Arceus-Dragon [QC 0/3]

[Drew]

[OVERVIEW]

• Arceus-Dragon's great bulk, decent defensive typing, and access to excellent support moves such as Defog, Toxic, and Will-O-Wisp, make it a great bulky support Pokemon.
• Despite having a similar role to Arceus-Water, Arceus-Dragon has the bonus of being able to hit Primal Groudon and Salamence hard in only one moveslot.
• Arceus-Dragon's ability to fulfill a similar role as Arceus-Water without giving up STAB or coverage lets it carve out a niche over Arceus-Water in general.
• But despite this, Arceus-Water is still often chosen instead of Arceus-Dragon because Arceus-Dragon stacks weaknesses with common Dragon- and Dark-types, namely Giratina-O, Mega Salamence, Zygarde-C, Yveltal, and Mega Sabeleye.
• Bulkier Pokemon such as Arceus-Ground, Zygarde-C, and Giratina-O also give Arceus-Dragon competition for a team slot.
• Arceus-Dragon also has an incredible weakness to Fairy-types as its only way of damaging them is Toxic.
• Magearna and Xerneas in particular are quite troublesome, the former being immune to Toxic and the latter being able to merely set up Arceus-Dragon.
• Steel-types such as Mega Lucario and Celesteela can also freely switch into Arceus-Dragon, the former also being able to set up on Arceus-Dragon
• It also can be easily trapped and removed by the very common Mega Gengar.
• Finally, it suffers from having poor defensive synergy with most of the Pokemon it relies on to check offensive Primal Groudon, such as Zygarde-C and Mega Salamence.

[SET]
name: Support
move 1: Judgement
move 2: Defog
move 3: Recover
move 4: Toxic
item: Draco Plate
ability: Multitype
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 132 Def / 124 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

• Judgment is Arceus-Dragon's best STAB move, as its more powerful than Dragon Pulse, but it doesn't have the repercussions of Outrage or Draco Meteor.
• Defog helps Arceus-Dragon clear hazards for its teammates.
• Recover lets Arceus-Dragon heal itself reliably and potentially stall Pokemon that can't take out more than half of its HP in one move, but it is notable that it can only really stall if its opponent is afflicted with Toxic and Arceus-Dragon isn't.
• Toxic lets Arceus-Dragon poison bulkier Pokemon such as Giratina-O and Arceus-Ground and stall them out.
• Will-O-Wisp can be utilized instead of Toxic to cripple physical attackers, namely Arceus-Dragon's physical Steel-type switch ins, but it doesn't do enough damage to warrant using it, and Primal Groudon, Ho-oh and Mega Salamence all either don't mind or, in the case of the latter, like being burned.
• Fire Blast could help Arceus-Dragon break through Steel-types, but it eliminates some of Arceus-Dragon's utility.

Set Details
========

• Draco Plate converts Arceus to its Dragon-type forme and converts Judgment into a Dragon-type move to hit Primal Groudon and Mega Salamence.
• 124 Speed EVs and a Timid nature allow Arceus-Dragon to outspeed Timid Yveltal and Palkia.
• The rest of the EVs are put into HP and Defense to make Arceus-Dragon even bulkier.

Usage Tips
========

• Always remember to beware of Fairy-type Pokemon, especially Magearna and Xerneas, as the former is immune to Toxic and can set up Spikes, and the latter can set up on Arceus-Dragon.
• Defog is best used on predicted switches to clear hazards without sacrificing an of its HP unless its poisoned or burned.
• Be sure to conserve Arceus-Dragon's HP if if your opponent has anything that is checked by it, such as Primal Groudon or Mega Salamence.
• Using Recover or Toxic on a predicted switch is usually a safe option to either recover lost HP or cripple opposing walls and tanks.
• Remember to use Recover often to keep Arceus-Dragon's health topped off and more easily check foes.
• Arceus-Dragon can switch into defensive variants of Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh to easily clear hazards with Defog, although it is quite notable that Arceus-Dragon does not like to switch into Toxic, a move which both of these Pokemon carry.

