CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 5b - Ability Poll

[Banryu]

As mentioned in the previous thread, my Support is for Magic Guard.

CAP10 does not want to have it's rear handed to it by hazards, only to have it's target switch out next turn, and acomplish nothing. Magic Guard lowers this.

Magic Guard will also allow the use of Life Orb, which won't be breaking new ground with offensive stats hardly higher than Clefable, but will alow CAP10 to hit hard enough to actually hart stuff.

Magic Guard is also a great ability to counter pokemon such as Blissey, and other status users, particually toxic/burn.

The other abilities are good choices, but I feel Magic Guard is a must for one of the two abilities, with Intimidate or Solid Rock/Filter as the second [What does Filter do, or is it identical to Solid Rock?]

Ideally, I'd want Magic Guard or Trace to win this one, and one of the other two to win the other poll.

Magic Guard isn't going to win this poll. =0 A shame, it was my second pick as well. =\ But, I'd predict that if one of the current abilities wins, then Magic Guard will be the prime candidate in the next poll...

Because Intimidate is pretty much redundant with Trace and Filter. =\
Any of the current three abilities would be a good partner for Magic Guard, whereas Trace only pairs well with Filter or MG, Filter only pairs well with Trace or MG, and Intimidate... was talked about already. Magic Guard is the only ability present that pairs well with all three other abilities. For that reason, it'll likely be a big runner in the second poll, if not the winner.

I'm not intending to be polljumping, just speculating. Because the way that the abilities in the poll (or other abilities we might want on CAP-10) pair with each other is something that should be given thought when casting a vote.

 

[ShravanP]

For those saying Intimidate is not that useful, here are some calculations on a 252/252 +Def spread:

