets were still strong enough to not require coverage in Tera Blast.
Urshifu Rapid-Strike: Once again, good STABs with a large enough movepool to hit most resists, with Swords Dance to sometimes force its way through checks anyways.
Zamazenta Hero: Same story as Zamazenta Crowned, just worse.
Baxcalibur: Yet another case of good enough coverage with STABs + one extra, this time being Earthquake.
Ogerpon Hearthflame: Could only same type Tera.
Roaring Moon: Hits everything it needs with coverage, and would often just Tera Flying to boost its Acrobatics anyways.
Gliscor: Was too busy setting spikes to bother attacking with Tera Blast.
Ursaluna Bloodmoon: It has a 140 bp STAB move and Ground STAB to hit most resists, as well as Body Press to jump any poor Blisseys trying to handle it.
Sneasler: Same as Roaring Moon, but weaker and faster.
Terapagos: Had Tera Blast, but better.
Sleep: ???
Archaludon: Already has perfect coverage with Electro Shot + Body Press, and no reason to run Tera Blast beyond it.

The ones who did "need" Tera Blast:
Volcarona: The first mon who truly needed Tera Blast to become broken. Tera Blast allowed it to patch up the missing holes in its coverage, turning Volcarona into a dangerous matchup moth who could choose from a wide variety of sets and Tera types to sweep.
Regileki: "Hey what if we gave the mon balanced by having a horrible movepool the perfect coverage". Unsurprisingly, Tera Blast was 100% the thing that pushed it over the edge.
Kingambit: While Tera Fairy Tera Blast sets can be potent, as Greninja stated, its non Tera Blast sets are just as strong, if not stronger, and more common as well.
Kyurem: The most potent set was its special Specs set, and while Dragon Dance sets might've preferred to run Tera Blast, you could also make a very fair argument that Earth Power/Freeze Dry would be better in that slot to hit key checks, without losing any of its potency. Earth Power can hit Archaludon without boosting it to insane levels of defense, while Freeze Dry blew up Dondozo.

So out of all the bans/suspects in this generation, we have had 20 (21 if we count Houndstone, and 22 if we count the moves) bans that weren't related to Tera Blast, and 4 that were. Of the four, only 2 can be argued to be directly a fault of Tera Blast.

Meanwhile, what mons in OU even run Tera Blast nowadays?
Gambit and Volc were both already covered in the list above, so I'm not going to go over them again.
Enamorus and Serperior are the two clear picks, but can you really say either of them are broken, or made broken by Tera Blast?
Dragapult? Dragon Dance sets aren't very common nor that good, and sometimes people just run Phantom Force instead.
Raging Bolt? Similarly to Gambit, Tera Fairy Tera Blast can be strong, but Thunderbolt is just as reliable if not better, and Weather Ball sets are free, better Tera Blast anyways.

Tera Blast was never the issue for the vast majority of this generation, and I see no reason to look into it now.

There's a common thread with both these takes on Tera blast and it's that the argument boils down to "Tera blast is not THE issue with the tier" - let's expand on this statement. The phrasing, "the issue in the tier," implies that there is one singular problem in the tier that removing will fix all problems. This is of course a ridiculous assertion, but for some reason it's the logic being applied to a Tera blast ban here. "Single-handedly fixes the tier" has never been the criteria for a ban before - why is this the requirement for action against Tera blast? Tera blast single handedly allows every Pokémon to be a lure to every Pokémon, this has been the case since launch, sure it contributes to the tier, which is to say it makes setup sweepers extremely cracked because they can use a 3rd stab of whatever type they want. Would removing Tera blast make gen 9 ou a perfect beautiful tier? Maybe not. Would it make it better? Probably. I think it's best to start there rather than cast the idea aside for no good reason. If you had a gun with no bullets, would you turn down a bullet for not being silver?

 

[Heatranator]

There's a common thread with both these takes on Tera blast and it's that the argument boils down to "Tera blast is not THE issue with the tier" - let's expand on this statement. The phrasing, "the issue in the tier," implies that there is one singular problem in the tier that removing will fix all problems. This is of course a ridiculous assertion, but for some reason it's the logic being applied to a Tera blast ban here. "Single-handedly fixes the tier" has never been the criteria for a ban before - why is this the requirement for action against Tera blast? Tera blast single handedly allows every Pokémon to be a lure to every Pokémon, this has been the case since launch, sure it contributes to the tier, which is to say it makes setup sweepers extremely cracked because they can use a 3rd stab of whatever type they want. Would removing Tera blast make gen 9 ou a perfect beautiful tier? Maybe not. Would it make it better? Probably. I think it's best to start there rather than cast the idea aside for no good reason

While I do agree with your statements, the reason why people are adverse to it is that because it won't fix the tier, people will then be hesistant to ban tera. While that is a ridiculous notion as we could simply say "okay, we know can move onto tera since it did help a bit", people wouldn't see it that way. They would think "oh, action on tera didn't make it majorly better, let's not touch it." I think it would be better to do the whole yard and ban tera outright, if we are going to touch tera at all, to not have this kind of scenario. At least that's from what I could see why people would be adverse to a tera blast ban. Again, agree with you that banning tera blast would be better than doing nothing since it has the least amount of collatoral, but casuals may not see it that way.

 

[jackuzzler]

not going to make a long post and also not going to argue anything to death -- just going to challenge/address some criticisms to my post or as a result of my post. this is probably my last post unless someone completely disregards my arguments.

because it is a useless slot until you Tera,

yeah this is true, but this is just true for basically any coverage move. a useless spot. the major difference being is that tera gives you STAB and flips defensive matchups at the cost of giving up tera. Garchomp runs fire fang on the standard SD set in SS OU because of corviknight/skarm/ferro. but not every team requires garchomp to use fire fang to sweep. Volcarona can sweep with just fire + bug coverage if the team is weakened enough and tera blast can oftentimes win the game against mons like glowking.

Um, I don’t think a slow wallbreaker with Tera Blast is anything to write home about. Plus a Tera Flying Ttar is now weak to rocks and is taking sand chip.

it's a dragon dance tyranitar set, not CB. this is the team and i got to around 1950 on ladder with it. it was also brought in SPL. also this isn't SPL discussion but this was some of the weirdest teams I've seen in SV. that was a very unfavourable matchup for garay oak ironically too. tera blast allows sweepers to set up and kill mons not usually able to kill which in turn. obviously tera flying ttar is now weak to rocks, but you're teraing it to win the game, not worried about the sand chip (offset by lefties) and SR damage (you're winning the game). ttar is able to set up on zamazenta and great tusk very easily and teams lacking a corviknight, skarmory (situationally) or dondozo (counter) will lose the game on the spot. I laughed at this set when I first saw it, but it's very real and threatening and I don't think there's any reason another very strong pokemon that lacks coverage to be a threatening sweeper.

