jas61292 we could always run both Special Dual STABs + physical Fighting STAB. The issue is we will actually need to split EVs and put some EVs into attack if we want to hit anything besides Chansey, like OHKO AV Colossoil after Stealth Rock (148 Attack EVs) or 2HKO Klefki (112 Attack EVs), the attack in reference being Close Combat.
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CAP 22 CAP 22 - Part 6 - Secondary Ability Discussion
- Thread starter HeaLnDeaL
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I've said this in chat, but if No Guard is actually going to be taken seriously, Mega Launcher is an option that does the same major thing (gives us a 100% accurate special fighting move with 120 BP). The "now hurricanes, etc hit us all the time!" argument for No Guard being a "risky" ability (risk here as a method to create "balance") is an awful argument, and we should have learned our lessen with No Guard Aurumoth for this.
Mega Launcher is much more limited than No Guard, which puts less strain on the moveset stage. If we go into moves with Mega Launcher, we know we're boosting Aura Sphere and that's about it. No Guard just creates extra stress via opening a lot of zomg coverage move discussion without any super tangible benefits over Mega Launcher.
That said, I think giving us that much power at perfect accuracy might be a little distracting in itself, and so I don't really support these abilities.
Mega Launcher is much more limited than No Guard, which puts less strain on the moveset stage. If we go into moves with Mega Launcher, we know we're boosting Aura Sphere and that's about it. No Guard just creates extra stress via opening a lot of zomg coverage move discussion without any super tangible benefits over Mega Launcher.
That said, I think giving us that much power at perfect accuracy might be a little distracting in itself, and so I don't really support these abilities.
Cursed Body as just a method to troll people while pivoting.
Let's say they have a machamp that close combats the hell out of your team mate... but no... you switched into CAP 22 and Machamp now can't use ice punch, then you can parting shot and eat his team with Serperior.
I'd say it helps the concept with the ability to neuter Pokémon outta nowhere.
Additionally I just find Cursed Body fun and awesome, and giving it to something with parting shot is probably more fun than hitting a Blaziken that has x6 attack and x6 speed with topsy turvy using a focus sash Malamar.
Let's say they have a machamp that close combats the hell out of your team mate... but no... you switched into CAP 22 and Machamp now can't use ice punch, then you can parting shot and eat his team with Serperior.
I'd say it helps the concept with the ability to neuter Pokémon outta nowhere.
Additionally I just find Cursed Body fun and awesome, and giving it to something with parting shot is probably more fun than hitting a Blaziken that has x6 attack and x6 speed with topsy turvy using a focus sash Malamar.
TLT Announcement:
Alright everyone, I know I'm early, but I'm extending the deadline for this thread by an additional 24 hours past the previous deadline, meaning there are about 27.5 hours left as of this post. As long as this discussion has lasted partly due to my absence, the thread has sparked back with the inclusion of offensive abilities. I don't feel like discussion is quite over; one more day will do.
Alright on to something for the actual discussion. As of right now, I feel that CAP22 will be very one-dimensional without a good secondary ability. Right now, CAP22 will likely get STAB moves, very limited coverage, a couple status moves, and, obviously, Parting Shot. While there is room for variation, CAP22 will likely be able to perform one set: a specially offensive pivot consisting of Moonblast / Aura Sphere or Focus Blast or Close Combat / status (probably Taunt) or one of cap's limited coverage moves (probably Grass or Steel type) / Parting Shot. While this will be effective, I also believe having a good secondary ability will help CAP use Parting Shot to its maximum potential. Why is this? Unpredictability forces switches, which is what CAP22 needs to do as a fast Parting Shot users to use Parting Shot effectively. As long as our secondary ability remains secondary to Natural Cure, we can have an ability that makes CAP22 a little more versatile, even if we have to limit ourselves in our movepool stage. I feel that this is an important point to consider as we move forward. Note that this is just my personal opinion, as always.