[U]Pokemon | Move | Damage w/o Intimidate | Damage w/ Intimidate | Do we outspeed it?:[/U]
[B]Adamant +0 LO Lucario | Close Combat | 43.3% - 51% | 28.7% - 34% | [COLOR="Red"]NO[/COLOR][/B]
Adamant +0 LO Lucario | Extremespeed | 19.2% - 22.7% | 13% - 15.4% | [COLOR="red"]NO[/COLOR]
Adamant +2 LO Lucario | Extremespeed | 38.1% - 45.1% | 28.9% - 34% | [COLOR="red"]NO[/COLOR]
Adamant +0 CB Tyranitar | Stone Edge | 47.6% - 56.3% | 31.6% - 37.5% | [COLOR="Lime"]YES[/COLOR]
[B]Adamant +0 CB Tyranitar | Earthquake | 63.6% - 73.1% | 42.3% - 50.2% | [COLOR="lime"]YES[/COLOR][/B]
[B]Jolly +0 CS Tyranitar | Earthquake | 38.7% - 45.8% | 26.1% - 30.8% | [COLOR="red"]NO[/COLOR][/B]
Jolly +0 LO DDTar | Earthquake | 50.2% - 59.3% | 33.6% - 39.9% | [COLOR="lime"]YES[/COLOR]
[B]Jolly +1 LO DDTar | Earthquake | 75.1% - 88.5% | 50.2% - 59.3% | [COLOR="red"]NO[/COLOR] (possible OHKO after SR w/o Intimidate)[/B]
Adamant +0 LO DDTar | Earthquake | 55.3% - 65.2% | 36.8% - 43.5% | [COLOR="lime"]YES[/COLOR]
[B]Adamant +1 LO DDTar | Earthquake | 82.6% - 97.6% | 55.3% - 65.2% | [COLOR="red"]NO[/COLOR] (high chance of OHKO after SR w/o Intimidate)[/B]
Naive +0 LO NPApe / Special MixApe | Close Combat | 32% - 37.9% | 21.3% - 25.1% | [COLOR="red"]NO[/COLOR] (we have grass knot to fear, so can't really call this one a cakewalk)
[I]Naive +0 LO Physical MixApe | Close Combat | 38.1% - 45.1% | 25.1% - 29.8% | [COLOR="red"]NO[/COLOR][/I]
[I]Jolly +0 Lead Aerodactyl | Earthquake | 32.8% - 38.7% | 22.1% - 26.1% | [COLOR="red"]NO[/COLOR][/I]
[B]Jolly +0 CB Aerodactyl | Earthquake | 49% - 57.7% | 32.8% - 38.7% | [COLOR="red"]NO[/COLOR][/B]
[B]Adamant +0 RestTalk Machamp | Dynamicpunch | 31.4% - 37% | 20.8% - 24.5% | [COLOR="lime"]YES[/COLOR][/B]
Adamant +0 AntiLead Machamp | Dynamicpunch | 29.2% - 34.6% | 19.6% - 23.1% | [COLOR="lime"]YES[/COLOR]
[B]Jolly +0 LO Mamoswine | Earthquake | 73.9% - 87.7% | 49% - 58.1% | [COLOR="red"]NO[/COLOR]
Adamant +0 LO Mamoswine | Earthquake | 81% - 96% | 53.4% - 63.2%| [COLOR="red"]NO[/COLOR]
Jolly +0 CB Mamoswine | Earthquake | 85.4% - 100.8% | 56.9% - 66.8% | [COLOR="red"]NO[/COLOR]
Adamant +0 CB Mamoswine | Earthquake | 93.7% - 110.3% | 62.1% - 73.5% | [COLOR="red"]NO[/COLOR][/B]
Careful +0 Curselax | Earthquake | 26.9% - 32% | 18.2% - 21.7% | [COLOR="lime"]YES[/COLOR]
Careful +1 Curselax | Earthquake | 40.3% - 47.8% | 26.9% - 32% | [COLOR="lime"]YES[/COLOR]
[B]Adamant +0 CB Snorlax | Earthquake | 55.3% - 65.2% | 36.8% - 43.5% | [COLOR="lime"]YES[/COLOR][/B]
[B]Relaxed +0 Mixpert | Earthquake | 40.7% - 48.6% | 27.3% - 32.4% | [COLOR="lime"]YES[/COLOR][/B]
Adamant +0 CB Scizor | U-Turn | 32.8% - 38.7% | 21.5% - 25.7% | [COLOR="lime"]YES[/COLOR]

All of the above damage calculations are done on Pokemon who are not affected by Trace. The ones in bold are especially troublesome, whereas the ones in italics are easily walled using Intimidate.

Take a close look at the list. How do we propose to handle the above threats without Intimidate? Remember that with 252/252+ defenses, we DO NOT OUTSPEED many of those threats despite having such a high base speed. I think most people are forgetting this fact. If we do not outspeed a threat, then we WILL take a hit even AFTER the switch (unless we have priority moves). On top of this, we do not have the kind of offenses available to us to reliably OHKO these threats back.

Countering is not just about surviving a hit or avoiding the OHKO. Countering is about being able to switch in safely and forcing out the pokemon and being able to do it more than just once in a fight. How we force out the opponent depends on the typing, moves, abilities, and stats available to us. We have the typing and already know that the attacking stats are not spectacular, while the abilities in question are all defensive. That sets movepool apart as the only thing that determines whether we can call ourselves a counter to a pokemon and not just a two-hit meat shield. If a Pokemon has nothing to fear from you, then it does not matter that you only take 25% from its hit. It will just keep hitting you or stat-upping.

That said, even though Intimidate allows us to take low damage from some physical threats, we will still not be able to counter them without the right moves. We are limited to 4 moves, which means that we need to pick the right moves to counter each threat. I dare anyone to theorymon a set that can counter SD Luke, DD Tar, Mixpert, NPApe, AND Curselax all at once.

Just because we can reduce the damage does not mean we automatically counter them. But if we don't AT THE LEAST reduce the damage, then we have no hopes of countering them! I get the feeling that many of those who are voting for Trace are not fully thinking this part through. This is why I feel Intimidate is a far more necessary choice over Trace.

