CAP 33 - Part 4 - Threats Discussion

[quziel]

CAP 33 So Far

CAP 33 is a Water / Fairy type with Multiscale.

In this stage, we will try to analyze which Pokemon sets could threaten or be threatened by us. Based on our typing and concept we will also decide which specific threats we should focus on later stages, and which ones should be mostly left alone. Then, the Topic Leader will organize them into a list, following this basic format:

• Switch in: The list of Pokemon on which we should be able to have a easy time switching in and then forcing them out, more than once in a game. This doesn't mean that we should be able to come into any of their moves, just their most commonly used ones.
• Pressure: The list of Pokemon that might threaten us, but should not be able to switch in easily. They should not be able to check us easily.
• Checks and Counters: The list of Pokemon should, in some way, threaten us. This might mean that they will probably be able to beat us 1v1, or at least severely cripple us. Certain Pokemon, in particular Revenge Killers might be included both in here and in Pressure, because once they switch in, they should be able to check us.

This threatlist should serve as a guideline for the rest of the project. However, this is not set in stone, and might change later if the Topic Leadership Team deems it necessary.

The following is a set of questions that we should try to answer during this discussion:

• Going specifically by typing, what Pokemon found in the CAP metagame will be able to comfortably give this project trouble?
• What Pokemon will be major threats to this project right off the bat?
• What Pokemon have the potential to become counters?
• What Pokemon may end up as threats, but must be contained or dealt with per the concept?
• Will the concept succeed with this list of threats?
• Is this list of threats acceptable for the project?
• What Pokemon will be threatened by the CAP based off of typing?
• Are these Pokemon targets that we want CAP to hit?
• Will these targets be "unavoidable" to threaten based solely on the typing?
• What direction must the project go in now that a set list of basic threats has been identified?
• What must be done in order to make these threats "wanted counters" or these threats be eliminated from counter discussion?
• Are there any Pokemon that we want to completely counter?

No individual post has to answer every question.

Guidelines:
1) Pay close attention to the Topic Leader during this discussion. Their job is to keep us focused and to bring insight.
2) Do not poll jump. Poll jumping is a serious offense in these threads, and you can get infracted for it. Poll jumping is when you discuss something that should be discussed in the future, like specifying a CAP's stats or typing. You're allowed to hint at such things to conclude a point or to provide an example, but do not centralize your post on a poll jump. Poll jumping hurts the focus of early threads and can cause us to go off on a tangent. If you're not sure if a particular argument is poll jumping or not, err on the side of caution and don't post it.
3) Refer to Pokemon by specific sets. This way we can clearly identify which specific sets we should be focusing on, and what specific characteristics makes us threaten or threatened by them. Adding complete movesets, EV spreads and Natures is recommended, but not mandatory.
4) Assume that Stealth Rock in on both sides of the field, unless otherwise specified. This can be changed by the Topic Leader during the discussion.
4) This are the exact definitions of check and counter that we will be working with:

-Pokémon A checks a Pokémon B set if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into that Pokémon B set, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.
-Pokémon A counters a Pokémon B set if Pokémon A can manually switch into that Pokémon B set, and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

-----

With all that, I'll hand it over to ausma for their opening post.

 

[ausma]

Hello everyone, it's great to be back again. I hope you all have been enjoying the new metagame and got some time to mentally refresh. However now I think we are in a safe enough position to move forward with the process. I'd like to say a few things before we get going, though.

Because we are still in a turbulent, new metagame with options that may oscillate in-and-out of viability (or even may just get outright banned), the list in question will overall be quite tentative – in other words, not extremely binding. While this is generally the case with any threat list, it will especially apply here as the metagame is rapidly shifting, and OU may or may not be seeing more bans in the immediate future that could affect it further. While this means that discussing Pokemon that we aren't 100% sure about the viability of – such as the Loyal Three, Ogerpon, and notable returning options like Mandibuzz – is fair game, this is not an invitation to discuss the obviously unviable or unimpactful Pokemon. We technically have not seen how Mightyena fares in the metagame but it's pretty obvious it won't be making waves in the same vein as a Pokemon like Gliscor. Exercise common sense in this regard, but don't be afraid to ask questions in the CAP Discord if there are things you are uncertain of. Regarding Pokemon that have been available, if you want a general idea on viable pre-DLC Pokemon, including CAP Pokemon, I would advise looking at the Viability Rankings!