Meanwhile, what mons in OU even run Tera Blast nowadays?

What mons ran sleep viably in OU? Iron Valiant, Darkrai, Amoonguss? Those clearly weren't the problem, sleep was. It's no different with Volcarona, clearly made broken by a mechanic available to multiple pokemon that can abuse it in a similar, maybe not to the same degree, but still a notable one. I'm not trying to draw comparisons of sleep to tera blast, but more so that the # (so long that # is above 1) of abusers of a mechanic/move does not impact how we should tier on it.

I agree with 658Greninja, but would like to extend this to all the bans/suspects we've seen over the generation.

I think this is an extremely flawed argument (as in your entire post) -- yes, all these blatantly broken mons in retrospect didn't need Tera Blast because they had absurdly strong STABs and perfect coverage. The point is, Tera Blast can basically give mons like Volcarona perfect coverage where the mon itself is not at all broken.

Enamorus and Serperior are the two clear picks, but can you really say either of them are broken, or made broken by Tera Blast?

I say Enamorus is a bit of a different case because of its stellar tera, Serperior usually opts for a coverage tera because Leaf Storm is better at boosting anyway as opposed to Contrary Stellar. Having to guess what tera Serperior is running for coverage is a nightmare just like it is guessing if the Volcarona is tera dragon water or ground. Like I said earlier, to a lesser extent but that doesn't mean it's healthy or adds anything to the tier.

Tera Blast is also a fairly weak move.

Whoever told you 80 BP with STAB with 0 drawback is weak is lying to you. Is STAB Shadow Ball weak?

The issues with framing Tera Blast as an issue is most of the problematic elements in the tier are not caused by it.

Most is the operative word, and I would support a Roaring Moon or Raging Bolt suspect before Tera Blast, but I simply believe suspecting Volcarona over Tera Blast would be a severe tiering mistake as Tera Blast is clearly what makes Volcarona broken, along with adding no value to the tier. Giving mons the ability to run any coverage it wants with STAB, physical if it needs to be is everything Hidden Power wishes it was. I've already gave examples of Tera Blast being able to carry an unmon (at least in sweeping ability) to basically 6-0 unsuspecting teams (and who preps for Tera Blast Flying TTar in the builder, this was just a recent revelation that saw some usage). There is surely other mons out there that can perform similarly to Tyranitar in this sense.

I also want to be very clear about this, no I don't think Tera Blast should be banned because of Tyranitar. It's also just an example of how matchup fishy tera blast is as well, which imo is super unenjoyable and a stress in the builder either.

anyways i apologize if this post read poorly, it is late and i just saw these posts now, and wanted to address them as i believed they really gave no real arguments to not ban tera blast and (potentially?) misunderstood my previous post.

 

[Magcargo]

Pretty much any setup sweeper can viably run Tera Blast. I've used it / seen it used on Gambit, Ghold, Valiant, Exca, Darkrai, Lilligant-H, Volcarona, etc. and in most cases it is an incredibly effective tool in dismantling normal counterplay to these Pokemon. The fact is, having a neutral 80 BP special move is already solid enough on some Pokemon like Volc and Ghold to deal decent neutral damage to common switch-ins after a boost, so its arguably not even that high of an oppurtunity cost. Physical sweepers have it worse, but Tera Blast in general just exponentionally increases the amount of set variety that these sweepers can viably run & creates some very lethal combinations such as, say Tera Blast Fire Kyurem + Kingambit or Tera Blast Dragon Volcarona + Ogerpon-W.

A common complaint is threat saturation. Removing Tera Blast would go a long way in reeling the amount of viable sets the top threats such as Kyurem or Kingambit can run w/o removing Tera as a whole.

 

[Heatranator]

Pretty much any setup sweeper can viably run Tera Blast. I've used it / seen it used on Gambit, Ghold, Valiant, Exca, Darkrai, Lilligant-H, Volcarona, etc. and in most cases it is an incredibly effective tool in dismantling normal counterplay to these Pokemon. The fact is, having a neutral 80 BP special move is already solid enough on some Pokemon like Volc and Ghold to deal decent neutral damage to common switch-ins after a boost, so its arguably not even that high of an oppurtunity cost. Physical sweepers have it worse, but Tera Blast in general just exponentionally increases the amount of set variety that these sweepers can viably run & creates some very lethal combinations such as, say Tera Blast Fire Kyurem + Kingambit or Tera Blast Dragon Volcarona + Ogerpon-W.

A common complaint is threat saturation. Removing Tera Blast would go a long way in reeling the amount of viable sets the top threats such as Kyurem or Kingambit can run.

I cannot tell you the amount of times I have seen volcs use tera blast un-tera'd to get some more chip off on a mon when they are about to faint. It gives a lot of matchup fishing. For example, if serp doesn't have tera ground, it is countered by heatran, but if it does, it is countered by skarm, corv and dragonite. It makes things very awkward and can lead to progress no matter what. Reminder that they can stack multiple of these mons and if they meet one of these mons, they can just choose not to tera.
It kinda just makes things easier as something like volc wouldn't be nearly as matchup fishy as it is. If hidden power which was 70 bp before gen 6, but you had to lose iv's to get them, or 60 bp after gen 6, was an amazing tool, then just imagine that but you get stab and it is 80 bp. And before you say "oh but teraing is a big opportunity cost", look at Gen 5 gems. Most of the time, you tera for one mon to break through them if you are using tera blast. Most teams only have one steel type, so serp wouldn't mind if it is a one time thing.

 

[Adamant Nature]

Banning Tera blast is just tip toeing around Tera. Full on Stockholm syndrome with a Pokémon mechanic lol.

