CAP 23 CAP 23 - Part 5 - Stat Spread Submissions

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I'm not going to bother submitting a spread as I've seen a few already that I'm liking. However, I am going to advocate for a max speed of 101.

People, Dragon/Ghost + Comatose is amazing defensively, and will neturally check a plethora of offensive mons like Mega Charizard Y, Volcorona, Tapu Bulu, Serprior, Volkraken, Auramoth, Plasmanta, Keldeo, to name a few. With sufficient bulk, a CAP switch in on these guys will prompt the opposition to switch in the defensive mons that are our trap targets.

Zapdos is the fastest mon on our target list, and 101 would outspeed fully invested Zapdos by 1 point, as well as being fast enough to scare off the Charizards, Volcorona and Plasmanta. I'm less worried about outspeeding Keldeo, as CAP is immune to Fighting moves, Keldeo often runs Icy Wind for speed drops anyway, Hydro Pump misses 30% of the time, and CAP should have enough bulk to shrug off a 2HKO from Specs Keldeo anyway.

It also stands to reason that after a successful trap kill, it needs somewhat average speed to ensure that more offensive mons can force it out. 120 speed is ridiculous. This guy is a wallbreaker; not a sweeper.

It's especially laughable that anyone should expect CAP to outspeed Kerfluffle, as it sports both a type advantage AND Parting Shot to escape trapping. That's a solid counterplay! The same is true of Ninetales-A, who can set up AV in CAP's face and threaten it with its STABs.

Gengar, Kitsuno, Lati@s, Mega Diancie and fully speed invested Offensive Garchomp should all be offensive checks, in addition to speedy Ice types (Syclant, Weavile), Dark (speedy ones, bulky ones and slower ones with Sucker Punch) and bulky Steel types. Defensive Garchomp lacking full speed investment would not be a check. I'd also say Zygarde and Mega Charizard X should beat it, which they would after setting a DD, but I feel CAP should have higher speed than Mega Char Y so it wouldn't have to tank two powerful Fire STABs or Dragon Pulse every time it comes in. Also, I'd like to avoid the mind games of CAP having guess if it's facing Char X or Y before it mega evos. 101 speed accomplishes this.

This leaves us outspeed by standard Regenerator Crucible, but that's fine, as that thing spams its powerful Head Smash and I don't think we're surviving that move anyway. In any case, Crucible isn't really a defensive mon we need to target because its defensive typing is ass.

At the VERY least, CAP should outspeed Landorus' 91 base speed, so it can nail it with an Ice move after a successful trap before it can U-Turn out on the next turn. It should have some speed cushion above 91 to prevent speedy Landorus from creeping it. This also allows CAP to avoid Tomohawk's Air Slash flinch BS.

Outspeeding Specs Volkraken's 95 base would also be very helpful, as those Analytic boosted STAB's sting, even with the resists. Then there's always hazards chip to think about too. So 96 speed is a more accurate min.

-----

Tl;dr: Let's not get too crazy with the speed. This guy needs offensive checks, or he'll be OP. Aim for 92 min, 96 is better, and 101 max is best.
 
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G-Luke

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I also agree with the sentiment that CAP23 should at least outspeed Landorus Zapdos and Volcarona. I like the ability to outspeed and threaten Krilowatt, so I think 106 is the perfect speed stat for CAP23

Also with thedefensive ability choice, we need a meaty attack stat to threaten things so the 135-139 range is perfect for it.
 

jas61292

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Obviously I am making a submission myself, and so I will go more into this there, but I think people have become so focused on beating the things we want to threaten that we have lost sight of the actual concept: trapping. Our goal is not to just beat these Pokemon because they are good Pokemon. Our goal it to make it so that there are certain Pokemon who will be enticed to switch in, but have the potential to be beaten, depending on our set, and then for us to take advantage of the fact that we trap them by preventing them from switching out after our set is revealed. Obviously, being able to beat these Pokemon in the first place is important, but... if they are not going to switch into us in order to be trapped, then the fact that we beat them is frankly irrelevant to our concept. As is, our chosen targets have very little reason to actually switch in, and I would like to challenge other submitters to actually show, not how we kill them, but why they would risk giving us that chance.

A trapper built to trap things that it will never have the opportunity to trap is just going to play like a normal offensive Pokemon. That is something we absolutely need to avoid.
 

reachzero

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A lot to cover in this post! There are a number of different groupings we can sort the submissions so far into, and I have different questions to ask of each of those groupings. Each grouping represents a bit of a different role for this CAP, which is incredibly important at this stage. Let me begin by saying that I like that people are discussing how the stats impact our relationship with specific Pokemon, this is exactly the question we need to answer with our stats. I've seen a lot more offensive calcs so far than defensive ones, which is somewhat odd since our typing is certain while our movepool is not--defensive calcs are a lot more meaningful at this stage. I think the most significant divider in discussing what CAP 23 will do and be is the question of the famous fast/powerful/bulky triangle, in which we have to choose two. This is not a small question; remember that whatever role we choose, we are competing with other Pokemon that take on the same role. The CAPTT3 Cumulative Usage Stats (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/captt-3-usage-stats.3612337/#post-7505635) show that through week 4, Kerfluffle had been used one time, despite it's "really fast" speed stat and great offensive typing. "Why" is pretty clear, when you see that Tapu Koko was used 24 times and Greninja 18 times in that span. When you live on being really fast and hitting really hard, you can't be second or third best at doing that. When we make our stats, then, it is important to identify what Pokemon already do the roles each submission puts CAP 23 in, and how CAP 23 would do those differently with that submission.

With that said, let me address each of the submission groupings that have popped up so far, and then address some issues with specific submissions.


Middling Speed (<100), Overwhelming Attack (Comparisons: Kyurem-B, Volkraken)

mxmts: 100 HP/138 Atk/55 Def/55 SpA/110 SpD/92 Spe (550 BST) (301.20 BSR)

Shasimo: 86 HP / 146 Atk / 86 Def / 57 SpA / 122 SpD / 92 Spe (589 BST) (334.40 BSR)

david0895: 84 HP / 130 Atk / 93 Def / 51 SpA / 101 SpD / 96 Spe (565 BST) (305.16 BSR)

Garbagery: 95 HP / 130 Atk / 90 Def/65 SpA / 95 SpD / 95 Spe (575 BST) (321.93 BSR)

Kyubics: 90 HP / 127 Atk / 78 Def / 58 SpA / 116 SpD / 96 Spe (565 BST) (315.96 BSR)

Exploudit: 79 HP / 139 Atk / 79 Def / 67 SpA / 109 SpD / 97 Spe (570 BST) (316.63 BSR)

NumberCruncher: 76 HP / 139 Atk / 96 Def / 60 SpA / 141 SpD / 93 Spe (605 BST) (341.9 BSR) --Illegal

Rifou88: 76 HP / 124 Atk / 88 Def / 60 SpA / 120 SpD / 93 Spe (541 BST) (306 BSR)

Mr Holiday: 108 HP / 137 Atk / 63 Def / 42 SpA / 108 SpD / 87 Spe (545 BST) (332.4 BSR)




My main question for these submissions are twofold: the first is universal, so it applies to every submission in this grouping.