If anybody has any questions regarding my philosophy for approaching the threatlist post-DLC, or anything of that vein, don't hesitate to let me or the TLT know! Without further ado, let's get started.
___

At this stage in the process, we know several things: we're a fast wall, a Water/Fairy type, and our primary ability is Multiscale. Our threats by nature are going to be those that have the ability to actively impede our ability to do our job successfully, similarly to offensive Pokemon, but the dynamic behind how this actually happens is going to be pretty different. Though, with a high Speed tier, the intensity of these matchups' pressure can most certainly be mitigated, and may change how we choose to assess threat factor outright. I'm going to be starting us off with some questions relating to our positive matchups.

The first question is pretty straight forward; as a defensive Pokemon, we naturally want to be able to know what we are capable of beating, and how consistently. What offensive Pokemon should we be able to conventionally beat 1v1?

Our typing is very strong and plays a massive role in what we will be able to check and make progress against, and taking offensive blows is fine and all. However, walls can also face pressure in the form of passive damage and various disruptive moves like Knock Off and Salt Cure. What Pokemon, offensive or not, can we consistently switch into without fear of debilitating status/progress or the need for heavy commitments (items, undesired defensive investment)?

As a wall, we are successful when we successfully... well, wall our targets. However, a sitting duck that takes hits and recovers in your face, but only does that, only takes you so far. What Pokemon can we switch into consistently enough with our kit to take advantage of them and make actual progress with our utility?

Lastly, we have to consider how our stats will actually be interacting with our role. What Pokemon would be conventionally ones we can't beat, but can become positive matchups when we have the ability to immediately respond with a move on the switch-in? How big of a role might Multiscale play a role in this?

I'm gonna be checking in around ~24-48 hours to then discuss negative matchups, depending on the participation levels. I'm sure we're all ambitious to make the next stages engaging, and hopefully a productive threats stage should help with that!

 

[mark6870]

The first question is pretty straight forward; as a defensive Pokemon, we naturally want to be able to know what we are capable of beating, and how consistently. What offensive Pokemon should we be able to conventionally beat 1v1?

Walking Wake and Hamorott are our most significant selling points due to our typing, but we also check Roaring Moon, Miasmaw and Cinderace (as long as they do not have Gunk Shot), and Dragapult.

Our typing is very strong and plays a massive role in what we will be able to check and make progress against, and taking offensive blows is fine and all. However, walls can also face pressure in the form of passive damage and various disruptive moves like Knock Off and Salt Cure. What Pokemon, offensive or not, can we consistently switch into without fear of debilitating status/progress or the need for heavy commitments (items, undesired defensive investment)?

Walking Wake is our safest point of entry in the entire metagame. Outside of WW, there is also Equilibra who can pitifully click Rapid Spin, but outside of them, we don't switch into anything for free. Multiscale means we are marginally more afraid of Knock Off than your average mon due to it negating the ability, and many pokemon that we check can usually still make progress against us by means of Knock, Spikes, or via pivoting moves.

As a wall, we are successful when we successfully... well, wall our targets. However, a sitting duck that takes hits and recovers in your face, but only does that, only takes you so far. What Pokemon can we switch into consistently enough with our kit to take advantage of them and make actual progress with our utility?

Again, Walking Wake, Equilibra, and Hisuian Samurott cant really do anything against us and we threaten it out with STAB. Arghonaut is enticing, but Knock and Circle Throw chip damaging us and more importantly breaking our multiscale say otherwise.

Lastly, we have to consider how our stats will actually be interacting with our role. What Pokemon would be conventionally ones we can't beat, but can become positive matchups when we have the ability to immediately respond with a move on the switch-in? How big of a role might Multiscale play a role in this?

Multiscale plays a huge role in the scenario brought up by this question. Multiscale very often is the difference between a 2hko and a 3hko, or a 2hko and an OHKO. This opens up a scenario where a mon is an immediate threat and our Multiscale can allow us to eat the hit and fire off with an SE STAB, neutralizing the threat.
For example, say you're facing down a +2 Miasmaw. +2 Gunk would normally do, say, 150%, but in this case it would only do 75% and allows us to fire back (preferably moving first!) with an SE Moonblast, killing it and saving us from certain peril. Scenarios such as these show not only how Multiscale, but also our Speed plays into our effectiveness as a defensive Pokemon.