Team Options
========

• Arceus-Dragon is best used over Arceus-Water when the ability to hit Mega Salamence, Ho-Oh, and Groudon with one Pokemon is appreciated without stacking multiple weaknesses with teammates. The semblance of an offensive presence gained from this also lets it fit slightly better on bulky offense teams.
• A check to Fairy-types such as Primal Groudon, Magearna, Celesteela, or Ho-Oh is necessary, as Arceus-Dragon can do next to nothing to beat them.
• Primal Groudon and Mega Lucario can abuse the Steel-types that Arceus-Dragon brings in by either setting up Stealth Rock or using Fire-type STAB in the case of the former, or using the more defensive ones such as Ferrothorn and Celesteela as set up bait in the case of the latter.
• Although it does exceptionally well against more defensive Primal Groudon sets, offensive ones can give Arceus-Dragon trouble, making Lugia and Landorus-T good partners.
• Mega Salamence, Zygarde-C, and Rayquaza, although stacking weaknesses, can do relatively well against Primal Groudon, and the former can set up and break through Fairy-types in certain situations.
• Checks to to common Steel-types, such as Primal Groudon and Mega Lucario, can be useful to Arceus-Dragon.
• Checks to Mega Lucario in particular such as Ho-oh can switch in on Mega Lucario, as it can use Arceus-Dragon as set up fodder.
• Ferrothorn can check Primal Kyogre and provide Spikes support to Arceus-Dragon's more offensive teammates.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

• A Swords Dance set can be used with Outrage and Iron Tail, but other Swords Dance Arceus formes such as Arceus-Ghost and Extreme Killer Arceus perform a Swords Dance sweeping role much better.
• Fire Blast can be used to fit Steel-types such as mega Lucario and Celesteela, but it usually needs all 4 of its moves.
• Flash Cannon can hit Fairy-types, but similar to Fire Blast Arceus-Dragon can't afford it on its move set, and even with this Magearna still walls it.

Checks and Counters
===================
**Shadow Tag**: Mega Gengar can trap and easily remove Arceus-Dragon with a Hex or Destiny Bond, although it must be wary of Arceus-Dragon's powerful STAB Judgement. Wobbufet can Encore Arceus-Dragon into one of its status movves and switch out to give set up fodder to one of its teammates.

**Fairy-types**: Arceus-Dragon can barely touch most Fairy-types. Magearna isn't hit by Toxic due to its Steel-typing and Clefable can heal it off with Heal Bell, making Arceus-Dragon's primary form of attacking fairy-types useless against both. Xerneas, especially its Z-Geomancy set can easily set up on Arceus-Dragon. Arceus-Fairy can also set up on Arceus-Dragon. Tapu Lele can also easily brea through Arceus-Dragon withy its powerful STAB.

**Steel-types**: Steel-types resist Judgment and are immune to Toxic, making them extremely difficult to deal with. Mega Lucario, Ferrothorn, Mega Scizor, Celesteela, and Skarmory in particular can be quite troublesome.

**Bulky Sweepers**: Although Arceus-Dragon can hit them with Toxic, sweepers such as Arceus, Xerneas, and even Double Dance Primal Groudon can use Arceus-Dragon as setup bait and sweep.

**Blissey and Chansey**: Blissey and Chansey can both absorb Arceus-Dragon's Judgement and heal off Toxic with Heal Bell, plus they can also Toxic Arceus-Dragon.

**Primal Kyogre**: Primal Kyogre can use Arceus-Dragon as setup fodder and deal heavy damage with Ice Beam, although one not carrying Rest can be taken care of with Toxic to an extent.

**Cloyster**: Cloyster can set up hazards on Arceus-Dragon, while Arceus-Dragon cannot safely Defog in fear of Icicle Spear. However, Cloyster cannot safely switch in due to fear of Judgment or Toxic breaking its Focus Sash.

**Revenge Killers**: Mewtwo, Deoxys-A, and Tapu Lele can all revenge kill Arceus-Dragon, although the former two can't hard switch in in fear of Toxic or Judgement.

 

[Drew]

This is ready for QC as long as you are fine with me copy-pasting this from the currently uploaded analysis, as I originally wrote it with the intention of making it into a fully written up analysis. If I'm not allowed to do this, please tell me so I may rewrite it.