Alright everyone, I know I'm early, but I'm extending the deadline for this thread by an additional 24 hours past the previous deadline, meaning there are about 27.5 hours left as of this post. As long as this discussion has lasted partly due to my absence, the thread has sparked back with the inclusion of offensive abilities. I don't feel like discussion is quite over; one more day will do.
Alright on to something for the actual discussion. As of right now, I feel that CAP22 will be very one-dimensional without a good secondary ability. Right now, CAP22 will likely get STAB moves, very limited coverage, a couple status moves, and, obviously, Parting Shot. While there is room for variation, CAP22 will likely be able to perform one set: a specially offensive pivot consisting of Moonblast / Aura Sphere or Focus Blast or Close Combat / status (probably Taunt) or one of cap's limited coverage moves (probably Grass or Steel type) / Parting Shot. While this will be effective, I also believe having a good secondary ability will help CAP use Parting Shot to its maximum potential. Why is this? Unpredictability forces switches, which is what CAP22 needs to do as a fast Parting Shot users to use Parting Shot effectively. As long as our secondary ability remains secondary to Natural Cure, we can have an ability that makes CAP22 a little more versatile, even if we have to limit ourselves in our movepool stage. I feel that this is an important point to consider as we move forward. Note that this is just my personal opinion, as always.
One argument about Sticky Hold is that name a knock off user that it beats besides Msableye and some other that doesnt have a strong move in its arsenal. Like say Colossoil?
252+ Atk Colossoil Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Clefable: 195-231 (63.1 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If you think you can switch into knock off (which sounds very nice) and backfires on you and takes an eq instead, and if this has no recovery, thats damage it aint getting back. And cap22 is all about longevity with Pshot.
252+ Atk Colossoil Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Clefable: 195-231 (63.1 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If you think you can switch into knock off (which sounds very nice) and backfires on you and takes an eq instead, and if this has no recovery, thats damage it aint getting back. And cap22 is all about longevity with Pshot.
Out of all the moves Mega Launcher works with,with the exception of Aura Sphere, it's easy to see that Mega Launcher will have minimum impact. We won't be giving it Water-type coverage due to having fire-types as a check/counter. Dragon Pulse seems highly unlikely and Heal Pulse is, like the number 5, right out. Dark Pulse is probably the only thing that could be added on as coverage that Mega Launcher would be a strike against, and that could be something we want to avoid anyways.
Meanwhile a 50% boost to Aura Sphere would give it a 120 base power, so it would be about the same as No Guard Focus Blast regardless, just without an interactions that could make us not want to consider some other moves. Mega Launcher seems fine.
Regarding what snake_rattler said: Aroma Veil and Mold Breaker could allow for more supportive moves being used on a set without worrying about Taunt or abilities preventing them from happening. This could allow for more variance in sets, which would help with the unpredictability. That said: I do believe something like Reckless would help more on that front compared to No Guard and Mega Launcher since it involves a move we haven't assumed would be on most sets yet: High Jump Kick. The fact that it would be ill-advisable with Natural Cure gives it a nice clarity in purpose too.
(You address the issue I have, but I still think I need to repeat this)
The problem with this logic is that you actively have to choose to run one of those abilities over Natural Cure. You have to accept that you're choosing a Taunt immunity (it'll probably be easier just to smack CAP22to hinder it than use Taunt against it) or that you're choosing an way to get around 4 Pokemon that we already have decent if not great match ups against in place of a way to get rid of status. Aroma Veil, Mold Breaker, and many other reactionary abilities (Sticky Hold too) brought up in this thread will probably never be used on CAP22 just because you're reducing your abilities effectiveness from helping out against many status users to, in the case of Aroma Veil, Taunt users, many of which have better ways to hinder CAP22 (Heatran had Flash Cannon, Talonflame had Acrobatics and Brave Bird) or exactly four Pokemon that we can pretty much already beat. We can give CAP22 a secondary ability that gives Natural Cure competition as long as it remains secondary to Nature Cure.
So, in considering the discussion of secondary abilities that complement Natural Cure, I looked up the ability list and one stood out to me: Marvel Scale.
