CAP 11 CAP 11 - Part 1 - Concept Poll 2

[shrang]

I'm going to vote Winter Wonderland, since Hail is extremely overlooked in OU these days, and the Pokemon that abuse it are pretty crappy (Mamoswine, Walrein, Froslass are probably the only ones that do decently). It's very hard to run Hail and to have a good Hail abusing CAP might finally mean it gets a little more love (In CAP, of course).

I'll also address why I'm not voting for Clean Up Kid or Perfect Mate, even though they are very good ideas. Clean Up Kid is cool, but I believe we already have a CAP that does that job pretty well, Krilowatt, even though his main purpose wasn't to be a clean up kid. Perfect Mate seems a bit too specific for my liking, as it is supposed to be a perfect partner to a very select few Pokemon that have good synergy with it.

 

[jumpluff]

I'm not a fan of Winter Wonderland. The concept of "Hail pokemon" sounds incredibly nice on paper, but in reality, there is almost nothing we can make (without a new ability) to abuse Hail. This is the main problem with Hail concepts, and this is the same argument against Hail the last time it made polls.

You have the following you can "abuse" with Hail:
- 100% accurate Blizzard
- Ice-type immunity (or MAGIC GUARD (oh wait I think we've done this before))
- Snow Cloak and Ice Body, which also grant immunities to hail if not Ice-type

You also have Snow Warning if the community decides we want a better Abomasnow.

What is there to abuse there? Furthermore, how does this pokemon not just build itself? There is not way this thing isn't going to be an Ice-type. It's really not a "Hail-abuser", and it probably won't be helping non-Hail stall teams that much. It NEEDS that STAB Blizzard, otherwise this pokemon may as well could have been Krilowatt.

But that's all it is. A Pokemon with STAB Blizzard and maybe one of the two abilities I listed (or some custom one but do we really want to go there? lol the 'reversing resists and weaknesses' ability suggested on CAP). How is that really a Hail Pokemon? What do we learn from that?

tl;dr: Hail is a crappy weather, and doesn't have enough effects to base a Pokemon around.


So I had to choose between Perfect Mate and Clean-Up Kid. I went with Clean-Up Kid, because I felt it was a concept that better fit our process. We've had concepts that haven't agreed with the process much before and I think most people find they've made poor-er CAPs.

This is why I went with Perfect Mate. While I like Winter Wonderland and it is my second choice, the thing is, hail has simply too many problems and not enough benefits that lend themselves to a unique CAP with many potential options. In the end, though, this would just end up being a better Ice-type because it needs STAB Blizzard, and the problem with hail is that all hail abusers have common traits that make them easy enough to sweep. The problems with hail could not be patched up with one Pokémon, sadly.

I chose Perfect Mate over Clean-Up Kid because there are already a lot of Pokémon that, while, yes, they do sweep, can revenge and clean up well enough. Perfect Mate lets us re-examine existing Pokémon without modifying them, adapting what we've already got to the metagame. In this way, I feel Perfect Mate is a more accessible concept. It also hits a specific niche that lets us examine an integral strategic concept to competitive Pokémon -- synergy. Most CAPs, I feel, have more been about the metagame if anything, and while this is definitely about the metagame, this more falls in strategy, imo. It's something quite different to what ground has already been covered. I also think there are more routes we can take with Perfect Mate than Clean-Up Kid.

 

[gbchaosmaster]

Clean-up Kid is gonna lose, but I don't care

I voted for the Clean-up Kid, because I like that role. We need a powerful late-game sweeper that can finish. I'm definitely in the minority there, but I'd rather not see Winter Wonderland because of the simple lack of use that the Pokemon would see. I may be wrong, but how many people would actually run hail teams, even with a hail abuser in the metagame?

Perfect Mate is a close second, because I like the idea of seeing a lesser-used Pokemon see more action, but I think that an entirely new role would be most useful to the metagame.

 

[Quilph]

I went with Winter Wonderland.

The way I see it, this need not be a restrictive concept. I know that much concern has rested with how much variety can be contained within a Pokemon that benefits from hail, but the key word is benefit. As others have observed, this does not need to be an ice Pokemon, and it would probably be more interesting if it weren't. By looking only to the current benefits that hail provides (like a 100% blizzard) we are limiting ourselves unnecessarily. Since we need not be constrained by the current benefits, this is our chance to brainstorm and discuss what it means for weather to be beneficial. Does it need to be tied in with moves, typing, and abilities alone? I don't think it does. I see some real potential in this concept as it opens a window into possibly expanding the purposes of weather effects.

Perfect Mate was a close second. The idea was a very good one, and I really like the new angle it provides concerning synergy and the principles behind strong teammates.