 

[aurora]

I'm not QC, but I really don't think Swords Dance Arceus-Dragon deserves a set. It's OO-worthy at best, as it is, in most situations, a far inferior Arceus-Ghost. It has all of Arceus-Ghost's issues – no Recover, vulnerability to all status – while bringing in even more problems of its own. It can't fit Extreme Speed, as it absolutely has to run Iron Tail and Earthquake to hit a wide breadth of threats, so your matchup against offensive teams is inherently worse. Its Z-move is a lot worse as well. A 190 Base Power Devastating Drake is great and has surprise value, but it is so much more prediction-reliant than Never-Ending Nightmare. Arceus-Normal is the only really common Ghost immunity, and it's restricted to HO. Yes, there are plenty of Ghost resists due to the prevalence of Lunala and friends now, but more often than not you will at least be able to get one off. Shadow Force isn't even that terrible a move on its own, so you can use that or another move until the time is right due to Arceus-Ghost's unresisted coverage. Meanwhile, Arceus-Dragon has trouble getting off a Devastating Drake against multiple playstyles. Offense is more often than not going to carry Xerneas, balance / bulkier teams might have Arceus-Fairy or Magearna, and stall might have Clefable. Iron Tail can lure them in, but it is fairly telegraphable if you are carrying an offensive Arceus-Dragon set as team compositions using it over the support set will be vastly different, so smart play can even counteract that. Outrage is a terrible move, so you can't even fall back on that if Fairies ars still alive. In the event you DO get a Devaststing Drake off, you're stuck with one of the worst moves in the game afterwards for STAB and weak / unreliable non-STAB coverage. I have teams around both this Arceus and Arceus-Ghost and I find Arceus-Ghost so much more consistent in general thanks to everything that I have mentioned plus its ability to offensively check a wider, more relevant pool of threats, Arceus-Normal being one of these.

 

[alex 67]

Kind of nitpicky, but I'd stop mentioning Klefki much throughout the analysis and put Magearna instead. The latter is a much more used and effective mon due to the prankster nerf from last gen. I honestly don't think I've even seen keys used this gen.

 

[Drew]

Kind of nitpicky, but I'd stop mentioning Klefki much throughout the analysis and put Magearna instead. The latter is a much more used and effective mon due to the prankster nerf from last gen. I honestly don't think I've even seen keys used this gen.

makes sense, changed all klefki's to megearna

 

[ckw]

Hey man, just a few suggestions:

Overview

The Swords Dance set faces almost equal competition from other Swords Dance Arceus formes, including Arceus, Arceus-Ghost, and Arceus-Ground.

If SD Arceus-Dragon faces almost equal competition from other SD Arceus formes like Ekiller, Ghostceus, and Groundceus, then, it should be getting an entirely separate SD set. Since that's not the case, this bit of information is somewhat misleading and should be removed imo. I can see a request for the removal of the SD set already recommended by Aurora so I think you forgot to remove this point.

Team Options

A check to Fairy-types such as Primal Groudon, Magearna, Mega Lucario, Excadrill, or Ho-Oh is necessary, as Arceus-Dragon can do next to nothing to beat them.

In the point above this, you mention how one of its best used over Arceus-Water, both Defog Arceus formes are comfortable on Balance teams. While Excadrill and Mega Lucario are fairy checks, balance teams shouldnt really be using the two as fairy checks; I'd remove Excadrill mention here.

Checks to to common Steel-types, such as Primal Groudon and Mega Lucario, can be useful to Arceus-Dragon.

.
I'd write about how Primal Groudon and Mega Lucario can abuse Steel-types since you can go for SR on Steel-types or OHKO with Fire-type coverage. Mega Lucario can use some of them like Ferrothorn, and Celesteela for setup fodder.

Arceus-Dragon gets easily checked by any standard Primal Kyogre check. Because of this, I believe Ferrothorn should be added as a check. It can also provide Spikes support are great on teams with Arceus-Dragon while also having near perfect defensive synergy.

Without Will-o-Wisp Arceus-Dragon becomes a setup fodder to Mega Lucario. Though you did mention a few checks, I believe you should write how this Pokemon can pose a threat to Arceus-Dragon.

Checks and Counters

Primal Kyogre is a hard counter to Defog Arceus-Dragon, placing it at the last seems inappropriate, I'd consider moving it up to at least above Cloyster.

 

[Drew]

Hey man, just a few suggestions:

Overview



If SD Arceus-Dragon faces almost equal competition from other SD Arceus formes like Ekiller, Ghostceus, and Groundceus, then, it should be getting an entirely separate SD set. Since that's not the case, this bit of information is somewhat misleading and should be removed imo. I can see a request for the removal of the SD set already recommended by Aurora so I think you forgot to remove this point.

Team Options


In the point above this, you mention how one of its best used over Arceus-Water, both Defog Arceus formes are comfortable on Balance teams. While Excadrill and Mega Lucario are fairy checks, balance teams shouldnt really be using the two as fairy checks; I'd remove Excadrill mention here. .
I'd write about how Primal Groudon and Mega Lucario can abuse Steel-types since you can go for SR on Steel-types or OHKO with Fire-type coverage. Mega Lucario can use some of them like Ferrothorn, and Celesteela for setup fodder.