 

[shnowshner]

+2 Gunk would normally do, say, 150%, but in this case it would only do 75%

This does not happen because of Neutralizing Gas

 

[Samirsin]

Before I answer all the questions, some quick words.
Not sure how they will behave in the future, but the loyal three and Toxic Chain are a bad matchup. Being part poison and none of them weak to water, they can threaten us with a super effective move, which normally wouldn't be as bad, as we have Multiscale, but they have Toxic Chain, which would disrupt our ability and walling potential. Anything that can cause residual damage is not our friend.

 

[Amamama]

What offensive Pokemon should we be able to conventionally beat 1v1?

Assuming Multiscale is in tact, we should be able to beat all Pult sets even with lowish defenses and uninvested (spa)attack.
Offensive Tusk variants should be fair game (assuming Multiscale is unbroken), with the exception of Atk booster, which is dependent on stats a bit given it’s ability to maybe outspeed with spin while breaking MS and tank an uninvested Moonblast once (if Spa is too low) (which is a though trade), while hitting for a huge amount of damage with Headlong rush, potentially enough to K.O. After a spin again depending on stats.
Assuming MS is up, Hemo should be no issue even at plus one, so long as the stats aren’t dumpy levels of bad. Same goes for Wake even if someone is mad enough to run Spa Booster with specs, which we should comfortably check 1v1 as long as our base speed is higher (though let’s face it nothing switches into tera water Wake without water immunity and hefty special bulk). Not sure how to factor tera here but we don’t KO back of Wake is terad and we can’t recover off hydro steam damage if we assume only HP investment with an average to good bulk.
Cinderace could be attainable even if it carries Gunk Shot and all other sets are hard walled, though we do not enjoy wisp as it effectively neuters Multiscale for the remainder of the game.
We should be able to beat all Valiant sets (disregarding tera) if we have a higher base speed and an in tact Multiscale, with the exception of CM running Tbolt, which would require either a really good Spa or a lot of Special bulk.
33 Hard walls Hamurott, though it likely dislikes being knocked.
Zamazenta can hurt 33 with Wild Charge but otherwise really struggles into it and even wild charge could be mitigated by outspeeding.
A physical set could likely beats all Hoopa-U (unless you miss Play Rough) and Special still probably beats non AV Hoopa 1v1.
Miasmaw without Gunk Shot loses to 33, though Neutralizing Gas and good Special bulk mean that Gunk has a chance to OHKO, depending on bulk, while likely being able to live one Moonblast (33 stops Maw from Scale shorting though which is already valuable).
Roaring Moon loses to 33 without tera in Play.
Same goes for all Greninja forms barring Type changes through protean or tera.
Arcanine Hisui, Garchomp and most Rain Sweepers are lesser used mons that we should have a favorable Matchup into.

Of the new additions Crawdaunt, Gliscor, Infernape and Kommo-O should be easily possible to deal with 1v1.

What Pokemon, offensive or not, can we consistently switch into without fear of debilitating status/progress or the need for heavy commitments (items, undesired defensive investment)?

Given Multiscale is our ability and 33 likely banking a lot on it for increasing bulk, knock off, pivoting and Wisp/Toxic all are incredibly crippling, which greatly diminishes the fairly sizeable list of good matchups we have.
Of the mons listed above we switch into some Speed Booster Tusk variants, Hemoglobin, Wake not running Flip or Knock, Iron Valiant, Zamazenta, Garchomp and Greninja as well as Kommo-O.
Pokémon like Pult offensive Tusk and Walking Wake realistically require us to have Musltiscale in tact to be able to tank their strongest stabs. Especially Pult is gonna be and issue actually beating as only one uturn cycle or wisp might enable it to turn a 3HKO into a 2hko while likely being faster than 33.

I think pivoting and Status are more debilitating to 33 than knock off, as removing hazards - as hard as that is - can ensure keeping Multiscale in Tact.

This means Arghonaut, Hamurott not running flip turn and Great Tusk as well as Glsicor not running Toxic or U-turn could remain decent switch ins.
33 also still should be able to wall a good portion of the mons above even with MS broken, it just can’t reliably deal with some of them like Pult, Hemo, Hoopa, Miasmaw, Wake, Valiant, Hoopa or Band Zamazenta, without additional heavy defensive investment or big stats.

What Pokemon can we switch into consistently enough with our kit to take advantage of them and make actual progress with our utility?

