DON'T POST IN THIS THREAD. WAS AN ACCIDENT.
Sorry for the delay but I had to decided on which (art or stat) poll goes first. :P
Okay, voting for this thread will be done in a preferential format, just like that last time this poll was done. You order and bold the spreads you want from 1-10, with your favorite as number one and your least favorite as number nine. The number you give a spread is the number of points it earns. The spread with the least amount of points at the end is the winner, similar to golf. Please refer to each spread by its creator's name. This method allows us to be accurate while only performing one poll.
One major rule within this poll is that no one can post a tallied count of any and all vote except for the Topic Leader which at the moment is me.
Sorry for the delay but I had to decided on which (art or stat) poll goes first. :P
Okay, voting for this thread will be done in a preferential format, just like that last time this poll was done. You order and bold the spreads you want from 1-10, with your favorite as number one and your least favorite as number nine. The number you give a spread is the number of points it earns. The spread with the least amount of points at the end is the winner, similar to golf. Please refer to each spread by its creator's name. This method allows us to be accurate while only performing one poll.
One major rule within this poll is that no one can post a tallied count of any and all vote except for the Topic Leader which at the moment is me.
Fishin said:85 HP / 82 Atk / 81 Def / 117 SpA / 96 SpD / 79 Spe - Total 540.
HP: 85 is a reasonable number. It falls well within the precedent left behind by most other Fire types, and gives solid durability when combined with both of our Pokemon's defenses. It's hard to really go into detail on how HP will be effective since it's completely reliant on Defense and Special Defense, so I'll delve into that in the respective sections of each stat.
Attack: 82 really isn't a perfect number for a straight physical sweeper, but it's not entirely unusable either. This Pokemon is meant to be more of a special attacker anyways, but given that Fire/Grass hits Super Effective on nearly every physical wall and the fact that our Pokemon will likely have access to several powerful physical options depending on design (Power Whip, Wood Hammer, and Flare Blitz are all potential moves, possibly boosting options like Swords Dance as well), 82 attack gives our Pokemon a fighting chance on the physical side.
Defense: 81. With a balanced defensive spread, 81 is a reasonable amount of defense to have. Combined with the HP, you barely survive a LO +2 Extremespeed from Adamant Lucario, which this can revenge kill should you be running max Speed as well. The resistances of Grass/Fire aren't frequently used on the physical side, so it's less of a priority. It's still very defeatable, however - Adamant CB Dugtrio will OHKO with Stone Edge, and other Rock attacks will inflict heavy damage.
Special Attack: 117. A bit lower than Heatran or Moltres, but still plenty strong. Against Bliss...Sunny Day, Modest Life Orb Fire Blast does roughly 44-51% to 148/0 Bliss. So, in other words, you can beat Bliss with a bit of effort (aka SR or some other residual damage, or using Specs instead of LO), but otherwise you won't be able to, even with the Sunny Day boost. Otherwise, though, it's got sufficient power to deal a lot of damage when you combine Fire Blast, <grass move>, and Hidden Power Ice/Ground.
Special Defense: 96. The more useful of this Pokemon's defensive stats, since both Grass and Electric attacks are almost always special. Our Pokemon does well against most Electric, Grass, or other neutral Special attacks - against a 4/0 form of this Pokemon, 0 Sp atk Zapdos's Thunderbolt does 21-25% damage and Celebi's HP Fire does 17-20%, so it'll have plenty of Pokemon to safely switch in against. It also fares decently against special Electivire variants, taking less than 50% damage from Flamethrower. Blissey can't really do much either beyond status (148 sp atk Ice Beam does 22-25%). On the other hand, Togekiss (with no sp atk investment) is capable of 2HKOing with Air Slash, and stronger neutral hits will deal wear it down quickly.
Speed: 79 speed isn't too fast - you're not going to be competing against the likes of Infernape anytime soon, but with 0 speed investment you do beat quite a few walls to the punch. Interestingly enough, with max speed and a +speed nature, it reaches 280 - so this has the ability to revenge kill Adamant SD Lucario. It also puts our Pokemon slightly above Heatran. You still won't be winning a straight fight against it without a Ground type attack, but you can finish it off with some previous damage. Note that you're still slower than Togekiss and Gyarados with equal investment, which can counter some sets.