 

[Paradox]

To bad no one seems to have read my post. I'm going to put up my reasoning against Trace again without hiding it, as it's gone unnoticed. These are all of the decent abilities that Trace picks up, and my thoughts on how useful they actually are.

Gyarados/Salamence - Intimidate:
This isn't really needed, as the spread will survive an unboosted EQ, and both pokemon can be OHKOd by Thunderbolt and Ice Beam respectively. Choice scarf would be necessary to avoid been outsped and hit by a boosted EQ, but thats the idea behind a utility counter. With intimidate, you can just run a cookie cutter set that counters these two plus a bunch of other pokemon.

Heatran - Flash Fire
As has been said before, Fire Blast isn't killing the CaP anyways, so Heatran's main threat will be Earth Power, Toxic, or Roar. I also don't like how the ability makes CaP 10 completely immune to Fire-Blast locked Heatrans - When it counters pokemon, it should lose a chunk of health in doing so, that way it can't counter more pokemon.

Flygon - Levitate
I'm not sure how much Flygon's Choiced and Scarfed Earthquakes do respectively, but you probably won't be switching into a Flygon right off the bat anyways, as there's a pretty good chance that it will just U-Turn, weakening and revealing you're utility counter. Levitate doesn't do much against other users of it (Gengar, Rotom-A, etc), and only helps CaP with spikes and switch-ins that would have EQ, making it pretty counter-concept.

Electivire - Motor Drive
Really? Well I guess an expert belt EQ could hit pretty hard, but I'm sure with proper adjustments CaP 10 would have no problem beating it. Extra speed wouldn't help much anyways, just the electric immunity.

Natural Cure - (Blissey/Roserade/Starmie/Celebi)
This isn't that helpful for Starmie, and it'd be useless to switch out of Roserade-Induced Sleep (then roserade could just sleep something else). It's not great against Blissey, as you'd have to keep switching out if you were threatened by toxic, and then you'd just be racking up entry hazard damage. It has some merit agains Thunder Waves from celebi or blissey, but you still have to switch out to make use of it, and then you're not countering the pokemon at all.

Volt/Water Absorb - Jolt/Vaporeon
I don't think that these pokemon will be that difficult to beat anyways. Vaporeons main threat is Roar or just being allowed to continue to support with wish (taunt could help here). Jolteon could hit pretty hard (I'm not sure how hard) with a specs thunderbolt, but i still don't think it'd be to tough to counter.

Those are pretty much all of the useful abilities to trace.
Gliscor's Sand Veil could give you a lucky miss on an EQ, Serene Grace could make Stab Thunderbolts/Waterfalls even more annoying, etc. But they aren't reliable or related to the concept. Speed Boost would just help sweep.

@ShravanP, every single dangerous hit you showed was an EQ (Except Lucario's CC, which still isn't enough to take it down with an Extremespeed), which just seems like more support for Filter/Solid Rock. Filter would protect against those EQs while not neutering attacks like Machamp's Dynamic Punches and and Scizor's U-Turn (going off of your calcs, which I assume are correct).

 

[pokefan13]

I voted for Trace, because its good (in my opinion) for a utility counter to have multiple options for the ability.

 

[Dominion]

don't worry paradox, just post a lot, I've found out that having a high post count actually counts for something here.

Anyway, Many other abilities become much more useful. Your only considering the pokemon they trace from. Tracing Levitate off of Flygon who U-turns will deter anything with EQ being sent out.

The only ability that is next to useless after the trace is made is intimidate, which, only helps against the pokemon your trace.

Stealing Vaporeon's Water Absorb as it surfs is great fun, as well as Electivire's.

Trace allows some flexibility in an uncanny way. Switching into Flygon to steal Levitate for the next incoming threat is a very powerful tool. Or perhaps stealing natural cure from blissey, who finds out your physically bias, now you've made yourself immune to will-o-wisp which may be what your enemy was planning to do if it was caught off guard with blissey.