What does Marvel Scale do for CAP that Natural Cure doesn't? Well, instead of status being cured when we switch out, with Marvel Scale CAP is a lot more durable against many of our threats - but not significantly more powerful which is a criticism of other abilities. Threats like Scizor do not employ status, while Chansey does, and IF CAP is statused, a lot of our matchups against more defensive Pokemon are improved. Hippowdon and TankChomp will not be able to 3HKO a Statused CAP with EQ, and it also weakens Psyshock attackers like Mega Slowbro if CAP is paralyzed by Thunder Wave.
Now obviously switching out and curing it is superior to staying in with a defense boost, however since we're using Parting Shot it is unlikely that Toxic and Burn will accumulate much damage on CAP, while the defense boost it gets will remain constant. I also do not believe CAP would start running Toxic Orb based on this assumption because the power cut would be too severe - however if statused its matchups become much better when it is in play.
Thus Marvel Scale is a great Secondary ability. It won't overshadow Natural Cure, but it will make CAP a good switchin against Pokemon like Rotom-W that spam Status, and then use that opportunity to gain additional switchins against physical attackers on the opposing team.
What does Marvel Scale do for CAP that Natural Cure doesn't? Well, instead of status being cured when we switch out, with Marvel Scale CAP is a lot more durable against many of our threats - but not significantly more powerful which is a criticism of other abilities. Threats like Scizor do not employ status, while Chansey does, and IF CAP is statused, a lot of our matchups against more defensive Pokemon are improved. Hippowdon and TankChomp will not be able to 3HKO a Statused CAP with EQ, and it also weakens Psyshock attackers like Mega Slowbro if CAP is paralyzed by Thunder Wave.
Now obviously switching out and curing it is superior to staying in with a defense boost, however since we're using Parting Shot it is unlikely that Toxic and Burn will accumulate much damage on CAP, while the defense boost it gets will remain constant. I also do not believe CAP would start running Toxic Orb based on this assumption because the power cut would be too severe - however if statused its matchups become much better when it is in play.
Thus Marvel Scale is a great Secondary ability. It won't overshadow Natural Cure, but it will make CAP a good switchin against Pokemon like Rotom-W that spam Status, and then use that opportunity to gain additional switchins against physical attackers on the opposing team.
Ignus
Copying deli meat to hard drive
CAP being one dimensional isn't exactly a bad thing. I don't think that "status absorbing, poking, parting shot using, with really good STAB coverage" is really a niche that needs to be expanded on.
A good secondary ability, if anything, is just overkill. We don't need it. It's completely reasonable for a pokemon to have one, very specific, very useful niche. Giving CAP access to powerful abilities like No Guard and Mega Launcher that encourage giving CAP coverage that hits things we don't want to hit during Movepool/Moveset phase (Mega Launcher Water Pulse, looking at you) is something I'm going to strongly advise against now, before we get to that point in the process. I understand that we can draw the line at that second point rather than here, but it should be noted that we often fall over it when we try to tiptoe.
I'd encourage anyone who's suggesting a something that expands CAP's current role to take a second look and ask themselves "Why do we need this extra utility?". Go do calcs. Decide exactly what having access to an ability will change about what can and can't handle CAP22. I want to be reassured that we won't be harming the integrity of our check and counters list - because if it doesn't do something positive in that direction, why did we even have that discussion?
A good secondary ability, if anything, is just overkill. We don't need it. It's completely reasonable for a pokemon to have one, very specific, very useful niche. Giving CAP access to powerful abilities like No Guard and Mega Launcher that encourage giving CAP coverage that hits things we don't want to hit during Movepool/Moveset phase (Mega Launcher Water Pulse, looking at you) is something I'm going to strongly advise against now, before we get to that point in the process. I understand that we can draw the line at that second point rather than here, but it should be noted that we often fall over it when we try to tiptoe.
I'd encourage anyone who's suggesting a something that expands CAP's current role to take a second look and ask themselves "Why do we need this extra utility?". Go do calcs. Decide exactly what having access to an ability will change about what can and can't handle CAP22. I want to be reassured that we won't be harming the integrity of our check and counters list - because if it doesn't do something positive in that direction, why did we even have that discussion?