Also, inputting these stats into X-Act's formula for rating of a Pokemon returns 537 (was 528 before I boosted the stat total to 540 to comply with the poll results), which falls into the very good rating section. Unlike many other spreads here, though, this spread lets our Pokemon make some use of its Attack stat, which is a non-factor on most other spreads.
Dane said:Hp 99 / Atk 72 / Def 115 / SpAtk 97 / SpDef 93 / Speed 69 Total – 545
Defense given is the same as Sudowoodo. It grants physical bulk, while not being entirely consumed by the stat.
Special Defense calculated out as 81% of Defense. This yields 93.15, rounded down to 93.
Speed is 69 to outspeed non-scarfed and non +speed nature Togekiss if this Pokemon uses a +speed nature and 252 speed EVs. A +speed nature Togekiss needs only invest 168 EVs to ensure it outspeeds this Pokemon. Though it might seem like being able to outspeed base 80 speed Pokemon is too good, remember that this forces it to use both a specific nature and 252 EVs. This leaves it with only 258 EVs to distribute among the rest of it's stats. This also gives it a relatively slow speed, so that it can "throw it's bulk around", similar to Swampert.
HP at 99 allows for large HP, enough to survive four Seismic Tosses or Night Shades if need be. It also prevents 101 Subs, but still yields a perfect regenerative spread with 248 EVs in HP. This grants 401 (402 maximum with full 252 EVs) which has 1/4th be 100hp, and 1/16th would be 25hp.
Special Attack of 97 gives it more special attack than Walrein Golduck, Electivire, and Kingdra, but less than Dragonite, Arcanine, Starmie, and Venusaur. It's enough to pack a punch without being an outright devastating Hulk.
Attack at 72 is 74.22% of Special Attack. This provides a usable stat if given Rock Head along with Flare Blitz and Wood Hammer. This would provide this Pokemon with a "Boah" set, with a usable physical pool, while still maintaining Special as it's primary attack type outside of the "Boah" set.
Hyra said:HP 123/Atk 61/ Def 104/ SpAtk 91/ SpDef 86/ Spd80 Total: 545
123 HP - I want big HP. (There's also the fact that other spreads stole my HP range, so I have to make mine stand out more.) 123 is a cool number.
61 Atk - I don't want it lower than this, but it needs to be this low so that I can keep my SAtk low. (This is a little under 75% of SAtk.)
104 Def - Yay more big numbers. This is really the defining feature of the spread. A physically bulky fire type that doesn't get pwned.
91 SAtk - Stays within the guidelines of SAtk being above 80% of the highest defense stat. It's also 4 less than Kingdra's SAtk because this has better STAB moves than Kingdra.
86 SDef - Remainder. Nothing really to say about this, it’s within the mixed guidelines.
80 Speed - I settled for lower. This takes minimal EV investment with Chlorophyll to outspeed ScarfCross. It ties with Togekiss.
Mekkah said:120 / 65 / 106 / 90 / 95 / 60 is my new end result, with a BST of 536, the bare minimum. I'm not tempted at all to use my other points anywhere, I've reached my goal: a very bulky Grass / Fire type with only average Special Attack, to make it not a heavy sweeper, but rather a tank that not only walls sweepers, but also beats out other tanks. I think that alone is very potent. Its HP is up there with Cresselia with lighter defenses (as well as the Stealth Rock weak) to keep it from being gamebreakingly hard to ram.
To show you how well it takes a hit (on inaccurate calculators, but it's only for comparison to other Pokemon)
299 Attack STAB Choice Band Close Combat on max HP/max Def Impish Skarmory
299 attack vs 416 defense, 120 power(* 1.5 * 1.5), 334 max HP: 42.22% - 49.7%
Same Close Combat on max HP/max Def Bold Woodman
299 attack vs 342 defense, 120 power(* 1.5 * 1.5), 444 max HP: 38.74% - 45.5%
Or, in raw damage, Woodman takes 202 max, and Skarmory takes 166 max, but Woodman has 110 more HP.
