CAP 23 CAP 23 - Part 6 - Secondary Ability Discussion

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snake

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I am certain that they are both about the same in power.

252 Atk Life Orb Giratina Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 285-350 (68.8 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Strong Jaw Giratina Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 283-335 (68.3 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

In order for us to effectively outpace Roost, we need to be doing about 83% per turn, as Leftovers + Roost subtracts 56.25 from that damage. As such, we basically 3HKO Tomo. However, there are two main differences with SJ and SL.

1. Strong Jaw Moves makes contact, making us hurt by Rocky Helmet.
2. Strong Jaw uses one move to handle both Tomo and Pex, while Skill Link uses two (Spear n Bone Rush)

Skill Link may use two moves, but even still I think it is a better choice than Strong Jaw. This is because on the one hand, it isn’t effected by Rocky Helmet. On the other hand, running other utility on a trapping set with Skill Link means sacrificing either a multi-hit move or a STAB move. That I think adds a layer of balance to our ability; the Stratagem comparison works well here. There also is room for a full-on Skill Link abuse set, meaning we get the diversity in sets that we wanted. All in all, Skill Link FTW
You forget that Roost removes Flying typing for the turn, making Icicle Spear no longer supereffective, which means it doesn't crack open Tomohawk.

On Roost turn:
252 Atk Life Orb Giratina-Origin Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 145-175 (35 - 42.2%) -- approx. 87.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
Can i suggest shed skin for those iffy about early bird being too op. The main use of having another abilty and NCA IS a rest set. Shed skin provides us with a chance of quicker rests without the side affect of needing to be ohko’d or 2hkod to die(provided ur not the luckiest person alive)
 
Sheer Force removed the trapping effect of Spirit Shackle, so that's as anticoncept as they get. It was clearly shot down very early in primary ability discussion for this reason so I don't see why you brought it up again.
One of the discussions during the concept was is there a way to make CAP23 work without the need to run a Trapping Move so that it wasn't forced to run SS/AS or whatever to trap.

I'm not surprised it was flat out 'No' during the primary ability discussion, but given this is the secondary, and it was a secondary point to be able to run a build that could threaten without needing to trap, Sheer Force pretty much entirely makes that relevant and possible.

Of course, with Comatose's given away, that may or may not be such an option any more.

Whether that it is broken or does too much damage should be the point of contention, not whether it fits your narrow band of what the concept was when you choose to ignore one of the concept discussions.
 

reachzero

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I actually think that any ability that allows CAP 23 to use Rest expands its capacity significantly, and those that actually improve Rest actually make it really dangerous. As long as you have Rest, you can customize your EVs to survive specific attacks from slower Pokemon and just Toxic or even PP stall them out as long as they can't 3HKO you. I'm not 100% certain how many Pokemon this would affect, but trapping + Rest is a Pandora's box I'd really rather not open when we can avoid it.
 

david0895

Mercy Main Btw
Sheer Force gives to CAP23 too much power, allowing it to deal with its counters:
*NOTE: I'm using a Ghost type Iron Head because the calculator doesn't boost SS with Sheer Force*

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Giratina Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 129-152 (38.7 - 45.6%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (can recover the damage with Roost, but it can't stall the LO recoil)

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Giratina Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 175-208 (43.9 - 52.2%) -- 77.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Giratina Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Scizor-Mega: 130-153 (37.9 - 44.6%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (can recover the damage with Roost, but it can't stall the LO recoil)

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Giratina Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn: 172-203 (48.8 - 57.6%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Giratina Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 216 Def Tapu Fini: 165-196 (48.1 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


About Strong Jaw calcs:
252 Atk Giratina Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 146-174 (35.2 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Giratina Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 206-244 (49.7 - 58.9%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Strong Jaw Giratina Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 218-258 (52.6 - 62.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Giratina Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 106-126 (34.8 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Giratina Outrage vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 111-132 (36.5 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Strong Jaw Giratina Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 158-186 (51.9 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

252 Atk Giratina Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 156-184 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Strong Jaw Giratina Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 178-210 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Giratina Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 220-260 (54.4 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Giratina Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arghonaut: 198-234 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Giratina Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arghonaut: 278-328 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Strong Jaw Giratina Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arghonaut: 294-348 (71 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Giratina Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mollux: 220-260 (55.8 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Giratina Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mollux: 260-306 (65.9 - 77.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Strong Jaw Giratina Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mollux: 328-386 (83.2 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Giratina Psychic Fangs vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 146-174 (40.2 - 47.9%) -- 59.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Giratina Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 208-246 (57.3 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Strong Jaw Giratina Psychic Fangs vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 220-260 (60.6 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Giratina Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 154-182 (40.2 - 47.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Giratina Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 180-214 (46.9 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Strong Jaw Giratina Ice Fang vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 174-206 (45.4 - 53.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I'm still unsure about this ability, but maybe it could be a good idea... Also I like the Rock Head because it helps CAP23 but doesn't boost nothing
 