Why ban a move used by like 2 Pokémon? I think it’s crazy to suggest that this move is too strong across all Pokémon. Didn’t bridge just get banned because electro shot is too much? Or rage monkey?

using 80-bp normal moves for “chip” is not good. Nothing uses swift or hyper beam.

and match-up fishy? This is just goofy. I can “fish” against any HO team just by running scarf meowscarada. For as long as the game is played w/o open teams, matches are always fishable with unexpected sets. Like… run a trick room team at the right time of day and you can climb to top ladder. I say all this as a very seasoned cheese monger.

if we’re going to accept the massive momentum swings and unpredictably that Tera brings, then at least ban all the stuff that just 6-0s when it clicks the cheat button at the right time.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Pretty much any setup sweeper can viably run Tera Blast. I've used it / seen it used on Gambit, Ghold, Valiant, Exca, Darkrai, Lilligant-H, Volcarona, etc. and in most cases it is an incredibly effective tool in dismantling normal counterplay to these Pokemon. The fact is, having a neutral 80 BP special move is already solid enough on some Pokemon like Volc and Ghold to deal decent neutral damage to common switch-ins after a boost, so its arguably not even that high of an oppurtunity cost. Physical sweepers have it worse, but Tera Blast in general just exponentionally increases the amount of set variety that these sweepers can viably run & creates some very lethal combinations such as, say Tera Blast Fire Kyurem + Kingambit or Tera Blast Dragon Volcarona + Ogerpon-W.

A common complaint is threat saturation. Removing Tera Blast would go a long way in reeling the amount of viable sets the top threats such as Kyurem or Kingambit can run w/o removing Tera as a whole.

I hope you're correct, but I don't see a balanced meta happening anytime soon as long as tera is around. But if people are really desperate to keep tera around, might as well give it a try (the mons getting banned in future won't miss tera blast anyway)

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Banning Tera blast is just tip toeing around Tera. Full on Stockholm syndrome with a Pokémon mechanic lol.

Why ban a move used by like 2 Pokémon? I think it’s crazy to suggest that this move is too strong across all Pokémon. Didn’t bridge just get banned because electro shot is too much? Or rage monkey?

using 80-bp normal moves for “chip” is not good. Nothing uses swift or hyper beam.

and match-up fishy? This is just goofy. I can “fish” against any HO team just by running scarf meowscarada. For as long as the game is played w/o open teams, matches are always fishable with unexpected sets. Like… run a trick room team at the right time of day and you can climb to top ladder. I say all this as a very seasoned cheese monger.

if we’re going to accept the massive momentum swings and unpredictably that Tera brings, then at least ban all the stuff that just 6-0s when it clicks the cheat button at the right time.

That's my issue with banning tera blast as well, it doesn't solve anything and just kinda tiptoes around the actual issue and feels like a bandaid fix that only solves a fraction of the issues

 

[Dive Missile]

i think part of the idea of a tera blast ban is the subtext that tera as a whole won't be banned, which is pretty likely. it's way too popular amongst both casuals and top players to just be completely deleted, so a tera blast ban is something that makes tera less cheesy while being more likely to actually go through.

 

[TCTphantom]

i'm going to once again propose the idea of making some sort of "gods among us" tournament series with one uber unbanned for each tour. i don't believe any ubers should drop currently or in the future of sv (except for terapagos and regieleki in the event of a tera ban), but it would provide valuable insight into why ubers should generally stay ubers, which many people on this forum apparently don't seem to grasp. there would be shortcomings, obviously, because things would be overprepared for, but at minimum we'd have some actual concrete data to point to and say "look how much prep they had to do". it might also be fun, who knows. would anyone else be interested in this?

I have been saying this for weeks now. It would at worst be a good containment for a lot of the unban discussion. I think that only one Ubers mon has a remote case for an unban right now, and even then I think that unbanning it right now is an objectively bad idea. It would be a nice way to stop people from suggesting every other day that we should retest annihilape or drop lugia or some garbo like that. I think revisiting Ubers in concept inst a terrible idea. At worst, we have situations like with Magearna where it was broken, and we banned it. That's a nice piece of data. At best, we have mons like Zamazenta Hero, Darkrai, Volcarona, Gliscor, or Deoxys Speed that have settled into the meta nicely. Obviously, most of the current ubers would not be in the latter camp, which is why i think testing your Lugias or Solgaleos or Giratina Os is a bad idea. The only one I would entertain discussing is Zamazenta Crowned, which I think does have some valid reasons to come down and would potentially help offset some of our meta issues. And once again, even if I think testing ZamC is a worthwhile idea, its not something I would do until people feel the tier is a bit more stable.

Also I wouldnt mind a Tera Blast ban, so I would echo that idea.

 

[ausma]

Why ban a move used by like 2 Pokémon? I think it’s crazy to suggest that this move is too strong across all Pokémon. Didn’t bridge just get banned because electro shot is too much? Or rage monkey?

1: it is used by far more than two pokemon

in general, i'm really sick of the pro-tera blast argument of "not many pokemon use it" when that both misses the point of discussing it and is also just... wrong??? like sure, for many pokemon it's not a top choice, but that doesn't change the fact that (shocker) autonomous high power coverage is fundamentally strong as a tool for moveslot compression and getting random super effective coverage. these can be used across a wide range of pokemon, and have been. please stop making this argument

2: moves do not need to be directly broken on every single user in order to be evaluated.

baton pass is a good example of this. it is a fundamentally interaction-warping move on a wide range of pokemon that is far too easy to enable recipients with for what it provides. by this logic, baton pass should be unbanned, which i don't think anybody who has played more than 10 games of sv ou would actively try to suggest.

3: wtf is the last part of this trying to argue? like i am genuinely baffled. if you're going to try and combat an argument at least make your counterargument actually adhere to the subject of conversation

in either case i am tera blast's biggest hater and also will probably make a more dedicated writeup on it later. for now, i just want to say that if you're against touching tera blast, to actually tackle the dynamics of tera blast itself with the pokemon that would make use of it and explain how the tera blast defender can reasonably be expected to constantly scout for it in this current metagame climate.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Why ban a move used by like 2 Pokémon? I think it’s crazy to suggest that this move is too strong across all Pokémon. Didn’t bridge just get banned because electro shot is too much? Or rage monkey?

as much as i hate the idea of a tera blast ban, i hate this argument even more, so i'm going to back ausma up with statistics so we can see exactly how many pokemon are running this move. looking at last month's stats (the 1695 ones, since that's what we use for tier shifts), it was run enough to mention on eight mons in ou proper:

furthermore, if we expand our search premises to include all 115 mons on the vr, we can also include for a total of twenty-three viable pokemon that run tera blast a significant amount, which is exactly one-fifth of all ou-viable pokemon. some run it as a niche option, some have it as a core part of their movesets, but you have to prepare for it on all of them. i personally don't view tera blast as an issue, but the numbers don't lie: a lot of things run it

also, even if this argument weren't demonstrably statistically incorrect, it'd still be wrong. something having low usage stats, or only being used on a few mons, or anything like that is completely irrelevant to the question of "is this worthy of a ban or not". exactly one mon was running king's rock in any serious capacity when the item was banned (two if we're being really generous and including beat up weavile). exactly zero mons were running sing, or have ever run sing, or will ever run sing in the future, and that doesn't make sing any less uncompetitive because it's still a sleep move. the intrinsic properties of the move are what's under debate here, not how many people put the move on their mon