So indeed, he's about as sturdy as they get. Of course, Skarmory's resistances and Stealth Rock neutrality will make it win in this department; it is just a hypothetical show-off for my spread. I don't think it is going over the top either; there are many Pokemon out there with a better laid out physical HP/Def.
Don't be repelled by what looks like low Special Attack: a Fire Blast from this thing's minimum Special Attack should still do a minimum of about 93% to Skarmory, and Flamethrower will still always 2HKO (75% on a somewhat inaccurate calculator). Hippowdon takes about 75% from Grass Knot. 404/236 HP/SpDef Celebi should take about 50% on average from a Flamethrower when you don't invest anything, but with ~64 EVs we are already looking at a guaranteed 50% while with 128 you have a guaranteed 2HKO.
Latinoheat said:98/74/110/114/86/63 Total: 545
HP=98
(Min= 337,Max=400)
A very good start, but not quite enough to form 101 subs. This unique HP stats combines with two very good defensive stats to provide this pokemon with an excellent overall bulkiness.
Att= 74
(Min=184,Max=247,Max+=271)
Ok like alot of people i wanted this to be able to use physical attacks, this stat is just about as high as possible.
Despite this a stabbed power whip will make some of the best physical walls in the game think twice about switching in.
Def= 110
(Min= 256,Max = 319,Max+=350)
A huge defence stat if you want some comparisions look at how 98/110 compares to some of the best defensive pokemon in the game.
(Using the Def tiers)
Suicune 119.77
Metagross 119.58
Donphan 119.52
Tyranitar 119.37
Fire/Grass 119.245
Uxie 119.23
Deoxys Defense 119.19
Skarmory 119.17
Slowbro 119.06
Gliscor 118.87
Spe Att=114
(Min=264,Max=327,Max+=359)
Lets face it alot of people wanted to see something that can throw out a good special hit, this pokemon is able to do that. If you want comparisions
Yanmega=116
Raikou=115
Lucario=115
Fire/Grass=114
Salamence=110
Spe Def= 86
(Min=208,Max=271,Max+= 298)
Not as high as defence but still very decent, once again for comparision here are the special defence tiers.
Mesprit 117.64
Swampert 117.59
Fire/Grass 117.066
Kingdra 116.4
Spd=63
(Min=162,Max=225,Max+=247)
Ha, anyway i feel this is a unique stat that sets a new speed benchmark for the OU metagame, the only other pokemon that gets this speed stat was deemed too powerful for the metagame, the pokemon in question-Goldeen.
This stat outspeeds both Swampert(60) and Tyranitar(61) but sits safely below base 65 pokemon such as Scizor and Umbreon.
Maxed out this stat hits 225, with a choice scarf this becomes 337. So if your scarfed your going to be at a speed tie with Max(+Speed) Infernape but then again you can't have everything. Then again gives those lazy ones who sit at 335,as a means of outspeeding Garchomp something to think about.
Aldaron said:Anyway, this spread emphasizes three main points:
1.) It should be B-B-B-Bulky (this means potential spreads of 60 HP / <125 Def / <125 SpD are just lol), to be able to support the team with a plethora of potential Grass support options (along with the cool Will-o-wisp and Lava Plume options Fire provides) and get out of the rut of fragile Fire Pokemon. To emphasize the originality factor and try to make it somewhat efficient on defenses, I am also going to make its HP high.
2.) It should be able to Special Attack effectively. This was the community's decision, not mine. I wanted physical, but I'll back down to the will of the community.
3.) As I outlined in the previous topic, its potential counters (not necessarily in the traditional definition, just checks lets say), such Gyarados, Tyranitar and Togekiss should be able to outspeed it. Hence, 60 base Speed.
I am using a BST of 540 as well.