How will we dismantle Zapdos once we lure it in?

This seems pretty difficult when you are slower, so I am curious to hear the answers to this.

The second is more specific to those with more than 135 or so attack:

Does your Attack stat severely interfere with the ability of CAP 23's counters to actually counter it?

For instance, if Adamant CB or Ghostium Z CAP 23 can 2HKO 252/136 Celesteela with just Spirit Shackle/Never-Ending Nightmare, this could be an major issue.




Fast-Bulky-Dangerous (Highly Optimized / Very Powerful) (Comparisons: Garchomp, Keldeo)


Victor S. Court: HP 98 / Atk 135 / 80 Def / 47 SpA / 110 SpD / 101 Spe (571 BST), (334.14 BSR)

Ander228: 80 HP / 135 Atk / 90 Def / 40 SpA / 130 SpD / 101 Spe (576 BST) (331.54 BSR)

These stats are probably some of the most "optimal" in terms of power allowed under the stat limits (Shasimo's is also incredibly powerful, but the 92 speed tier is a pretty far cry from 101). Each has slightly more than 570 BST, which is legal, yet more than any CAP other than Aurumoth(!). Krilowatt and Necturna have 570, so the difference is not so extreme as to be disqualifying in my mind, however. These stats are good enough that the main question then becomes,

What factors would keep CAP 23 balanced with this stat spread?

I question whether a Pokemon that already has strong offensive and defensive qualities on the basis of typing needs to be riding the upper limits of allowed power, hitting a stat limit that is on par with Keldeo and Zapdos.


Fast Speed (>100), Strong Attack, Good Bulk (Somewhat Optimized / Powerful) (Comparisons: Krilowatt, Kitsunoh)

Blackdrakon30: 84 HP / 120 Atk / 92 Def / 64 SpA / 100 SpD / 102 Spe (562 BST) (307.49 BSR)

Deck Knight: 82 HP / 127 Atk / 93 Def / 56 SpA / 85 SpD / 107 Spe (550 BST) (303.25 BSR)

Korski: 94 HP / 126 Atk / 65 Def / 65 SpA / 94 SpD / 106 Spe (550 BST) (306.7 BSR)

NV: 84 HP / 133 Atk / 71 Def / 51 SpA / 111 SpD / 101 Spe (551 BST) (309.05 BSR)

I like that each of these spreads have some clear weakness, though I don't really understand what Pokemon a physically defensive version gains the ability to switch into as opposed to specially defensive. Volkraken in particular is a relevant threat CAP 23 should at least check, and the numbers involved with Volkraken usually put STank at a premium.

What major threats would your stat spread allow CAP 23 to hard check/counter?

For the record, I think I like NV's submission the most of the ones we have so far, though there are others I like as well.


Very Fast Speed (120), Strong Attack, Fragile (True Offensive Pokemon) (Comparisons: Greninja, Tapu Koko)

jas61292: 80 HP / 123 Atk / 85 Def / 62 SpA / 65 SpD / 120 Spe (535 BST) (289.18 BSR)

I like almost every point that you have raised so far in the thread, especially the issue of exactly how we will attract the Pokemon we want to lure to begin with. I also like the overall direction of these stats, since they give bulky pivots very clear motivation to come in.


Finally, I have to point out that NumberCruncher 's submission is illegal, since the total BSR is over the BSR limit found in the OP. In addition, while technically it is legal to submit spreads over 600 BST, the optics are terrible and it sets a bad precedent, so I will not be slating submissions of >600 BST.











 
Obviously I am making a submission myself, and so I will go more into this there, but I think people have become so focused on beating the things we want to threaten that we have lost sight of the actual concept: trapping. Our goal is not to just beat these Pokemon because they are good Pokemon. Our goal it to make it so that there are certain Pokemon who will be enticed to switch in, but have the potential to be beaten, depending on our set, and then for us to take advantage of the fact that we trap them by preventing them from switching out after our set is revealed. Obviously, being able to beat these Pokemon in the first place is important, but... if they are not going to switch into us in order to be trapped, then the fact that we beat them is frankly irrelevant to our concept. As is, our chosen targets have very little reason to actually switch in, and I would like to challenge other submitters to actually show, not how we kill them, but why they would risk giving us that chance.

A trapper built to trap things that it will never have the opportunity to trap is just going to play like a normal offensive Pokemon. That is something we absolutely need to avoid.
I have disagree here, I think the key to make our target switch into us is coverage, walls like Tomohawk or Pyroak don't really need to deal a lot of damage back, because as long as you can't KO them, they will slowly worn you down, so trying to lure them with low defenses is pointless, because when they switch in, they don't care if they deal 50% or 10% damage to us, the only thing that matters is whether they can wall us or not. For example, against AV Colossoil or Tyranitar, Tomohawk is probably the best switch in in the metagame, despite the fact that it usually carries only a weak Air Slash that can barely scratch them, and really, this is true for most walls. The only thing that I believe will truly determine if our targets will ever try to switch into us is going to be our coverage, and we'll have to wait until stats are over to get into that.

Now, let's change topic to speed. I think that less than 100 is enough to do our job, the only target that would manage to outspeed us is Zapdos, and I don't think that's much of a problem, because there would still be plenty of options to beat it, Ground coverage would prevent it from using Roost, Subzero Slammer or Continental Crush can OHKO from full health, even simply using Toxic will most likely let us beat it 1v1. Instead by giving it too much speed, we switch our focus from dismantling walls to beating more offensive threats, and like Shasimo pointed out, a lot of them (Lele, Zygarde, DD Naviathan, M-Gardevoir, Colossoil) are under the 100 Spe benchmark, and I think beating all of them will do more harm than good.

Finally, for reachzero questions

How will we dismantle Zapdos once we lure it in?

^See second paragraph

Does your Attack stat severely interfere with the ability of CAP 23's counters to actually counter it?