Thing about Mega Launcher vs No Guard is if Mega Launcher would have another pulse move like Dark Pulse, which we might want a Fast Mega Launcher mon. That is a nice niche.
No Guard really just puts to focus on 3 moves, but intended for 1: Focus Blast, High Jump Kick and Play Rough (unless our movepool discussion cuts or add new moves into the list).
I got the chance to test cap22 myself (and tested many abilities in practice) and turns out that Aroma Veil No Guard/Mega Launcher and Frisk had the best success.
What i found was cap22 was real easy to hit and run, pivot hit hard, balancebreak (not really wallbreak), clean, offer utility for your own wallbreakers/sweepers, and helps ease switching into threats/lowering offensive pressure.
Another thing i found was it almost never took a hit because its always switching out/hit and running.
No Guard/Mega Launcher had success in putting offensive pressure, and have a sort of hit and run utility and depending on the 4th move. Also, it isnt as OP as you think. No Guard really just boosts 3 moves but this doesnt make hjk any less risky cause ghosts can still switch into and mindscrew you. No Guard Play rough isnt really impressive while Focus Blast spam will be very cool as blowing some ofyour switch ins back and Pshot afterwards. Mega Launcher with maybe another pulse move can make it a pain to switch into without you losing power in the process. Making this dude even more annoying. It didnt really deviate from the Parting Shot usage. But rather, it gave it more reasons to run Parting Shot, because otherwise, itd be a all out attacker that would want to help its allies out by lowering the damage they will take on switching in.
Frisk eases scouting and helps you be able to use the knowledge to help work around specific mons and come with ways to play around them and win, especially around choice mons. For a pivot, this was really good.
Aroma Veil was very subtle, and it was like Mega Diancie having Magic Bounce. I tested Aroma Veil against low ladder strats and it was really useful to avoid low ladder shenanigans, and get you out of low ladder fast. Aroma veil turned out to make cap22 "immune to BS".
But thats from my testing alone. Have fun :]
No Guard really just puts to focus on 3 moves, but intended for 1: Focus Blast, High Jump Kick and Play Rough (unless our movepool discussion cuts or add new moves into the list).
I got the chance to test cap22 myself (and tested many abilities in practice) and turns out that Aroma Veil No Guard/Mega Launcher and Frisk had the best success.
What i found was cap22 was real easy to hit and run, pivot hit hard, balancebreak (not really wallbreak), clean, offer utility for your own wallbreakers/sweepers, and helps ease switching into threats/lowering offensive pressure.
Another thing i found was it almost never took a hit because its always switching out/hit and running.
No Guard/Mega Launcher had success in putting offensive pressure, and have a sort of hit and run utility and depending on the 4th move. Also, it isnt as OP as you think. No Guard really just boosts 3 moves but this doesnt make hjk any less risky cause ghosts can still switch into and mindscrew you. No Guard Play rough isnt really impressive while Focus Blast spam will be very cool as blowing some ofyour switch ins back and Pshot afterwards. Mega Launcher with maybe another pulse move can make it a pain to switch into without you losing power in the process. Making this dude even more annoying. It didnt really deviate from the Parting Shot usage. But rather, it gave it more reasons to run Parting Shot, because otherwise, itd be a all out attacker that would want to help its allies out by lowering the damage they will take on switching in.
Frisk eases scouting and helps you be able to use the knowledge to help work around specific mons and come with ways to play around them and win, especially around choice mons. For a pivot, this was really good.
Aroma Veil was very subtle, and it was like Mega Diancie having Magic Bounce. I tested Aroma Veil against low ladder strats and it was really useful to avoid low ladder shenanigans, and get you out of low ladder fast. Aroma veil turned out to make cap22 "immune to BS".
But thats from my testing alone. Have fun :]
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boxofkangaroos
this is the day of the expanding man
Time to throw out some of my opinions before the thread ends.