X / 70 Atk / Y / 105 SpA / Z / 60 Spe
This gives us 70 Atk for a maximum of 262, not bad for a surprise Wood Hammer / Flare Blitz CB set, and the minimum Speed to allow Tyranitar to hopefully remain effective against it. 105 SpA gives it a maximum of 339, more than enough to take advantage of its great STAB, HP Ice, and as Deck Knight mentioned before, possible Earth Power, as there is precedent for Fires to obtain this.
This allows us 305 to emphasize on the defenses and HP. Heatran is a OU defensive Fire, but it is exactly even on the defenses, though generally emphasizing Special Defense. That's why I'll make it a teenie bit biased towards physical defense, while of course, keeping its HP high.
115 HP / 102 Def / 83 SpD.
This yields it to be more defensive on average than Heatran, emphasize the physical side, yet actually be weaker special defensively than Heatran. It allows Heatran to keeps it niche, while surpassing it in other regards.
This gives:
115 HP / 70 Atk / 102 Def / 105 SpA / 83 SpD / 60 Spe, with 5 leftover to reach 540.
That 5 can go anywhere; if you guys want to reach Gengar type Special attack, you can throw it in there, or if you guys feel that this should outspeed Tyranitar, you can throw them there. I, however, I am going to throw those 5 into Attack, just to make its surprise potential a wee bit more effective. Also, because I believe the 30% line has to be reached, I'll tweak SpA.
115 HP / 74 Atk / 102 Def / 106 SpA / 83 SpD / 60 Spe Total: 540My search for a relatively unique spread and purpose yielded me this spread. This is kind of similar to Hippowdon / Suicune / Gastrodon, Suicune the most. However, because of its reduced Speed, higher Special attack, better STAB, it is more of an effective special attacker than Suicune without allowing it to beat its counters. The lack of Calm Mind will also separate Suicune and this Pokemon, along with (hopefully) and a lack of Roar, though that might be assuming too much.
Potential special attacking spreads would look like 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe Modest, reaching 434 HP / 184 Atk / 240 Def / 342 SpA / 202 SpD / 157 Spe. This would allow it to support the team with decent general bulk and hit the opposition, but not first. The lack of speed is a serious check against its defensive and offensive potential.
A pure supporting set, let's say, emphasizing physical defense, would look like 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SpD, Bold. This would have 434 HP / 184 Atk / 308 Def / 248 SpA / 226 SpD / 156 Spe, clearly a physical tank capable of switching into threats such as Garchomp and Heracross. This is probably the set I would run, as I certainly see Lava Plume / Grass knot / Rest / Leech Seed as the running standard on this, as Karrot has previously stated.
Anyway, I'm also going to take a step back and emphasize why eric the espeon's point in that last topic about how not maximizing efficiency would help "make it not broken" or something is wrong. Maximizing defenses on a Defensive Pokemon is beneficial to balancing the metagame. Look at the top 50 used on Shoddy...a good majority are offensive types, and the defensive types are only there to ensure that those offensive types are countered, lol. This is a decidedly offensive metagame.
Additionally, you guys added two Pokemon that are very offensive to the metagame. Syclant is obvious, and say what you want about Revenankh being mixed, the bottom line is that Fighting / Ghost is the most efficient offensive typing in the game, and you guys gave it Bulk Up + Shadow Sneak in order to increase its already good Attack and priority attack whatever comes in.
As such, making a very good Pokemon defensively not only balances the normal metagame, but also the metagame you guys have altered by the addition of two Pokemon who together are much more offensive than defensive.
And that, by the way, is completely forgetting about the fact that you all want high Special Attack anyway, so this thing will have potential offensively as well to take advantage of its STAB.
If we use X-Act's great guide for analyzing stats:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39447
And plug in my spread, we get 528 for the final number, putting it in the "Very Good" category.
Very good would put it in the category of Togekiss and Milotic, two Pokemon somewhat similar to this. Both are good defensively and emphasize one attack over the other. This however, is the physically defensive version, with better typing in order to make up for its abysmal speed.