I though about this point when I was making my submission, and this is why I made it so that our counters will always have a way to 2HKO CAP23 and gave it a high HP stat to accentuate our weakness to Ferrothorn and Celesteela. These two can also nullify our Z-Moves by using Protect, so I think that even with a high Attack they will still be solid counters to CAP23
 
Middling Speed (<100), Overwhelming Attack (Comparisons: Kyurem-B, Volkraken)

mxmts: 100 HP/138 Atk/55 Def/55 SpA/110 SpD/92 Spe (550 BST) (301.20 BSR)

Shasimo: 86 HP / 146 Atk / 86 Def / 57 SpA / 122 SpD / 92 Spe (589 BST) (334.40 BSR)

david0895: 84 HP / 130 Atk / 93 Def / 51 SpA / 101 SpD / 96 Spe (565 BST) (305.16 BSR)

Garbagery: 95 HP / 130 Atk / 90 Def/65 SpA / 95 SpD / 95 Spe (575 BST) (321.93 BSR)

Kyubics: 90 HP / 127 Atk / 78 Def / 58 SpA / 116 SpD / 96 Spe (565 BST) (315.96 BSR)

Exploudit: 79 HP / 139 Atk / 79 Def / 67 SpA / 109 SpD / 97 Spe (570 BST) (316.63 BSR)

NumberCruncher: 76 HP / 139 Atk / 96 Def / 60 SpA / 141 SpD / 93 Spe (605 BST) (341.9 BSR) --Illegal

Rifou88: 76 HP / 124 Atk / 88 Def / 60 SpA / 120 SpD / 93 Spe (541 BST) (306 BSR)
Mr Holiday: 108 HP / 137 Atk / 63 Def / 42 SpA / 108 SpD / 87 Spe (545 BST) (332.4 BSR)



My main question for these submissions are twofold: the first is universal, so it applies to every submission in this grouping.
How will we dismantle Zapdos once we lure it in?

This seems pretty difficult when you are slower, so I am curious to hear the answers to this.
Actually, for my submission Zapdos is a little tougher, but unboosted Outrage can 2HKO after rocks, and Spirit Shackle into Z-Outrage has like a 90% chance to OHKO without Stealth Rock so I think it is a great Zapdos awnser :)
The second is more specific to those with more than 135 or so attack:

Does your Attack stat severely interfere with the ability of CAP 23's counters to actually counter it?

For instance, if Adamant CB or Ghostium Z CAP 23 can 2HKO 252/136 Celesteela with just Spirit Shackle/Never-Ending Nightmare, this could be an major issue.
252+ Atk Choice Band CAP Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 178-210 (44.7 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Nope, pretty much all counters remain counters for my submission, only Fini being the exception. Adamant CB does 2HKO and so does Ghostium Z. But other sets still miss the 2HKO as Fini 2HKO's with Moonblast. But lowering the Attack more than this leaves CAP unable to pressure Zapdos, so I think its fine.

I really do like the questions though, I really like constructive criticism :)
 

david0895

Mercy Main Btw
How will we dismantle Zapdos once we lure it in?

Ice or Rock coverage can help us really really weally in this job:

252 Atk Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 106-126 (27.6 - 32.8%) -- 81.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 316-374 (82.5 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Subzero Slammer (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 282-334 (73.6 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Even the Life Orb set can work, but it prefers a Stealth Rock support

252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 138-164 (36 - 42.8%) -- 95.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 231-273 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 195-231 (50.9 - 60.3%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
How will we dismantle Zapdos once we lure it in?

(Giratina is standing in for CAP23, with an Adament nature, Comatose Ability, no items, my currant WIP stat spread, and moves I thought would be likely based on what's been mentioned thus far and precedence of past CAPs)

252+ Atk Giratina Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 202-238 (52.7 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Giratina Outrage vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 181-214 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Giratina Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 121-144 (31.5 - 37.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Giratina Psychic Fangs vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 86-102 (22.4 - 26.6%) -- 97.2% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Giratina Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Zapdos: 282-334 (73.6 - 87.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Giratina Outrage vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Zapdos: 255-300 (66.5 - 78.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Giratina Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Zapdos: 169-201 (44.1 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Giratina Psychic Fangs vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Zapdos: 120-142 (31.3 - 37%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Giratina: 100-118 (27.9 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Giratina: 49-58 (13.6 - 16.2%) -- possible 7HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Giratina: 39-46 (10.8 - 12.8%) -- possible 8HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Giratina: 100-118 (27.9 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Giratina: 49-58 (13.6 - 16.2%) -- possible 7HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Giratina: 39-46 (10.8 - 12.8%) -- possible 8HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 78-94 (21.7 - 26.2%) -- 8.6% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 39-47 (10.8 - 13.1%) -- possible 8HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 31-37 (8.6 - 10.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever

With this spread, and a decent competitive move pool, CAP23 has no excuse to not murder any Zapdos it successfully traps. Even the bulkiest Zapdos set commonly run is destroyed by two hits of Stone Edge or Outrage, and that's not taking into account the damage inflicted by our trapping move of choice or the passive damage from being trapped. Sure, Zapdos can Roost the damage away, but every turn it spends Roosting is a turn it's not pitifully fighting for it's life in the futile hope of bringing CAP23 down before it's inevitable demise. The best Zapdos can do is hope to kill CAP23 with HP Ice, but doing so would require CAP23 to use it's weakest moves against Zapdos. Also worth noting, CAP23 with this stat spread and fully invested Speed (273) actually outspeeds the most common defensive Zapdos spread (241). Obviously, not all Zapdos one encounters will be defensive, but this does mean that Zapdos is by no means guaranteed to outspeed CAP23 with this spread.


Does your Attack stat severely interfere with the ability of CAP 23's counters to actually counter it?

252+ Atk Choice Band Giratina Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 151-178 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Leech Seed recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Giratina Outrage vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 113-133 (32.1 - 37.7%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Leech Seed recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Giratina Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 62-74 (17.6 - 21%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Choice Band Giratina Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 53-63 (15 - 17.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 Atk Ferrothorn Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Giratina: 192-228 (53.6 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leech Seed damage
0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Giratina: 89-105 (24.8 - 29.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leech Seed damage

252+ Atk Choice Band Giratina Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 175-207 (43.9 - 52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Leech Seed recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Giratina Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 147-173 (36.9 - 43.4%) -- 34.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Leech Seed recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Giratina Outrage vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 131-155 (32.9 - 38.9%) -- 91.2% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Leech Seed recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Giratina Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 62-73 (15.5 - 18.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (40 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Giratina: 64-76 (17.8 - 21.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leech Seed damage
0 SpA Celesteela Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Giratina: 32-38 (8.9 - 10.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leech Seed damage

252+ Atk Choice Band Giratina Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 127-151 (38.1 - 45.3%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Giratina Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 107-126 (32.1 - 37.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Giratina Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 96-113 (28.8 - 33.9%) -- 99.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Giratina Psychic Fangs vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 45-53 (13.5 - 15.9%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock
0- Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Giratina: 141-166 (39.3 - 46.3%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
0- Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Giratina: 141-166 (39.3 - 46.3%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after 2 layers of Spikes

252+ Atk Giratina Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 169-201 (50.7 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Giratina Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 234-276 (58.7 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Leech Seed recovery
252+ Atk Giratina Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 201-237 (57.1 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Leech Seed recovery

I honestly don't think our attack stat is going to impede our counters to much. Ferrothorn has very little to fear from CAP23, as it can shrug off most of CAP23s hits, and 2-3HKO with Knockoff and Powerwhip. Celasteela and Skarmory have a bit more trouble, but with some previous damage and a bit of entry hazard support (both of which are likely with a defensive play style), they should be able to handle CAP23 without to much difficulty. Never-Ending Nightmare is a problem for all three, but it's a one time use move, which all three pokemon have the ability to recover from in time. Skarmory in particular can Roost the damage off, or predict NEN and Protect to negate the damage completely. I'll admit, these three could counter CAP23 more strongly, and a lower attack stat on CAP23 would likely go a long way towards helping that, but I do believe that CAP23's counters can stop CAP23 with proper support and a bit of prediction. It may not be an easy fight, but I do think it's more than doable.

