BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread

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Yes, I do rtemember that team, if you are talking about the skill swap mega venusaur that used acupressure+purify to prevent death by struggle.

How does king's shield help you agaainst Magnet pull? Since thousand arrows isn't a contact move they just use that against you on the King's shield turn. But Steels are already strapped for movesets as it is and KS is such a momentum drain. I've began to build teams without a steel-type so I can just laugh in the face of Magnet Pull. Of course this doesn't have anything to do with why it's uncompetitive. Fur Coat Chansey walls like all the same stuff that AV solgaleo does; just keep it far away from Knock Off, and nothing will ohko you from full. Fur Coat chansey is definitely an underrated mon these days for some reason except for on the highest ladder.
 
Yes, I do rtemember that team, if you are talking about the skill swap mega venusaur that used acupressure+purify to prevent death by struggle.

How does king's shield help you agaainst Magnet pull? Since thousand arrows isn't a contact move they just use that against you on the King's shield turn. But Steels are already strapped for movesets as it is and KS is such a momentum drain. I've began to build teams without a steel-type so I can just laugh in the face of Magnet Pull. Of course this doesn't have anything to do with why it's uncompetitive. Fur Coat Chansey walls like all the same stuff that AV solgaleo does; just keep it far away from Knock Off, and nothing will ohko you from full. Fur Coat chansey is definitely an underrated mon these days for some reason except for on the highest ladder.
Because if they're scarf you can live arrows, but yeah true it's pretty niche at best.

Chansey plays quite differently from solgaleo so you can't really compare the two. It's a momentum drain and does no damage (and is often 50/50 reliant from experience with setup vs atk).
There's also the fact that it's pressured pretty badly compared to solg especially considering what's commonly paired with magpull.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 295-348 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Fur Coat Chansey in Psychic Terrain: 330-388 (46.8 - 55.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Any specs ate variant 2hkos chansey after volt switch damage and hazards are a huge pain. Considering Chansey is forced to recover every single time it's hard to say that it does the same as solg. Especially considering that it's much harder to bring back up after a misspredict.


Also the bp team was like color change audino w/ dd / perish song / skill swap + trick scarf magpull deoxys-s + accupressure / heal pulse / baton pass giratina + mold aegislash blade or smt.
 
As the topic continues and I have played using it on my team I now have a strong opinion on Magnet Pull.
It has the potential to tear apart teams if played properly against the proper team, if you can't trap it's pointless in even using the ability and yields much less reward throughout the battle. But if you do trap the opponent, especially early on, it can immensely cripple the opponent's team by removing the prime check for pokémon such as Diancie, MMY, and Kyurem-W allowing them to blow away the rest of their team. The issue with magnet pull is the inconsistency that comes with using it, the opponent isn't guaranteed to be using a steel type and could still be prankster parting shot or dbond but it goes without saying that getting the chance to trap the opponent brings the game in your favor. In short Magnet Pull is an ability that is powerful because of how it allows strong threats to clean up the rest of the game. I feel that magnet pull should be suspected as I find it far too easy to swap in a Pdon and blow through the opponent's team without them being able to do much back
 
My personal hidden Overpowered is Prankster.
If you have Prankster, you can always trade 1 for 1 with Destiny Bond if your opponent lacks priority.

I think Magnet Pull should in addition to trapping completely immobilize Steel types like Attract does.

In my 20-30 matches played and watched today i have seen Gengarnite being strong only once.
Its main flaw is you can not take the first opportunity because you have to Mega evolve first.
From that perspective it is different than Shadow Tag.
 
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I'd like to have a discussion on trapping. Specifically, how it impacts the play of the match and skews predictions extremely in the user's favor. Let's start at team preview. You see a non-mega Gengar, and assume it's running illusion. It could be running something else like Intimidate as well but you don't know if it is, so your only real play is to assume it's illusion. You make your choice and select a lead. Let's say you lead with something that isn't Chansey(or don't have Chansey on your team) and find that you have the momentum advantage. You have no idea whether the thing in front of you is an illusion or not, so you can't blindly click a non-pivot move or attack since they could just mega evolve and encore you and then you've lost a mon right off the bat. You're forced to U-turn out to be sure this isn't an illusion. If it turns out to be Gengar, then you made the only non-losing play. But if it's not an illusion, then they've managed to leave you unable to capitalize on your momentum, and even done some damage to you in the process. Not only that, but you have to guess whether something's an illusion every time a mon switches in undamaged, forcing you to take massive risks to capitalize on any momentum you have.

And your opponent hasn't even mega evolved yet.

Note that simply by being on the foe's team, Gengar poses a huge threat. No other mon in the tier does that. -Ates and Groudon may be absolutely nasty to face, but they can't threaten you when they aren't on the field.

So after that they've fucked with your mind and some U-turns have been used, your opponent decides that it's the time to evolve Gengar. At this point in the game, you have to do a complete shift in the way you play the match. Before, your safe options were pretty limited, but only versus things that could possibly be an illusion. Now, your safe options versus EVERYTHING are extremely limited. If you ever click a move that
  • does not pivot you out
  • does not phaze the opponent
  • does not 2HKO Gengar
  • does not nullify or change the foe's ability
  • does not prevent Gengar from using Encore the following turn
  • and has more than 5 PP remaining
and your Pokemon is not Magic Bounce, Ghost-type, holding a Shed Shell, and does not have Prankster Parting Shot/Baton Pass, then you run the risk of losing that Pokemon to Gengar. In fact, if your Pokemon doesn't have a pivot move and can't KO/phaze Gengar or remove its ability, then it doesn't matter whether they have Magic Bounce or not - everything they do is unsafe and liable to be trapped by Gengar. Even switching them in is unsafe, and you can consider that Pokemon to be a dead slot until Gengar faints. Even if a Pokemon is semi-safe, some moves they do are unsafe.

The only Pokemon that are completely safe from Gengar are Magic Bounce Pokemon with pivoting moves, Ghost types, faster Pokemon with pivot moves (pretty much just Mewtwo Y, which Gengar does not like staying in on anyway) and Prankster Parting Shot/Baton Pass Pokemon. Everything else cannot do any of the following:
  • Use a healing move
  • Use a Protect clone
  • Use weak coverage moves, resisted STAB moves, and damaging utility moves
  • Set entry hazards
  • Remove entry hazards
  • Use Haze, Topsy-Turvy, Heart Swap, or Destiny Bond (common anti-setup moves)
  • Attempt to burn a foe (either with Scald or Will-o-Wisp)
  • Use Trick or Switcheroo
That's pretty big.
The first two items on the list basically mean that any healing your Pokemon do must be completely passive. Your walls are much easier to break when they're recovering only 1/8 per turn at best. The third item means that slow Pokemon(typically regenvest walls) cannot use most coverage moves, and some utility moves like Metal Burst and Nature's Madness. The fourth and fifth items are the biggest issues. As soon as your foe Mega evolves Gengar, they gain near-complete control over the hazard game. Playing the entire game with hazards on your side and no way to remove them is an uphill battle. The sixth item neuters most anti-setup Pokemon (if they weren't already taking a hard enough hit from the lack of healing). The seventh item protects Gengar's teammates, as Gengar doesn't fear a burn or weak Scalds. With Gengar evolved, nearly all of your options have extremely unfavorable risk/reward. This skews predictions heavily in the favor of the Gengar player. One(or more) of your teamslots faints the instant it touches the field, and most of your options are grayed out. Even the "safe" options do negligible damage thanks to Gengar's double resistance to Bug, and usually just maintain the status quo.