 

[ianlazerbeem]

While I do agree with your statements, the reason why people are adverse to it is that because it won't fix the tier, people will then be hesistant to ban tera. While that is a ridiculous notion as we could simply say "okay, we know can move onto tera since it did help a bit", people wouldn't see it that way. They would think "oh, action on tera didn't make it majorly better, let's not touch it." I think it would be better to do the whole yard and ban tera outright, if we are going to touch tera at all, to not have this kind of scenario. At least that's from what I could see why people would be adverse to a tera blast ban. Again, agree with you that banning tera blast would be better than doing nothing since it has the least amount of collatoral, but casuals may not see it that way.

Banning Tera blast is just tip toeing around Tera. Full on Stockholm syndrome with a Pokémon mechanic lol.

Why ban a move used by like 2 Pokémon? I think it’s crazy to suggest that this move is too strong across all Pokémon. Didn’t bridge just get banned because electro shot is too much? Or rage monkey?

using 80-bp normal moves for “chip” is not good. Nothing uses swift or hyper beam.

and match-up fishy? This is just goofy. I can “fish” against any HO team just by running scarf meowscarada. For as long as the game is played w/o open teams, matches are always fishable with unexpected sets. Like… run a trick room team at the right time of day and you can climb to top ladder. I say all this as a very seasoned cheese monger.

if we’re going to accept the massive momentum swings and unpredictably that Tera brings, then at least ban all the stuff that just 6-0s when it clicks the cheat button at the right time.

That's my issue with banning tera blast as well, it doesn't solve anything and just kinda tiptoes around the actual issue and feels like a bandaid fix that only solves a fraction of the issues

This is assumption and I dont think action on Tera blast, from an anti Tera perspective, will have the effect on Tera ban you think it does. I'm not seeing the correlation between "action on Tera didn't make it majorly better" and "let's not touch it." If Terastalization is still a problem in SV OU after a Tera blast ban, "no action" is not exactly the thought inspired. If action against Tera blast proves insufficient in containing Tera, i believe it would only cause more people to support a full ban. I personally have never followed "this isn't enough" with "i want no more" - have you?

 

[TheTraininator]

I want to weigh in on one particular aspect of this topic, which is the nature of “Tera Blast’s viable users”.

1: it is used by far more than two pokemon

as much as i hate the idea of a tera blast ban, i hate this argument even more, so i'm going to back ausma up with statistics so we can see exactly how many pokemon are running this move. looking at last month's stats (the 1695 ones, since that's what we use for tier shifts), it was run enough to mention on eight mons in ou proper:

furthermore, if we expand our search premises to include all 115 mons on the vr, we can also include for a total of twenty-three viable pokemon that run tera blast a significant amount, which is exactly one-fifth of all ou-viable pokemon.

If anything, I think this is an argument in favor of Tera Blast remaining legal. It’s a widely used/considered option, but has only genuinely proven to be an issue on 3 users, (Espathra, Regieleki, and Volcarona), only 2 of which are currently banned. There is no argument to be made that it is broken on anything close to a majority of its users. But on that topic:

2: moves do not need to be directly broken on every single user in order to be evaluated.

In a vacuum, this is a salient point. I’m definitely of the belief that there is a threshold where a tool doesn’t have to break everything that can use it for it to be capable of being banworthy; who cares if Shadow Tag doesn’t break Gothita in OU if it breaks Gothorita in Ubers, right? However, what this argument ignores is the massive elephant in the room, which is Tera Blast’s distribution. Every Pokémon in Scarlet and Violet bar 5, (Magikarp, Ditto, Cosmog, Cosmoem, and Terapagos), is capable of using this move, essentially making it univeral distribution, and as we established, it only breaks 3. For the sake of simplicity, let’s just ignore alternate forms like regional variants and the different Oricorios and such and simply count the 733 Pokémon actually in Scarlet in Violet currently; counting the currently legal Volcarona, Tera Blast manages to break 0.4% of the Pokémon that get the move. This is so far removed from the burden of proof necessary to show that the tool is the problem rather than specific abusers of it that it’s a total non-starter of an argument; Tera Blast is fundamentally not a broken move by our standard, (that being the operative keyword), definitions of what constitutes a broken move.

baton pass is a good example of this. it is a fundamentally interaction-warping move on a wide range of pokemon that is far too easy to enable recipients with for what it provides. by this logic, baton pass should be unbanned, which i don't think anybody who has played more than 10 games of sv ou would actively try to suggest.

This feels like an incredibly disingenuous comparison to me. Baton Pass and Tera Blast are incredibly far removed in design and can’t be compared to one another because Baton Pass actively synergizes with itself to enable an entire playstyle whereas Tera Blast has negative synergy with itself. Baton Pass only needs to be broken on a few users because a) those users work together to shore up the individual weaknesses of each other, such as Soundproof Mr. Mime blocking Roar while Magic Bounce Espeon blocks Whirlwind, and b) the actual abusers of the move are the recipients of the Baton Pass chain, which by the very nature of Baton Pass can be essentially anything. Baton Pass as a playstyle is uninteractive, matchup fishy, and breaks balancing conventions by allowing setup opportunities for Pokémon oftentimes balanced around not being able to set up for one reason or another. I get the argument that Tera Blast breaks balancing conventions too by giving Pokémon better freedom to pick and choose their checks, but surely there are better moves to compare to Tera Blast?

At any rate, despite all of what I just typed, I think there is an actual argument to be made on favor of banning Tera Blast, and that is the argument about whether the move is fundamentally a healthy element of the metagame. If you wanted to make the argument that it’s a net subtractive metagame element that doesn’t hold a place in a competitive environment, that is something I feel is far more entertain-able as an argument. Even so, I don’t think I’d agree because it clearly has such a massive opportunity cost to its use compared to other such comparable elements while simultaneously enabling interesting, consistent options across multiple tiers that I mostly just see it as comparable to, say, Stored Power, where while I’m not sure I personally would design a move like that, I also don’t think I would wholesale declare it an element that has no place across multiple metagames.