EDIT: Fixed a typo.
 
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S. Court

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What factors would keep CAP 23 balanced with this stat spread?

Even when 101 of speed is good, it has several troubles keeping the pace against more offensive teams: threats like most Magearna sets, both Greninja forms, Tapu Koko, Scarf Lele and more offensive oriented pivots like Colossoil, Tornadus-T, Krilowatt, Crucibelle and others can pressure us via chip damage (or direct SE coverage in Krilowatt, Tapu Koko and Greninja's cases) without mentioning offensive mons like Garchomp, Latios or Kitsunoh can pressure CAP23 properly. In general, offensive pivoting will put enough pressure to CAP23 to keep it checked in those match-ups

Second, even when we can take down our intended targets, CAP23 can't take all down at same time with the same set. It's really coverage reliant and its 4MSS will cause its downfall. You'll need both STABS, leaving you with two moveslots for Brave Bird, Psychic Fangs, Stone Edge and Icicle Crash to work, even at the point you could need Z-Moves to make it work properly. Without the proper tools, some targets will be able to wall it without the proper coverage.
 

G-Luke

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How will we dismantle Zapdos once we lure it in?

(Giratina is standing in for CAP23, with an Adament nature, Comatose Ability, no items, my currant WIP stat spread, and moves I thought would be likely based on what's been mentioned thus far and precedence of past CAPs)

252+ Atk Giratina Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 202-238 (52.7 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Giratina Outrage vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 181-214 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Giratina Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 121-144 (31.5 - 37.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Giratina Psychic Fangs vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 86-102 (22.4 - 26.6%) -- 97.2% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Giratina Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Zapdos: 282-334 (73.6 - 87.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Giratina Outrage vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Zapdos: 255-300 (66.5 - 78.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Giratina Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Zapdos: 169-201 (44.1 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Giratina Psychic Fangs vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Zapdos: 120-142 (31.3 - 37%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Giratina: 100-118 (27.9 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Giratina: 49-58 (13.6 - 16.2%) -- possible 7HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Giratina: 39-46 (10.8 - 12.8%) -- possible 8HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Giratina: 100-118 (27.9 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Giratina: 49-58 (13.6 - 16.2%) -- possible 7HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Giratina: 39-46 (10.8 - 12.8%) -- possible 8HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 78-94 (21.7 - 26.2%) -- 8.6% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 39-47 (10.8 - 13.1%) -- possible 8HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 31-37 (8.6 - 10.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever

With this spread, and a decent competitive move pool, CAP23 has no excuse to not murder any Zapdos it successfully traps. Even the bulkiest Zapdos set commonly run is destroyed by two hits of Stone Edge or Outrage, and that's not taking into account the damage inflicted by our trapping move of choice or the passive damage from being trapped. Sure, Zapdos can Roost the damage away, but every turn it spends Roosting is a turn it's not pitifully fighting for it's life in the futile hope of bringing CAP23 down before it's inevitable demise. The best Zapdos can do is hope to kill CAP23 with HP Ice, but doing so would require CAP23 to use it's weakest moves against Zapdos. Also worth noting, CAP23 with this stat spread and fully invested Speed (273) actually outspeeds the most common defensive Zapdos spread (241). Obviously, not all Zapdos one encounters will be defensive, but this does mean that Zapdos is by no means guaranteed to outspeed CAP23 with this spread.


Does your Attack stat severely interfere with the ability of CAP 23's counters to actually counter it?

252+ Atk Choice Band Giratina Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 151-178 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Leech Seed recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Giratina Outrage vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 113-133 (32.1 - 37.7%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Leech Seed recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Giratina Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 62-74 (17.6 - 21%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Choice Band Giratina Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 53-63 (15 - 17.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 Atk Ferrothorn Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Giratina: 192-228 (53.6 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leech Seed damage
0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Giratina: 89-105 (24.8 - 29.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leech Seed damage

252+ Atk Choice Band Giratina Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 175-207 (43.9 - 52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Leech Seed recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Giratina Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 147-173 (36.9 - 43.4%) -- 34.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Leech Seed recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Giratina Outrage vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 131-155 (32.9 - 38.9%) -- 91.2% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Leech Seed recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Giratina Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 62-73 (15.5 - 18.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (40 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Giratina: 64-76 (17.8 - 21.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leech Seed damage
0 SpA Celesteela Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Giratina: 32-38 (8.9 - 10.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leech Seed damage

252+ Atk Choice Band Giratina Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 127-151 (38.1 - 45.3%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Giratina Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 107-126 (32.1 - 37.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Giratina Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 96-113 (28.8 - 33.9%) -- 99.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Giratina Psychic Fangs vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 45-53 (13.5 - 15.9%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock
0- Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Giratina: 141-166 (39.3 - 46.3%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
0- Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Giratina: 141-166 (39.3 - 46.3%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after 2 layers of Spikes

252+ Atk Giratina Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 169-201 (50.7 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Giratina Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 234-276 (58.7 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Leech Seed recovery
252+ Atk Giratina Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 201-237 (57.1 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Leech Seed recovery

I honestly don't think our attack stat is going to impede our counters to much. Ferrothorn has very little to fear from CAP23, as it can shrug off most of CAP23s hits, and 2-3HKO with Knockoff and Powerwhip. Celasteela and Skarmory have a bit more trouble, but with some previous damage and a bit of entry hazard support (both of which are likely with a defensive play style), they should be able to handle CAP23 without to much difficulty. Never-Ending Nightmare is a problem for all three, but it's a one time use move, which all three pokemon have the ability to recover from in time. Skarmory in particular can Roost the damage off, or predict NEN and Protect to negate the damage completely. I'll admit, these three could counter CAP23 more strongly, and a lower attack stat on CAP23 would likely go a long way towards helping that, but I don believe that CAP23's counters can stop CAP23 with proper support and a bit of prediction. It may not be an easy fight, but I do think it's more than doable.
While Skarmory can Whirlwind it away, SD + Never Ending Nightmare can be quite threatening for Celesteela.
 