Lastly, Imposters are actually safe to use against Gengar. (unless you imposter something that lacks a pivot move or the Gengar has Spore or Disable) Assuming you use an "unsafe" move as Gengar switches in, then as the Perish count hits 1, you will run out of PP on the move you're encored into and will be able to pivot out on the perish turn unless the Gengar user decides to go for a double down with a Protect clone.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-588988665 (Turn 107)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-589527089 Also a second match in which I pester my opponent with illusion throughout the first half of the match, and eventually trap his regenvest Groudon and lock it into Poison Fang, letting Mewtwo clean his team.

Magnet pull is completely different in how it affects your decisions both before and after it's revealed, and I'll cover that later. Same goes for Normalize+Anchor Shot Gengar.
 
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[...]Lastly, Imposters are actually safe to use against Gengar. (unless you imposter something that lacks a pivot move or the Gengar has Spore or Disable) Assuming you use an "unsafe" move as Gengar switches in, then as the Perish count hits 1, you will run out of PP on the move you're encored into and will be able to pivot out on the perish turn unless the Gengar user decides to go for a double down with a Protect clone.
[...]
Counter measure to that: unsafe imposter-prone sets might run Volt Switch/Parting Shot, so that you can send a ground type or Soundproof to block their pivoting move, thus fainting.

On the other side of the discussion, you can also try to bait a Gengar with Mental Herb, so that you can eat an Encore (once) and remove it with a surprise. For example:

Rayquaza-Mega @ Mental Herb
Ability: Aerilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Secret Sword
- Core Enforcer
- Psycho Boost

Kill something with Secret Sword or remove hazard with Rapid Spin to bait Gengar in. Eat Encore, OHKO with Psycho Boost.
252+ SpA Rayquaza-Mega Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gengar-Mega: 350-414 (108 - 127.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It is doable on the physical side too; you require SE 120BP from 180 base atk/spatk, Psychic Fangs from MMX or STAB as Gengar is rather difficult to clearly OHKO. Alternatively SE attack + Pursuit does the same, but it needs 2 moveslots.

The most consistent user of this is Groudon, which survives the common coverage S-tag Gengar carries (Moongeist/Ice Beam) and OHKOes with Jolly Thousand Arrows. In practice, all Groudon needs to beat S-tag Gengar is the item slot.
Alternatively, even if this sucks, run Aroma Veil, to exchange the item slot with the ability slot.
Bonus point: an imposter won't see Mental Herb coming.
 
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Mental Herb is insanely niche (unless used on a suicide lead to ensure getting that sticky web off even against a faster taunter) and other items like Choice Band (for Groudon), Choice Specs (for Ray) or Safety Goggles are much better in most matchups.

And don't forget that Pursuit exists ;)
 
Mental Herb is insanely niche (unless used on a suicide lead to ensure getting that sticky web off even against a faster taunter) and other items like Choice Band (for Groudon), Choice Specs (for Ray) or Safety Goggles are much better in most matchups.

And don't forget that Pursuit exists ;)
It is invalidated by KS and Baton Pass. If Gengar doesn't switch out you become fodder to Strength Sap and you lose another mon.
 
if you have a shed shell mon, you can wait until the second perish turn and then switch out into the pursuit user. Gengar has to switch out to prevent dying to perish song, so that you can hopefully kill it with pursuit.
 

Sweet Jesus

Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...
Just dropping in my current opinion on gengarite trapping.

I want to start by saying I am under the impression the best way to win consistently in this tier is by using stall and tend to notice this when playing good players, which if true, makes trapping gengar particularily prone to feel like an overpowerful threat to good players who use stall.

Now what makes trapping gengar kind of broken is if it's on your team and you're playing against stall, you have a good chance at killing at least 2 mons by using a little patience and 1 or 2 defensive pivots. A damaged stall team often becomes much easier to break through since there's so many offensive threats to cover in this tier. The thing is, stallish teams are still the best teams imo and gengar's presence acts as a good counterweight that forces the meta to be a little more balanced because aside from trapping, this gengar is rather mediocre at everything else. It can't use an item or ability to boost it's attacking power or utility and has a very limited offensive movepool if it's optimized to kill what it's trapping.

Let's start by analyzing how one should build a trapping gengar. Obviously it has a gengarite and will usualy run illusion because it's the best ability to use on a mega evolving mon. This leaves gengar with fewer options to run a regular offensive set as he won't hit that hard. When it comes to the movepool, gengar will practicaly always run encore because it's just the best move to neutralize a threat since it can be repeated with 0 risk unlike spore which is also blocked by goggles and occasional grass type. Shell smash or QD can the be used to set up, but once again the lack of ability and item makes it suboptimal to actually sweep. you might rather want to run perish song because gengar can't guarantee he's killing certan defensive mons with raw offense. This leaves you with only 2 move slots left. Dual attacks can be pretty good and grant descent coverage, but what you really might want to consider is a healing or protective move, especially strength sap (you already suck against bouncers anyway). This will let you tank a couple of weak hits, widely increasing the range of possible moves you can encore and the safety with which you'll be able to send walls to the grave. Now this does leave you with the probelm of being a mono attacking mon and both your stabs are pretty bad to have without coverage. My point here is if you want your gengar to effectively trap and kill the widest range of threats, you have to build it in a way that makes it pretty shitty at anything else but trapping.

With 130 speed being very common in this tier, my experience using trapping gengar has been that it's very effective against stall, but is nearly the equivalent of playing 5 vs 6 when facing an offensive team as it is usualy defensless and bad at killing anything it hasn't encored. Anything you send gengar in that is possibly pivoting or considerably damaging to gengar can lead to gengar dying or some powerhouse that outspeeds and ohko's gengar coming in for free (you've already sold that you don't have dazzling so priority -ate users are free to threaten you too). Now since a the majority of walls have the possibility of pivoting or phazing or are simply ghost or magic bouncers, you're left with lower speed pivoting as the main way of encoring walls into irrelevant moves. If this fails, an offensive powerhouse like contrary m2y can simply come in and be assured he is getting a free move and you won't be retaliating with a sash or anything.