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Deck Knight

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Trapping + Rest is one of the chief arguments made during the Concept Assessment as strategies that are strengthened by trapping. The stats we have voted for in no way make us a defensive behemoth except to those Pokemon on our target and dismantle list who have no offensive presence whatsoever.
84/71/111 looks weird but it's basically 85/70/110. We're not even at Sylveon bulk here (95/65/130), Rest is well within acceptable competitive parameters without being overpowered.

Therefore, allowing Rest is to me about as pro-concept as we can get and in fact would have been explored with every ability discussed with the sole exception of Comatose - and Comatose itself was not argued on its merits of incompatibility with Rest, but rather it's strong defense against Status generally.

In fact, the opportunity cost for Rest is at this point both a moveslot and an extremely powerful primary ability. I would personally prefer weaker end of the secondary ability spectrum seeing as I thought Comatose too powerful to begin with- but now that it's here concern over a defensive spread with Rest seems overinflated.
 
Generally speaking, I feel like that IF we do consider a second ability, and because status totally ruins CAP, allowing a potential Rest set is the single best reason to do so. Rest sets are something I considered while theorymoning this CAP I do think it has some potential with our trapping concept.

The merits of a Rest set, IMO, are pairing it with Toxic. Rest+ Toxic+ Spirit Shackle allows us to trap and poison out our entire target list minus the following:

Toxapex
Mollux
Mega Venusaur
Magic Guard/Heal Bell Unaware Clefable
Magenera
U-Turn Landorus
Volt Switch Zapdos

Anchor Shot could work in place of Spirit Shackle to gain coverage over Clefable, with the bonus of being able to trap and poison out Chansey lacking Heal Bell. In any case, optimal potential 4th moves are Psychic, Ice, Steel or Ground attacks.

The glaring problems:

1. Comatose telegraphs itself, so there is no surprise factor. When the opponent first sees CAP not asleep, the opponent can safely assume its second ability.

Give it something like Pressure (for stalling out recovery moves) or Early Bird, you know it's a Rest set. No one will switch anything in but a Steel mon.

Give it something like Tough Claws/Strong Jaw, and grant it the power to break Toxapex without a Z-Move, and CAP's power risks becoming superfluous to the point where CAP becomes a wallbreaker capable of breaking through its checks and doesn't need trap moves at all, breaking with the concept.

2. Rest sets suffer extreme 4mss and predictability, and therefore become very exploitable. This was a large reason why we went with Comatose to begin with; to save a move slot. How easy is it for Magenera or Camadore or Naviathan or Mega Mawile or Mega Crucible to set up on such a set?

---------

Conclusion: The beauty of Comatose is that it's already a versitile ability, both defensively and offensively. Having variety in ability for variety's sake isn't always necessary, and it isn't in this case. Case in point: Heatran. It only has one ability, but has a ton of viable sets, including a lure trap set.

I think CAP's variety will come from a strong, diverse movepoll. Rest doesn't allow CAP to beat anything it can't already. As such, I don't consider it a solid argument for having a second ability and remain in the No Competitive Ability camp.
 
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Deck Knight

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With respect, Rest sets are not predictable at all outside of the move Rest and a trapping move. While Rest/Toxic/Shackle is like to be a common use of 3 slots, the fact is you can just as easily use Rest as as higher risk Roost on a 3 Attacks Life Orb or Z-Move set. If you can trap something that can't 3HKO CAP, you just click Rest, take the hits, or make a safe switch to a cleric and use Aromatherapy / Heal Bell.

Now, this particular strategy only becomes inherently inferior if CAP has some kind of 50% healing move, in absence of that the weakness of a Comatose set is, especially with Life Orb, that it's easy to wear down in exchange for total immunity to status at all times, which is not a bad tradeoff.