reachzero

the pastor of disaster
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With this spread, and a decent competitive move pool, CAP23 has no excuse to not murder any Zapdos it successfully traps. Even the bulkiest Zapdos set commonly run is destroyed by two hits of Stone Edge or Outrage, and that's not taking into account the damage inflicted by our trapping move of choice or the passive damage from being trapped. Sure, Zapdos can Roost the damage away, but every turn it spends Roosting is a turn it's not pitifully fighting for it's life in the futile hope of bringing CAP23 down before it's inevitable demise. The best Zapdos can do is hope to kill CAP23 with HP Ice, but doing so would require CAP23 to use it's weakest moves against Zapdos. Also worth noting, CAP23 with this stat spread and fully invested Speed (273) actually outspeeds the most common defensive Zapdos spread (241). Obviously, not all Zapdos one encounters will be defensive, but this does mean that Zapdos is by no means guaranteed to outspeed CAP23 with this spread.
The calcs you gave are pretty insane, so much so that it's pretty clear that even with no specialized coverage, Zapdos can never win that matchup without CAP 23 having first taken considerable prior damage. That is a very bad thing, considering that Zapdos is one of the very few things left we could still conceivably lure (status immunity means stuff like Toxapex and Pyroak will never be lured because they literally cannot hurt us enough to be worth switching in). I have to run more calcs to see where the numbers break, but automatically beating Zapdos is a very undesirable outcome, since that would spell the end of just about everything we decided to lure in the Threats and Counters phase.

Exploudit , when you factor in Stealth Rock, 44.7 - 52.7% is a 2HKO a lot of the time, and even when it isn't, that still leaves Celesteela basically dead.

G-Luke , Swords Dance is not a factor during this stage. If a particular spread is not compatible with boosting moves, we'll deal with that during the movepool stage.
 
Exploudit , when you factor in Stealth Rock, 44.7 - 52.7% is a 2HKO a lot of the time, and even when it isn't, that still leaves Celesteela basically dead.
I guess you are correct, but I don't really think further lowering its Attack stat is a smart move, since it would leave CAP unable to properly address most of the stuff it should beat. I don't have the calcs rn as I'm on my phone, but I'm not sure if lowering Attack is a smart option.
 
Finally, I have to point out that NumberCruncher 's submission is illegal, since the total BSR is over the BSR limit found in the OP. In addition, while technically it is legal to submit spreads over 600 BST, the optics are terrible and it sets a bad precedent, so I will not be slating submissions of >600 BST.
Sorry. It was late and I misread the BSR. It should be fixed now.

How will we dismantle Zapdos once we lure it in?

This seems pretty difficult when you are slower, so I am curious to hear the answers to this.

The second is more specific to those with more than 135 or so attack:

Does your Attack stat severely interfere with the ability of CAP 23's counters to actually counter it?

For instance, if Adamant CB or Ghostium Z CAP 23 can 2HKO 252/136 Celesteela with just Spirit Shackle/Never-Ending Nightmare, this could be an major issue.

To your first question, my plan for that is to just run Toxic. None of our checks that mind a Toxic are slower than us, and it makes Tomohawk and Zapdos much more manageable even without coverage for them. Spirit Shackles on the Switch-in into Toxic and spam Outrage actually ruins Defensive Zapdos's day, and because there is a reasonable expectation that CAP might not run Toxic, that's actually a reasonable trap.

For the second, the only issue is Fini, where CB or Ghostium Z can actually be used for a 2HKO. However, more recently Tapu Fini has been running a Modest Set on the CAP ladder to put actual pressure on the Fighting types in the tier, and the Modest set actually chunks CAP pretty bad.

252+ SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Giratina: 242-288 (82.5 - 98.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

So there's a reasonable expectation that if we can't keep Rocks off, we won't actually get to attack it twice.
 

david0895

Mercy Main Btw
Finally I finished my calc list, so I can say my opinion about speed:

I don't think that we need to outspeed Volcarona and Zapdos since CAP23 resists to all their moves (except HP Ice), also since Krilowatt has Ice Beam, it should't be on the "target and pressure" list. Also Garchomp and Charizard X needs to stay in the list and outspeeding them is not good.
That's why I think CAP23 should have a speed in the range from 92 (Landorus-T) to 100
 
The calcs you gave are pretty insane, so much so that it's pretty clear that even with no specialized coverage, Zapdos can never win that matchup without CAP 23 having first taken considerable prior damage. That is a very bad thing, considering that Zapdos is one of the very few things left we could still conceivably lure (status immunity means stuff like Toxapex and Pyroak will never be lured because they literally cannot hurt us enough to be worth switching in). I have to run more calcs to see where the numbers break, but automatically beating Zapdos is a very undesirable outcome, since that would spell the end of just about everything we decided to lure in the Threats and Counters phase.
I'm strongly against this philosophy. Not only because I dont agree with it but because it is extremely theoretically and it doesnt take into acount the situation in a real battle. If I understand well what you mean, you want that CAP23 is able to attract its targets to trap them easier. That's why you are reluctant against the idea of giving a high stat Attack, because you think that it will be scary for the opponent to send his walls if we are able to beat them. It's a weird and a bad way to think about the place that will have CAP23 in the meta in my opinion.

The first thing I have to say, the only way that the opponent sends systematically the targets list against CAP23 is that the targets list become the counters list, which is totally anticoncept and I dont think you want this. In all other situations, it will depend on the match-up and it is simply conjectures to conclude that our targets will be never send. If the foe gets M-Scizor, Celeestela, Ferrothorn or Tapu Fini, we are nearly sure that it gonna send one of them, be it my stats or these of jaz. Otherwise we dont know and we cannot guess.

And dont say "We will lure our targets !" because it doesnt mean anything concrete. A lure only lasts one week, after it becomes the main set or an option to the main set and it's no longer a lure. And if you really want a lure why do you want to take a mon which only can bring only one role ?

Why Heatran is a so effective trapper and stallbreaker in OU ? Not because it lures stall in attracting them, Magma Storm is played one time on two in high ladder. It's not because heatran is so fast than it threats its checks, Heatran gets 77 in speed and the scarf version is rarely used and bad against stall. It's not either because Heatran is so frail than stallers comes on it to kill it easily.

So why heatran is so good to deal with stalls ? I will tell you, because heatran is versatile and powerful. Just give me the name of one Pokemon in OU that heatran cannot do anything against. It doesn't exist. Stealth Rocks/Magma Storm/Toxik/Taunt/Earth Power/Substitute/Lava Plume/Protect/Z-Solar Beam/Ancient Power/Stone Edge/Fire Blast/ Flash cannon. This Pokémon doesnt have real counter, neither offensive mons nor defensive one like to switch into. And Heatran is customisable according to your team. It doesn't need to attract because nothing wants to come in.

It is the difference which opposes me and jas. I think our spreads represent well two visions completely opposed of CAP23.