I feel gengarite might be too good against stall teams as you can't just add a mon to cover it unlike any other threat, but it pushes the high tier meta to be more balanced or offensive and when one actually uses it, he'll find he really isn't an optimal option when facing an offensive team making it harder to win consistently. To me the main bummer is it seems gengar makes the meta a little more match-up reliant and a little less skilled base but I'm ready to live with that if it nerfs stall.

Haven't built an opinion on magnet pull that much, I barely ever see it. Once again it does take away a mon's ability which is essnetial to making an optimal set, but practically every team has a steel and so few steels actualy have an answer to Pdon beacause of thousand arrows. He's also much bulkier than gengar.

tl:dr
Trapping gengar has limited options since you have no item or ability to do meaningfull damage outside of trapping and it's pretty bad against offensive teams because it's offensive options are outclassed and it isn't stopping a sweeper. Ghosts and Pivoting walls are also common and good and if you're enemy pivots to an offensive threat like m2y on your switch, you might take big damage.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
Just dropping in my current opinion on gengarite trapping.

I want to start by saying I am under the impression the best way to win consistently in this tier is by using stall and tend to notice this when playing good players, which if true, makes trapping gengar particularily prone to feel like an overpowerful threat to good players who use stall.

Now what makes trapping gengar kind of broken is if it's on your team and you're playing against stall, you have a good chance at killing at least 2 mons by using a little patience and 1 or 2 defensive pivots. A damaged stall team often becomes much easier to break through since there's so many offensive threats to cover in this tier. The thing is, stallish teams are still the best teams imo and gengar's presence acts as a good counterweight that forces the meta to be a little more balanced because aside from trapping, this gengar is rather mediocre at everything else. It can't use an item or ability to boost it's attacking power or utility and has a very limited offensive movepool if it's optimized to kill what it's trapping.

Let's start by analyzing how one should build a trapping gengar. Obviously it has a gengarite and will usualy run illusion because it's the best ability to use on a mega evolving mon. This leaves gengar with fewer options to run a regular offensive set as he won't hit that hard. When it comes to the movepool, gengar will practicaly always run encore because it's just the best move to neutralize a threat since it can be repeated with 0 risk unlike spore which is also blocked by goggles and occasional grass type. Shell smash or QD can the be used to set up, but once again the lack of ability and item makes it suboptimal to actually sweep. you might rather want to run perish song because gengar can't guarantee he's killing certan defensive mons with raw offense. This leaves you with only 2 move slots left. Dual attacks can be pretty good and grant descent coverage, but what you really might want to consider is a healing or protective move, especially strength sap (you already suck against bouncers anyway). This will let you tank a couple of weak hits, widely increasing the range of possible moves you can encore and the safety with which you'll be able to send walls to the grave. Now this does leave you with the probelm of being a mono attacking mon and both your stabs are pretty bad to have without coverage. My point here is if you want your gengar to effectively trap and kill the widest range of threats, you have to build it in a way that makes it pretty shitty at anything else but trapping.

With 130 speed being very common in this tier, my experience using trapping gengar has been that it's very effective against stall, but is nearly the equivalent of playing 5 vs 6 when facing an offensive team as it is usualy defensless and bad at killing anything it hasn't encored. Anything you send gengar in that is possibly pivoting or considerably damaging to gengar can lead to gengar dying or some powerhouse that outspeeds and ohko's gengar coming in for free (you've already sold that you don't have dazzling so priority -ate users are free to threaten you too). Now since a the majority of walls have the possibility of pivoting or phazing or are simply ghost or magic bouncers, you're left with lower speed pivoting as the main way of encoring walls into irrelevant moves. If this fails, an offensive powerhouse like contrary m2y can simply come in and be assured he is getting a free move and you won't be retaliating with a sash or anything.

I feel gengarite might be too good against stall teams as you can't just add a mon to cover it unlike any other threat, but it pushes the high tier meta to be more balanced or offensive and when one actually uses it, he'll find he really isn't an optimal option when facing an offensive team making it harder to win consistently. To me the main bummer is it seems gengar makes the meta a little more match-up reliant and a little less skilled base but I'm ready to live with that if it nerfs stall.

Haven't built an opinion on magnet pull that much, I barely ever see it. Once again it does take away a mon's ability which is essnetial to making an optimal set, but practically every team has a steel and so few steels actualy have an answer to Pdon beacause of thousand arrows. He's also much bulkier than gengar.

tl:dr
Trapping gengar has limited options since you have no item or ability to do meaningfull damage outside of trapping and it's pretty bad against offensive teams because it's offensive options are outclassed and it isn't stopping a sweeper. Ghosts and Pivoting walls are also common and good and if you're enemy pivots to an offensive threat like m2y on your switch, you might take big damage.
i think-no offense- this is a slightly misinformed opinion. the problem with shadow tag isnt just what it does with stall. even offense is scared of stag gengar, because a lot of teams typically NEED to run bulky pokemon to tank the offensive mons people run, (for example, pdon teams run slowbro/giratina, well once slowbro is gone, the opponents pdon is unable to be used because chansey can just come in and sweep. THAT is the "true" issue with shadow tag. and stall typically runs a plethora of ways to shrug off stag gar. and why magpull could be considered just as much of an issue.

basically the problem isnt that the mon trapped is dead, its that the mon trapped needed to be alive so you could use the mon that was walled from it without fearing chansey. this is how you get the most out of mega gengar/magpull and why its worth banning.

basically vs stall you eliminate the mon that walls your wallbreaker, and for offense you eliminate the mons that wall the opponents pdon/ray/mewtwo etc to dramatically hinder the opposing teams team structure.
 