Generally I think people have approached this concept with the linear thinking of most other Pokemon or substitued in Heatran. Heatran doesn't have a Magma Storm / Rest set, so why would CAP? And the obvious answer is that CAP is at least assumed to be able to use reliable permanent trapping where Magma Storm is inaccurate partial trapping. Decidueye and Dhelmise have questionable type defense and coverage, CAP doesn't necessarily have those problems. CAP isn't quite as bulky as Heatran but it also doesn't have a glaring 4x weakness or highly undesirable Speed tier.

Taking Magearna for an example, if the opponent sees CAP switches in and doesn't have the Comatose message, they switch Magearna in. Immediately they are Shackled, CAP takes Life Orb damage, and follows up with Earthquake for an immediate KO. Or they could use Spirit Shackle followed by NEN:

252 Atk Decidueye Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Magearna: 118-139 (32.4 - 38.1%) -- 96% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Decidueye Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Magearna: 235-277 (64.5 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

With the exception of the lowest rolls, Shackle + NEN already overwhelms the most defensive common Magearna set with the standard 252 offensive investment on an offensive set.

Assuming CAPs moveset from its ability message would itself become a huge trapping opportunity. We need to think outside the box a little on this project and neither attempt to make a Pokemon that breaks all walls or a Pokemon that is "shackled" to a particular moveset because of its ability choice.
 
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Sheer Force gives to CAP23 too much power, allowing it to deal with its counters:
*NOTE: I'm using a Ghost type Iron Head because the calculator doesn't boost SS with Sheer Force*

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Giratina Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 129-152 (38.7 - 45.6%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (can recover the damage with Roost, but it can't stall the LO recoil)

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Giratina Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 175-208 (43.9 - 52.2%) -- 77.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Giratina Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Scizor-Mega: 130-153 (37.9 - 44.6%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (can recover the damage with Roost, but it can't stall the LO recoil)

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Giratina Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn: 172-203 (48.8 - 57.6%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Giratina Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 216 Def Tapu Fini: 165-196 (48.1 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Whirlwind+Roost, Brave Bird deals more damage. Still a win for Skarm.
Celesteela; make CAP23 400lbs so full power heavy slam kicks off. 252/252/4 defensively, Seed, Toxic, Protect; Switch in, Protect, Seed, Protect, Toxic, Protect, Heavy Slam seems like it should work. It's a 7 Turn KO rolling Max Damage on each Spirit Shackle (Switch, Protect, Seed, Protect, Toxic, Protect, Heavy Slam), which is a guaranteed KO for Celesteela; if leaving her a bit rough.
M-Scizor; This one I will give is a legit change, swapping it to "only" a check where it has to rely on Priority Bullet Punch to kill.
Ferrothorn; re. Celesteela with very slight changes still reliant on rolling Max Damage to kill, except 4 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (121 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Giratina-Origin: 165-195 (53.2 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO means it kills sooner.
And Tapu Fini is also a Check still, as opposed to a counter.

Honestly, I think you're blowing those out of proportion.
 

david0895

Mercy Main Btw
Whirlwind+Roost, Brave Bird deals more damage. Still a win for Skarm.
Celesteela; make CAP23 400lbs so full power heavy slam kicks off. 252/252/4 defensively, Seed, Toxic, Protect; Switch in, Protect, Seed, Protect, Toxic, Protect, Heavy Slam seems like it should work. It's a 7 Turn KO rolling Max Damage on each Spirit Shackle (Switch, Protect, Seed, Protect, Toxic, Protect, Heavy Slam), which is a guaranteed KO for Celesteela; if leaving her a bit rough.
M-Scizor; This one I will give is a legit change, swapping it to "only" a check where it has to rely on Priority Bullet Punch to kill.
Ferrothorn; re. Celesteela with very slight changes still reliant on rolling Max Damage to kill, except 4 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (121 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Giratina-Origin: 165-195 (53.2 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO means it kills sooner.
And Tapu Fini is also a Check still, as opposed to a counter.

Honestly, I think you're blowing those out of proportion.
Celesteela generally doesn't use Toxic. Anyway:

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Garchomp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 160-188 (40.2 - 47.2%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Ok, but how can a counter take AT LEAST 80% of damage before of taking the KO?