 

[JunkoAJ]

Tera Blast is also a fairly weak move. For Bolt, who is slow, struggles to make good use of it unless it's in a perfect position to use it. Most of the Dark and Fighting types die to Thunderclap anyway, and Dragons get obliterated by Draco. Defensive Tera fairy is good but imo Bolt doesn't really benefit much from tera blast, if at all.

The only mons who make best use of Terablast are mons who are desperate for a specific coverage. Vast majority of OU mons don't have that issue

I don't really have a horse in this race but I just needed to talk about this point bc Tera Blast is effectively 120 BP when Tera'd due to STAB (which is the vast majority of time it's used) is really fucking strong lmfao

 

[Revelation]

I truly see no value in even discussing Tera Blast when all the problems with it are moot with Tera being banned. Aside from getting to continue ignoring the biggest issue with the metagame.

Regardless, it is disingenuous to claim hardly anything is even using Tera Blast. Even if not many OU staples are running it on standard sets, the looming threat of a surprise Tera/Blast is more than enough to influence games. The customisation afforded by Tera/Blast is always going to be relevant when teambuilding and is one of the biggest issues pushing them over the edge.

Besides that, even though lower tiers don’t have any bearing on OU, plenty of Pokémon lower down use the move and a potential Tera Blast ban would presumably affect every lower tier.

I get that discussion isn’t necessarily bad but I do just think this is more of the futility so many players are frustrated with. Tera is so obviously overpowered and overbearing. Being able to completely flip losing matchups on any one of your 6 Pokémon should never have even been entertained as balanced to begin with. Tera has proven time and again to be a problem offensively on offensive Pokémon, defensively on defensive Pokémon and even defensively on offensive Pokémon.

The mechanic is inherently broken and most, if not all, reasons to doubt that fact can be chalked up to broken-checking-broken obfuscating it.

 

[658Greninja]

Regardless of how many ban-Tera Blast arguments there are, I’m just not seeing it.

But claiming only a few mons use it is false.

Sleep was brought up as a comparison to Tera Blast, but the difference is that Sleep was always the best option on Pokemon that ran sleep moves besides Valiant. There is simply no control over how many turns it will take to wake up and those turns matter too much in an aggressive meta like SV OU. It became about fishing for that 60/75% chance to potentially win the game and boiled down to sacking your worst poke to sleep. Not to mention sleep clause breaks the philosophy of being as cartridge accurate as possible. Tera Blast is not like this.

Let’s break down the Tera Blast users from S tier to B- in order of the most common to least common.

Almost Always Runs Tera Blast

Volcarona can be argued for a suspect test, being one of the few mons such as Espathra and Eleki that are broken because of Tera Blast. However this is only true for one user of Tera Blast. Even with Tera Blast Stellar, Enamorus is not breaking through defensive cores without support, and Tera Blast Ghost sets could be scouted. Tera Ground Moth tends to run Fiery/Sludge/Dgleam/Tera Ground for that near perfect coverage. Dgleam is needed because Dragons could easily pick it off otherwise, but it also would want Substitute for Gambit Sucker or to rack up Fiery Dance boosts. Even with Tera Blast, checks like Ting-Lu still remain solid against it, and Weavile/Kyu can pick it off if it Terastilizes, especially since Gking + Weavile/Kyu is a common pairing. The same goes for Rillatran. Serperior has been running either Tera Ground, Rock, Fire, or Ghost since the beginning of Gen 9 but I would argue defensive Tera with Sub-Seed is better on it rn cause Weavile and Dragapult are very common mons that will kill you behind a Sub, so being able to Tera Steel in front of them is a big win.

Sometimes Runs Tera Blast

Gambit runs Tera Blast Fairy every now and then since its good neutral coverage that also hits Tusk/Zama. Imo Gambit is starting to become a problem again, but this isn’t due to Tera Blast, its cause of everything else about Kingambit. DD Kyu commonly runs Tera Ground/Fire Blast. Kyurem is still broken, but it is mainly due to its perfect Ice + Ground coverage and several other sets like Specs, HDB, Sub, and Mixed. You might see Excadrill run Tera Electric or Ice Blast to hit past its checks. Even with that, checks like Zama still work well vs it, plus Drill is dependent on Sand which is not super good rn. Comfey has popped off recently on G-Terrain HO, and it sometimes runs Tera Blast for the likes of Kingambit or Gholdengo, but it is still a Comfey, it isn’t strong without multiple CM boosts, and Comfey doesn’t need it most of the time.

Occasionally Runs Tera Blast

You may sometimes see Tera Blast Ghost on CB or DD Pult. However like with offensive Teras, clicking Tera Ghost is matchup dependent and you have to be sure it is the right play before clicking it. Dnite occasionally runs Tera Blast Flying as nice boosted STAB that also breaks through Zama. Though since Normal/Flying is terrible offensively, you pretty much have to run Fire Punch to break through Skarm on DD sets, which still can’t break through Gliscor who puts it on a timer via Toxic. If you give up E-Speed for Ice Spinner, you’re basically running a bad Roaring Moon. CB Dnite also prefers Tera Normal to remove the SR weakness. Hydrapple runs Tera Blast Ice on the sample Stall team, but defensive Tera Blasts often aren’t optimal, again, not broken. Since H-Lilli no longer can run Sleep Powder, Tera Blast Ghost becomes the next best thing, especially since Zapdos has fallen off.

Rarely Runs Tera Blast

Ghold ran Tera Blast Water a couple times in the Home meta to punish Cinderace and Heatran, but these days options like T-Wave and Recover with defensive Tera is better. I ran into a Tera Blast Fairy Moon once, but Knock/Acro/EQ or Taunt already hits its necessary targets. I ran CB Lando with Tera Blast Flying, but it doesn’t scream broken and giving it a SR weakness hurts its switch in opportunities. Mola very rarely ran Tera Blast Flying to punish Ogerpon-W, but like with Hydrapple, it’s doing it defensively. Not broken. Heatran could run Tera Blast to immediately trap targets like Ting-Lu. I ran a Tera Blast Fairy set in Home to directly one shot Dragapult and Baxcalibur, but the standard set is much more consistent. Heatran needs all the slots it could get. Cinderace every now and then runs Tera Blast Ice to OHKO Gliscor, and it has the added benefit of 2HKOing Tusk and OHKOing Lando. Unlike the others, Cinder mostly just uses Pyro/Court/U-Turn, so Tera Blast isn’t too bad of a dead slot. Since Dark/Fairy is good coverage and it also flips matchups with Specs Dragapult, Tera Blast Fairy is sometimes an option Darkrai runs. Though it already has a good coverage pool of Focus Miss and Sludge Bomb, so not something it needs to run. Iron Crown may occasionally run Tera Fairy Blast since its decent coverage or Tera Fighting Blast if it doesn’t wanna rely on Focus Miss. Again, Iron Crown is very inconsistent even with Tera, not something that should be on the radar. DD Tera Blast Flying Ttar was brought up as a legit set. It is impressive and sounds fun, but it is still a DD Ttar in 2024. Even at +1, Adamant Ttar is not outspeeding much, and at +2, its still outrun by Booster mons. Cool set, but I wouldn’t consider it an example of Tera Blast being uncompetitive. Volcanion used to run Tera Blast Fairy surprisingly frequent in Home, but that has died out in favor of Trapper sets and Specs.