Pikachuun

the entire waruda machine
May as well move this to the main thread

Can somebody please explain to me why this is ban worthy?
Honestly Gengarite is busted in my playing so far and even before this suspect, Magnet Pull I'm on the fence about but I'm convinced it is as well because it can make uncompetitive situations a reality like Kl4ng brought up (in the suspect reqs thread, ofc). Plus, you can easily pick off Steel types as well if you play your cards right with minimal issues, so...
  • "Splashable"ility:
    Can be slapped onto nearly any 'mon, regardless of role, stat spread or moveset .e.g. Shadow Tag and Wonder Guard
Well, technically, you can't slap Gengarite on anyone, just Gengar, making it a bit more predictable, but moveset at its core doesn't really matter. Just run Perish Song and something to lock the opponent into a situation that they can't switch, and there you go. You can even use offensive sets (they don't work as well, but hey, you can use them). I've even seen some with Ice Beam to pick off zygod, which also works well enough.
As for Magnet Pull, you can slap it on anyone, and most of the time it can work. Fairies can run it as an improof for Dialga depending on the set, Kl4ng's core can be run using any Steel type even if it's niche, not to mention its main use on PDon. Speaking of, it doesn't have to be restricted in that aspect to just PDon! You can run it on my wife, Reshiram, MMX, tons of things just to pick off steels if you so desired.
  • Extreme Augmentation:
    The capabilities of the 'mon it is on that the set in question are difficult or impossible to check or counter. This implies that the power originates from the ability and that the choice of 'mon, item and even moveset, is irrelevant. e.g. Pure Power, Parental Bond
Now this is where things get dicier. Traditionally, Gengarite, Shadow Tag, and other trapping abilities already are "uncounterable" since you can't exactly switch out of them without a pivot move/shed shell, so handling them with this sort of mentality has been quite controversial in the past. Magnet Pull sorta works like this versus steels. And since this is BH, I'll just ask what you can do to prepare for them, which several posts have already explained for Shadow Tag and can be extended to Magnet Pull.
Friendly reminder that you can run any moveset to pick off any threat you see fit, so if you really wanted to be that guy you could run the same set as Gengarite Gengar typically run, just without, well, Gengarite Gengar, to pick off Steel types.
 
May as well move this to the main thread


Honestly Gengarite is busted in my playing so far and even before this suspect, Magnet Pull I'm on the fence about but I'm convinced it is as well because it can make uncompetitive situations a reality like Kl4ng brought up (in the suspect reqs thread, ofc). Plus, you can easily pick off Steel types as well if you play your cards right with minimal issues, so...

Well, technically, you can't slap Gengarite on anyone, just Gengar, making it a bit more predictable, but moveset at its core doesn't really matter. Just run Perish Song and something to lock the opponent into a situation that they can't switch, and there you go. You can even use offensive sets (they don't work as well, but hey, you can use them). I've even seen some with Ice Beam to pick off zygod, which also works well enough.
As for Magnet Pull, you can slap it on anyone, and most of the time it can work. Fairies can run it as an improof for Dialga depending on the set, Kl4ng's core can be run using any Steel type even if it's niche, not to mention its main use on PDon. Speaking of, it doesn't have to be restricted in that aspect to just PDon! You can run it on my wife, Reshiram, MMX, tons of things just to pick off steels if you so desired.

Now this is where things get dicier. Traditionally, Gengarite, Shadow Tag, and other trapping abilities already are "uncounterable" since you can't exactly switch out of them without a pivot move/shed shell, so handling them with this sort of mentality has been quite controversial in the past. Magnet Pull sorta works like this versus steels. And since this is BH, I'll just ask what you can do to prepare for them, which several posts have already explained for Shadow Tag and can be extended to Magnet Pull.
Friendly reminder that you can run any moveset to pick off any threat you see fit, so if you really wanted to be that guy you could run the same set as Gengarite Gengar typically run, just without, well, Gengarite Gengar, to pick off Steel types.
Thank you but I still don't believe its ban worthy :/ We make teams n try to counter as best as possible based on current OU BH mons
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
Thank you but I still don't believe its ban worthy :/ We make teams n try to counter as best as possible based on current OU BH mons
the issue is shadow tag isnt counterable. you need shed shell to augment its viability, but thats easily rectified by just running knock off. if you have a mon thats able to be broken by shadow tag, no mons on your team counter it. THATS the main issue at hand.

best way of summarizing it, is that gengar forces a 1v1 scenario in which it can decide weather or not its unfavorable. and with encore, its only a matter of time before you defog/recover/mess up. and even if you have 5 mons immune to shadow tag, the one mon is a liability to your team, making it a 5v6 even before gengar decides to do anything. but naturally, its IMPOSSIBLE to make 5 mons immune to shadow tag. as you either need 5 ghosts/magic bouncers/oblivious mons, which is REALLY limiting. and shed shell is only a checking option until you knock it off. which any gengar team will run.

looking at the previous posts you made, ill just say "templates are templates" nothing is truely set in stone for smogon. and OM's arent really attached to the official tiers to begin with. but even then, there are a few exceptions to this rule; uncompetitive aspects. aspects that eliminate skill and force favorable matchups. shadow tag(ang gengarite) fits this to a tee(so does magpull but people just ignore this because steels are only 1 slot on your team...one slot that determines if you get swept by ray/mm2y or not but i digress ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ )
 
the issue is shadow tag isnt counterable. you need shed shell to augment its viability, but thats easily rectified by just running knock off. if you have a mon thats able to be broken by shadow tag, no mons on your team counter it. THATS the main issue at hand.

best way of summarizing it, is that gengar forces a 1v1 scenario in which it can decide weather or not its unfavorable. and with encore, its only a matter of time before you defog/recover/mess up. and even if you have 5 mons immune to shadow tag, the one mon is a liability to your team, making it a 5v6 even before gengar decides to do anything. but naturally, its IMPOSSIBLE to make 5 mons immune to shadow tag. as you either need 5 ghosts/magic bouncers/oblivious mons, which is REALLY limiting. and shed shell is only a checking option until you knock it off. which any gengar team will run.

looking at the previous posts you made, ill just say "templates are templates" nothing is truely set in stone for smogon. and OM's arent really attached to the official tiers to begin with. but even then, there are a few exceptions to this rule; uncompetitive aspects. aspects that eliminate skill and force favorable matchups. shadow tag(ang gengarite) fits this to a tee(so does magpull but people just ignore this because steels are only 1 slot on your team...one slot that determines if you get swept by ray/mm2y or not but i digress ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ )
I think the key argument for the difference between gengarite gengar and magpull is that it is clearly unreasonable/uncompetitive to expect someone to make their team worse against every other threat so that every mon can beat mgar (to me anyway), whereas it is less unreasonable to expect someone to make one or two mons slightly sub optimal in order to avoid magpull such as by running aegislash, shed shell, prankster parting shot or just a non steel type. (I say less unreasonable because people can and have stated the view that it is still too much of a strain on team building.)
 
It should be reiterated that trapping doesn't necessarily only neuter Stall teams. For example, Gengar can switch into Gigas' Facade and Encore and Perish it. Or you can catch an opponent's, say, Kartana with something that it can't beat, trap, and set-up on it. Also, Magnet Pull pretty much forces every Steel in the meta to run Shed Shell or a pivot move, lest they risk becoming a free KO or, worse, a liability.