Btw, Sheer Force will force 3 counters to be moved into the check section and that's pretty bad
 

G-Luke

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Whirlwind+Roost, Brave Bird deals more damage. Still a win for Skarm.
Celesteela; make CAP23 400lbs so full power heavy slam kicks off. 252/252/4 defensively, Seed, Toxic, Protect; Switch in, Protect, Seed, Protect, Toxic, Protect, Heavy Slam seems like it should work. It's a 7 Turn KO rolling Max Damage on each Spirit Shackle (Switch, Protect, Seed, Protect, Toxic, Protect, Heavy Slam), which is a guaranteed KO for Celesteela; if leaving her a bit rough.
M-Scizor; This one I will give is a legit change, swapping it to "only" a check where it has to rely on Priority Bullet Punch to kill.
Ferrothorn; re. Celesteela with very slight changes still reliant on rolling Max Damage to kill, except 4 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (121 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Giratina-Origin: 165-195 (53.2 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO means it kills sooner.
And Tapu Fini is also a Check still, as opposed to a counter.

Honestly, I think you're blowing those out of proportion.
Tapu Fini is in fact a counter, and not a check, so 2hkoing your counters isn't blowing anything out of proportion
Also Celesteela rarely run Toxic and taking at least 80% damage before doing anything back kinda sucks. No Celesteela runs 252 / 252 physical bulk anyways so those calcs are misleading.

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Giratina Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 175-208 (43.9 - 52.2%) -- 77.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

CAP23 has a high chance of 2HKOing Celesteela. Can one tell me how that even checks it, much less counters it?

Stop discussing Sheer Force. You have been shot down several times and now all you are doing is derailing the thread.
 
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Quanyails

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Part of the discussion I've seen about allowing a secondary ability is a way to let CAP 23 not be debilitated by the negative effects of permanent sleep (namely the ability to use Rest). When it comes to the slate, it would make sense to divide No Competitive Ability into two options: Ineffective Ability (see CAP 16) and No Secondary Ability. This way we will be deciding explicitly the extent we want Comatose to define this CAP. Should Ineffective Ability be selected, it would be considered a flavor ability and be polled after movepool and sprites.
 
As I've stated on Discord, I agree with Quany about dividing NCA into the two options she has mentioned above. If we have No Secondary Ability, do we keep Comatose as the sole Ability, forgoing a Hidden Ability in the process? Either way, Comatose works well with the CAP's access to essential status immunity, and going offensive could encourage a limit on the CAP's viable move pool due to its existing 133 base Attack.
 

jas61292

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Personally, I think that is a bit overthinking things. It reminds me a lot about the way people treat Hidden Power during stats, worrying that if we don't make our SpA completely unusable that it will be utilized to beat counters, when reality tells us that is not the case. If we choose no competitive ability, I absolutely do not believe that we need to have an option for no secondary ability all together, as no one, in actuality, is ever going to use a worthless ability instead of the amazingness that is Comatose, just to use the mediocre move Rest.
 

Bughouse

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literally every other pokemon with a trapping move can use rest. it's not broken, even in the situation where the Pokemon also has perish song and good defensive typing (think Whirlpool Perish Song Azumarill).

CAP 23 should get a second ability like just about anything else.

The only argument for it getting a single ability is consistency with Komala, but we've never needed to adhere to in-game flavor like that and it shouldn't drive the decision for a competitive stage of the CAP process like secondary ability.
 

LucarioOfLegends

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Consider this your 24 hour warning, but there are still some things that I would like to address.

Volt Absorb: Most arguments about this ability seem incredibly focused on the idea of removing Volt Switching, although a) we are already perfectly fine against Volt Turn in general and b) most Pokemon use U-turn to pivot, and those we can trap can severely hurt us with their other options. Volt Absorb isn't an ability that should be thrown aside either, as a complete immunity to a type with the added benefit of healing of damage is a very beneficial effect. So I'd like some justification of why we need an ability such as Volt Absorb besides from a VS immunity. That VS immunity has been the leading argument for it for a while, and no one really seems convinced by it. What other reasons do we have to actually consider this ability?

Sheer Force: No. Absolutely not. This ability is far too strong considering our current stat spread lets us hit harder than Landorus-I, and we pretty much get a guaranteed move to abuse it with Sheer Force Spirit Shackle. This ability has also severely been defined as completely and utterly anti-concept in our primary ability phase, so it would be contradictory to go back on our previous words. Finally, we would be giving CAP23 two unnaturally strong abilities, which is out of the bounds of this discussion. No more on this.

Rest: I trust Deck's judgement in saying that CAP23's bulk won't be too much with Early Bird+Rest, but I would like some calcs to show that our checks can reliably 2HKO it, which is what is required for CAP23 not to completely rest stall us to death. Other abilities such as Pressure can also work with Rest sets, but that really hasn't been discussed too much, so some more discussion on this would be great if we still want this to be a possible route we can go.

