CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 10 (Movepool Discussion)

[the_artic_one]

Give it Fire Punch. The thing is, artwise, made for it

It doesn't have hands, much less fists....

 

[Dane]

Can't be someone's signature move, since 7 Pokemon can use it.

 

[Deck Knight]

Can't be someone's signature move, since 7 Pokemon can use it.

List of Aura Sphere users:

Mewtwo
Mew
Lucario
Togekiss
Dialga
Palkia
Giratina

If only these pokemon all had something in common... Oh wait, 5/7ths of them are Ubers/Legends, Lucario is a movie promotion pokemon based around Aura, and Togekiss is, well, yeah.

 

[Fishin]

Your opponent isn't going to mystically know what HP you're running until it is too late. A physical Grass move is pointless on the DD set since all of your hard counters for every Woodman set are neutral to or resist Grass. This set derives no competitive advantage from having a physical Grass move unless your opponent believes it wise to switch Tyranitar (KO'd by BB anyway), Swampert, or Hippowdon into this. The very threat that this could be packing a STAB Grass move almost sure to OHKO or 2HKO them is enough to ward them off.

Too late? Even in the worst case scenario, they all get off at least one attack, and it's up to the player to have a failsafe if they do run into the wrong HP. Nobody complains when their Gliscor is KO'd by SDcario with HP Ice - they just have a backup plan (which requires less preparation than a real counter, because again, running HP causes Woodman to lose coverage).

Its 4MS. Your opponent has no idea what actually counters your pokemon, so they will switch in the most likely counter, in this case Moltres or Salamence.

That situation is already the status quo with a lot of OU Pokemon. Switching Blissey into Salamence might be the right choice if it's using Specs, but otherwise it's a pretty poor move. Saying "you can't counter it until you know it's moveset" really isn't an argument point.

Moreover, your assertion that Life Orb is a valid assumption because Woodman cannot threaten these pokemon without it is clearly false, as indicated by my Life-Orb free numbers. My Spread 2HKO's these counters without Life Orb, yours will 2HKO them with Life Orb. It doesn't matter whether you're dealing 54% minimum or 78% mimimum, you're still 2HKOing. The only thing LO does in that instance is give your opponent free damage. The only difference is really Togekiss with Stealth Rock out, but with Lum Berry Togekiss cannot hope to cripple you before you defeat it.

I never asserted that Woodman couldn't threaten any of them without LO - I asserted that Woodman couldn't threaten them WITH LO unless it was using a specific HP (or in Heatran's case Brick Break), and the numbers show it.

Moreover, since the spread I gave is faster than all these pokemon (bar Mence) even if they have +Speed natures, the opponent hits second and therefore loses the 2HKO war. Only Salamence has the Base Speed neccesary to beat the 307 speed the spread has after a DD. If Salamence is using that much speed, then it can't be nearly as defensive, nor reach the crazy 405 Atk it is capable of, and therefore the 2HKO is guarenteed. As a matter of fact except for HP Elec on Bulkydos, the SA EVs are a waste and could go into HP or Defense. The EV spread really isn't even that polished, and could probably afford to give up some attack to ensure it survives specific hits.

This doesn't matter because none of them are being 2HKO'd, unless (again) Woodman is running a specific HP or Brick Break in Heatran's case, which causes it to lose more coverage against several opponents. Give me 4 moves and an EV spread that DDWoodman is using, and I'll give you several Pokemon that can counter it.

Gyarados isn't even a check on this pokemon. It fails to 2HKO the Bulky versions as it can't rely on a Stone Edge crit, and Grass Knot hits it STAB for 120 BP. Sure, you can switch Gyarados in, just don't expect any set capable of handling it to do anything except thank you for allowing your sweeper to be killed.

It's not a check on special versions or versions with HP Electric, but it absolutely is a counter to the set I posted, as well as other physical sets assuming we make Wood Hammer/DD illegal (and possibly even if it is legal).

 

[Aldaron]

So...there is no common theme?

 

[Dane]

If only these pokemon all had something in common... Oh wait, 5/7ths of them are Ubers/Legends, Lucario is a movie promotion pokemon based around Aura, and Togekiss is, well, yeah.

Still means it's not a signature move. If 5 ubers and another OU had Seed Flare, would you say it's Shaymin's signature move (assuming they were released at the same time)?

Besides, if Togekiss can get it, why couldn't this guy? I'd say a guy with cannons on his arms could shoot a sphere of aura better than a flying... swan? I'm not advocating the move itself, just that if Brick Break and Rock Slide can be considered I don't see why this can't be.

 

[Hyra]

That situation is already the status quo with a lot of OU Pokemon. Switching Blissey into Salamence might be the right choice if it's using Specs, but otherwise it's a pretty poor move. Saying "you can't counter it until you know it's moveset" really isn't an argument point.

I just want to address this part of the post:

We don't want to create Pokemon of Salamence level sweeping quality. Our goal is to expand the metagame, not shrink it by making more sweepers that draw their counters from the same ever shrinking pool of Pokemon.

 

[Deck Knight]

Still means it's not a signature move. If 5 ubers and another OU had Seed Flare, would you say it's Shaymin's signature move (assuming they were released at the same time)?