Mine : 86 HP / 146 Atk / 86 Def / 57 SpA / 122 SpD / 92 Spe
Jas : 80 HP / 123 Atk / 85 Def / 62 SpA / 65 SpD / 120 Spe

Jas try to threat our checks and do not be too strong for the walls have a greater chance to come on the board. Like he said yesterday on the room, its CAP is a bit a Weavile.
For my part, I tried to make it really versatile. The offensive stat privilegies a powerful attacker with Z-Move of course but it's possible to turn it into a scarfer or a bulky mon. I don't try to attract stallers because I know that, except counters, nobody wants to switch into me. The opponent will be able to identify my set and decide which mons in the team he will let to be trapkill according to the match up. I think it's a clever way to explore to get a funny game with skill and anticipations.

Now, there is the question "Is a high attack stat a major issue/broken because if you take a Adamant set instead of the classical Jolly set with the Z-move on Spirit Shackle instead of your coverage move or Outrage to lure and if the opponent doesn't do Protect and Leech seed on this Celeestela, it can be 2HKO or 3HKO and it is on our counterlist ?".

I could answer to that in saying that there is absolutely no reason to run Adamant except to beat perfectly Tomohawk and we will use Z-Brave Bird and not Z-Spirit shackle and it's very risky because we are outspeeded by Landorus-T who hits very hard with Z-Fly and it's a S rank mon and it's very common. I could also say that there is no reason either to run Z-Spirit Shackle when you have an other coverage move much more binding like Outrage and it will be like run Z-Extreme Speed on Zygarde DD instead of Z-Outrage to beat easier Tapu bulu, which is indeed possible in theory but it never happens in practise. I could finally say that it happens only if we anticipate like a god that the opponent won't do protect for a weird reason... But I won't tell you that.

I will tell you however that the targets/check/counterlist is not a sacred text wrotten by Arceus. Actually, no one respect perfectly this list because it is perfecty impossible to follow it at 100%. Some ignore totally the list of checks, others are unable to dismantle Tomo, Pyroak, Toxapex, etc and finally there are those like me who, in a really weird and unnatural situation, are able to deal with a counter.

The utiliy of the list is to give to CAP23 a context and to fix what will be its job and what it won't do. We have to respect it globally to stay coherent with the duty of trapper but not follow it fanatically. Not because I do not like it but it doesn't make any sense. The counterlist prevents CAP23 to be broken. Do you really fear that the set Adamant Z-Spirit Shackle with 92 bst Speed against a opponent who plays Celeestela strangly will make CAP23 broken in a meta where Zygarde, Magearna, Mawile_mega, Ash-Greninja and Lando-T are everywhere ? Honnestly ? I agree that we have to avoid these situations but you know, just put a life orb on a bst 60 SpA and the mon is able to 2HKO M-Scizor max HP with only HP Fire. Is it a "major issue" ? Absolutely not, it will never play... Except to lure :)

0 SpA Life Orb Haxorus Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Scizor-Mega: 151-182 (44 - 53%) -- 23.4% chance to 2HKO

I don't have the time to read back my text, sorry for the possible mistakes !
 
Last edited:

Drapionswing

Eating it up, YUMMY!
is a CAP Contributor Alumnus
WIP

120/135/64/40/105/101

PT: 122.4
ST: 198.4
PS: 211.7
SS: 73.6
BSR: 334.8

First off I'd like to explain why I chose 101 speed. 101 Speed allows us to outspeed 252 speed Zapdos and hit it with coverage or stab (Will post example in calcs later) after being trapped leading to a KO. 101 speed also allows us to switch into Charizard-Mega-Y and threaten it out right after, this is important given the current ST doesn't allow for us to comfortably come in on Charizard. I'm expecting this pokemon to get chipped pretty hard, and if that does turn out to be the case then Being able to scare Char Y in a 1v1 is nice. Outspeeding Tapu Lele, is important as this limits Lele's ability to check us to Scarf sets, allowing for revenge killing however I feel that Lele's psychic typing should leave it vulnerable to Cap23 otherwise.

252 Atk Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 76-90 (25 - 29.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 224-264 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(EQ)

252 Atk Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 111-132 (27.4 - 32.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 350-414 (86.6 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO(Brave Bird)
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Supersonic Skystrike (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 294-348 (72.7 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(Drill Peck)
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 144-172 (35.6 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 289-341 (71.5 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (266, 269, 271, 276, 278, 281, 286, 288, 290, 295, 298, 300, 305, 307, 310, 314)

252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arghonaut: 133-156 (32.1 - 37.6%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arghonaut: 263-309 (63.5 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arghonaut: 102-120 (24.6 - 28.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arghonaut: 316-374 (76.3 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Arghonaut Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Giratina-Origin: 170-200 (44.6 - 52.4%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 94-112 (21.2 - 25.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 296-350 (66.8 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 188-222 (42.4 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Pyroak Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Giratina-Origin: 39-47 (10.2 - 12.3%) -- possible 9HKO
0 SpA Pyroak Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Giratina-Origin: 60-71 (15.7 - 18.6%) -- possible 6HKO

252 Atk Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mollux: 157-186 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Outrage vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mollux: 235-277 (59.6 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mollux: 260-308 (65.9 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 Atk Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 105-124 (28.9 - 34.1%) -- 2.5% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 330-390 (90.9 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 247-292 (68 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 112-133 (31.1 - 37%) -- 79% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 267-315 (74.3 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 356-420 (99.1 - 116.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Zapdos: 153-181 (39.9 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Outrage vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Zapdos: 229-270 (59.7 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Zapdos: 256-302 (66.8 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Giratina-Origin in Sun: 150-177 (39.3 - 46.4%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 165-195 (55.5 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 246-291 (82.8 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Volkraken Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Giratina-Origin: 89-105 (23.3 - 27.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Analytic Volkraken Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Giratina-Origin: 115-136 (30.1 - 35.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volkraken Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Giratina-Origin: 145-171 (38 - 44.8%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Volkraken Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Giratina-Origin: 189-223 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Volkraken Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Giratina-Origin in Rain: 284-335 (74.5 - 87.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volkraken: 211-250 (61.6 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volkraken: 354-416 (103.5 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volkraken: 316-372 (92.3 - 108.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volkraken: 243-286 (71 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volkraken: 354-416 (103.5 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volkraken: 272-320 (79.5 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Giratina-Origin: 86-102 (22.5 - 26.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Giratina-Origin: 128-151 (33.5 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Giratina-Origin: 172-204 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 191-226 (59.1 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 286-339 (88.5 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 294-348 (91 - 107.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