Offensive Abilities (Rock Head, Skill Link, Strong Jaw): Strong Jaw has already been discussed throughout both threads, but Skill Link and Rock Head are really untouched ground in this thread. There has been a little bit about them on the surface, but they need a bit more discussion to get their ideas more fleshed out and why we should consider them for our slate.
 
I don't think we're "perfectly fine" against a move that completely invalidates our concept unless we're completely immune to it.

That said, an immunity ability is useful for other reasons. A trapper is opportunistic, meaning it has to be prepared to come in at any time, so it has to be able to come in easily. Immunities help with that. In addition, a move-dependent trapper has to take a lot of hits before it manages to actually achieve anything, meaning that limiting your opponent's ability to damage you is important. With an immunity ability, we can be immune to three types, which is very helpful in giving us the opportunities to set and take advantage of our trap. In addition, Electric is an important coverage type (half of boltbeam), so an immunity to it really helps give us opportunities we need.

An immunity to something we already resist also does the least damage to our checks and counters list of all the possible immunities available.

I'm not thrilled with an offensive ability considering our attack stat and the fact that we don't want to be a sweeper or generic wallbreaker. Especially when that ability does not affect trapping directly, as it encourages replacing the trapping move with another offensive move.
 

Deck Knight

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So I just had a thought of an ability that would help CAP immensely as secondary ability: Frisk.

With Frisk, you can tell if your opponent has a Shed Shell, Choice Scarf, or Rocky Helmet which can inform your trapping decision and general strategy from there. It otherwise has no competitive effects, but it gives you excellent information you'd want to know in attempting to trap a target.

On Rock Head, the main attack that it seems to aid that we've discussed is Brave Bird, and some Head Smash (though we should be wary of that, Choice Band Head Smashes from CAP have roughly equivalent power to Mega Crucibelle Head Smashes.) Wild Charge (Skarm, Steela, Fini) or Wood Hammer (Fini, Soil) would mess with our checks and counters too much. I generally don't think we need an offensive enhancer at all, however of the ones proposed I think Rock Head is the most balanced.
 
Frisk seems like a pretty good idea tbh. Lets us still run Rest sets, and removes some element of guessing from more defensive trapping.
 

david0895

Mercy Main Btw
Volt Absorb: Another utility could be that we can force out some choice locked Pokemon like Koko or Plasmanta, but I don't think it's enough...

Rock Head: If Rock coverage will be allowed, this could be a useful ability, since it grants a safe Head Smash which if powerful than Stone Edge. Also, even Brave Bird benefits of this, but this move alone is not enough

Skill Link: This ability grants all hits on Rock Blast (if allowed) and Icicle Spear. Same comment of Rock Head

Rest: I trust Deck's judgement in saying that CAP23's bulk won't be too much with Early Bird+Rest, but I would like some calcs to show that our checks can reliably 2HKO it, which is what is required for CAP23 not to completely rest stall us to death. Other abilities such as Pressure can also work with Rest sets, but that really hasn't been discussed too much, so some more discussion on this would be great if we still want this to be a possible route we can go.
*NOTE: most of these calcs are the weakest cases, normally a lot of these have a Life Orb or a Z-Crystal that grants the OHKO*

252 Atk Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 296-350 (95.4 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Guts Naviathan Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 231-273 (74.5 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 734-866 (236.7 - 279.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 302-356 (97.4 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Syclant Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 320-377 (103.2 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 330-393 (106.4 - 126.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
8 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 116-140 (37.4 - 45.1%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and hail damage
252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 452-534 (145.8 - 172.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 422-498 (136.1 - 160.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 348-410 (112.2 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mimikyu Shadow Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 260-308 (83.8 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 240-284 (77.4 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 408-480 (131.6 - 154.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 299-354 (96.4 - 114.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Colossoil Knock Off vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 444-524 (143.2 - 169%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Sableye-Mega Knock Off vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 164-194 (52.9 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Sharpedo-Mega Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 602-710 (194.1 - 229%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Gyarados Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 226-266 (72.9 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tapu Lele (Choice Scarf) Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 288-338 (92.9 - 109%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Kerfluffle Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 260-308 (83.8 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 332-392 (107 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 386-456 (124.5 - 147%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 180-212 (58 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
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The problem with Skill Link and Rock Head is that they're both outclassed by Strong Jaw as offensive abilities, as Stone Edge is already strong enough to take down Zapdos, and a stronger Rock move only serves to make Celesteela and Skarmory take more damage, something we don't want, and Brave Bird is weaker than Strong Jaw Psychic Fangs.
 