We should be able to comfortably switch into some of the more utility/defensive focused mons in the tier repeatedly, without the need to immediately recover every time and have the ability to make progress with Stabs or utility.
Other Pokémon on the List of mons we can beat 1v1 need more immediate reactions via attacking, recovery or crippling status to effectively deal with.

What Pokemon would be conventionally ones we can't beat, but can become positive matchups when we have the ability to immediately respond with a move on the switch-in? How big of a role might Multiscale play a role in this?

:
This is a weird question to answer bc as long as Multiscale is up we have a great matchup into a lot of mons, though it requires scouting sets for some of the above I think moves like Encore, Strenght Sap, Haze, Wisp, Thunder Wave and Heal Bell (or other Status healing) can allow 33 to solidify some of the more shaky match ups and even expand the list of possibly winning matchups to other mons, especially those, that require to Multiscale to be untouched or 33 to outspeed the target.
Mons we potentially could add to the list of good matchups given different forms of Utility and stats are Kingambit (Encore, maybe Wisp), Kril (Outspeed+Knock, though it’s still a stretch), Cinderace (Twave if slower, Encore, Heal Bell), Specs Moth (Disable, Encore, Twave plus outspeeding), Valiant (Twave), Sneasler (Twave), Miasmaw (Encore, Wisp, Twave), Roaring Moon (Haze, Wisp, Twave), Cawmodore (Haze, maybe encore/Wisp if faster), Gmoltres (Haze, Encore, Twave), Garchomp (Haze, Encore, Wisp), Rain Sweeper (Twave), Ogrepon/Munkidory/Okidogi (Encore, Twave, though it’s a huge stretch), Gliscor (Encore, Heal Bell), Manaphy (Encore/Haze)

There are some more mons 33 should comfortably check, but going through all without knowing viability is tough notable i think are Revenankh, Ceruledge and Moltres.

 

[Brambane]

Moving forward with CAP33, we need to make two separate distinctions as we refer to checks and counters, as well as CAP33's general functionality.

1. Pokemon we beat because of Multiscale
2. Pokemon we beat regardless of Multiscale

CAP33 should focus more on Point 2; most of our favorable match-ups should not take Multiscale into consideration.

The reason I bring this up is that our ability is incredibly concept-positive, but if we are entirely focused on this Pokemon being functional because of Multiscale, we are left unable to take advantage of some of our typings greatest strengths.

The clearest example is Samurott-H. With Baxcalibur banned, the most obvious Pokemon for CAP33 to have a naturally typing advantage it is now Samurott-H. However, if your gameplan is trying to maintain Multiscale to fuction defensively throughout the match, this is a TERRIBLE Pokemon to switch into. If you switch into Ceaseless Edge and take marginal damage, CAP33 has a tough choice. It could try swinging at Samurott-H with STAB or punishing a switch, but then are sacrificing your turn to restore Multiscale for later in the match. If you heal back to full and Samurott-H clicks Ceaseless Edge again, you are back into that same decision matrix but now it has two layers. And it doesn't matter if Samurott-H is putting you at 98%, Multiscale is broken. It is also just not a very efficient use of limited recovery PP to heal chip from a move like Ceaseless Edge.

CAP33 should be able to perform the base functions of its typing, such as switching into Knock Off, Ceaseless Edge, etc, without feeling like its always compromising its bulk and game plan. What Multiscale should let us achieve is situationally countering boosted Pokemon. Basically use it to make plays and set-up safety nets, not as an ability trying to fulfill the role of stats.

To that end, CAP33 should be comfortable pressuring Pokemon based on our typing like Moltres, Dragapult, Samurott, Greninja, and Great Tusk with or without Multiscale. Stuff like Tera Fairy +1/+1 Hemogoblin, +2 Kingambit, and +3 Manaphy are where Multiscale should let us get in safely and take advantage of what that ability can let CAP33 achieve: saving your butt from a boosted sweeper when that is your highest priority.

 

[Fenghuang]

Seconding Brambane's typology. A mon that can only switch in on its major counters when at 100% health and no less will end up very inconsistent. Multiscale should be used to give conditionally safer switchins to mons we would normally not switch well in to but want to check.

 

[boomp]

What offensive Pokemon should we be able to conventionally beat 1v1?

Right off the back we should be able to beat Walking Wake, Dragapult, Zamazenta, and Hemogoblin.

What Pokemon would be conventionally ones we can't beat, but can become positive matchups when we have the ability to immediately respond with a move on the switch-in? How big of a role might Multiscale play a role in this?