I may have forgotten some other Tera abusers such as Iron Valiant which was brought up, but this is my stance.

Tera Blast only breaks Volcarona who was pretty much one moveset buff or mechanical change away from being broken. The broken mons that do run Tera Blast are not broken because of it. Most of the Tera Blast abusers either do not become broken with it, or would prefer other options over Tera Blast such as Gholdengo.

Also yes, for a move that requires you to burn a Tera to use, 80BP is not that strong, especially compared to Sball which is a free spammable move that has no drawback.

Here we see Iron Moth, Volcarona, and Serperior fail to OHKO Gking even with a boosted Tera Blast Ground.

+1 252 SpA Tera Ground Volcarona Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 276-326 (70 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 132 SpA Tera Ground Iron Moth Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 260-308 (65.9 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Tera Ground Serperior Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 248-294 (62.9 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So Slowking-G could still click Toxic to put them on a timer or pivot out.

The Tera Blast ban would not do much besides unbanning Regieleki or Espathra and keeping Volcarona balanced.

The main argument anti-Tera players have is that Tera flips matchups. Gambit sets up on Fighting types and Gholdengo sets up on Ground types. I would argue defensive Tera is more polarizing than offensive Tera. There is less of a risk and a greater benefit than turning 3HKOs into 2HKOs.

 

[Just A Shroom God]

I don't really have a horse in this race but I just needed to talk about this point bc Tera Blast is effectively 120 BP when Tera'd due to STAB (which is the vast majority of time it's used) is really fucking strong lmfao

These statements are pretty misleading because we usually don't account for STAB when mentioning move BP. For example, what if I told you Close Combat actually has 180 power on Great Tusk? Or Triple Axel having 180 power and knock off having ~150 power on Weavile? A lot of things sound silly when you account for STAB. Tera Blast has 80 base power.

 

[ant4456]

I don't get the "we should be talking about Tera, not Tera Blast"

mfer tera isn't being banned
just accept it lmao, it's not happening

If tera gets banned it'll be in 2037 after the 9th Policy Review thread on the topic. Like it is so far out of the realm of possibility at this point, I'm sorry. Every Youtuber would have to make videos to convince tons of casual players that Tera is bad for the game, and a bunch of skilled players who are used to it after a year would have to give up HO Tera metagame. And no, do not lie to me about how the metagame is actually diverse in terms of playstyle, look at SPL week by week and it's mostly HO or BO that plays by HO rules. This was a fair argument to make a few months ago, but nah it is definitely HO rn.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Regardless of how many ban-Tera Blast arguments there are, I’m just not seeing it.

But claiming only a few mons use it is false.

Sleep was brought up as a comparison to Tera Blast, but the difference is that Sleep was always the best option on Pokemon that ran sleep moves besides Valiant. There is simply no control over how many turns it will take to wake up and those turns matter too much in an aggressive meta like SV OU. It became about fishing for that 60/75% chance to potentially win the game and boiled down to sacking your worst poke to sleep. Not to mention sleep clause breaks the philosophy of being as cartridge accurate as possible. Tera Blast is not like this.

Let’s break down the Tera Blast users from S tier to B- in order of the most common to least common.

Almost Always Runs Tera Blast
View attachment 606050View attachment 606051View attachment 606052View attachment 606053
Volcarona can be argued for a suspect test, being one of the few mons such as Espathra and Eleki that are broken because of Tera Blast. However this is only true for one user of Tera Blast. Even with Tera Blast Stellar, Enamorus is not breaking through defensive cores without support, and Tera Blast Ghost sets could be scouted. Tera Ground Moth tends to run Fiery/Sludge/Dgleam/Tera Ground for that near perfect coverage. Dgleam is needed because Dragons could easily pick it off otherwise, but it also would want Substitute for Gambit Sucker or to rack up Fiery Dance boosts. Even with Tera Blast, checks like Ting-Lu still remain solid against it, and Weavile/Kyu can pick it off if it Terastilizes, especially since Gking + Weavile/Kyu is a common pairing. The same goes for Rillatran. Serperior has been running either Tera Ground, Rock, Fire, or Ghost since the beginning of Gen 9 but I would argue defensive Tera with Sub-Seed is better on it rn cause Weavile and Dragapult are very common mons that will kill you behind a Sub, so being able to Tera Steel in front of them is a big win.

Sometimes Runs Tera Blast
View attachment 606054View attachment 606055View attachment 606056View attachment 606057
Gambit runs Tera Blast Fairy every now and then since its good neutral coverage that also hits Tusk/Zama. Imo Gambit is starting to become a problem again, but this isn’t due to Tera Blast, its cause of everything else about Kingambit. DD Kyu commonly runs Tera Ground/Fire Blast. Kyurem is still broken, but it is mainly due to its perfect Ice + Ground coverage and several other sets like Specs, HDB, Sub, and Mixed. You might see Excadrill run Tera Electric or Ice Blast to hit past its checks. Even with that, checks like Zama still work well vs it, plus Drill is dependent on Sand which is not super good rn. Comfey has popped off recently on G-Terrain HO, and it sometimes runs Tera Blast for the likes of Kingambit or Gholdengo, but it is still a Comfey, it isn’t strong without multiple CM boosts, and Comfey doesn’t need it most of the time.

Occasionally Runs Tera Blast
View attachment 606058View attachment 606059View attachment 606060View attachment 606061
You may sometimes see Tera Blast Ghost on CB or DD Pult. However like with offensive Teras, clicking Tera Ghost is matchup dependent and you have to be sure it is the right play before clicking it. Dnite occasionally runs Tera Blast Flying as nice boosted STAB that also breaks through Zama. Though since Normal/Flying is terrible offensively, you pretty much have to run Fire Punch to break through Skarm on DD sets, which still can’t break through Gliscor who puts it on a timer via Toxic. If you give up E-Speed for Ice Spinner, you’re basically running a bad Roaring Moon. CB Dnite also prefers Tera Normal to remove the SR weakness. Hydrapple runs Tera Blast Ice on the sample Stall team, but defensive Tera Blasts often aren’t optimal, again, not broken. Since H-Lilli no longer can run Sleep Powder, Tera Blast Ghost becomes the next best thing, especially since Zapdos has fallen off.