Arceus-Dragon gets easily checked by any standard Primal Kyogre check. Because of this, I believe Ferrothorn should be added as a check. It can also provide Spikes support are great on teams with Arceus-Dragon while also having near perfect defensive synergy.

Without Will-o-Wisp Arceus-Dragon becomes a setup fodder to Mega Lucario. Though you did mention a few checks, I believe you should write how this Pokemon can pose a threat to Arceus-Dragon.

Checks and Counters

Primal Kyogre is a hard counter to Defog Arceus-Dragon, placing it at the last seems inappropriate, I'd consider moving it up to at least above Cloyster.

I added all of this but I don't fully understand the lines I've made red above

 

[ckw]

I added all of this but I don't fully understand the lines I've made red above

whoops, pc bugged. Might see a few deleted posts.
Anyways, I basically meant that Ferrothorn can be written under Team Option since its able to check Primal Kyogre that usually beats Arceus-Dragon. It also provides Spikes support which helps in weakening the opponent.

As for the 2nd statement, I just felt like mentioning how Lucario poses as a threat would justify checks like Ho-Oh and Lugia to be added as a teammate.
The level of threat that MLucario poses to Arceus-Dragon can be written under Checks and Counters instead as well.

 

[Drew]

whoops, pc bugged. Might see a few deleted posts.
Anyways, I basically meant that Ferrothorn can be written under Team Option since its able to check Primal Kyogre that usually beats Arceus-Dragon. It also provides Spikes support which helps in weakening the opponent.

As for the 2nd statement, I just felt like mentioning how Lucario poses as a threat would justify checks like Ho-Oh and Lugia to be added as a teammate.
The level of threat that MLucario poses to Arceus-Dragon can be written under Checks and Counters instead as well.

implemented!

 

[Nayrz]

The spacing of this skeleton is all over the place - plz fix

Go with a 252 / 132+ / 124 spread for +90s like Jolly Groudon + Ho-Oh. Moves are fine, but the descriptions ain't:

• Judgment is Arceus-Dragon's best STAB move, as it hits all Pokemon in the tier bar Fairy- and Steel-types for neutral or supereffective damage. Doesn't tell me why its the best STAB in particular, all of its STAB moves do that
• Defog helps Arceus-Dragon clear hazards for its teammates.
• Recover lets Arceus-Dragon heal itself reliably and potentially stall. Stall what?
• Toxic lets Arceus-Dragon poison bulkier Pokemon (Who?) and stall them out.
• Will-O-Wisp can be utilized instead of Toxic to cripple physical attackers (Not many, Groudon/Mence/Ho-Oh don't care), but it doesn't do enough damage to warrant using it. Wisp's only target are Steels like Lucario
• Fire Blast could help Arceus-Dragon break through Steel-types, but it eliminates some of Arceus-Dragon's utility.

Usage tips has some whack points brought up about sweeping or being swept - these sorts of absolute statements are a no-go and ignore all other aspects of a game and simply look through your "best/worst case situation". Remove them. Doubling out of Fairy-types also disregards some aspects - What if Arceus-Dragon is at low HP? Taken chip damage? The teams it fits on should be capable of dealing with the most threatening switches like Xerneas, allowing Arceus-Dragon to Recover even at the cost of it coming in. Don't make these kinda statements. "Arceus-Dragon can switch into defensive variants of Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh to easily clear hazards with Defog." Toxic commonly exists on either Pokemon, this is not as easy as noted.

As for Team Options, remove Lucario from the second point and add Celes/Ferro. Lucario is a soft check, so if you want it in there, note it as such. Ray/Mence/Zygarde seem to be poor teammates to me so idk why they are here.

OO is under the assumption an SD set already exists when it doesn't. Add the SD set here properly.

C&C...

Why the hell is Gengar not here or mentioned anywhere in this analysis??? If I wasn't so far through my check this would be an outright rejection all things considered, fix this entire thing to standards or I'll quickly change my mind.

Xerneas is noted twice (Fairies + Bulky Attackers), and Z-Geo (the biggest pain in the ass) is nowhere to be seen. Clefable isn't in the Fairies section, and neither is Arceus-Fairy or something like Tapu Koko.

RP Groudon isn't breaking Arceus-Dragon without SD. Either note Double Dance, or SD alone, but RP doesn't do it at all.