It also should be reminded that, if you're not absolutely sure the opponent doesn't have a trapping ability, the suspectible Pokemon are vulnerable to being trapped and KOed for free, Stag or Magnet Pull, especially if they lack Shed Shell or a pivot move. For example, you see the opponent has M.Gengar and sigh in relief that there's no Stag. You calmly try to spin away hazards with Solgaleo a ways into the fight and Gengar switches in. Oh, no problem, you'll just swap and- oh, its a surprise Magnet Pull set. And now you're Encored into a useless move and repeatedly bopped by Judgement until you're KOed. 15 turns later, your opponent gets their Psychic Surge Mewtwo-Y in, Shell Smashes, and sweeps with it because the Solgaleo you had set-up to counter that situation got KOed for free, and by a sub-optimal set no less. (And its only sub-optimal until Stag gets banned.)

And what counterplay did you have in that situation? Zilch unless you somehow knew Gengar was Magnet Pull or you acted so paranoid and refused to click Rapid Spin until you were absolutely certain there were no trappers. And even in the latter section, the sheer possibility of being trapped means the opponent could set hazards and laugh at you endlessly as they chip your team for free over and over because clicking Rapid Spin is too dangerous.



Another situation to compare, you have Regenvest Kyogre on your team with Volt Switch and Steam Eruption. You Volt Switch and they swap in Primal Groudon. Shrugging, you fire off a Steam Eruption and their Primaldonturns out to be Water Absorb and they smack you fairly hard with 1k Arrows. Your other coverage options, Moonblast and Rapid Spin, do nothing to it, so you're forced to manually switch to Fur Coat Zygarde, who eats a another 1k Arrows, but otherwise will live to scare Primaldon off again another day. So here, the opponent has to figure out how to break your Kyogre and Zygarde and actually outplay you, despite it being a very similar situation (firing a move that turns out to be useless), whereas with trapping, they just need to get one prediction right.
 
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Sweet Jesus

Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...
i think-no offense- this is a slightly misinformed opinion. the problem with shadow tag isnt just what it does with stall. even offense is scared of stag gengar, because a lot of teams typically NEED to run bulky pokemon to tank the offensive mons people run, (for example, pdon teams run slowbro/giratina, well once slowbro is gone, the opponents pdon is unable to be used because chansey can just come in and sweep. THAT is the "true" issue with shadow tag. and stall typically runs a plethora of ways to shrug off stag gar. and why magpull could be considered just as much of an issue.

basically the problem isnt that the mon trapped is dead, its that the mon trapped needed to be alive so you could use the mon that was walled from it without fearing chansey. this is how you get the most out of mega gengar/magpull and why its worth banning.

basically vs stall you eliminate the mon that walls your wallbreaker, and for offense you eliminate the mons that wall the opponents pdon/ray/mewtwo etc to dramatically hinder the opposing teams team structure.
The thing is this seems bad on paper but let's analyze everything gengar must go through to trap those defensive mons and kill them. First off, shedinja, aegislash and giratina are all immune to shadow tag, everything with magic bounce is basicaly immune to all his shenanigans and anything with assault vest + regen is basicaly spamming u-turn or moves gengar can't switch into or encore (except rapid spin I guess). This leaves us with flash fire steels, poison heal mons (other than giratina) and prankster users. The latter can simply run something like spore + u-turn, parting shot or can run a shed shell along with the ff steels. All those 3 types of walls can also run any pivoting move which although not flawless will force gengar to take a chance anytime he comes in without a slower pivoter. I've already talked about how easy to punish gengar is once you've made a mispredict, so I won't reapeat that. I still haven't mentioned gengar can't come in on core enforcer or spectral thief or knock off which is basically the 3 most popular offensive moves defensive mons run after u-turn.

Sure it's a completely different kind of threat and it has the power to turn a game to one's favour all by itself, but a lot of offensive behemoths with insane coverage will find just as much opportunities to do as much damage, don't need such specific conditions to come in and aren't a waste of a mon as long as those conditions are not met. More often than not, for gengar to shine more than they will, you're opponent needs to cover the whole catalog of offensive threats and for that, he needs to go full stall.

Of all the mons gengar threatens, I'd say it's the poison healers he threatens the most, but observe something like maudino and you'll realize that if it wasn't for tag gar, there would practically be no other way to get rid of him than by brute force and the thing is stupidly bulky, has a great typing and recovers 1/8th of his hp every turn. Core enforcer, knock off, every status move all do nothing to him. I think people get pissed tag gengar gets rid of him a little too easily, but no holy presence is forcing us to keep such things so risk free and hard to kill and have stall be so good. (says jesus lol)

It should be reiterated that trapping doesn't necessarily only neuter Stall teams. For example, Gengar can switch into Gigas' Facade and Encore and Perish it. Or you can catch an opponent's, say, Kartana with something that it can't beat, trap, and set-up on it. Also, Magnet Pull pretty much forces every Steel in the meta to run Shed Shell or a pivot move, lest they risk becoming a free KO or, worse, a liability.


It also should be reminded that, if you're not absolutely sure the opponent doesn't have a trapping ability, the suspectible Pokemon are vulnerable to being trapped and KOed for free, Stag or Magnet Pull, especially if they lack Shed Shell or a pivot move. For example, you see the opponent has M.Gengar and sigh in relief that there's no Stag. You calmly try to spin away hazards with Solgaleo a ways into the fight and Gengar switches in. Oh, no problem, you'll just swap and- oh, its a surprise Magnet Pull set. And now you're Encored into a useless move and repeatedly bopped by Judgement until you're KOed. 15 turns later, your opponent gets their Psychic Surge Mewtwo-Y in, Shell Smashes, and sweeps with it because the Solgaleo you had set-up to counter that situation got KOed for free, and by a sub-optimal set no less. (And its only sub-optimal until Stag gets banned.)

And what counterplay did you have in that situation? Zilch unless you somehow knew Gengar was Magnet Pull or you acted so paranoid and refused to click Rapid Spin until you were absolutely certain there were no trappers. And even in the latter section, the sheer possibility of being trapped means the opponent could set hazards and laugh at you endlessly as they chip your team for free over and over because clicking Rapid Spin is too dangerous.