+1 252 SpA Volcarona Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Giratina-Origin: 223-263 (58.5 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Giratina-Origin: 282-332 (74 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 288-339 (92.6 - 109%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 192-226 (61.7 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Will add more calcs later
 
reachzero said:
The calcs you gave are pretty insane, so much so that it's pretty clear that even with no specialized coverage, Zapdos can never win that matchup without CAP 23 having first taken considerable prior damage. That is a very bad thing, considering that Zapdos is one of the very few things left we could still conceivably lure (status immunity means stuff like Toxapex and Pyroak will never be lured because they literally cannot hurt us enough to be worth switching in). I have to run more calcs to see where the numbers break, but automatically beating Zapdos is a very undesirable outcome, since that would spell the end of just about everything we decided to lure in the Threats and Counters phase.
I'm sorry, maybe it's my lack of competitive experience, or that I havn't participated in many CAPs, but this sentiment is rather confusing for me. Perhaps I read something wrong, but I thought our goal was to "trap and dismantle" Zapdos, along with the other Pokemon mentioned in the threats list. You yourself asked "How will we dismantle Zapdos once we lure it in?" My answer to you is, "Quite handily". We're tasked with building a stat spread that can destroy Zapdos, Toxapex, Tangrowth, Arghonaut, etc, etc,. This spread will do it. Now, I'll be the first person to admit, I don't know why anyone would willingly switch these things into a Pokemon that was born to kill them. I have to agree with Shasimo on this point: After about the first week of playtesting, nobody is going to bring anything on the "target and dismantle" list within twenty feet of CAP23. If we make CAP23 weak enough for them to feel safe switching in, then we won't be able to reliably remove them. If we make it strong enough to do it's job, they won't switch in. So, how do we lure them in? Maybe we use some creative switching and prediction? Maybe we give it other abilities so it's not guaranteed to be immune to status? Maybe we give it shitty moves? I don't have a good answer for you. But I do know that this spread can and will reliably kill pretty much anything on our little hit list. If that's not what we're looking for, than I must have misread something somewhere, in which case I apologize.

In short, I thought our goal was to lure and kill bulky stallers. If I'm wrong, than I guess it's back to the drawing board for me. If you're worried about not being able to lure in a bulky staller, then maybe we shouldn't have made CAP23 immune to bulky stallers. I honestly don't know what else to tell you.
 
I'm sorry, maybe it's my lack of competitive experience, or that I havn't participated in many CAPs, but this sentiment is rather confusing for me. Perhaps I read something wrong, but I thought our goal was to "trap and dismantle" Zapdos, along with the other Pokemon mentioned in the threats list. You yourself asked "How will we dismantle Zapdos once we lure it in?" My answer to you is, "Quite handily". We're tasked with building a stat spread that can destroy Zapdos, Toxapex, Tangrowth, Arghonaut, etc, etc,. This spread will do it. Now, I'll be the first person to admit, I don't know why anyone would willingly switch these things into a Pokemon that was born to kill them. I have to agree with Shasimo on this point: After about the first week of playtesting, nobody is going to bring anything on the "target and dismantle" list within twenty feet of CAP23. If we make CAP23 weak enough for them to feel safe switching in, then we won't be able to reliably remove them. If we make it strong enough to do it's job, they won't switch in. So, how do we lure them in? Maybe we use some creative switching and prediction? Maybe we give it other abilities so it's not guaranteed to be immune to status? Maybe we give it shitty moves? I don't have a good answer for you. But I do know that this spread can and will reliably kill pretty much anything on our little hit list. If that's not what we're looking for, than I must have misread something somewhere, in which case I apologize.

In short, I thought our goal was to lure and kill bulky stallers. If I'm wrong, than I guess it's back to the drawing board for me. If you're worried about not being able to lure in a bulky staller, then maybe we shouldn't have made CAP23 immune to bulky stallers. I honestly don't know what else to tell you.
It's true that we're building CAP23 specifically to destroy walls, however we can't destroy them all in the same set. Tomohawk/Arghonaut/Pyroak need flying coverage, Zapdos should require Rock/Ice/Ground, Toxapex requires Psychic/Ground, etc. In one set, we should be vulnerable to some of our targets, for example if you run Spirit Shackle/Dragon Claw/Stone Edge/Earthquake, you trap and beat Zapdos, Pyroak and Toxapex, but in exchange you lose against Tomohawk and Arghonaut. Just because we are targeting them specifically doesn't mean that we should always beat them.
 
Final Submission

115 HP / 135 Atk / 75 Def / 54 SpA / 85 SpD / 96 Spe (560 BST)

PT: 137.625
ST: 157.746
PS: 197.251
SS: 87.6454
BSR: 317.77608

So the first thing I wanted to do is to beat Tomohawk with my spread. If CAP23 didn't have enough power behind it, it would likely not be able to beat Tomohawk easily. Luckily, 135 attack with Life Orb makes it not that hard once Tomohawk is trapped.

252+ Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 211-250 (50.9 - 60.3%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 192-229 (46.3 - 55.3%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

If you don't want to run Life Orb on this bulkier Pokemon, there's no need to worry! If it's trapped, then Psychium Z does the job too.

252+ Atk Giratina-Origin Shattered Psyche (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 304-358 (73.4 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Giratina-Origin Shattered Psyche (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 278-328 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

As for our other targets, Toxapex rolls over and dies versus us, especially we have the option to avoid Scald burns altogether. Since it does more than 50%, we outpace Recover and take it down so long as it's trapped.

252+ Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 151-179 (49.6 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Giratina-Origin: 28-33 (7.5 - 8.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever

Pyroak is a little tougher to beat, as we need to use Outrage in order to get past it. However, so long as it has taken prior damage (preferably from SR but also Spirit Shackle), it should not be an issue whatsoever.

252+ Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 134-160 (30.2 - 36.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 122-146 (27.5 - 32.9%) -- 83.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 200-238 (45.1 - 53.7%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 183-216 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Mega Venusaur is outsped by us even without investment and takes way too much from Psychic Fangs for it to bounce back.

252+ Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Psychic Fangs vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 213-252 (58.6 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Psychic Fangs vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 192-229 (52.8 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Even though Zapdos outspeeds us, not even HP Ice does anything, and we then trap it with Spirit Shackle. It actually does more than Roost will recover, so we actually have a realitively easy time facing Zapdos.

252+ Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Zapdos: 218-257 (56.9 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Zapdos: 199-235 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Giratina-Origin: 114-136 (30.7 - 36.6%) -- 60.7% chance to 3HKO

Mollux is too easy.

252+ Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mollux: 224-265 (56.8 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mollux: 317-374 (80.4 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Arghonaut is a weird one. You see, Knock Off does a lot and Ice Punch brings you below half health. However, my spread outspeeds it and while it may lose its item, it still has the tools needed to take it down.

252+ Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Arghonaut: 200-238 (49.8 - 59.3%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
220+ Atk Arghonaut Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Giratina-Origin: 256-302 (64.4 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Giratina-Origin Psychic Fangs vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Arghonaut: 218-258 (54.3 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
220+ Atk Arghonaut Ice Punch vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Giratina-Origin: 198-234 (49.8 - 58.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

Tangrowth is the toughest one of them all, sort of. You see, Assault Vest goes down pretty easily...

252+ Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 157-187 (38.8 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Outrage vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 238-281 (58.9 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

However, the only way to handle physically defensive Tangrowth is with Brave Bird.

