CAP 10 CAP 10 - Concept Assessment

[Akusu]

I think you misread what I said, Naxte. What I mean is that if CAP10 turns into a force of its own and causes other teams to try and PREPARE AGAINST IT--i.e., just like we make sure to have a Salamence check or a Tyranitar check, if opponents start having to make CAP10 checks--then we have failed to create a utility counter and have instead made a utility attacker.

Agreed. If it becomes a sweeper in it's own right we failed. That's a limit I think Multitype has to offer. It's also a reason why I don't want to see it turn into a wall, but I think giving it another ability to help it out in defensive mode would be helpful.

I didn't really realize that the game's programming would come into this. I've seen some fairly interesting points, but assuming Mario is correct and the pokemon always have two types anyways, then we don't really have a problem. Also, I'm assuming Multitype on other pokemon fails for the same reason castform's ability fails on other pokemon... no forms (or recolours) to change into. Kecleon doesn't actually change colour, ironically, so I'm assuming color change works if you skill swap it to something else. I would test that but who carries skill swap XD.

I think the sense so far has been that it would have to be a normal pokemon. I don't think so personally. It would be potentially much more useful to at least have a different base type, but I would prefer not to give it a secondary type in this case. Especially not steel, because that really would just make it something else dragons can destroy, and slant things too far in the direction of using specific plates. I don't want something that can be obviously standardized.

Almost any type can be given the flavour needed to use it, especially since we're talking about elemental types that can be shaped however we see fit.

 

[Naxte]

I think you misread what I said, Naxte. What I mean is that if CAP10 turns into a force of its own and causes other teams to try and PREPARE AGAINST IT--i.e., just like we make sure to have a Salamence check or a Tyranitar check, if opponents start having to make CAP10 checks--then we have failed to create a utility counter and have instead made a utility attacker. The concept is not what fails in that case; the creation fails to realize, or match, the concept. And I was just saying that using Multitype does not mean that CAP10 will automatically turn into an offensive force.

Oh, I get what you're saying now... "We can't exactly make it an offensive threat, since it's point is to be a counter, and not a sweeper or anything akin to that", right? However, I'll just respond with what I said when a similar train of thought was going on during Kitsunoh: that may be true, however, it has to have some way of threatening the opponent. It simply sitting there, just being a fortress isn't going to get anything done--just look at Cresselia to attest to that fact. It needs some way to threaten the opponent to get its job done, or else it will just be ignored or used as set-up bait or whatever.

Not to mention that the concept is "Utility Counter", not "Utility Fortress", "Utility Wall", etc, which seems to be the problem--you're arguing as if the concept is the latter, when it's the former. Counter in of itself does not imply that a Pokemon cannot be an offensive threat and shouldn't be something that other Pokemon shouldn't be worried about preparing for. Of course, it shouldn't be a full-out sweeper with complete focus on the offenses, but nothing about being a "Counter" writes out being an offensive threat to other Pokemon, nor implies that it should be something that they don't have to be prepared for. After all, counter just means a Pokemon that puts a stop to another. Most Pokemon can be considered counters to other certain other Pokemon, including the offensive powerhouses like Gyarados and Metagross. So, I'm not sure what exactly the problem is.

If the concept was to just make the Pokemon the Ultimate Wall or something like that, then you might have a point here, but since it's just meant to be a Utility Counter, I don't at all see what the problem with it being an offensive threat is, if that helps it to get the job of being a Counter done, since it's in no way contradictory to the idea of being a counter, like you seem to be implying it is. The important thing is that it puts a stop to and can handle the Pokemon that it's meant to, i.e. being a counter to them. If being a strong offensive to them accomplishes that, then I don't see the problem, as it doesn't go against the idea of a counter, which can become especially clear if you examine just what some of the things we use the terms "counter" and "check" to refer to in our metagame are.

 

[SJCrew]

then I think we can safely call that 'overcentralization' which we all know means Uber.

You were doing fine until you said this. Overcentralization isn't an Uber characteristic and some of the OUs we have now require solid counters in order to get past them. That doesn't mean they overpower the tier, it just means that there are viable ways to stop them and they get to punish teams that aren't ready for it.

In CAP's case, we're not looking to reduce its offensive merit in an attempt to keep it from becoming overcentralized, but because it doesn't realize the true purpose and intended nature of the concept. It's almost disheartening to see how so many people in this thread fail to realize that.