Kingambit, krilowatt, Iron Valiant, and Sneasler that come to my mind where i think its just no way Cap 33 could beat against. But Depending on the speed, bulk of Cap 33 could make me see using status moves like wisp, T-Wave and even being able to Tera into another type, can change the tides of the match ups. The Ogerpons come to mind as well makes me feel its flat out unwinnable against them but being able to possible strength sap and tanking a hit with Multiscale can possible change the tides!

 

[ausma]

Hi everyone, terribly sorry for the delay. My IRL situation this week has been really hectic, so I've had to prioritize that. In any case, I don't want to keep us here longer than we need to, so I'm hoping to get through this next part fairly quickly so we can move on (trolololo). For now, here is a loose checklist from my own observations and the discussion that's taken place in the thread:

Safe Switch-ins:
These are Pokemon that we should be able to always be able to take advantage of to some extent. Even if they have tools to create progress, our ability to repeatedly switch in on them by merit of bulk and typing means that we can use them as a way to make progress of our own or easily bounce back from an undesirable position.

Favorable Switch-ins:
These Pokemon are ones we can use our well-rounded defensive profile to provide teams a check against, but have potent tools that can put us on the backfoot if we are too reckless with how we end up using CAP 33. The blend of typing and a defensively-able stat spread should mean that we can more actively consider them as Pokemon we can feasibly focus our efforts on actually walling. They're not overwhelmingly positive by any means; we want to have tools to defend our teams against these Pokemon as a wall. So, it can be expected that we invest some resources into bettering these matchups.

Ability-Dependent:
My motive behind the investigation of Multiscale was, primarily, as a way for us to outline what we shouldn't go out of our way to accommodate for. Brambane's post put it perfectly; if we are relying on Multiscale, we are making a Pokemon that is banking on Multiscale to successfully do its job when its job is, in actuality, completed by using the whole of our defensive profile. We should be using Multiscale to complement us, not to define us. As such, These Pokemon I have marked here as ones we should not go out of our way to invest our resources into, but are ones we can keep in mind as bonus targets when it comes to moves or stats if they spur up more naturally.

Since this set of Pokemon is very tentative, feel free to make any suggestions for/against any Pokemon.
__

With positive matchups mostly established, it's now time to discuss the lousy part: our weak points. As a fast wall, we are prone to being quite flexible, which makes it reasonable to stretch ourselves a bit thin when it comes to the kinds of Pokemon we are handling. However, every Pokemon has its shortcomings, and it's no different here. This is a bit of a weird one to navigate because of the unique nature of our spread, so I'd like to ask some questions to help guide your thinking and suggestions.

First, at what point exactly does a fast wall begin to have trouble at doing its job, even if it can consistently move first? What kind of progress can be feasibly made against a Pokemon of our build?

Second, I want to discuss pressure. As a wall, we are facing the heat very frequently, so we have to consider the kinds of attacks we expect to sponge, and how some may cut into our longevity. What Pokemon that we expect to face have access to tools that can make serious progress against us? How might these tools shake up matchups that appear positive otherwise?

There are many walls that, while they can sit around for a while, struggle to actually do anything of value to the opponent, making it easy for them to get into a position to win the game, or enable a teammate more easily. What Pokemon might we struggle to do anything against, even if we have staying power against them?

I'm hoping we can finally get onto Defining Moves either by the end of this weekend, or very early in the week. Happy chatting!

 

[Panic Station]

Your friendly neighborhood layman popping his head back in to elaborate on something I said in the Discord.

at what point exactly does a fast wall begin to have trouble at doing its job, even if it can consistently move first?

tbh, the layman's answer is "we get hit with status"

Chip damage, para, and sleep could all throw a monkey wrench into the works in varying degrees. Paralysis seem to be the biggest worry, since it's not only utilized by a type we have a weakness to, but the accompanying speed drop has the potential to take the "fast" out of "fast wall".

Okay, I hit post and had more thoughts. Poison is also a big worry, by the same "it's common on moves we're weak to" logic. While we might not be likely to see an opponent try to burn us, poison moves are likely to be a common answer opponents use against us.

 

[Gekokeso]

At what point exactly does a fast wall begin to have trouble at doing its job, even if it can consistently move first? What kind of progress can be feasibly made against a Pokemon of our build?

