Ash-Greninja

[shadowist]

[OVERVIEW]

First seen in the anime winning almost every single battle with Ash, fans have been wondering how they could get Greninja to transform like that. The wait is over now as it is possible to play as Ash-Greninja in SM and boy it does not dissapoint. With the addition of many glass cannons such as Tapu Koko and Phermosa, Ash-Greninja can check those faster threats with a potentially powerful Water Shuriken. In essence, Ash-Greninja trades the ability to change types and STAB on every move for a slight increase in speed and a Special Attack boost on top of STAB for its Water- and Dark-type moves as well as priority. It also doesn't transform until it KOs something, making it weaker than Protean Greninja until it transforms.

[SET]
name: Stronger Together
move 1: Water Shuriken
move 2: Dark Pulse
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Grass Knot / Extrasensory
item: Life Orb
ability: Battle Bond
nature: Timid / Modest
evs: 252 SpA / 252 Sp / 4 Def

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Water Shuriken is the main reason to use Ash-Greninja as it gains a boost in the Ash-Greninja form, making it a better (special) Aqua Jet. Priority allows it to KO potentially faster threats such as Tapu Koko, Phermosa, and Xurkitree. Ash-Greninja gains STAB on Dark Pulse and fast speed usually will give it a chance to flinch. Ice Beam nails Dragon- and Grass-Types and Grass Knot hits enemy Greninja hard. Extrasensory can be used on an incoming Mega-Venusaur and any Fighting-types.

Set Details
========

* LO
* Battle Bond
* Timid vs Modest
* 4 Def

Usage Tips
========

Before Greninja transforms, bring it in against a weakened, slower foe (on a free switch, as LO and Greninja's paltry defenses will wear it down quickly). Greninja isn't great until transformed, so try to get it to transform as soon as possible. Like Mega-Evolution, Greninja's transformation doesn't wear off upon switching, so feel free to switch on an unfavorable matchup. Ash-Greninja outspeeds most of the unboosted, unscarved metagame (with a base speed greater than that of even Jolteon) and with a base Sp. Atk of 153, it can sweep entire teams once its checks and counters are removed. Ash-Greninja can also be used to KO weakened Phermosa, Xurkitree, and Tapu Koko with Water Shuriken.


Team Options
========

* Entry Hazards
* Wallbreakers
* Mega-Venusaur

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============
* Physical Set


Checks and Counters
===================

**Tapu Fini**: Describe why the Pokemon is a threat.
**Grass Types**: Describe why the Pokemon is a threat.
**Electric Types**: Describe why the Pokemon is a threat.
**Fairy Types**: Describe why the Pokemon is a threat.
**Toxapex**: Describe why the Pokemon is a threat.

 

[viol and bass]

"Water Shuriken is the main reason to use Ash-Greninja as it gains a 50% power boost in the Ash-Greninja form, making even its worst case scenerio better than (special) Aqua Jet."

I know this is a WIP but this isn't really accurate; it's bumped up from 15 to 20 BP and it always hits 3 times. It's effectively 60 BP. Given that it can be as little as 30 BP before transformation, it might be worth considering Hydro Pump on the set, either over Shuriken or in the fourth slot.

 

[Karxrida]

HP Fire and Gunk Shot are both illegal on this, so they can't be OOs. IVs are fixed so no HP Fire (you're stuck with the worthless HP Ghost), while there are no tutors in Gen VII so no Gunk Shot.

 

[Vinsader]

I used it for a while in side account, and oh boy Ash-Greninja is a nice side option. it's a good late-game cleaner with priority as good as technician against even faster stuff.

Wished tutors were around for abusing that nice 145 attack, but hopefuly next games we could.

 

[shadowist]

Vinsader Well, it still has Waterfall, Night Slash, Shadow Sneak, Rock Slide, and U-turn

 

[PK Gaming]

While endearing, the overview could you use more focus.