Rarely Runs Tera Blast
View attachment 606062View attachment 606063View attachment 606064View attachment 606065View attachment 606066View attachment 606067View attachment 606068View attachment 606069View attachment 606070View attachment 606071
Ghold ran Tera Blast Water a couple times in the Home meta to punish Cinderace and Heatran, but these days options like T-Wave and Recover with defensive Tera is better. I ran into a Tera Blast Fairy Moon once, but Knock/Acro/EQ or Taunt already hits its necessary targets. I ran CB Lando with Tera Blast Flying, but it doesn’t scream broken and giving it a SR weakness hurts its switch in opportunities. Mola very rarely ran Tera Blast Flying to punish Ogerpon-W, but like with Hydrapple, it’s doing it defensively. Not broken. Heatran could run Tera Blast to immediately trap targets like Ting-Lu. I ran a Tera Blast Fairy set in Home to directly one shot Dragapult and Baxcalibur, but the standard set is much more consistent. Heatran needs all the slots it could get. Cinderace every now and then runs Tera Blast Ice to OHKO Gliscor, and it has the added benefit of 2HKOing Tusk and OHKOing Lando. Unlike the others, Cinder mostly just uses Pyro/Court/U-Turn, so Tera Blast isn’t too bad of a dead slot. Since Dark/Fairy is good coverage and it also flips matchups with Specs Dragapult, Tera Blast Fairy is sometimes an option Darkrai runs. Though it already has a good coverage pool of Focus Miss and Sludge Bomb, so not something it needs to run. Iron Crown may occasionally run Tera Fairy Blast since its decent coverage or Tera Fighting Blast if it doesn’t wanna rely on Focus Miss. Again, Iron Crown is very inconsistent even with Tera, not something that should be on the radar. DD Tera Blast Flying Ttar was brought up as a legit set. It is impressive and sounds fun, but it is still a DD Ttar in 2024. Even at +1, Adamant Ttar is not outspeeding much, and at +2, its still outrun by Booster mons. Cool set, but I wouldn’t consider it an example of Tera Blast being uncompetitive. Volcanion used to run Tera Blast Fairy surprisingly frequent in Home, but that has died out in favor of Trapper sets and Specs.

I may have forgotten some other Tera abusers such as Iron Valiant which was brought up, but this is my stance.

Tera Blast only breaks Volcarona who was pretty much one moveset buff or mechanical change away from being broken. The broken mons that do run Tera Blast are not broken because of it. Most of the Tera Blast abusers either do not become broken with it, or would prefer other options over Tera Blast such as Gholdengo.

Also yes, for a move that requires you to burn a Tera to use, 80BP is not that strong, especially compared to Sball which is a free spammable move that has no drawback.

Here we see Iron Moth, Volcarona, and Serperior fail to OHKO Gking even with a boosted Tera Blast Ground.

+1 252 SpA Tera Ground Volcarona Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 276-326 (70 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 132 SpA Tera Ground Iron Moth Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 260-308 (65.9 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Tera Ground Serperior Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 248-294 (62.9 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So Slowking-G could still click Toxic to put them on a timer or pivot out.

The Tera Blast ban would not do much besides unbanning Regieleki or Espathra and keeping Volcarona balanced.

The main argument anti-Tera players have is that Tera flips matchups. Gambit sets up on Fighting types and Gholdengo sets up on Ground types. I would argue defensive Tera is more polarizing than offensive Tera. There is less of a risk and a greater benefit than turning 3HKOs into 2HKOs.

How does this post, focusing on individual "broken users," address Tera blast's strain in the teambuilder, as well as how cheesy of a move it is in the tournament scene? There's a difference between "makes individual Pokémon broken for sure" and "introduces unhealthy dynamics to competitive play." Are the idiotic lures Tera blast enables competitve?

I also find it funny that you used the argument "the difference is that Sleep was always the best option on Pokemon that ran sleep moves besides Valiant." Like bet? That's a pretty major exception, what are you actually saying with this statement? And is it even true? Lilligant H didn't always run sleep powder, SD 3 attacks was plenty common before the sleep ban. You sound like a washed up nicki Minaj fan, "she still had the second best selling album from a female rapper within a particular 3 weeks" like ok that's a very specific statistic

I don't understand how you can mention multiple cracked ass setup sweepers, call them broken, and conclude "it's only defensive Tera that people seem to have an issue with" as if being able to Tera into a type that's difficult to safely hit given your offensive options & getting a 3rd stab of your choice doesn't make sweepers extremely potent

"This Tera blast ban would not do anything but keep Volcarona balanced" ignoring that the first statement is just untrue why are you pretending that's not a good thing, Volcarona is offensively and defensively an amazing tool for dealing with Kingambit, valiant, Rillaboom, and other Pokémon that border on too much for, or introduce unhealthy dynamics to, the tier. And before you say "then why not just ban all of those" - as CTC said I want to play Pokémon not lack thereof. I'd rather disable the cheat button than turn OU into UU.

pulling up with Glowking calcs to say "it's not broken" is also hilarious, that's one degree removed from Clodsire or Dondozo calcs

These statements are pretty misleading because we usually don't account for stab. For example, what if I told you Close Combat actually has 180 power on Great Tusk? Or Triple Axel having 180 power and knock off having ~150 power on Weavile? A lot of things sound silly when you account for STAB

So Kingambit and Volcarona, apparently the most broken Pokémon ever according to the forums, are sweeping teams with a weak pathetic 80 BP coverage move?

 

[JunkoAJ]

These statements are pretty misleading because we usually don't account for STAB when mentioning move BP. For example, what if I told you Close Combat actually has 180 power on Great Tusk? Or Triple Axel having 180 power and knock off having ~150 power on Weavile? A lot of things sound silly when you account for STAB. Tera Blast has 80 base power.

I do get your point but it's mostly surrounding the idea of coverage right - when mons have coverage, they don't also have guaranteed STAB on that coverage unlike with Tera Blast. Darkrai using Ice Beam doesn't have STAB on it unless it chooses to be Tera Ice (literally why the fuck would it do that). But in order to gain the coverage that Tera Blast offers, the user has to be Terastallised which is the difference when talking about TB versus any other random coverage a mon could have.