As for the Clean-Up Kid, I can only express my bemusement that it has reached this far. The purpose of CAP is to create something new that will help us explore the metagame in new ways. However, we already have a "clean-up kid", though he seems to be steadily losing visibility. That Pokemon is Weavile. There are two sentences in the concept which Weavile's presence refutes. First, there is A Pokemon capable of cleaning up lategame, but incapable of outright sweeping.That's Weavile for you. He is one of the fastest Pokemon in OU, outspeeding Pokemon like Starmie, Gengar, and Salamence. Ice Shard ensures that he can dish out the damage even when there are stat changes in speed. But his strongest physical STAB moves are Night Slash and Ice Punch, which do not provide the necessary coverage for a sweep. And his frailty means that he can't switched in and out much with Stealth Rock up. With this in mind, another sentence from the concept, No Pokemon is as capable of outspeeding and finishing off weak Pokemon, is shown to be false.

This is not to say the concept was a bad one, and I'd actually be interested to hear what others have to say with the above observation in mind.

 

[v]

Weavile fails to outspeed or even significantly damage many common Scarfers, making him a very poor lategame cleaner. Weavile is almost solely a revenge killer, and even at that it is outshined by the likes of Scarf Tyranitar and Scizor. The idea behind the concept was a Pokemon that could properly clean-up almost any weakened Pokemon lategame, something Weavile has trouble with due to its terrible defensive typing and mediocre defenses. The references to Deoxys-Speed were there because the concept was supposed to be able to defeat weakened Scarf Pokemon as well without having to resort to Priority. An example of a Pokemon that this would cover is Jirachi, who outspeed and threatens with Iron Head. Ideally, this Pokemon would be capable of KOing ScaffJirachi and other similar threats lategame after they've taken some damage.

I wouldn't mind in the least if Perfect Mate won. I like the idea of building a Pokemon to accomodate and address the weaknesses of another, and I think that if we picked a reasonable Pokemon, we would have a good, informative project on our hands.

I don't like Winter Wonderland much at all because I hate concepts rooted in Field Effects. I feel that the reason Field Effects take a backseat in OU is because they are unreliable, and short of making another Tyranitar, it would be nearly impossible to make any sort of Field Effect viable due to a single Pokemon. The typology behind things like Hail and Sun are really what make them suck, nothing else. One Pokemon who isn't an Ice-type won't really make THAT much of a difference in a true metagame. Obviously, Playtest results are skewed towards the Pokemon being Playtested, so Hail would certainly see more use during period, regardless of the project's success or failure. I feel that, in the end, we would just learn that a single Pokemon can't make an entire playstyle viable without being borderline-broken.

 

[Sceats]

I went with perfect mate for many of the reasons jumpluf outlined. I feel that winter wonderland requires too little creativity and would be very easy to complete as the concept essentially outlines exactly what this cap will become.

I also dismissed vaders clean-up-kid concept after realising that we were just making another deoxys-s without hazards. We have already had deoxys and dont have much more to learn from it, thats boring.

However the opportunity of snatching a lesser used pokemon and making it viable is a very appealing concept. Not only are we allowing something new to shine, but the concept, while seemingly linear is very complex. What makes something a perfect teamate? What are the different strategies we could use to help support the existing pokemon? Which existing pokemon could get the most out of a perfect mate? These are but a few questions we will need to ask ourselves and this, imo will give this cap a great opportunity to shine as a truly interesting and engaging project.

 

[jujuomi]

Hail teams are highly predictable usually with Abomasnow, Lapras/Walrein, Weavile, Froslass, Mamoswine, non-ice type. I think its time we get another alternative.

Winter Wonderland

 

[Veedrock]

One new pokemon won't suddenly make Hail less predictable. It may however make it viable, something I would like to see happen. Clean up kid is a bit redundant as far as what its capable of (and fuck if we have another 110+ speed CAP) while Perfect mate is...not very friendly with the process.

 

[The Pokemon Pimp]

I voted for Winter Wonderland. Hail is certainly one of the most static weather types in the game, so it'd be interesting to see what could be done with Hail on a sweeper, for example. Hail/Ice Pokemon in general have been underrated or ineffective in all metagames thus far; therefore, the potential to break this subpar trend is pretty great.

My next choice would have been Perfect Mate. It seems like an incredibly good concept to join such ranks as CeleTran or SkarmBliss and I would fully support this idea as well. The reason I did not vote for this was because I felt that a Pokemon created to supplement another was too specific for my liking. However, this choice has more potential than the Winter Wonderland concept (i.e. diverse typing, not restricted to hail) and could most likely be an excellent standalone Pokemon on its own.

 

[TubaKing]

I voted for Clean-Up Kid because I feel it is the idea that would cause the least centralization of the metagame, while filling the most useful role.