Another situation to compare, you have Regenvest Kyogre on your team with Volt Switch and Steam Eruption. You Volt Switch and they swap in Primal Groudon. Shrugging, you fire off a Steam Eruption and their Primaldonturns out to be Water Absorb and they smack you fairly hard with 1k Arrows. Your other coverage options, Moonblast and Rapid Spin, do nothing to it, so you're forced to manually switch to Fur Coat Zygarde, who eats a another 1k Arrows, but otherwise will live to scare Primaldon off again another day. So here, the opponent has to figure out how to break your Kyogre and Zygarde and actually outplay you, despite it being a very similar situation (firing a move that turns out to be useless), whereas with trapping, they just need to get one prediction right.
Let's take your gigas example. The 3 other moves gengar is likely to switch in are knock off, spore or shift gear. There is absolutely nothing gengar can do to switch in any of those moves. Shadow tag is being suspected because it's too risk free, but you have 3 chances out of 4 of saccing your mon right there. Gengar can't really switch safely on a lot of offensive mons or moves, only normal and fighting and the rare poison and bug (bug=u-turn 80% of the time). It can't switch-in on any set up moves either because every common one will boost your speed to levels gengar can't reach. Tag-gengar is pretty shitty against every offensive mon it doesn't outspeed and ohko and it's power to trap defensive mons is much more relevant to it's suspect status. I've defended why it isn't that much more powerful than other offensive threats in the answer above (same post).

As for your magnet pull gengar example, it seems a little irrelevant. I don't think about refraining to rapid spin when I see an arceus either and I'd rather trap that solgaleo with him more than with gengar since I don't take the chance of dying to a sunsteel strike (same for groudon though I guess you'll have to run a speed+ nature to stop him from u-turning). The reason gengarite was not banned along with shadow tag in gengeral is because gengar has a pretty shitty stat distribution for a trapper, running an inferior trapping ability just to suboptimaly fool your opponent seems just plain bad. To be fair, I believe that was an argument for magnet pull and not gengar though. I've already stated I haven't positionned myself on magnet pull yet.
 
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I know everyone is talking about trapping right now but its going to be banned by a landslide vote so I dont feel much of a need to weigh in.

I'm gonna talk about spore
Honestly, spore is something that wasn't really much of a problem in gen 6, sorta like how ev limit removal exacerbated the issues gengarite created.
It was completely fine when you could waltz in with your 2 poison heals and two goggles and between 2/3s of your team find a check to spore. Poison heal is kind of bad now. Not like it's horrible, but definitely sub par on non fairies. And things can knock off goggles. ANYONE WHO IS RUNNING SPORE AND IS SEMI INTELLIGENT IS ALSO RUNNING KNOCK OFF. During a 150 turn battle goggles are less of a check and more of a, "lol, did u expect that to stop me?" Spore has "checks," but the problem is is they can all be overcome. Goggles can and will be knocked off. Your poison heal can be core enforced, and your bounce is now asleep because mold breaker dont care and honestly, who the fck uses grass types in BH. I don't hear anyone saying we should unban chatter because soundproof exists. The problem with chatter isn't that it is like an instant OHKO to your mons, but the fact that it takes the emphasis of the match away from skill and is infinitely splashable. Spore is the SAME DAMN THING. You can put it on whatever the hell you want. I've met teams in the 16 and 17 hundreds with 4+ mons with spore. That is f****** ridiculous. How is that not a problem?

So here is my solution.

I've heard alot of people calling for a sleep clause, but I don't think that is really necessary. It would certainly solve the problem but I dislike clauses in general because they seem to overarching for me. Banning spore would fix the problem nicely honestly. Lovely kiss has 25% less accuracy and the moment you aren't netting 1-3 free turns with NO INHERENT DOWNSIDES is the moment you aren't running sleep.




If you are too lazy to read this the basic point follows as, goggles don't work, other checks are worse, why the hell is this a thing. Ban spore because it's infinitely splashable and last I checked is
  • "A move (attack or status) that removes the emphasis on skill, planning and/or preparation and moves the outcome to forces not in control of the player e.g. Chatter"
.Lovely kiss has 75% accuracy, that is manageable.
 
I know everyone is talking about trapping right now but its going to be banned by a landslide vote so I dont feel much of a need to weigh in.

I'm gonna talk about spore
Honestly, spore is something that wasn't really much of a problem in gen 6, sorta like how ev limit removal exacerbated the issues gengarite created.
It was completely fine when you could waltz in with your 2 poison heals and two goggles and between 2/3s of your team find a check to spore. Poison heal is kind of bad now. Not like it's horrible, but definitely sub par on non fairies. And things can knock off goggles. ANYONE WHO IS RUNNING SPORE AND IS SEMI INTELLIGENT IS ALSO RUNNING KNOCK OFF. During a 150 turn battle goggles are less of a check and more of a, "lol, did u expect that to stop me?" Spore has "checks," but the problem is is they can all be overcome. Goggles can and will be knocked off. Your poison heal can be core enforced, and your bounce is now asleep because mold breaker dont care and honestly, who the fck uses grass types in BH. I don't hear anyone saying we should unban chatter because soundproof exists. The problem with chatter isn't that it is like an instant OHKO to your mons, but the fact that it takes the emphasis of the match away from skill and is infinitely splashable. Spore is the SAME DAMN THING. You can put it on whatever the hell you want. I've met teams in the 16 and 17 hundreds with 4+ mons with spore. That is f****** ridiculous. How is that not a problem?

So here is my solution.

I've heard alot of people calling for a sleep clause, but I don't think that is really necessary. It would certainly solve the problem but I dislike clauses in general because they seem to overarching for me. Banning spore would fix the problem nicely honestly. Lovely kiss has 25% less accuracy and the moment you aren't netting 1-3 free turns with NO INHERENT DOWNSIDES is the moment you aren't running sleep.




If you are too lazy to read this the basic point follows as, goggles don't work, other checks are worse, why the hell is this a thing. Ban spore because it's infinitely splashable and last I checked is
  • "A move (attack or status) that removes the emphasis on skill, planning and/or preparation and moves the outcome to forces not in control of the player e.g. Chatter"
.Lovely kiss has 75% accuracy, that is manageable.
So you're saying the solution to a move being uncompetitive is to replace it with something that has exactly the same uncompetitive aspects but has less counterplay and further removes player agency?
 
Sweet Jesus : A major problem is you're assuming Gengar is manually switching into Gigas (or, really, into anything else). Unless the user is either playing poorly, is out of better options, or is absolutely confident they have the prediction right, they're not going to manually switch Gengar in on anything. It's going to be slow pivoted in after you've clicked the move. Gigas won't have the opportunity to bop Gengar with a non-Facade move unless the Gengar user is crossing their fingers and praying on the switch. If you use anything else, they'll bring in the Gigas check (or check to whatever other thing we're talking about). So, for example, if they have a Magic Bounce Yveltal with Whirlwind they keep bringing in, Gigas might go for Facade to try to get as much damage as possible before being shuffled out ineffectually. And then, surprise, it was Illusion Gengar this time! Or the Yveltal reveals U-Turn to slow pivot Gengar in after the Facade. Or, you know, I can work out a dozen other scenarios for just Gigas with different Pokemon supporting it. Pretty much, because of the combination of Illusion, Gigas is practically banned from clicking Facade until Gengar is dealt with.