 

[Just A Shroom God]

So Kingambit and Volcarona, apparently the most broken Pokémon ever according to the forums, are sweeping teams with a weak pathetic 80 BP coverage move?

chill out dude, there's no need to be this aggressive. I was simply pointing out the fact that Tera Blast is only 80 BP. Its strength comes from its ability to be always super-effective against specific targets. I was just saying that to not get started with the idea that Tera Blast is 120 Base Power naturally, since that'd be a whole different ballpark; you'd sweep teams with ONLY tera blast rather than using it to augment usual coverage. Regardless of whether you think TB is broken or not, it's certainly not THAT powerful.

 

[658Greninja]

How does this post, focusing on individual "broken users," address Tera blast's strain in the teambuilder, as well as how cheesy of a move it is in the tournament scene? There's a difference between "makes individual Pokémon broken for sure" and "introduces unhealthy dynamics to competitive play." Are the idiotic lures Tera blast enables competitve?

I won’t harp on this for too long since I have classes, but most of the Tera Blast users are common enough to be played around like Volcarona and Iron Moth, or are one-time lures for a specific matchup like Tera Ice Excadrill. In fact Tera Blast lures arguably have a higher cost and higher decision making involved than random Hidden Powers from Gens 2-7. You might see HP Grass on Ttar to snipe Swampert in ADV, but it isn’t suddenly a game winning or overbearing. It could be scouted and it still sacrifices a possible moveslot. Though I will acknowledge that Tera Blast has a higher BP and you get STAB on it, but there is still a cost to running it.

If you have an example of an off-beat Tera Blast being used to win a game in high ladder or high tournament play. Please do, I want to be proven wrong. I have admittedly been wrong about a lot of things in the past and want to

I don't understand how you can mention multiple cracked ass setup sweepers, call them broken, and conclude "it's only defensive Tera that people seem to have an issue with" as if being able to Tera into a type that's difficult to safely hit given your offensive options & getting a 3rd stab of your choice doesn't make sweepers extremely potent

I didn’t say offensive Tera wasn’t a reason people voice concerns for Terastilization, but I feel the voices are louder for defensive Tera. A great defense is a great offense after all. When you combine strong offensive threats with the ability to either not get rkilled anymore or set up on a quote on quote check, it creates a problem. Even with teams only allowed to run Tera of their respective types, Kingambit would still be checked and rkilled by Great Tusk, Zamazenta, and Iron Valiant.

Most of the mons that are on the radar rn are because of defensive Tera. While Gouging Fire becomes a scary breaker on Sun teams with Tera Fire, DD sets have used Tera Fairy or Flying to get up multiple boosts and 1v1 supposed checks. Lately we’ve seen Tera Poison Breaking Swipe which 1v1s Ground types and fucking Dondozo. Tera Fairy lets Raging Bolt and Archaludon flips matchups or live hits that would otherwise have killed them. Even Kyurem can Tera Steel in front of Slowking-G and Clef to completely wall them behind a Sub.

Lately I have been interested in suspecting Terastilization in the future, because Tera limits innovative niche defensive picks and enforces you to use the best of the best because of their high stats to an extreme degree.

I’m gonna use Chesnaught as an example.

Chesnaught is a physical bulky Grass/Fighting type that could set spikes and click Knock. Its typing and solid bulk makes it a great check to Kingambit while Bulletproof helps teams pivot around Pult’s Sball.

This idea gets completely shattered once Kingambit clicks Tera Flying.

"This Tera blast ban would not do anything but keep Volcarona balanced" ignoring that the first statement is just untrue why are you pretending that's not a good thing, Volcarona is offensively and defensively an amazing tool for dealing with Kingambit, valiant, Rillaboom, and other Pokémon that border on too much for, or introduce unhealthy dynamics to, the tier. And before you say "then why not just ban all of those" - as CTC said I want to play Pokémon not lack thereof. I'd rather disable the cheat button than turn OU into UU.

I half-agree with this. Volcarona provides alot of defensive value to as a setup sweeper. Even Regieleki could provide the tier with a fast Spinner. Though if I were to argue with CTC, I’d say the cheat button they refer to better describes Tera than Tera Blast.

pulling up with Glowking calcs to say "it's not broken" is also hilarious, that's one degree removed from Clodsire or Dondozo calcs.

I used Gking as an example because unlike Clod/Dozo, Gking is an incredibly splashable mon that fits on almost any build.

Personally I am open to improving the tier. Gouging Fire, Kingambit, and Roaring Moon should be addressed for example.

 

[Karxrida]

Lately I have been interested in suspecting Terastilization in the future, because Tera limits innovative niche defensive picks and enforces you to use the best of the best because of their high stats to an extreme degree.

I personally find this reasoning to be quite off. That's just how competitive games work? Niche things are niche because they have issues impacting their consistency overall utility -- Tera's presence doesn't really change that. And people naturally gravitate to what they see as the best options. Plus any given Morkal post demonstrates that you can get away with running really random shit partially because of Tera.

 

[Baloor]

community is really its own worse enemy at this point. resistant to extensive bans but acknowledges there is several issues with the tier. in terms of wanting to play with more as opposed to less pokemon, then you'll have to accept one of tera ban or tera blast ban (not sure how effective the latter is with minimal thought put in). if you want to keep tera you have to accept that there needs to be more pokemon bans. given how the power creep has happened this gen alongside the tera mechanic with lack off broken defensive pokemon to check the offensive ones, the harmony in the tier that people are hoping for is not going to happen by just sitting and waiting. never have I seen a community constantly complain about how bad something is but continue to be so combative towards those that try to push for some sort of action. if you excel and enjoy super chaotic environments like this one i'm happy for you, but with the recent push for a less matchup fishy metagame with the general community, people need to stop conceding to whatever ideology we have now. If a ban will improve the environment of the tier and how its played, look into it, its really that simple. We are so resistant to change this gen its truly baffling, things wont move forward with the gen unless you actually try to move forward.

just to reemphasize this, if you excel and enjoy chaotic matchup fishy environments like this and dont want anything to change, thats great, thats your preference and its fine. we just can't pretend that how things are currently is considered balanced. if the community wants to push for a more balanced state (like so many people are complaining about) we have to explore more options than we currently are with less pushback. its honestly ridiculous the huge shit storm that ensues during every ban/potential ban and i have never seen anything like this to the extent that it is during my entire time on this site.

I was originally against this at first but maybe testing the kokoloko method is serious option around this time if we are going to continue to go in circles.