 

[Towelie]

I'm not a fan of Winter Wonderland. The concept of "Hail pokemon" sounds incredibly nice on paper, but in reality, there is almost nothing we can make (without a new ability) to abuse Hail. This is the main problem with Hail concepts, and this is the same argument against Hail the last time it made polls.

You have the following you can "abuse" with Hail:
- 100% accurate Blizzard
- Ice-type immunity (or MAGIC GUARD (oh wait I think we've done this before))
- Snow Cloak and Ice Body, which also grant immunities to hail if not Ice-type

You also have Snow Warning if the community decides we want a better Abomasnow.

What is there to abuse there? Furthermore, how does this pokemon not just build itself? There is not way this thing isn't going to be an Ice-type. It's really not a "Hail-abuser", and it probably won't be helping non-Hail stall teams that much. It NEEDS that STAB Blizzard, otherwise this pokemon may as well could have been Krilowatt.

But that's all it is. A Pokemon with STAB Blizzard and maybe one of the two abilities I listed (or some custom one but do we really want to go there? lol the 'reversing resists and weaknesses' ability suggested on CAP). How is that really a Hail Pokemon? What do we learn from that?

tl;dr: Hail is a crappy weather, and doesn't have enough effects to base a Pokemon around.


So I had to choose between Perfect Mate and Clean-Up Kid. I went with Clean-Up Kid, because I felt it was a concept that better fit our process. We've had concepts that haven't agreed with the process much before and I think most people find they've made poor-er CAPs.

That's exactly why I voted for Clean-Up Kid. Sounds like a very fun concept too!

 

[Azule]

From my point of view, all three of them are pretty strong concepts.After reading the hail concept a few times, I cant shake the view that this is going to become the Tyranitar of Hail,so to speak.
Clean-Up-Kid leaves me a non-supporting Deoxys-S impression, which makes one of the big parts of CAP obsolete, if we're to stick to the concept, we know how this thing will turn out.
Perfect Mate seems a little bit negative with the way it could give the opponent an advantage in predicting, because if it has limited use in OU beside helping Pokemon x, the moment you see it you'll know Pokemon X is probably on the team.However, it could also be done a little like the CeleTran combo, where both of them have use outside of partnering each other. For that reason, i'm voting Perfect Mate

 

[NightShadow]

I choose Winter Wonderland. I choose this because I think right now Hail is probably the least used weather condition, even though it has a non-Uber auto-inducer, unlike the EXTREMELY common Rain Dance teams, who don't actually have a non-Uber auto-inducer. Why were these so popular? Because they had a few Pokemon that really made it worth using (*cough* Kingdra and Kabutops *cough*).

I believe this new Hail Pokemon makes Hail teams much move viable.

 

[smallvizier]

I'm voting Winter Wonderland - but I certainly don't envisage an Ice-type pokemon here. What I'd like to see is something more along the lines of Perfect Mate, but with a larger scope.

That is, instead of helping one specific pokemon out, we aim to help Abomasnow, Sneazel and Walrein (for example) all at the same time. Remove their threats, discourage their equals, and just generally give Hail teams a fighting chance.

I think the biggest problem with Perfect Mate is that as soon as we've picked the mate (the most interesting choice), the rest of the process will be extremely narrow. With Winter Wonderland, we'll be focusing on helping out five or six 'top' Hail pokemon, which gives us a lot more options.

 

[McNUTTY]

I have chosen Perfect Mate because i have always been a huge fan of perfect Synergies together, they both cover each others weakness's and threats to their lives.
Late Game cleaner just sounds like it could end up like Deoxys-S, and Hail is just not a good weather condition, It just doesn't have the same great boosts as Rain, or even sun...

 

[zyrefredric]

this may have been mentioned before, but the inherent problem with the "Perfect Mate" concept is that the community would have to pass through selecting a "good-but-not-great OU pokemon" to pair it up with.. (and i'm envisioning it would not be a pretty process)

i'm voting for Winter Wonderland. as many have mentioned, the concept is very restrictive. but we could meet that and view it as a challenge. i want to see how CaP can explore such an idea and expand it way beyond its apparent limits.

 

[jc104]

A quick lesson in hail:

Hail teams are highly predictable usually with Abomasnow, Lapras/Walrein, Weavile, Froslass, Mamoswine, non-ice type. I think its time we get another alternative.