252+ Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 122-146 (30.2 - 36.2%) -- 50.9% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Psychic Fangs vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 87-103 (21.5 - 25.5%) -- 0.3% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Outrage vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 183-216 (45.4 - 53.5%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 244-289 (60.5 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now you all may be wondering why I went with the high HP approach in terms of bulk. Well, there is one reason and one reason only.
Celesteela.

See, my issue was that CAP23 was simply doing too much to Celesteela with Spirit Shackle, while Celesteela wasn't doing enough back.

252+ Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 152-179 (38.1 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (40 BP) vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Giratina-Origin: 55-66 (13.8 - 16.6%) -- possible 7HKO

Then I remembered it likes to run Leech Seed. With any damage taken, Celesteela can heal back up with Lefies, Leech Seed and Protect. The idea behind the high HP is to maximize the amount Celesteela gets back from Leech Seed, making us do a lot less versus Celesteela, especially considering we essentially attack every other turn. That should eventually force CAP23 out, meaning Celesteela has succesfully countered us.

Now have some calcs for checks.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 104 HP / 152 SpD Giratina-Origin: 356-420 (91.9 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Colossoil Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Giratina-Origin: 632-746 (163.3 - 192.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Colossoil Sucker Punch vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Giratina-Origin: 458-540 (118.3 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Giratina-Origin: 498-588 (128.6 - 151.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Syclant Ice Beam vs. 104 HP / 152 SpD Giratina-Origin: 260-308 (67.1 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (This assumes Syclant is running Focus Sash)
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Outrage vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Giratina-Origin: 680-804 (175.7 - 207.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Giratina-Origin: 422-500 (109 - 129.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
248 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 104 HP / 152 SpD Giratina-Origin: 350-414 (90.4 - 106.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (CAP23 cannot OHKO back so)
252 SpA Life Orb Kerfluffle Moonblast vs. 104 HP / 152 SpD Giratina-Origin: 359-424 (92.7 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
 
Last edited:

nv

The Lost Age
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What major threats would your stat spread allow CAP 23 to hard check/counter?
My stat spread particularly aims to allow CAP23 to pivot into powerful special attacks that it resists, such as Volkraken and Volcarona's STABs, while also being able to trap the things it lures in, particularly defensive walls such as Zapdos. While we don't know what CAP23's movepool is going to be, we do know it's typing and therefore it's resistances that should be taken advantage of. I feel my spread allows CAP23 to have a bit of freedom when we get to the movepool stage to allow moves that lure the things we want to check and counter. While I do agree it is hard to follow the list 100%, I believe the biggest asset, which could also be seen as a downfall, is potentially giving CAP23 4MSS, allowing to always be checked by certain Pokémon if it lacks a certain move; be it Stone Edge for Zapdos or Earthquake for Toxapex. 4MSS can actually work in our favor because it allows CAP23 to fit itself into a team with ease, offering up fantastic resistances, a specially bulky pivot, and be able to lure some, but not all, the things it wants to. 4MSS also helps with the luring factor because CAP23 could eventually even run 2 "luring" moves alongside its STABs rather than potential recovery or a setup move (should it receive either of those). Basically, my spread aims to hard check/soft counter what CAP23 should while also giving it the freedom it may need once we get to the movepool stage, so that we can trap and lure effectively.
For the record, I think I like NV's submission the most of the ones we have so far
Thank you! :)
 
mxmts said:
t's true that we're building CAP23 specifically to destroy walls, however we can't destroy them all in the same set. Tomohawk/Arghonaut/Pyroak need flying coverage, Zapdos should require Rock/Ice/Ground, Toxapex requires Psychic/Ground, etc. In one set, we should be vulnerable to some of our targets, for example if you run Spirit Shackle/Dragon Claw/Stone Edge/Earthquake, you trap and beat Zapdos, Pyroak and Toxapex, but in exchange you lose against Tomohawk and Arghonaut. Just because we are targeting them specifically doesn't mean that we should always beat them.
True. Sorry, I do get kinda rant-y about things without meaning to. I didn't mean to imply that CAP23 should be able to slaughter everything set before it without restriction. I only meant that, in order to do it's job, it needs to have a stat spread that will enable it to deal with the Pokemon on the "target and dismantle" list. Clearly, it would still need to be tailored down to a certain target or set of targets through it's nature, EVs, move set, items, and, if applicable, Ability choice. I was just a bit confused about why being able to kill our targets was a bad thing, and wanted to reiterate that my stat spread (or one like it. I'm not greedy lol) would give CAP23 the ability to do what we want it to do.

Sorry for any confusion.
 
My stat spread particularly aims to allow CAP23 to pivot into powerful special attacks that it resists, such as Volkraken and Volcarona's STABs, while also being able to trap the things it lures in, particularly defensive walls such as Zapdos. While we don't know what CAP23's movepool is going to be, we do know it's typing and therefore it's resistances that should be taken advantage of. I feel my spread allows CAP23 to have a bit of freedom when we get to the movepool stage to allow moves that lure the things we want to check and counter. While I do agree it is hard to follow the list 100%, I believe the biggest asset, which could also be seen as a downfall, is potentially giving CAP23 4MSS, allowing to always be checked by certain Pokémon if it lacks a certain move; be it Stone Edge for Zapdos or Earthquake for Toxapex. 4MSS can actually work in our favor because it allows CAP23 to fit itself into a team with ease, offering up fantastic resistances, a specially bulky pivot, and be able to lure some, but not all, the things it wants to. 4MSS also helps with the luring factor because CAP23 could eventually even run 2 "luring" moves alongside its STABs rather than potential recovery or a setup move (should it receive either of those). Basically, my spread aims to hard check/soft counter what CAP23 should while also giving it the freedom it may need once we get to the movepool stage, so that we can trap and lure effectively.
Thank you! :)
While your spread is my favorite other than my own, Spirit Shackle does plenty to Zapdos, so Stone Edge isn't necessarily required. Also, Psychic Fangs does enough to Thapex so EQ isn't needed either. That said, I really like your spread :)

Also someone please give some feedback on mine I'm lonely
 
May I point out something relevant at no one in particular, but something I feel is worth stating?

Ferrothorn is a check. Not all of them run Leech Seed.

I feel like CAP's speed and physical bulk should be balanced in such a way that Gyro Ball 2HKO's it.

Just a thought.
 

snake

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CAP Co-Leader
May I point out something relevant at no one in particular, but something I feel is worth stating?

Ferrothorn is a check. Not all of them run Leech Seed.

I feel like CAP's speed and physical bulk should be balanced in such a way that Gyro Ball 2HKO's it.

Just a thought.
I'm very skeptical of this. Every Ferrothorn I've ever seen...like ever...has run Leech Seed. Unless its some gimmicky Choice Band set, which doesn't really count.
 
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