 

[Akusu]

In CAP's case, we're not looking to reduce its offensive merit in an attempt to keep it from becoming overcentralized, but because it doesn't realize the true purpose and intended nature of the concept. It's almost disheartening to see how so many people in this thread fail to realize that.

I'm sorry, but I'm gonna have to take offense to that statement.

Please try to remember that we are simply pointing the project in a general direction, we are not trying to decide anything right now. We have several weeks of polls ahead of us where EVERYTHING about this pokemon will be dissected, discussed, voted, and decided. The Concept is a very basic guide for the creation process. It is hard to provide solid concept descriptions without basically designing the entire pokemon right off the bat. Submissions should be written and chosen very carefully, to avoid these problems.

Intended or not, the concept is a guideline and it's ultimate direction is being figured out right here in this thread. There is no right way to go about this, even if once we determine the way we want to go. Attempting to constrict the conversation to your ideal is not productive imho.

 

[Zcythe]

Because the multi type idea isnt working so well, im going to restate the idea of a pokemon with Wonder Guard and a series of moves that would allow it to change it's type.

This would allow it to switch in on a moove thats not super effective against it and use its high speed to attack first and use the type changing move to change its type into one that could work with wonder guard to counter a specific pokemon.

It would still be able to preform averagely when against a pokemon its not set up to counter by just out speeding them and getting off a dying blow. To offset wonder guard, it could have poor base stats with the exeption of speed.

Another thing to note is that this idea may end up acting like a Utility-Wall instead of Utility counter. It may have to have a way to prevent healing/status, maybe Taunt? Although having taunt would eliminate a move-slot (Which would only give two move-slots when counting the Type-Changing move) making it more of a stall pokemon counter, while it could not have taunt and be geared toward countering offencive pokemon.

 

[Chomper The Sharptooth]

One thing I've just thought about when reading about multitype is the inability to hold items. At first this didn't bother me, but what about the pokemon we want to counter that aren't the offensive powerhouses with a 4x weakness? If I switch into blissey I may want a lum berry for whatever status, I could get around this by being normal typed and holding a berry and do just fine. Now what if I wanted it to be a breloom counter (assuming a spore puncher set)? If I'm normal and have a lum berry I could shake off spore and retaliate with a flying attack. What if he subs up or focus punches as I switch in? Either way I can't phaze him, and would have to take a super effective Focus Punch.

Now I could alternatively hold a toxic plate or a sky plate to resist fighting and grass, his two attacks. But now I'm at risk of being slept, and while I could rely on sleep talk it isn't completely reliable and could give him a free turn of subbing.

Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way, as I do like switching the types to be a more appropriate counter and I am fine with monotype. I just feel the lack of items really restricts CAP10's potential.

 

[Naxte]

Ugh, starting to feel like I'm threadhogging now, but...

Also, if CAP 10 is so amazing that it causes other people to be prepared to counter a counter, then I think we can safely call that 'overcentralization' which we all know means Uber.

No. Having to be prepared for something does not make something Uber. In that case, all Pokemon would be banned. After all, if you're not prepared for it, DDDos can sweep your team. So can DDMence. And SD Lucario. And CM Latias. And so forth. However, clearly we can't be doing that. And thus the way things are: All you having to prepare for a Pokemon means, is that the Pokemon is a strong offensive threat. That's it. It doesn't mean that it's inherently actually broken or anything--just that it's strong and as a result something you need to be ready to face.

Also, as SJCrew pointed out, overcentralization is in no way an Uber characteristic, If that were the case, we would have banned stuff like SD Scizor (or rather, the things that causes its use and thus the overcentralization, like Salamance) a long time ago. What matters are the three characteristics, none of which involve "overcentralization".

Because the multi type idea isnt working so well, im going to restate the idea of a pokemon with Wonder Guard and a series of moves that would allow it to change it's type.

This would allow it to switch in on a moove thats not super effective against it and use its high speed to attack first and use the type changing move to change its type into one that could work with wonder guard to counter a specific pokemon.

It would still be able to preform averagely when against a pokemon its not set up to counter by just out speeding them and getting off a dying blow. To offset wonder guard, it could have poor base stats with the exeption of speed.

Really doubting the viability of this. First off, you have to dedicate one of your moveslots to these moves, limiting your offensive options and such in the other moveslots. Then you have to actually get a chance to use it, which won't always be easy.