I think the argument towards no secondary ability is a bit wrongheaded. Comatose wasn't meant to be this mons defining trait, it's ability to trap and defeat other mons was, Comatose just happens to be a boon to that. That being said, I think the majority of abilities being considered are going to effect CAP negatively. Sheer Force off of 133 Base Attack is absurd, even Nidoking, who's offensive stats sit at a meager 102/85/85, has been able to maintain status as a fearsome wallbreaker for generations based on the merits of movepool and sheer force alone. Other offensive abilities typically involve boosts to contact moves, which leaves CAP vulnerable to Rocky Helmet/Iron Barbs/Rough Skin which, given it's trapping concept, it doesn't really appreciate.

Pressure encourages PP stalling, which typically isn't a gamebreaking thing, and it may not be on CAP either, but it's a horrid experience (and bordering on uncompetitive IMO) to be able to do absolutely nothing while your opponent rests up and wastes away turns until your pokemon fades away.

I'm not fully against Early Bird but I definitely think Shed Skin is the better option, it's not quite the buff to rest that early bird is and, in the case that CAP is near full health but has been statused with burn or para, allows CAP a chance of ridding itself of status while continuing to put offensive pressure on the opponents mon.

I'll throw out a couple that I think could benefit CAP without being too over the top:
Marvel Scale
CAP hates chip damage and loves it's high attack and speed stats, meaning it's neutered by status, hence Comatose's appeal. Marvel Scale takes a similar approach to covering up CAP's shortcomings with totally different results. CAP can now forego it's menacing attack stat to run a bulkier flame orb set. Allowing it to trap things it may otherwise struggle with and wear them down through means other than brute force.


Moxie
Moxie is an underutilized ability partially due to the conditions of it's use. Unlike Beast Boost, who's users start out as powerful steamrollers and only get more threatening as time goes on, Moxie users are typically outclassed by other mons prior to the moxie boost, or lacking in power regardless. CAP has it's own niche that no other mon can claim, a niche that almost guarantees it a boost if executed properly. It's an ability that doesn't completely overshadow Comatose, but still has uses in the right contexts.


Cursed Body
Cursed Body doesn't encourage PP stalling as heavily as Pressure, but the ability to take key elements out of an opponent's movepool is one that shouldn't be overlooked on a trapping mon.


Stakeout
Stakeout at a glance seems like one of the most anti-concept abilities CAP could have as it benefits it in no way once a mon has been effectively trapped. The catch being that Stakeout, in conjunction with CAPs 133 attack stat, dissuades switching enough to effectively be a trapping move in and of itself. It may be too much, given that anything that doesn't want to get trapped is going to have its replacement get smacked by a superpowered Spirit Shackle, but I thought it could be worth consideration.


Modedit: Please do not suggest banned abilities.
 
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Illusion is on the banlist.
Moxie is more suited to sweepers and wallbreakers, of which TrapCAP is supposed to be neither.
Cursed Body, which has already been discussed, requires TrapCAP to first either tank an attack or consistently run Substitute.
Stakeout was considered to be not as good as Analytical in primary discussion.

Between Magic Guard and Marvel Scale, I think I'd prefer Magic Guard as it doesn't mess with the stat spread and helps TrapCAP do its job without having to worry so much about hazards.
 
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Thanks! Haven't been following this CAP too closely so I wasn't sure what had been discussed.

I'd still argue for Stakeout over Analytical however. The damage boost on switching is far, far higher than Analytical (100% vs 33%) and I think the damage exclusively upon switchin vs moving last is more in keeping with CAPs concept and would allow it to perform it's job better. Though if people have been over this already then I'm probably beating a dead horse at this point.
 
Stakeout isn't too great of an idea because it would make it so that CAP, with the excellent neutrally offensive type that is Ghost, would practically be without switch ins, since very little can switch into a 133 Base Attack Stakeout STAB Spirit Shackle and survive a hit after, and we're guaranteed to be able to take a shot after on everything but Ghosts (against which it's super effective and therefore a oneshot basically) and things that outspeed and have a pivot move or OHKO us. This just breaks down a large amount of what should probably check us, and makes CAP 23 practically guaranteed a kill any time it comes out safely.
 
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