Many abilities are useful to this CAP well after it's intended target (and trace victim) are gone.

 

[ShravanP]

@ShravanP, every single dangerous hit you showed was an EQ (Except Lucario's CC, which still isn't enough to take it down with an Extremespeed), which just seems like more support for Filter/Solid Rock. Filter would protect against those EQs while not neutering attacks like Machamp's Dynamic Punches and and Scizor's U-Turn (going off of your calcs, which I assume are correct).

Hmm, I did a few calcs using Filter instead of Intimidate, and while it does help, it's reduction is not as much as Intimidate. This does seem to make sense, as going from +1 to +0 or +0 to -1 both cut Atk by 1/3, whereas Filter is a flat 1/4 reduction. For example, an Adamant +0 LO DDtar does 41.5% - 48.8% with EQ when using Filter, whereas Intimidate cuts it to 36.8% - 43.5%. Now, of course, this is all considering we max defenses. Many times, like when facing Lucario, we will want to up the speed in order to outspeed it first before pumping defense and HP. In that case, the amount of damage we take goes even higher.

The main issue I see with Filter is that it doesn't help against very powerful Neutral hits, which include Lucario's or Infernape's CC, Scizor's U-Turn, Salamence's Outrage, T-Tar's Stone Edge (yes that also does a number), anything from a boosted Curselax (unless we have a way to kill its stat-ups), and Kingdra's Outrage.

As I stated in my earlier post, countering is not just about surviving one or two hits. It's about making the opponent uncomfortable and forcing them out reliably and regularly, not just once. That's why when anyone says, "but oh, Lucario's CC + Extremespeed does not KO us," it's important to ask ourselves if one turn is enough for us to destroy Lucario.

Because if we don't, then here's what we risk: We switch in, take SR damage and a CC, leaving us at somewhere around 40 - 45% health. Next turn, Lucario can either CC again or ES, but if we cannot kill off a -1 Def/SDef lucario in one hit, then we are basically writing our own death sentence. So to call CAP10 a counter, we need to be able to survive any assault reliably and leave ourselves healthy enough to repeat it later in the match.

For this, I think we really DO need something as universal as Intimidate. And although it IS true that we'll neuter such hits as Machamp's Dynamicpunch, we most likely will not have any free moveslots to do anything drastic back to Machamp if we've already specced to beat something else.

 

[Deck Knight]

Let's not also forget that various opponents can be specifically countered by MOVES rather than ability. They might be more esoteric than your average moveset, but Utility Counter should be able to explore these moves.

An excellent theoretical example would be this for Lucario.

CAP10 @ Leftovers
Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SpA)
120 Atk / 252 Def / 136 Spe
~ Power Swap
~ Waterfall
~ Earthquake
~ Recover

This CAP10 always outspeeds Lucario and can always OHKO a -1 Def Lucario with Earthquake. It takes 49.4 - 58.2% damage from Jolly LO Close Combat. If Lucario Swords Dance while it switches in, CAP 10 can Power Swap it's +2 Boost, turning itself into a dangerous threat in its own right while robbing Lucario of it's offensive power. It does the aforementioned 49.4-58.2% damage with CC, takes LO damage, and can't finish CAP10 off with ESpeed (this ignores criticals which Intimidate doesn't help against either) From there it can OHKO Lucario with EQ (Waterfall is a bit short, +2 does 81-95% so it won't guarantee even after LO damage.)

Thus CAP10 needs neither Trace nor Intimidate to counter Lucario completely. All it needs is one esoteric move in Power Swap. This post is merely to show that CAP10 does not necessarily need Intimidate to counter certain dangerous pokemon, and can in fact capitalize on their offensive patterns.