I dunno about you, but a very Bulky Pokemon just seems right if we are trying to balance metagame.
Time Mage said:The stat spread I propose is the following:
HP: 45
Att: 55
Def: 115
SAtt: 105
SDef: 115
Spe: 105
This stat spread was created to have the "ultimate" subseeder AND to be a very good sweeper:
45 HP with just 36 EVs gives it 240 HP, allowing for optimal Leftovers recovery, and recovering, along with Leech Seed, 25% HP or more when using LS on a pokémon with 360 HP or more. That's a base 110 HP pokémon with no HP EVs, or a base 78 HP pokémon with 252 HP EVs. As you can see, against most walls it will be able to keep the sub until it runs out of PP. Couple that stalling with Will-o-Wisp or with a layer or two of toxic spikes and it can really bring down teams.
105 speed allows it to Leech Seed or Substitute on the switch, and then do the other one before most opponents have a chance to attack, thus starting the stall. It is also a very good speed for sweeping, outspeeding all base 100 plus our friend Garchomp.
105 special attack allows it to use the great STAB combo to its full extent, either by simply sweeping, or by using it in the subseed set, OHKOing most phazers before they can force you out. Skarmory won't dare to show its ugly face against this one, that's for sure.
115 on both defenses allows this to take hits quite well, despite the low HP. EV-less, it has about the same durability as Flygon (as well as being faster and more powerful on its main attacking stat), for example, which isn't considered a glass cannon, exactly.
55 on the physical attack stat, finally, just as a filler for a stat it won't really use ever.
So, to sum up: This spread allows for an very good sweeping pokémon, as well as the possibility of the best subseeding in the game, due to the great STAB combo, low HP and high speed. It can also work as a fast annoyer, spreading burn, sleep or paralysis statuses, depending on the movepool.
Aki said:Art form: Woodman, Deer can work though.
Base stats spread: 130/70/102/100/87/56
Base stats Reasoning:
Defences: 130/102/87
The HP and Defence let it take CBTar's Stone edge with 252/252 Relaxed.
Both spreads take Special hits approximatly the same, the second .125% better.
Attack: 70/100
70 attack makes a Gimmick set with SD Still viable, as well as that myriad of physical moves (Wood hammer, Flare Blitz, ect...), While STILL making Focus punch viable.
100 Special attack is a good, round number that isn't unbalancing, but still menacing and effective with EV Investment.
Speed: 56
This thing is so totally not outspeeding much viably in the Bulky Water/Ground/Steel thing. Speed is the absolute least neccecary stat.
BST: 545
Hit4Three said:60/70/100/120/100/90
HP: 60
HP definitely makes affects SubSeeding. The less you have, the more percentage you gain back from your Substitute, and with SR already a problem, we want this guy to be gaining back quite a bit of HP.
Attack: Well I was going 80, but that is a little less than minus 30% from 110, so I dropped it down. Attack is nice maybe for a surprise or two, but most physical sets are going to be gimmicky.
Defense: 100 gives this guy the defense of Celebi and Meganium, as well as being just under Heatran. I would not be averse to taking the extra 10 from Speed and/or losing some SAtk to pump up both defenses by 5 or 10.
Special Attack: We wanted a guy with good Special Attack. This is good. The same as Togekiss and Arceus, and it is just below Magmortar. I did pump the extra Attack points in here after I made sure 70 was low enough for the 30% rule, so taking 10 out of special attack here for defenses is a very real possibility.
Special Defense: This puts him on the same page as Meganium, Venasaur, Bellossom, Ninetales, and Ludicolo. Again, if the SAtk is a bit too high, or Medium wins the speed vote, this could get another 5-10 just like defense.
Speed: I don't think that it should be astronomically fast, so base 90. If Medium wins, i can cut out 10 points and put them into Def/SDef. This gives him the possibility of outspeeding: Ninetales, Charizard, Salamence, Typhlosion, Tentacruel, Houndoom, Arcanine. It puts him on the same page as Roserade, Moltres, Lucario, and Pory-Z.