Lol isn't it hilarious how people that think hail is predictable have no idea what a good hail team looks like. My best shot at a "standard" hail team is Abomasnow/Gliscor (maybe Swampert)/Heatran/Walrein/Rotom/Tentacruel. You simply cannot afford to have more than 2 ice types on a team, which are usually Abomasnow and Walrein. Many of the best hail teams I see contain only Abomasnow, and will carry pokemon like Forretress, Skarmory, Blissey, Gyarados (even Nidoqueen!), and fighting-types like Machamp, Hariyama and Hitmontop (as seen in Lady Bug's hail team). There simply isn't space for a Walrein when considering his Sr weakness, his weakness to common moves that stack up with other effective hail pokemon, and the lack of support he provides. Hopefully a "Winter Wonderland" CAP would allow us to use the ice-types like Walrein to their full potential without looking at the repercussions.

All this stuff about hail being so bad is ridulous. I find it to be the second or third most viable field effect in OU at the moment, behind Sand, and maybe rain. Compared to Sun, Trick room and Gravity, it is truly fantastic. The effects of Hail are greater than the effects of sand - it hurts hugely more pokemon, gives a few pokemon heightened defensive capability, like Walrein, and provides a very powerful, perfectly accurate attack. It is entirely the pokemon that make the field effect viable. For the people who think this is impossible, I truly believe that if we build something that covers Fire, Rock and Fighting moves effectively, countering Tyranitar and Infernape, and can either spin, or provide toxic spikes, would make Hail entirely viable. The difficult part is to ensure that it would not benefit all stall teams equally as well.

 

[capefeather]

It's a shame that basically all of the "explore the metagame" type concepts have been eliminated because I believe that that should be the prevailing goal of CAP. (It's even in the mission statement!) With this said, I voted for Perfect Mate.

It is intriguing to see what a Tyranitar-grade Hail user would do to the metagame, but I just wasn't convinced that such a change would necessarily be an improvement. Clean-up Kid put up a pretty convincing argument for itself, but ultimately it just seems a bit self-centred and I don't know if I want CAP 11 to be self-centred. While Perfect Mate still doesn't exactly fulfill what I had in mind, it's good enough for me. Synergy is the backbone of competitive team building, and this concept tickles my hope for a more informed realization of such an important part of competitive Pokémon.

 

[Darkamber8828]

I think this is going to be long.

Winter Wonderland

Can Hail become a legitimate, non-gimmick strategy in OU with better Pokemon to take advantage of it?
Can Hail effectively function in a manner other than HailStall?
Will a greater prevalence of Hail decentralize the weather metagame from around Sandstream users?
In what interesting ways can we develop a Hail-based Pokemon other than what we've already seen?

The point this thing seems to make is "make a sweeper who can kill stuff by utilizing infinite hail by utilizing

moves, typing, and abilities

and more. However, looking at this

Topic Leader Nominations
Policy Review Committee Applications
Topic Leader Selection
Concept Submissions
Part 1 (Concept Poll)
Concept Assessment
Part 2 (Main Type Poll)
Part 3 (Secondary Type Poll)
Part 4 (Stat and Movepool Limits)
Art Submissions
Stat Spread Submissions
Part 5a (Ability Discussion)
Part 5b (Ability Poll)
Part 6 (Stat Spread Poll)
Part 7 (Art Poll)
Part 8 (Counters Discussion)
Name Submissions

Part 9 (Name Poll)
Sprite Submissions
Part 10a (Attacking Moves Discussion)
Part 10b (Attacking Moves Poll)
Part 11a (Non-Attacking Moves Discussion)
Part 11b (Non-Attacking Moves Poll)
Part 12a (Complete Movepool Discussion)
Part 12b (Complete Movepool Poll)
Part 13 (Sprite Poll)
Misc (Pre-Evos, Height, Weight, etc.)
Server Implementation
Playtesting
Analysis

There is nothing else for a pokemon to benefit from hail. Can we make a new move for Cap 11 to abuse hail with? Yes. Can we give it Icy Swift Swim? Yeah! Can we give it a secondary STAB That blows stuff up (Keeping in mind that Blizzard without STAB will suck)? Sure!

Can Hail become a Legit offensive strategy with ONE MORE offensive pokemon to abuse it? (Keeping in mind that your other offensive pokemon was Mixed Mamoswine…) Yes, if we give it the power of Kingdra+Kabutops+Ludicolo in Kyogre rain.

Long story short, hail cannot be a legit offensive strategy unless this new abuser is Uber.

(I know some of this stuff has been said already)

So I had to choose between Perfect Mate and Clean-Up Kid.

In the end, I voted for Clean-Up Kid. Although they were both great concepts, Clean-Up Kid won because it would break the metagame less. Blablabla, Tennis says

The metagame will centralize around that pair that we choose. However this is worse because then there will be two Pokemon on a majority of teams, and the metagame will centralize extremely heavily around this combination. People will again "counterteam" this combination, leading to more heavy centralization as people use the combination and the combination's counters on the same team.

I also found the arguments against it the weakest.

 

[Fuzznip]

Because nothing is going to really change in the next two hours, I will start the next poll early.