It's really important to stress that Battle Bond Greninja only becomes Ash-Greninja after a KO, hence it should be regarded as inferior to regular Greninja until that until then (the loss in power in coverage moves + smaller movepool in comparison to Protean Greninja is pretty significant and worth noting.) That said, once BB-Greninja transforms, it becomes incredibly fast and powerful (154 SpA + Life Orb is even stronger than most Mega Pokemon) making it a medium risk, high reward Pokemon (relative to Protean Greninja). It's really good at capitalizing on sacs or revenge killing weakened Pokemon. These are some of things you could mention.

Moveset wise, Modest is flat out unacceptable. Greninja is in an amazing Speed tier and Ash-Greninja is capable of outspeeding Tapu Koko, which is extremely valuable.

I think the main set should look like this

name: Stronger Together
move 1: Hydro Pump
move 2: Dark Pulse
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Water Shuriken / Grass Knot / Extrasensory
item: Life Orb
ability: Battle Bond
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 252 Sp / 4 Def

Hydro Pump is worth having due to its high base power, and you're going to need all of the power you can get if you want to actually land those KOs. Dark Pulse makes up your secondary STAB and Ice Beam is for coverage. Haven't really messed around with Water Shuriken yet, but it seems pretty handy once you've transformed (though it's predictably inconsistent). Grass Knot's mostly sure there for Sharpedo, who's becoming more and more relevant (+quag whenever that becomes relevant). Extrasensory hits Venusaur and Toxapex. Unlike Protean, the damage is pretty poor until you transform so it's not too great imo. U-turn is always an option, but I think I like BB-Greninja having as much coverage as it can muster.

Haven't really used the physical sets, but those don't seem that viable atm.

 

[PK Gaming]

Add a choice specs set and make it the first one because it's incredibly powerful. Also de-slash modest

Modest terr i b l e

 

[kumiko]

the only set should be Specs with Water Shuriken | Hydro Pump | Dark Pulse | U-turn

Specs Ash Greninja hits crazy hard and there's no reason to use coverage moves on a Pokemon w/o Protean and you dont need to switch moves as often when you don't have Protean.

 

[Zein]

the only set should be Specs with Water Shuriken | Hydro Pump | Dark Pulse | U-turn

Specs Ash Greninja hits crazy hard and there's no reason to use coverage moves on a Pokemon w/o Protean and you dont need to switch moves as often when you don't have Protean.

What's your argument for the U-Turn with specs? I don't disagree with you, I'd just like to know the potential benefit of running U-Turn over some other harder hitting move. To me it just looks like the U-Turn offers minor harass while switching out on Greninja's first turn, but is that minor harass worth more than a fourth potentially hard hitting move?

 

[readytolose]

I feel like this has been asked a billion times before but why does Ash-Greninja get its own entry, instead of just being listed as a possible set under the Greninja entry?

 

[Rakan]

What's your argument for the U-Turn with specs? I don't disagree with you, I'd just like to know the potential benefit of running U-Turn over some other harder hitting move. To me it just looks like the U-Turn offers minor harass while switching out on Greninja's first turn, but is that minor harass worth more than a fourth potentially hard hitting move?

Greninja can force switches easily with the threat of its high-powered attacks, so utilizing U-turn to capitalize on that switch can turn the match in your favor. Additionally, as TDK already stated, being locked into a non-STAB move is outclassed by Protean variants.

 

[Zein]

I feel like this has been asked a billion times before but why does Ash-Greninja get its own entry, instead of just being listed as a possible set under the Greninja entry?

Wouldn't this be because you can't just breed for an Ash-Greninja like any other. Battle Bond is only available via the transfer and you can't breed Ash-Greninja with anything iirc.

Greninja can force switches easily with the threat of its high-powered attacks, so utilizing U-turn to capitalize on that switch can turn the match in your favor. Additionally, as TDK already stated, being locked into a non-STAB move is outclassed by Protean variants.

I can understand that line of thought, but what is the specific benefit of U-Turn over a regular switch? Is it that if you U-Turn you can decide what to switch to after seeing if/what they switched to?