Scarf Zekrom and Kyurem-W don't exist anymore. Remove them. Darkrai doesn't "easily revenge kill" an Arceus-Dragon either, it's probably burning a z-move for it or forcing it out.

No mention of blobs. What is going on here?

I hope to see a drastic improvement when I get a reply to this.

 

[Drew]

The spacing of this skeleton is all over the place - plz fix

Go with a 252 / 132+ / 124 spread for +90s like Jolly Groudon + Ho-Oh. Moves are fine, but the descriptions ain't:

Usage tips has some whack points brought up about sweeping or being swept - these sorts of absolute statements are a no-go and ignore all other aspects of a game and simply look through your "best/worst case situation". Remove them. Doubling out of Fairy-types also disregards some aspects - What if Arceus-Dragon is at low HP? Taken chip damage? The teams it fits on should be capable of dealing with the most threatening switches like Xerneas, allowing Arceus-Dragon to Recover even at the cost of it coming in. Don't make these kinda statements. "Arceus-Dragon can switch into defensive variants of Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh to easily clear hazards with Defog." Toxic commonly exists on either Pokemon, this is not as easy as noted.

As for Team Options, remove Lucario from the second point and add Celes/Ferro. Lucario is a soft check, so if you want it in there, note it as such. Ray/Mence/Zygarde seem to be poor teammates to me so idk why they are here.

OO is under the assumption an SD set already exists when it doesn't. Add the SD set here properly.

C&C...

Why the hell is Gengar not here or mentioned anywhere in this analysis??? If I wasn't so far through my check this would be an outright rejection all things considered, fix this entire thing to standards or I'll quickly change my mind.

Xerneas is noted twice (Fairies + Bulky Attackers), and Z-Geo (the biggest pain in the ass) is nowhere to be seen. Clefable isn't in the Fairies section, and neither is Arceus-Fairy or something like Tapu Koko.

RP Groudon isn't breaking Arceus-Dragon without SD. Either note Double Dance, or SD alone, but RP doesn't do it at all.

Scarf Zekrom and Kyurem-W don't exist anymore. Remove them. Darkrai doesn't "easily revenge kill" an Arceus-Dragon either, it's probably burning a z-move for it or forcing it out.

No mention of blobs. What is going on here?

I hope to see a drastic improvement when I get a reply to this.

Ok implemented all of this and redid most of the OO and Checks and Counters sections, as the latter was admittedly horrible and the former didn't fit without the SD set there. If I should add more please tell me, I want to make this as good as possible and I am really sorry I fucked some of it up so bad :/

 

[alex 67]

Actually Nayrz wants you to use Bold on that, but that spread is inferior to the 252 Hp 160 Def 96 Speed timid you had before. The marginal defense increase doesn't change any notable Groudon or Mence feats and now you're forced to eat Draco Meteor from Mix Rayquaza instead of outspeeding, you lose similar utility against Lunala and Palkia, and worst of all you can t defog on +speed Yvetal or get off a toxic before it Taunts.

 

[Nayrz]

[SET]
name: Support
move 1: Judgment
move 2: Fire Blast
move 3: Recover
move 4: Defog
item: Draco Plate
ability: Multitype
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 68 Def / 192 Spe

After a long wait we have finally figured out something that has potential for this mon. This is essentially an Arceus-Water that drops Toxic for target flexibility. Arceus-Water is forced to choose its moves based on the team, whereas this set drops Toxic to offer similar utility but also the ability to hit everything Arceus-Water potentially hits (Judgment - Ho-Oh/neutral targets | Fire Blast - Steels | Ice Beam - Dragons, so it is forced to make big choices around its partners). It can Defog on Ferrothorn for example - Arceus-Water needs Fire Blast to do that and might even get hit by Power Whip for its troubles. It can also be considered an alternative to Defog Salamence on balance teams, which frees up a mega slot.

The new additions in Diancie and Marshadow have also worked their way into giving Arceus-Dragon some added partners, which also helps. It is still not a very great Pokemon, but it can at least be justified for a purpose now.

Other partners include Bronzong and Toxapex. Give this analysis an overall update, I see some rather outdated information and lack of Marshadow mentions or updated team options. I'll give this a proper QC once its been revamped.

 

[Drew]

So after looking into it and playing a few games, I realized that the Ubers meta has shifted too much for me to be able to properly write this. Sorry if this sounds like horseshit but I just started up with my marching band and I don't have enough time to test enough, write this, and do everything else I do on this site. Hope I can write smth in the future if I'm able to test enough!

aite sure - Nayrz