Then there's the fact that such moves already exist--namely, Conversion and Conversion2. However, the Porygon line never uses them, even the bulky Porygon2. Why? Namely the issues I mentioned above--they have to give up a moveslot to them, and then have to find a same chance to actually use them. Then, there's just generally how even Conversion2 just really isn't that good of a move, since it requires the user to get hit.

I suppose it would be possible to make a better variant, but it will still have those same major issues. I mean, we could make a move that doesn't require the user to be hit and lets you choose the type or whatever. However, once the user sees CAP10, they'll probably switch to something else, meaning you need to wait and see what that Pokemon is before you can do anything else in regards to that. Then there's also the same problem that Color Change has: the fact that the opponent can switch between attacks of multiple types to get around that strategy. Not to mention the aforementioned problems of finding a slot for the move and the time to use it still exist. So all around, I don't think such a thing would end up working that well in practice.

Edit:

One thing I've just thought about when reading about multitype is the inability to hold items. At first this didn't bother me, but what about the pokemon we want to counter that aren't the offensive powerhouses with a 4x weakness? If I switch into blissey I may want a lum berry for whatever status, I could get around this by being normal typed and holding a berry and do just fine. Now what if I wanted it to be a breloom counter (assuming a spore puncher set)? If I'm normal and have a lum berry I could shake off spore and retaliate with a flying attack. What if he subs up or focus punches as I switch in? Either way I can't phaze him, and would have to take a super effective Focus Punch.

Now I could alternatively hold a toxic plate or a sky plate to resist fighting and grass, his two attacks. But now I'm at risk of being slept, and while I could rely on sleep talk it isn't completely reliable and could give him a free turn of subbing.

Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way, as I do like switching the types to be a more appropriate counter and I am fine with monotype. I just feel the lack of items really restricts CAP10's potential.

Pretty much, it's as I've been saying--even Multitype has its flaws, and these are what prevent it from simply being too much. Due to that, even with it, CAP10 probably won't be able to handle everything and anything. We might be able to come closer with something like say some sort of custom ability, but we probably won't be able to perfectly fulfill such a broad concept no matter what. However, of what we already have, Multitype comes pretty close to doing the job, much closer than some of the other options at least, and so I'm fine with it.

However, I wouldn't at all be surprised if somebody can indeed come up with something that works better than Multitype, or even if one of the ideas that has already been brought up in this thread does end up being a better option. For me personally, I'm fine with Multitype's limitations and think it's one of the all-around best ways of doing things. But it definitely does have its own problems though, yes, and so if something does catch my eye between now and the time I'll vote, I'll go for that. Until that time though, I'm personally sticking with Multitype, as I'm sure we can find a way to make it work for this thing.

 

[Akusu]

Breloom is a bit of a special case to me because of the sleep clause, but if you wanted a breloom counter, use it's base type (which will hopefully not be normal) switch into the spore with a lum berry and hit back with Aerial Ace or something similar.

One thing I like about Multitype is that in order to abuse a hold item, you have to use the base type with the other ability(if we give it one). If the base type isn't weak to fighting or grass you could easily threaten breloom even though you might not force a switch until after you destroy the substitute.

A variant that would counter breloom without a lum/chesto berry in my mind would be a defense-natured and evd multitype holding spooky plate and knowing rest, sleep talk, air slash and psychic(or wing attack and zen headbutt). Comes in and takes the spore.... oh well. Sleep talk to try to take it out knowing it can't use focus punch to damage you. It's not as strong a counter as this concept implies, but it would likely be able to duke it out and come out a winner. If it could be 100% or even 80% likely that would be true, most people will switch. Mission accomplished.

One of the more exciting(but potentially dangerous) things about Multitype is that we're never gonna figure out all the ways that it can get abused to create counters. What we can do though is make sure that it's not overpotent without customization and that customizing only lets it really hurt specific pokemon at a time which I believe Multitype would do.

 

[Zcythe]

Really doubting the viability of this. First off, you have to dedicate one of your moveslots to these moves, limiting your offensive options and such in the other moveslots. Then you have to actually get a chance to use it, which won't always be easy.

Then there's the fact that such moves already exist--namely, Conversion and Conversion2. However, the Porygon line never uses them, even the bulky Porygon2. Why? Namely the issues I mentioned above--they have to give up a moveslot to them, and then have to find a same chance to actually use them. Then, there's just generally how even Conversion2 just really isn't that good of a move, since it requires the user to get hit.