Marvel Scale: I like the look of this one quite a bit. As Deck Knight said, it allows CAP to be a different kind of status absorber without overshadowing Natural Cure. While Natural Cure lets CAP take a status move and shrug it off by using Parting Shot or hard-switching, Marvel Scale lets CAP take advantage of status and turn a negative into a positive. It also further improves CAP's matchup against passive mons like Hippowdon and Klefki. An added bonus of Marvel Scale is the possibility of running dual STABs, Parting Shot, and Sleep Talk, so that CAP can attack with a boosted Defense stat even after taking a Spore or Sleep Powder from Amoonguss, Breloom, or Tangrowth. Natural Cure would still generally be the more common option, but Marvel Scale is a very nice complementary ability for CAP.
Tough Claws and Reckless: I'm grouping these together because they both just boost CAP's physical attack. I am not a fan of these abilities. First off, they contradict what CAP's stat spread was meant to achieve. The spread was built to deemphasize Attack, but either one of these abilities reemphasizes it for little to no reason besides threatening Chansey more. Second, while they do increase CAP's versatility, they just seem awkward to use. Without any Attack investment, Tough Claws puts CAP's effective Attack stat at 250, which is equivalent to 232 EVs. To me, that still doesn't seem high enough to justify a mixed set. And I wouldn't sacrifice Special Attack investment just to try to boost this mediocre Attack stat, even with Tough Claws.
Mega Launcher and No Guard: Definite no from me. A 120 Base Power Special Fighting-type move with no drawbacks is ridiculously strong and messes with our threat list.
Sticky Hold: Yes, it further strengthens CAP's matchup and switch-in opportunities against Knock Off users as well as ensures that it keeps its Life Orb, but I'm not sure if that's an important enough niche to justify running Sticky Hold over Natural Cure. Plus, CAP loses to other moves from common Knock Off users like Weavile and Tornadus-T. So I'm a bit iffy about this one.
Aroma Veil: Here's one that directly complements Parting Shot by ensuring that we can always use it, even after a faster Taunt. There has been plenty of discussion throughout the thread and I think it is another good choice as a secondary ability that won't overshadow Natural Cure.
Marvel Scale: I like the look of this one quite a bit. As Deck Knight said, it allows CAP to be a different kind of status absorber without overshadowing Natural Cure. While Natural Cure lets CAP take a status move and shrug it off by using Parting Shot or hard-switching, Marvel Scale lets CAP take advantage of status and turn a negative into a positive. It also further improves CAP's matchup against passive mons like Hippowdon and Klefki. An added bonus of Marvel Scale is the possibility of running dual STABs, Parting Shot, and Sleep Talk, so that CAP can attack with a boosted Defense stat even after taking a Spore or Sleep Powder from Amoonguss, Breloom, or Tangrowth. Natural Cure would still generally be the more common option, but Marvel Scale is a very nice complementary ability for CAP.
Tough Claws and Reckless: I'm grouping these together because they both just boost CAP's physical attack. I am not a fan of these abilities. First off, they contradict what CAP's stat spread was meant to achieve. The spread was built to deemphasize Attack, but either one of these abilities reemphasizes it for little to no reason besides threatening Chansey more. Second, while they do increase CAP's versatility, they just seem awkward to use. Without any Attack investment, Tough Claws puts CAP's effective Attack stat at 250, which is equivalent to 232 EVs. To me, that still doesn't seem high enough to justify a mixed set. And I wouldn't sacrifice Special Attack investment just to try to boost this mediocre Attack stat, even with Tough Claws.
Mega Launcher and No Guard: Definite no from me. A 120 Base Power Special Fighting-type move with no drawbacks is ridiculously strong and messes with our threat list.
Sticky Hold: Yes, it further strengthens CAP's matchup and switch-in opportunities against Knock Off users as well as ensures that it keeps its Life Orb, but I'm not sure if that's an important enough niche to justify running Sticky Hold over Natural Cure. Plus, CAP loses to other moves from common Knock Off users like Weavile and Tornadus-T. So I'm a bit iffy about this one.