 

[ShravanP]

That above set also relies on the presence of Recover. Otherwise, Luke just switches out, happy to have taken half your HP. But we do not want to go ahead and suggest that we NEED power swap and recover now, do we? :)

 

[Anachronism]

Why are so many people voting for Trace? I recognize it is a cool ability, but that is different than being perfect for CAP 10. Trace lets you counter some pokes a bit better, yes, but the thing is that it doesn't offer user customization. You just get whatever abilities they have: you don't choose what you want to counter unless it is one of the 7ish pokes in OU that Trace is useful for countering. I went for Intimidate because it allows CAP 10 to more effectively counter quite a few physical threats that it may otherwise be unable to. As reachzero showed, CAP 10's typing makes it a good counter to most special attackers already (with or without Trace), so helping it with some of the physical attackers is more beneficial in my opinion. I would like to mention that I guess I wouldn't mind Trace as a secondary ability, but as I primary ability I believe there are better options.

P.S.: I wish some custom abilities got on here :(

 

[Deck Knight]

That above set also relies on the presence of Recover. Otherwise, Luke just switches out, happy to have taken half your HP. But we do not want to go ahead and suggest that we NEED power swap and recover now, do we? :)

Not really. Intimidate also relies on Recovery, otherwise Lucario just switches out happy to have taken a third of your HP each time. Your counter always has the option of switching out after you switch in. The idea CAP10 will not get reliable recovery is questionable, but if it does not, Intimidate is merely just a way to make CAP10 omnipresent. Who needs to be a counter to anything when you don't have to innovate? You just switch in and Intimidate physical attackers easy mode. Intimidate is simply too powerful an ability for the concept, it allows it to counter too much at once. Intimidate basically adds every Fighting type in OU to CAP10's "I hard counter x" list, bar something odd like Specs Lucario.

If the concept was "I counter everything at once" then I'd support Intimidate whole hog. That is not the concept, and Intimidate makes hard countering too great a portion of the metagame too easy.

Regarding your previous examples, there are very few reasons to run 252/252 HP/Defense, it's easily one of the poorest possible EV distributions. CAP 10 can outspeed the vast majority of your list, therefore you never HAVE to take two hits. That was my entire purpose for submitting a stat spread with >100 Base Speed.

That said, even though Intimidate allows us to take low damage from some physical threats, we will still not be able to counter them without the right moves. We are limited to 4 moves, which means that we need to pick the right moves to counter each threat. I dare anyone to theorymon a set that can counter SD Luke, DD Tar, Mixpert, NPApe, AND Curselax all at once.

If there were such a set it would clearly violate our concept.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I fail to see how Intimidate lets you hard counter too much of the metagame simply by being chosen as the ability. If we do not assume reliable recovery on CAP10, it just lets you switch into these threats more often across the course of a game, which doesn't turn CAP10 into a hard counter, rather just gives it more of a team use over the course of the game in checking different threats. It prevents it from being arguably ineffective against a vast majority of the metagame, which to me is a big deal. CAP10 needs to be useful against threats it isn't tech'd to counter.

If the concept were "utility counter with no other use" I'd agree with you and support Trace wholeheartedly. However, that is not the concept. CAP10 needs to be able to check and contribute to a team reliably outside of beating those Pokemon it is tech'd to counter.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

We really should have talked in more detail about how we wanted CAP10 to counter things when the assessment thread was open. I'm starting to forget what and how CAP10 should counter threats. Did we wanted it to hard counter or soft counter threats? What's the difference between hard counter and soft countering anyway? What should it be countering anyway?

I predict that if either Trace or Intimidate make it to become the primary ability for CAP10 it will be the only ability it would have.

CAP10 needs to be able to check and contribute to a team reliably outside of beating those Pokemon it is tech'd to counter.

Wait...I thought we trying to avoid that kind of thing? Wasn't the entire point of "Utility counter" was to be useful for taking out troublesome Pokemon it was built to take out? No semi-sweeper nor semi-wall, just a team's custom built meat shield it's considered dead weight after uses. Kinda of a sad existences if you ask me.