One of the hardest situations for this mon to do well is when facing hazard stack structures. Hazards in general tend to be the most foolproof of gaining progress against CAP 33, especially since they break Multiscale. Heavy duty boots does solve this problem to a certain extent but on longer battles it might be very easy to wear it down over time. Still, this should only be an issue if our stats make us rely too much on Multiscale for our bulk, and even a single Multiscale activation can come in clutch.

Status is also a big issue. Unlike hazards which are easy to maneuver using boots and good teambuilding, status is something that can be pretty problematic. Paralysis is an obvious issue considering our concept, but burn and toxic also greatly decrease the long term survivability of this mon. Poison is somewhat easy to avoid since we already get forced out by our typing, but fire attack burns and the prevalence of Thunder Wave can prove problematic when trying to switch in. The only thing that can be realistically done to mitigate this issue is making it synergise well with teammates that can absorb status for it.

What Pokemon that we expect to face have access to tools that can make serious progress against us? How might these tools shake up matchups that appear positive otherwise?

Booster energy is one of the biggest issues for 33 to deal with. Many of the mons we should be able to realistically check Like Valiant, Tusk or Iron Moth can be EV to get the needed speed boosts to outspeed 33 and win the 1v1. The aforementioned Twave from the previous question can also cause 33 to lose certain 1v1s if it lacks the power to knock its targets with a single attack.

 

[Karoshi]

What Pokemon might we struggle to do anything against, even if we have staying power against them?
As previously stated, Status and Entry Hazards are major concerns though the later can be alleviated somewhat thanks to Heavy Duty Boots. To a lesser degree, Knock off and N.Gas are as well due to CAP33's reliance on Heavy Duty Boots and the Ability Multiscale.
What Pokemon might we struggle to do anything against, even if we have staying power against them?
I worry that if CAP33 lack offensive presence we might be too passive to stop Pokemon with setup moves from just setting up in our face. The only two Pokemon I see this being a potential problem against with a CAP Viability Ranking higher then a 'B' rank is Dragonite and Gholdengo. Take that with a grain of salt due to my inexperience with CAP in this gen plus my smooth brain.

 

[mark6870]

first things first, i would like to ask to move Arghonaut from safe switch ins to favorable switch ins. Circle Throw and Knock Off, while resisted, are not moves we want to switch into. Circle Throw just breaks our Multiscale and forces us out again, meaning the next time we switch in we'd be doing it without our ability. With Knock Off, we lose our item, which is most likely HDB, meaning we take the chip damage from its Spikes every time we switch in, losing Multiscale. Of course, as a wall we shouldn't be relying on Multiscale to carry CAP33's defensive merit, which is why I believe it should be moved to Favorable switch ins, but Argh's ability to force chip damage on us, remove our item, and whittle us down with Spikes makes it not the safest switch in.
that being said it leads to the first question:

First, at what point exactly does a fast wall begin to have trouble at doing its job, even if it can consistently move first? What kind of progress can be feasibly made against a Pokemon of our build?

chip damage is good vs things that dont like to be chipped. im breaking waves here with this take for real
In all seriousness, small bouts of chip damage via entry hazards or Poison/Burn hurt CAP33 because it means Multiscale will be available to us much less frequently. In addition, Paralysis cripples us because our speed tier is essential in helping Multiscale work (we heal up to full and move before the enemy, activating multiscale to damped the power of their move) because A) the paralysis chance means we may just do nothing for a turn and take extra damage and more importantly B) Paralysis cripples our speed tier, whatever it may be, and we go from a fast immovable object to a slow movable object. Additionally, while our typing is undoubtedly fantastic, its has weaknesses to common types in Electric, Grass, and Poison. Many Pokemon run these as STAB or as coverage and we would have to play carefully around them if Multiscale is not activated.

Second, I want to discuss pressure. As a wall, we are facing the heat very frequently, so we have to consider the kinds of attacks we expect to sponge, and how some may cut into our longevity. What Pokemon that we expect to face have access to tools that can make serious progress against us? How might these tools shake up matchups that appear positive otherwise?