Aroma Veil: Here's one that directly complements Parting Shot by ensuring that we can always use it, even after a faster Taunt. There has been plenty of discussion throughout the thread and I think it is another good choice as a secondary ability that won't overshadow Natural Cure.
Just very briefly, I think that Marvel Scale is a bit pointless since the defense boost is diminished by losing HP from status (and if the argument is we want CAP22 to be paralyzed to take the boost, then that's a bad argument since we are FPS, not SPS). Rest Talk could work with Marvel Scale, but we just don't have the stats to use that and it would eat up too many precious moveslots.
boxofkangaroos
this is the day of the expanding man
I agree that Marvel Scale works better on a mon with better defensive stats, but it would still let CAP survive some crucial hits. Plus, if CAP can live an attack and fire back with Parting Shot or an attacking move, that will all happen before CAP loses any HP from status.
The basis that the defense boost is substantially greater than the HP loss is unsubstantiated so far by a severe lack of calcs. While pshot does allow some of this status damage to be skipped, CAP22 is still a largely offensive mon and will need to be used to attack passive mons. More often than not, the passive mons that CAP22 is supposed to stay in on and defeat will be the ones giving CAP status (mega sab, malaconda, toxic cyclohm, potentially chansey, potentially heatran, etc) so that argument is further weakened.
Out of curiosity, which pokemon on the threats list does it mess with? None come to mind considering we're already fine with said threat list assuming we somehow don't miss a Focus Blast. (iirc)
Alright guys it's time for the long awaited slate:
Aroma Veil
Frisk
Mega Launcher
Sticky Hold
No Competitive Ability
Aroma Veil is a good ability that prevents random Taunt users from stopping CAP22 from using Parting Shot. It's niche and probably won't see much use over Natural Cure, but it's pro-concept.
Frisk was supported many times throughout the thread and didn't really have many counter arguments. It helps CAP22 scout for Choice Scarf sets for itself and helps CAP22 potentially figure out sets for its teammates.
Mega Launcher got some support towards the end of the thread. Many users supported No Guard too, but in the end, they accomplish mostly the same goals. Ultimately, I chose to slate Mega Launcher because a) I don't want to split a voterbase on two abilities that do virtually the same thing, and b) Mega Launcher is much more manageable during the Movepool stage than No Guard.
Sticky Hold is probably the most supported ability in the thread, and it solidifies CAP22's secondary role as a Knock Off absorber. It can't play around all Knock Off users, but it can switch into most Ground-type and most Choice-locked users.
I chose not to slate Tough Claws and Reckless, as there were too many dissenters, be it because they go against the intentions of our stat spread, aren't effective against the targets they need to be effective against, or otherwise. Most of the other abilities were either way too niche or anti-concept.
Aroma Veil
Frisk
Mega Launcher
Sticky Hold
No Competitive Ability
Aroma Veil is a good ability that prevents random Taunt users from stopping CAP22 from using Parting Shot. It's niche and probably won't see much use over Natural Cure, but it's pro-concept.
Frisk was supported many times throughout the thread and didn't really have many counter arguments. It helps CAP22 scout for Choice Scarf sets for itself and helps CAP22 potentially figure out sets for its teammates.
Mega Launcher got some support towards the end of the thread. Many users supported No Guard too, but in the end, they accomplish mostly the same goals. Ultimately, I chose to slate Mega Launcher because a) I don't want to split a voterbase on two abilities that do virtually the same thing, and b) Mega Launcher is much more manageable during the Movepool stage than No Guard.
Sticky Hold is probably the most supported ability in the thread, and it solidifies CAP22's secondary role as a Knock Off absorber. It can't play around all Knock Off users, but it can switch into most Ground-type and most Choice-locked users.
I chose not to slate Tough Claws and Reckless, as there were too many dissenters, be it because they go against the intentions of our stat spread, aren't effective against the targets they need to be effective against, or otherwise. Most of the other abilities were either way too niche or anti-concept.
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