I suppose it would be possible to make a better variant, but it will still have those same major issues. I mean, we could make a move that doesn't require the user to be hit and lets you choose the type or whatever. However, once the user sees CAP10, they'll probably switch to something else, meaning you need to wait and see what that Pokemon is before you can do anything else in regards to that. Then there's also the same problem that Color Change has: the fact that the opponent can switch between attacks of multiple types to get around that strategy. Not to mention the aforementioned problems of finding a slot for the move and the time to use it still exist. So all around, I don't think such a thing would end up working that well in practice.

I agree with the idea of making a new move for type conversion but not exactly what you were describing. What I was saying was a series of moves that allow for type changing (One changes type to grass, one to flying, ect..). This way you choose the type you change into before hand when selecting your moves. Also, this prevents changing into obvoiusly over powered types, normal and electric for example by just not making a Conversion for those types.

When you note that using multiple attacks would screw this pokemon over you are forgeting that every single combination of moves in the game cannot hold enough types of attacks to be super effective against every single type, their is at least one type it has no super effectives moves against it when facing any givin set you are attempting to counter. For example, DD Salamence would be walled by a ghost w/Wonder Gaurd, Scizor is beaten by bug, and Curselax would beaten by Flying, ect... Therefor, if you wanted CAP10 to beat Salamence, you would make your pokemon know the Conversion that changed his type to ghost and he would be able to easily counter him.

You do make a good point when you mentioned that this pokemon would cause a great deal of switch in's. The thing is, whether using the Wonder Guard + Improved Conversion version of CAP10 or not, CAP10 will cause a great amount switch-in's either way as that is what any Utility Counter would do.

All in all, switching isnt such a bad thing, if you have some entry hazards up you can take advantage of the fear factor that comes with CAP10.

I also really dont think multitype is such a good idea. It just seems outclassed by a standard pokemon, you could use the Multitype varraint of CAP10 to counter Scizor, or of course could simply use Scizor who can be the hard counter for Salamence, be capable at doing things other than countering Salamence, and hold an Item.

 

[holitrix]

Will this "utility counter" be able to counter itself?

 

[Anachronism]

I think that this pokemon will end up being Bronzong-like, although with a slightly more offensive bias. It has sturdy, balanced defenses, a moderately variable weakness set, and a good enough movepool to hit anything super effective. I don't think anyone is going to argue that Bronzong is Uber, so why would we be worried about CAP 10? This poke is meant to counter, not pose as a credible threat itself. What if we made an ability that was like expert belt? Super-effective hits do double damage or something. This would allow us to give him middling offensive stats, making him a liability against anything that he isn't specifically designed to counter. This does mean that we give him a neutral or near-neutral typing though, which is rather restrictive. Also, unless the second ability also gave him more power then he would end up pretty weak...

 

[Seizen]

The only proper trouble with CAP 10 is that originally, we're looking at it being a "soft counter". But as players, we cannot decide what that statement actually means. Does it mean Status Effects + a move which can OHKO the opponent (such as Ice Beam against DDSalamence)? Or something else?

Multityping is interesting, but it leaves something to be desired as an ability. It's not really helping CAP 10 towards it's goal, but more allowing us a "perfect type" to use to switch into Pkmn X. Possibly also helping STAB moves be achieved, but in general... I'm not sure how it plays out.
If anyone is an excellent Arceus player, they can give an opinion, but it doesn't seem plausible to be used as a way to counter opponents, seeing as it doesn't guarantee anything other than we determine the typing by not determining the typing.

That said, truly defensive abilities are lacking in the game: though we could give it two abilities. If so, then Intimidate could be one of those two, as it punishes the low-PP moves, while the other could be something else. Shed Skin perhaps?

Although - I must say if you truly want a Attack-based stat, Adaptability. If STAB moves do 2x damage, we can then take away some Atk and SpAtk and still have an effective Pkmn, while making him oriented towards Def and SpDef, with some HP as well.

 

[Shock Trooper]

• To what extent should this Pokemon be addressing threats?
  

I'd say that this CAP should be able to force it out by threat of attacks, status, or ability to wipe it out. In the current OU metagame, there are few Pokemon that have true "counters" anymore, most Pokemon have checks. I feel that attempting to ultimately "counter" each Pokemon would be nearly impossible, so it would be a better idea to be able to check each Pokemon instead in the given circumstances.