 

[ShravanP]

Who needs to be a counter to anything when you don't have to innovate? You just switch in and Intimidate physical attackers easy mode. Intimidate is simply too powerful an ability for the concept, it allows it to counter too much at once. Intimidate basically adds every Fighting type in OU to CAP10's "I hard counter x" list, bar something odd like Specs Lucario.

Regarding your previous examples, there are very few reasons to run 252/252 HP/Defense, it's easily one of the poorest possible EV distributions. CAP 10 can outspeed the vast majority of your list, therefore you never HAVE to take two hits. That was my entire purpose for submitting a stat spread with >100 Base Speed.

Just because you take reduced damage does not mean you counter something. To counter, you need to threaten it enough to force it out. You're never going to do that to "every fighting type in OU" or to "too much at once" with just 4 moveslots and the same stat spread. If you're not going to threaten the pokemon, it has no incentive to switch out and will continue to just attack.

And those examples were given to prove the point that EVEN WITH max defenses, we still take ample damage from very common threats. With more speed investment, we'd take even more damage on the switch.

If there were such a set it would clearly violate our concept.

Exactly, such a set does not exist, even with Intimidate.

 

[Deck Knight]

Just because you take reduced damage does not mean you counter something. To counter, you need to threaten it enough to force it out. You're never going to do that to "every fighting type in OU" or to "too much at once" with just 4 moveslots and the same stat spread. If you're not going to threaten the pokemon, it has no incentive to switch out and will continue to just attack.

And those examples were given to prove the point that EVEN WITH max defenses, we still take ample damage from very common threats. With more speed investment, we'd take even more damage on the switch.

Your examples have you switching into Mamoswine Earthquake. You do not take "ample" damage if only opposing mons with Ground STAB can even 3HKO you. Your example makes it out as if we designed CAP10 as a wall when we had extensive discussion on avoiding that entirely. Nonetheless Intimidate throws many strong offensive mons into 4HKO territory. It's not a stretch that you can just EV enough to raise an offense or speed enough to keep it in 3HKO territory quite easily.

Exactly, such a set does not exist, even with Intimidate.

You can say that about anything provided you make a litany long enough. I'm not impressed that you have to toss together 5 intensely different threats just to be able to make that a plausible statement. Taunt/Waterfall/Disable/Recover with Intimidate does cover that list for the most part. None of them can switch in on such a set, and if they are allowed one turn to set up (rather than facing them all in a row) you'd be able to shut down most of them. Then all you'd have to say "but it can't counter Cleric Celebi too! Theoreymon that!"

 

[McLuvdisc]

Voted Intimidate, even though it doesn't look like it's going to win at this point. CAP 10 needs it to survive strong neutral attacks, especially on the switch in.

Just read that post of yours, Dominion. It sure would be fun tracing Electivire's Motor Drive to gain that speed boost as you switch in. Especially since CAP 10 already outspeeds Electivire...yeah. This must be the deadly Choice Scarf Electivire that has become so popular lately. And using Water Absorb to heal off of Vaporeon's Surfs! That one really saves your bacon. Imagine the incredible damage a Surf from Vappy could do to CAP 10's feeble 151/73/74 defenses...something in the range of 15%? And all CAP 10 can counter with is a Thunderbolt for the KO! Forgive the sarcasm, but I can't stand it when people use arguments like this for Trace (XD we could trace Nidoking's Poison Point so that he poisons himself as he attacks! So KEWL!) Trace is a fun gimmick that counters a few Pokemon, but it completely goes against the idea of customization. To all the people saying that Trace is good because it makes CAP 10 flexible, go back and read the original concept and you'll see why this is exactly what we don't want. And to all the people saying that Porygon2 is a Utility Counter because of Trace...thanks for the tip! I'll go on Shoddy now and use one to counter Latias. Wish me luck!