 

[PK Gaming]

I can understand that line of thought, but what is the specific benefit of U-Turn over a regular switch? Is it that if you U-Turn you can decide what to switch to after seeing if/what they switched to?

Pretty much. The extra damage is nice as well, and if hazards are up you can really wear down their BB!Greninja checks/counters.

 

[Vinsader]

the only set should be Specs with Water Shuriken | Hydro Pump | Dark Pulse | U-turn

Specs Ash Greninja hits crazy hard and there's no reason to use coverage moves on a Pokemon w/o Protean and you dont need to switch moves as often when you don't have Protean.

i don't agree with you with "Specs should be the only set". I should try specs myself, but after going IKU-Z, Ash-Greninja hitting really, really close to Protean one.

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Toxapex: 179-213 (58.8 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Ash-Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Toxapex: 161-190 (52.9 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


yeah, it's 8% difference, it's can be significant, but it's still REALLY close. Protean is crazy good ability, but the stat boost make it close after transforming.
Getting the transformation is the "high risk" of Ash-Greninja, but to be perfectly honest, it's more than manageable, quite easy if you pick Ice/Water/Dark weak targets. or even just effective damage with dual stabs.

 

[Vague]

essentially there's little reason to run lo ash ninja since you'd be better off just using the protean variant since it gets STAB on everything. with bbond instead, you lose universal STAB and only have Water / Dark to work with which is actually quite a good combo. that opens up the opportunity to run a successful specs set to take advantage of ash ninja's ridic power.

so yeah, tdk's set is what you should run. u-turn is good because the other coverage moves aren't doing anything for you since tox, mvenu, mantine, ferro, and amoong are slammed by specs pulse so there's literally nothing else you really need to make the most out of ninja. out of all options grass knot could be used for some niche things like ko'ing mega gyara, fini, azu, and sharpedo for the latter but both don't like u-turn since it really stings.

 

[p2]

life orb ash gren is horrible and outclassed by reg protean gren, dont ever use it. specs is the only reason it has a niche

i don't agree with you with "Specs should be the only set". I should try specs myself, but after going IKU-Z, Ash-Greninja hitting really, really close to Protean one.

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Toxapex: 179-213 (58.8 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Ash-Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Toxapex: 161-190 (52.9 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


yeah, it's 8% difference, it's can be significant, but it's still REALLY close. Protean is crazy good ability, but the stat boost make it close after transforming.
Getting the transformation is the "high risk" of Ash-Greninja, but to be perfectly honest, it's more than manageable, quite easy if you pick Ice/Water/Dark weak targets. or even just effective damage with dual stabs.

this is actually assuming you manage to pick up a boost with regular greninja too, and if you're using lo, it's probably gonna be near dead by the time you get the boost anyway considering how fast gren racks up hazard and lo damage.

 

[Vinsader]

life orb ash gren is horrible and outclassed by reg protean gren, dont ever use it. specs is the only reason it has a niche


this is actually assuming you manage to pick up a boost with regular greninja too, and if you're using lo, it's probably gonna be near dead by the time you get the boost anyway considering how fast gren racks up hazard and lo damage.

Why shouldn't it get the boost? you don't use it (as regular Grenininja) like Protean one, you use it for revenge kills on weakened stuff for getting the transformation, or against something that weak to dark/water. You can always defog/rapid spin hazzards. Then, after transforming, you can use your high-powered attacks to blow holes almost as good as Protean (without Gunk shot which is a fucking shame) or just use it as it supposed to be- a powerful late game cleaner that pack a powerful priority against even faster stuff/scarfers.

It's like saying in Gen6 that Talonflame/Both Megazard won't be good because recoil damage/rock problem(Which people here actually said at first. I still remember the laughs on "lel Talonflame will be UU" also RIP best bird ;_;7) Also, as far as it looking right now, i won't be suprised if Protean Greninja would get the ban hammer again, so Ash-Greninja would be pretty much the only way for Greninja to be used in OU.

 

[shadowist]

Littlelucario will be taking over this thread

 

[Hootie]

Okay, locking.