And even then, if the Gengar is running Intimidate instead of Illusion (not every Stag Gengar is Illusion), it can actually Encore Gigas into Knock Off and win. And has a decent chance of winning a 1v1 if its +Defense nature for whatever reason and carries Strength Sap.

Once we factor stuff in such as potential paralysis support, or weird support stuff like El Mustacho's Normalize Entrainment Eject Button Deo-S, it doesn't even need to outspeed offensive stuff, just teammates to handle or cripple what stops it and can safely pivot it in when the opponent dares to click any move that doesn't threaten Gengar on that turn.

I largely play balance and even though I have offensive Pokemon who can just piss of Stag Gengar quite easily on pretty much every team, the defensive and support side really feels the crunch of not being able to use their defensive and support moves safely, even if Gengar has yet to take to the field in the battle at all.


The Magnet Pull Gengar thing was an example on M.Pull and the unpredictable nature of trapping in general, not S.Tag. And I admitted the set is, at present, suboptimal, though could be a good way to remove a Solgaleo or something to pave the way for a Mewtwo sweep or other such. You can sub in something more optimal, like M.Pull Groudon, and the situation works more or less.
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
I know everyone is talking about trapping right now but its going to be banned by a landslide vote so I dont feel much of a need to weigh in.

I'm gonna talk about spore
Honestly, spore is something that wasn't really much of a problem in gen 6, sorta like how ev limit removal exacerbated the issues gengarite created.
It was completely fine when you could waltz in with your 2 poison heals and two goggles and between 2/3s of your team find a check to spore. Poison heal is kind of bad now. Not like it's horrible, but definitely sub par on non fairies. And things can knock off goggles. ANYONE WHO IS RUNNING SPORE AND IS SEMI INTELLIGENT IS ALSO RUNNING KNOCK OFF. During a 150 turn battle goggles are less of a check and more of a, "lol, did u expect that to stop me?" Spore has "checks," but the problem is is they can all be overcome. Goggles can and will be knocked off. Your poison heal can be core enforced, and your bounce is now asleep because mold breaker dont care and honestly, who the fck uses grass types in BH. I don't hear anyone saying we should unban chatter because soundproof exists. The problem with chatter isn't that it is like an instant OHKO to your mons, but the fact that it takes the emphasis of the match away from skill and is infinitely splashable. Spore is the SAME DAMN THING. You can put it on whatever the hell you want. I've met teams in the 16 and 17 hundreds with 4+ mons with spore. That is f****** ridiculous. How is that not a problem?

So here is my solution.

I've heard alot of people calling for a sleep clause, but I don't think that is really necessary. It would certainly solve the problem but I dislike clauses in general because they seem to overarching for me. Banning spore would fix the problem nicely honestly. Lovely kiss has 25% less accuracy and the moment you aren't netting 1-3 free turns with NO INHERENT DOWNSIDES is the moment you aren't running sleep.




If you are too lazy to read this the basic point follows as, goggles don't work, other checks are worse, why the hell is this a thing. Ban spore because it's infinitely splashable and last I checked is
  • "A move (attack or status) that removes the emphasis on skill, planning and/or preparation and moves the outcome to forces not in control of the player e.g. Chatter"
.Lovely kiss has 75% accuracy, that is manageable.
I agree with you. People say "Spore don't need a ban, there is viable counterplay named Safety Goggles and Poison Heal."

But Safety Goggles is simply an item that has absolutely no relevant usage other than blocking Spore (even blocking weather damage is not relevant considering most users of Safety Goggles are Registeel, Zygarde-C, and others). Spore forces support 'mons to run Safety Goggles over other useful items such as Leftovers, Rocky Helmet, and others.

We argued Magnet Pull is uncompetitive due to the ability's trait that allows the uncompetitive elimination of Steel-types. I would not say Spore is far from being uncompetitive because it is a dirty move that lets stuff like MMY or Mega Ray bypass AV users by putting them to sleep and leaving the rest to the RNG, and lets PH Regigigas bypass Unaware Zygarde-C and non-Magic Bounce Giratina in some occasions. Also, Poison Heal is less reliable way to stop Spore spams this generation due to the abundance of Core Enforcer.

* "A move (attack or status) that removes the emphasis on skill, planning and/or preparation and moves the outcome to forces not in control of the player e.g. Chatter"

If any of you would say Spore is a competitive move, I do not know what to say. It is a 100% accurate move (which was favored over Dark Void last generation despite the latter's ability to bypass Goggles) that completely shuts down anything that does not carry Magic Bounce or Safety Goggles (Comaphaze is not relevant, it doesn't bounce hazards like Magic Bounce and Core Enforcer spams can be relatively easily dealt by carrying Fairy).
 
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So you're saying the solution to a move being uncompetitive is to replace it with something that has exactly the same uncompetitive aspects but has less counterplay and further removes player agency?
Hey you missed the part where he addressed that.

"Lovely kiss has 25% less accuracy and the moment you aren't netting 1-3 free turns with NO INHERENT DOWNSIDES is the moment you aren't running sleep."

Ppl don't run lovely kiss now and they won't (maybe) run it a no spore meta because it's just too unreliable, juggling sleep turns and miss chance is not a worthy or consistent strat. The thing with spore is that you don't miss, so you lose nothing by sporing and then attacking.

That's also why say chatter is banned but Dynamic Punch isn't.

If lovely kiss is a problem then we can ban that next anyway.
 
Hey you missed the part where he addressed that.

"Lovely kiss has 25% less accuracy and the moment you aren't netting 1-3 free turns with NO INHERENT DOWNSIDES is the moment you aren't running sleep."

Ppl don't run lovely kiss now and they won't (maybe) run it a no spore meta because it's just too unreliable, juggling sleep turns and miss chance is not a worthy or consistent strat. The thing with spore is that you don't miss, so you lose nothing by sporing and then attacking.

That's also why say chatter is banned but Dynamic Punch isn't.