@Banryu - Hey don't worry man, I thought your abilities were awesome. A lot of people just seem to be opposed to making any custom abilities for this CAP, even if they would fit better than pre-existing ones. For example, I proposed a modified version of Magic Guard that only stopped entry hazard damage, since I was afraid of CAP 10 abusing Life Orb to become a sweeper...and we all recall the furious debate over that concept. :naughty:

Edit: Wow, sorry. For some reason I thought ShravanP made that first post...nobody saw that, right?

Second Edit: Dern it, I thought Intimidate might catch up, but it really doesn't look like it can right now. Time to mask my disappointment behind humor. As of right now, I'm throwing my support behind Shadow Tag. I also propose my own custom ability: Armageddon. When CAP 10 switches into play, every Pokemon on the opponent's team faints. Now there's a Utility Counter for ya!

 

[Rhys29]

Taunt/Waterfall/Disable/Recover with Intimidate does cover that list for the most part.

Actually without any ability Heart Swap / Waterfall / Magnet Rise / Brick Break deals with all the listed threats a bit better. However this whole theorymoning concept is rooted from the movepool which we don't have yet. Movepool should not be affecting anyone's vote.

 

[Deck Knight]

Voted Intimidate, even though it doesn't look like it's going to win at this point. CAP 10 needs it to survive strong neutral attacks, especially on the switch in.

Just read that post of yours, Dominion. It sure would be fun tracing Electivire's Motor Drive to gain that speed boost as you switch in. Especially since CAP 10 already outspeeds Electivire...yeah. This must be the deadly Choice Scarf Electivire that has become so popular lately. And using Water Absorb to heal off of Vaporeon's Surfs! That one really saves your bacon. Imagine the incredible damage a Surf from Vappy could do to CAP 10's feeble 151/73/74 defenses...something in the range of 15%? And all CAP 10 can counter with is a Thunderbolt for the KO! Forgive the sarcasm, but I can't stand it when people use arguments like this for Trace (XD we could trace Nidoking's Poison Point so that he poisons himself as he attacks! So KEWL!) Trace is a fun gimmick that counters a few Pokemon, but it completely goes against the idea of customization. To all the people saying that Trace is good because it makes CAP 10 flexible, go back and read the original concept and you'll see why this is exactly what we don't want. And to all the people saying that Porygon2 is a Utility Counter because of Trace...thanks for the tip! I'll go on Shoddy now and use one to counter Latias. Wish me luck!

Would someone please define for me "customization," especially as it relates to ability?

Trace is about as customizable as you can get. You can use your opponents own team against them in several instances depending on what you want to counter. There's nothing much more custom than a varying ability.

And you know full well Trace isn't everything to do with countering any given Pokemon. The insult to our intelligence with that snarky comment was entirely unnecessary. We do want flexibility, what we don't want is too much of it at any one given point in time. That balancing act is the most important aspect of the concept.

Oh, and just a note: If someone is using a competitive Nidoking on Shoddy, you'd probably trace Rivalry, not Poison Point, and given Shoddy's propensity for Male pokemon, it wouldn't be a bad deal.

Oh, and yes, and it is nice to have 25% of your 440+ HP healed by every Vaporeon Surf or Jolteon Thunderbolt you switch into, and be able to catch Electivire after you switch into Thunderpunch and outspeed it even if it got a previous boost, and also stop Scarftran cold. I know these are all meaningless to you given your penchant for derision, but I don't see any other ability that can do any of these things either. Much less one that capitalizes heavily on Scarf Flygon as well.

Immunities are important. It is always better to take 0% damage than it is to take 15%. Since our typing has no natural Immunities, Trace goes a long way to providing them, especially since many of the pokemon that can't counter it possess Levitate. Situational immunities, especially to opposing STABs (usually the most reliable and common move for an opponent to use), are quite useful in absence of permanent immunities.

 

[beej]

Poll's closed. Trace and Intimidate move on.