• Should this Pokemon be addressing threats offensively or defensively?
  

I feel that the Pokemon should be addressing threats both with the defensive capability to stand up to said Pokemon, but also have enough power to threaten it. A great example of a Pokemon that addresses a threat both offensively and defensively is Rotom-H to Dragon Dance Gyarados, since it can take any attack it has besides Bite or Payback and threaten with a powerful Thunderbolt. Something like this that could answer every threat (but not all at once) would truly fulfill the concept of "Utility Counter"

• What kind of stats will facilitate a Pokemon that can be tailored to counter any threat? Definitely balanced. A solid all around stat spread will allow the Pokemon to respond to threats.

• Just how limited should the Pokemon be in regard to dealing with threats that it isn’t specifically designed to counter? You are using the CAP Pokemon to answer specific threats to your team in a certain way, which means the rest of your team can deal with threats that the CAP isn't specifically design to counter. Outside of possibly status or Screen support, I feel the CAP shouldn't have the capability to deal with threats that it isn't tailored to respond to by the user.

I feel that ways to accomplish this should be used without the use of Multitype, which will ultimately turn CAP10 into a Pokemon similar to Arceus, which would definitely be overpowering in the standard metagame. I was thinking about an ability similar to Conversion2, which changes a Pokemon's type based off of the previous move that the opponent used, usually a resist or immunity. This allows you to counter attacks of common sweepers and use the advantage to force them out with a threatening attack. However, this means that a wide movepool would need to be required. However, what could be done is taking the Coverage App by X-Act and using it to figure out the movesets that would provide the best coverage against the standard metagame in general, and go from there to determine CAP10's movepool.

 

[Aura Guardian]

To what extent: Dead weight is what no one wants on their team. It needs to be able to hold its own against a weakened threat, and to force its targets to switch or be KOed. Prediction should be allowed for, of course (like switching Lucario out of a Gliscor's Earthquake). Thus, it should not be all-powerful vs its targets, but should be able to, barring an extremely unlikely set, counter it quite neatly.

How it should address threats: It needs bulk to counter its targets, and it needs decent defenses. If it is too defense-heavy or offense-heavy, though, then it will be either a wall for anything, or likely broken, respectively. As such, it should be what once was called an "annoyer," or a statuser. Burn, Paralyze, Poison, and Sleep will punish whatever it needs to, and let it function decently in other circumstances. As such, a bulky statuser with moderate-low attacking (but still a capable attacker against what it targets) should do well.

What kind of stats: It needs bulk and defenses, but not too much. If it is too offense-oriented, then all we've done is create a sweeper. Speed is less-than-relevant right now, but it should not be as slow as Bronzong or as fast as Salamence, I think. Moderate stats all around leaning decently toward defensive seems the best.

How limited should it be against its non-targets? If the target is statused, then it should be able to win with decent odds. Otherwise, it should require its target to be weakened or predicted and weakened. Defensive threats should be beaten reasonably often by it, but sweepers should have a noticable, but not great edge against the Utility Counter.

 

[jayykay]

I was thinking, if we were to counter one pokemon, having an immunity to the main offensive option of that pokemon would be a good way to go. From what others have said, multi-typing has some problems within itself, so how about an ability which gives an immunity to whatever plate CAP10 is holding? This would make great counter for all the dragon pokes and commonly used moves such as ice beam, tbolt, etc.

 

[Zcythe]

On the topic of the Wonder Guard + Improved Conversion varient of CAP10, a reletivly easy way to make Imp Conversion is to do it base off of IV's. Much like Hidden Power, the type that the move would change CAP10 into could be determind by IV's, that would be an easy way to condense the move.

The only exception I can think of is a type change into either Normal or Electric, both of which have only one weakness and would make CAP10 able to single handedly sweep whole teams.

As of now, I really think this is the only option so far that has the ability to counter every single pokemon in the game, just not at the same time. Off the top of my head, the only pokemon that CAP10 w/Wonder Guard+Imp Conversion is unable to counter is DD Gyarados w/Roar and CM Latias w/Roar. Although it would be able to counter both of those if it had access to Ingrain.