If lovely kiss is a problem then we can ban that next anyway.
I agree that lovely kiss isn't as good as spore, but this is what I addressed as player agency. Lovely kiss can be as good as spore unless you miss, so whether or not you succeed is limited by factors beyond either player's control, whereas with spore the ball is firmly in the players park. What I meant to say was any reasoning that would apply to spore being banworthy should also apply to sleep as a whole since they all have the same uncompetitive aspect, it's just some are only uncompetitive when they hit.
 

cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
got a couple problems with the ban guide

let's start with the mon one:
These are the following properties a Pokemon should have to be considered banworthy:
  • Inherent/Natural Qualities:
    • A banworthy Pokemon should be considered first and foremost as a blank state with no ability or specific moveset, on the merits of its stats in both an offensive and defensive setting. It should outshine every other Pokemon in the tier and be considered head and shoulders above them.
    • In addition, their typing would grant both a great offensive STAB as well as uncommon or easy to patch weaknesses (e.g. by an ability), and also be neutral or resistant to common hazards
  • Multidimensional and Unique Sets:
    • Because of its stats and typing, the Pokemon can run many different sets and different roles, all of which vary from passable to dominant in the tier, whether defensive or offensive
    • It is important to get past simply being the jack of all trades. There has to be a subset of the main sets that can be run on the 'mon that are unique to it, either from its STAB combination, defensive typing or more
  • Centralization: Centralization here would take everything that has been said above into account. This includes the following aspects:
    • One of (or both):
      • It's difficult to win without using the banworthy pokemon or
      • Checks and counters for this mon are insufficient, niche or uncommon to the point of forcing the decision to either prepare for the ban-worthy Pokemon uniquely or the rest of the tier
    • The Pokemon is so good at different roles/sets that preparation for one leads to a loss against the other
the bolded parts in particular are what i have problems with. let's start off with
In addition, their typing would grant both a great offensive STAB as well as uncommon or easy to patch weaknesses (e.g. by an ability), and also be neutral or resistant to common hazards
now let's play "break a pokemon"

Cryogonal-Woke
Type: Ice
Stats: 80/50/50/200/130/145

252 SpA Choice Specs Cryogonal Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 318-376 (87.3 - 103.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Refrigerate Cryogonal Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 399-469 (95.9 - 112.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

from the other ban criteria, we can tell that this thing is pretty broken. it's pretty difficult to win without it, and a refrigerate set alone would cause a crazy influx of soundproof users and flash fire steels, and mons faster than base 145 (basically deo-a and mosa) or scarfers would be needed to check it.

how about its typing? does a weakness to sunsteel/fighting/fire/stealth rock hold it back from being broken? no. cryogonal doesn't care about your sneaky pebbles or slower sunsteel user that's about to get ohkoed.

personally i think that you used the primals (which were the only mons to get banned in bh) as a benchmark for banworthiness which makes sense but this part just seems really irrelevant.

Because of its stats and typing, the Pokemon can run many different sets and different roles, all of which vary from passable to dominant in the tier, whether defensive or offensive
what if it has only one viable set but that set is considered broken?


Guzzlord-Police-Immune
Type: Dark/Dragon
Stats: 900/1/1/1/1/1

this is a really dumb (and impossible) example i know but yeah. basically this is a mon that is really really good with imposter but awful with anything else. it can run a plate or even memory viably or it can completely negate chip damage with leftovers. i think this might push imposter over the edge. but imposter chansey is fine, guzzlord is the broken component here. in 1 set it just beats everything and switches in on deo-a.
An ability should be considered for ban based on:
  • "Splashable"ility:
    Can be slapped onto nearly any 'mon, regardless of role, stat spread or moveset .e.g. Shadow Tag and Wonder Guard
  • Extreme Augmentation: The capabilities of the 'mon it is on that the set in question are difficult or impossible to check or counter. This implies that the power originates from the ability and that the choice of 'mon, item and even moveset, is irrelevant. e.g. Pure Power, Parental Bond
i think that these both have the same problem: they describe broken abilities as something you can just slap on any mon and win.

i honestly don't think that the "splashableility" part really says anything that the "extreme augmentation" part doesn't, like the examples given still fall under extreme augmentation. you literally can't counter shadow tag, and wonder guard is just moldy/sungeist/status.

now on to extreme augmentation. i think the last part is the one that doesn't really make sense: "the choice of mon, item and even moveset is irrelevant." like of course they're relevant, water bubble isn't broken if you don't have a strong water move or an attacking stat above araquanid's. i think that the word "irrelevant" is unclear here, like it should just emphasize the fact that the ability is broken and the other stuff isn't.

i would like to discuss stakeout next, gonna share my thoughts next post. what do you guys think about it?
 
got a couple problems with the ban guide

let's start with the mon one:

the bolded parts in particular are what i have problems with. let's start off with


now let's play "break a pokemon"

Cryogonal-Woke
Type: Ice
Stats: 80/50/50/200/130/145

252 SpA Choice Specs Cryogonal Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 318-376 (87.3 - 103.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Refrigerate Cryogonal Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 399-469 (95.9 - 112.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

from the other ban criteria, we can tell that this thing is pretty broken. it's pretty difficult to win without it, and a refrigerate set alone would cause a crazy influx of soundproof users and flash fire steels, and mons faster than base 145 (basically deo-a and mosa) or scarfers would be needed to check it.

how about its typing? does a weakness to sunsteel/fighting/fire/stealth rock hold it back from being broken? no. cryogonal doesn't care about your sneaky pebbles or slower sunsteel user that's about to get ohkoed.

personally i think that you used the primals (which were the only mons to get banned in bh) as a benchmark for banworthiness which makes sense but this part just seems really irrelevant.


what if it has only one viable set but that set is considered broken?


Guzzlord-Police-Immune
Type: Dark/Dragon
Stats: 900/1/1/1/1/1

this is a really dumb (and impossible) example i know but yeah. basically this is a mon that is really really good with imposter but awful with anything else. it can run a plate or even memory viably or it can completely negate chip damage with leftovers. i think this might push imposter over the edge. but imposter chansey is fine, guzzlord is the broken component here. in 1 set it just beats everything and switches in on deo-a.

i think that these both have the same problem: they describe broken abilities as something you can just slap on any mon and win.

i honestly don't think that the "splashableility" part really says anything that the "extreme augmentation" part doesn't, like the examples given still fall under extreme augmentation. you literally can't counter shadow tag, and wonder guard is just moldy/sungeist/status.

now on to extreme augmentation. i think the last part is the one that doesn't really make sense: "the choice of mon, item and even moveset is irrelevant." like of course they're relevant, water bubble isn't broken if you don't have a strong water move or an attacking stat above araquanid's. i think that the word "irrelevant" is unclear here, like it should just emphasize the fact that the ability is broken and the other stuff isn't.

i would like to discuss stakeout next, gonna share my thoughts next post. what do you guys think about it?
agreed that defensive typing is generally not important for a fast offensive pokemon. You probably intended the cryogonal as an upgrade over mewtwo y which means that every team that had mewtwo y but didnt particularly need pterrain support is going to use that instead. Compared to mewtwo, psychic is a much worse offensive typing than ice while the two are equally bad on the defensive.

The guzzlord example though really doesnt reveal much. there is only a 10% difference between base 1 and base 5 defense. You only need 400hp to match an eviolite chansey (without even needing an item) and 900 is bulkier than a fur coat chansey making it more than enough to run standard fur coat chansey sets better.
 
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