Besides, if Togekiss can get it, why couldn't this guy? I'd say a guy with cannons on his arms could shoot a sphere of aura better than a flying... swan? I'm not advocating the move itself, just that if Brick Break and Rock Slide can be considered I don't see why this can't be.

Everything about Togekiss' movepool is WTFMate. Seriously.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Personally, I can see HonōKusa shooting orbs of pure energy at his foes myself, but then I have too much damn imagination for one person so yeah. Since Aura Sphere and it's bigger brother Focus Blast aren't getting much votes I have to say they probably won't be on the voting table, or movepool for that matter.

 

[zxn666]

Perhaps we should get onto the next thread, with a poll for our favourite stat spreads or a poll for some questionable moves now, this discussion has gone on for quite a long time already.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Perhaps we should get onto the next thread, with a poll for some questionable moves now, this discussion has gone on for quite a long time already.

I kinda agree with you. I guess I'll get the next thread up soon.

 

[Deck Knight]

Just thought up some potential named.

The one I'm liking so far right now:

Coalizard. From Charcoal and Lizard. Some might think it too close to Charizard, but the entire pronunciation scheming is different.

Charizard

Coalizard

There's also Burnoak and Burnelm.

Coalelm could also work.

Maybe also Geckoak.

I've moved away a bit from Oakannon. Leonin is just... awful, sorry Lil Ant.

Coalizard is currently on the top of my list.

 

[Darkflagrance]

I just want to address this part of the post:

We don't want to create Pokemon of Salamence level sweeping quality. Our goal is to expand the metagame, not shrink it by making more sweepers that draw their counters from the same ever shrinking pool of Pokemon.

How is this sweeping like Salamence with only 60 base speed? To sweep you really need speed, otherwise you'll be hit with Thunderwave or something.

EDIT:

It should be a member of the Monster or Ground egg group.

It should also learn Swords dance.

And Recover should be a move, maybe synthesis.

I think It should learn blast Burn by tutor. I really think it has that power/potential.

Flash should come out of it's moveset though. It's wasting his moveset.

Add Flame Wheel. I really like it and this thing looks ready to roll. (couldn't avoid the pun)

If this is a member of the Ground group, it will have no illegal egg move combinations.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Coalizard.

Pronucation of this word would be? So, that's about four name to remember when it comes to naming.

Coalizard - coal-lizard
Leonin - Erh....right.
Mariguana - FUCK YEAH :P
X-Act Carbonus or something - X-Act, help D:

 

[Darkflagrance]

Pronucation of this word would be? So, that's about four name to remember when it comes to naming.

Coalizard - coal-lizard
Leonin - Erh....right.
Mariguana - FUCK YEAH :P
X-Act Carbonus or something - X-Act, help D:

Mariguana has to make it to the naming poll.

 

[Urza]

we really need something based on wood man...

arbormo? arnor (wood)/homo (man)?


hmmm....

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Mariguana has to make it to the naming poll.

Oh right...discussion before poll -.- Is it possible to skip that one and go straight to the poll? :P

Honō = Fire
Kusa = Grass
tokage = Lizard

Need something that can mix those three together or use parts from them.

 

[DougJustDoug]

Are we going to vote on the movepool any time soon?

 

[Gmax]

I think you're really overestimating this thing. With 70 base attack, its max possible attack without CB is 262. Which is nothing. Hell even after a Swords Dance it'll hit a max of what, 524? It will have a max speed of what, 330? Sure it as 2 nice STAB moves, but it won't be anywhere near as bulky, and everything hits neutral, so its not going to last as long as you think. CB Chomp doesn't need a turn to set up, is faster than this, and hits harder. DDNite also hits much harder and outspeeds more stuff and can access an unresisted combo(OK one of those is 75 BP, but he also has EQ and a move that is resisted only by steel).

Fire/Grass is resisted by quite a few things that can come in on this. Heatran, Mence, Gyarados(you saw the calcs of Hammer up there), are all pretty good counters.
DD would make this popwerful, not broken.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Are we going to vote on the movepool any time soon?

Just as soon as I make the questions and type out some generic opening statement with the rules.

 

[Dane]

Oh right...discussion before poll -.- Is it possible to skip that one and go straight to the poll? :P

Honō = Fire
Kusa = Grass
tokage = Lizard

Need something that can mix those three together or use parts from them.

We already have that. It's called Charmander. Japanese name of Hitokage. Hi being fire as well, so it's already Fire Lizard. If you want Japanese, go with the one I suggested:

Mokukikou

Moku = Wood
Kikou = Armor

But I agree with Doug, first things first.

 

[X-Act]

X-Act Carbonus or something - X-Act, help D:

Carboneous

Meaning 'Made of burning wood' in Latin.

Although many people ended up calling it 'Carboneos' since they say that it sounds better. *shrug*

 

[Lil Ant]

Coalizard - coal-lizard
Leonin - Erh....right.
Mariguana - FUCK YEAH :P
X-Act Carbonus or something - X-Act, help D:

Lee-O-Nin

bastard xP


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