 

[Anachronism]

I have a feeling this concept is going to be difficult. We have no idea where we are taking it yet but we need to have a typing figured out relatively soon. The ONLY things that make sense right now out of all of the stuff I have heard is:

An ability like multitype. This clearly gives it versatility but forces it to only be able to counter specific threats.

Multiple weakness/resistance abilities like thick fat, levitate, heatproof, etc. This seems rather limited though.

A new ability that increases the damage done by super effective hits. This makes a lot of sense because we can give it a good movepool and bad offensive stats, reducing the possibility of making a potent sweeper.

I recognize that my posts haven't really answered the OP questions directly, but I think that it is fairly clear what I want.

I want something that can competently hard counter what it wants to, and has solid defenses and enough offense to guarantee kills on the things it counters. Regarding limitations, I think that if we decide that it should HARD counter things, then we severely limit it against the other threats. If we decide for SOFT countering, then I think that the limitation should be less severe. I am not sure exactly how many pokes I want this to be able to counter at once though. I think somewhere between 5-15 is good, maybe even as high as 20.

 

[fearow23]

Breloom is a bit of a special case to me because of the sleep clause, but if you wanted a breloom counter, use it's base type (which will hopefully not be normal) switch into the spore with a lum berry and hit back with Aerial Ace or something similar.

One thing I like about Multitype is that in order to abuse a hold item, you have to use the base type with the other ability(if we give it one). If the base type isn't weak to fighting or grass you could easily threaten breloom even though you might not force a switch until after you destroy the substitute.

A variant that would counter breloom without a lum/chesto berry in my mind would be a defense-natured and evd multitype holding spooky plate and knowing rest, sleep talk, air slash and psychic(or wing attack and zen headbutt). Comes in and takes the spore.... oh well. Sleep talk to try to take it out knowing it can't use focus punch to damage you. It's not as strong a counter as this concept implies, but it would likely be able to duke it out and come out a winner. If it could be 100% or even 80% likely that would be true, most people will switch. Mission accomplished.

One of the more exciting(but potentially dangerous) things about Multitype is that we're never gonna figure out all the ways that it can get abused to create counters. What we can do though is make sure that it's not overpotent without customization and that customizing only lets it really hurt specific pokemon at a time which I believe Multitype would do.

I think Akusu's example fully explains how Multitype works well with the concept of Utility Counter and yet doesn't make the Pokemon broken. Being the perfect Breloom counter would make it a horrible Metagross counter because of the type and choice of moves used. I think the idea behind Utility Counter is to help alleviate counters that would otherwise burden your team. I am quite excited to see what the wonderful people at Smogon will come up with :)

 

[Ace Emerald]

[*]To what extent should this Pokemon be addressing threats? Should it be able to wall everything they use, or should it just be able to take hits well enough to be able to force them out with an attack or status?

I think this set revolves more around crippling or destroying a set rather then walling them. It obviously will need a huge movepool with such status move as will o wisp and thunder wave, and a move with 30% para chance wouldn't be bad for grounds. A useable offensive movepool must be available.

[*]Should this Pokemon be addressing threats offensively or defensively? Could this also be customized per threat by the user?

Slightly biased to defense, but balanced (like so many before me have said) like Celebi and Jirachi. Offense cannot be abandoned, as some peoples needs for this set will require offense. This is supposed to be the definition of versatile, so useable offense must be present.

[*]What kind of stats will facilitate a Pokemon that can be tailored to counter any threat? Should it be a primarily defensive Pokemon, offensive or balanced between the two?

See above.

[*]Just how limited should the Pokemon be in regard to dealing with threats that it isn’t specifically designed to counter? If the opponent doesn’t carry the threat that a particular CAP10 was customized to counter, will it become dead weight during that battle?.

I don't think this being will be deadweight if it is useable for one fight. A lot of teams have 5 pokes that have excellent synergy, but still have one or two weaknesses that CAP10 could address. It's not wasted space on a team if the team just cannot deal with a certain set.

An idea for ability: maybe arena trap? It would help make sure that the target is crippled and doesn't switch.

 

[beej]

This has been discussed enough. Utility Counter is a pretty difficult concept to come up with ideas for, so all-in-all, I'm satisfied with how this discussion went. For the record, I really dislike the idea of us deciding that this concept "needs" anything right off the bat, because I feel that discredits our ability to think creatively as a community, which is a large part of this project. So I really hope that we can exert a huge amount of creative thinking as we move on to the Main Typing Discussion thread, which will be posted momentarily.