Knock Off is the biggest factor, IMO. Pokemon like the aforementioned Argh, Iron Valiant, and Roaring Moon all can remove our boots and get CAP33 nice and squishy so it can be KO'd. Some pokemon, like Dragonite and Hemogoblin, can pick us off with a powerul Extreme Speed before we get Multiscale back even if we are faster than them. Gliscor may be weak to our Water STAB but it has Knock Off and Toxic / Toxic Spikes to keep us in check. While we have a favorable typing vs. Astrolotl, it carries Will-o-Wisp (and who knows if CAP33 is prominent enough maybe twave astro will pick up), Taunt, and Encore, which can disable our recovery temporarily and force us to switch. I was reminded eariler that Miasmaw has Neutralizing Gas, (funny how i forgot that while staring at it in the builder AND the sample set) meaning it doesn't care about our Multiscale even when it is up and can hurt CAP33 with Gunk Shot.

There are many walls that, while they can sit around for a while, struggle to actually do anything of value to the opponent, making it easy for them to get into a position to win the game, or enable a teammate more easily. What Pokemon might we struggle to do anything against, even if we have staying power against them?

Depending on how nonthreatening offensively we are, we might be soft checked by Gliscor if it is not 2hko'd by our Water STAB. Similarly, Ting-Lu could be able to stomach our STABs with Vessel of Ruin and click Ruination or Spikes. Bulky Dragon Dance Dragonite is an issue for us, taking little from our Fairy STAB thanks to its own Multiscale and boosting up in our face with Dragon Dance and Roost.

 

[Brambane]

I will put this out there wrt Arghonaut (and U-turn while I am here.)

If our Water/Fairy-type cannot be a reliable switch-in to Arghonaut due to fear of Knock Off or Circle Throw disrupting Multiscale, then it is failing the function of its typing and role. Part of a defensive Fairy's role is to deal with Arghonaut and overly item reliant Pokemon have been and almost always will be terrible Arghonaut switch-ins. Clefable and Tornadus-T were huge players in previous metas partially since Clef could get by without an item and Torn-T was at least Spikes immune and could Regen off some chip. And they were among the best Arghonaut answers you could reasonably fit on a lot of non-HO builds (which deal with Arghonaut in others ways.)

So we are very much in the camp that Multiscale is insignificant to CAP33's gameplan enough that it can afford to be your Arghonaut switch-in, that CAP33 has two modes defined by Multiscale and a hypothetical secondary ability, or the CAP33 is just a terrible Fairy. The ladder is obviously the worst possible outcome since when our defensive Fairy-type is Knock Off, Circle Throw, and U-turn paranoid then you start to question why you are running it in the first place.

 

[Samirsin]

We haven't talked about the book of the hour! Venomicon is a special case, as theorically we can enter fairly well against it and resist its Body Presses, but Sludge Bomb might be a problem, it's super effective against us, spamabble and has a chance to inflict poison. It also is quite bulky and has access to recovery in the form of Roost. Unless we time a fast encore, depending on our bulk, Sludge Bomb might be enough to intimidate us, not because we can't survive, but because we fear being poisoned. Our Water-type attacks (due to Fairy probably not being useful in this case) might not be strong enough. In this case (without poll jumping) our moveset should reflect what we want to do in case we want to be countered by Venomicon or we want to survive or even fully counter it. If we use Covert Cloak to prevent poison we miss on Heavy-Duty Boots. A soul for a soul, one might say.

 

[shnowshner]

(A)t what point exactly does a fast wall begin to have trouble at doing its job, even if it can consistently move first? What kind of progress can be feasibly made against a Pokemon of our build?

We'll assume CAP 33 arbitrarily outspeeds everything in the game at base.

Any inability to exude pressure onto the opponent leaves us as setup bait: if we can't outright deny setup or otherwise cripple what's on the field infront of us, our Speed isn't helping at all.

Incremental damage can be a huge pain for us as we want to use our Speed to find opportunities to stay healthy throughout a match. Chip can quickly leave us unable to answer threats like we'd want to, or have us burn through any available recovery when we'd rather spend our turns doing something else.

We're quite vulnerable to VoltTurn strategies as well imo, if our desired switch-in target can pivot out on us for even 1 damage, their response is likely to force us out either through offensive pressure or preventing 33 from making progress. Should we lack a means to passively regain HP, we have both lost Multiscale and are slowly losing HP should the interaction continue. In essence, the usefulness of being fast is dependent on how many turns we get to work with, and a faster strategy like VoltTurn is going to be problematic for us in both limiting our amount of turns and wearing us down slowly over time.

It's worth noting that CAP 33, being faster than the opponent, can use recovery + Multiscale as a means of scouting intent against some unfavorable matchups: it's costly since most recovery options have 8 PP, but for matches that look to be short, it's a useful trait to have. In many cases, however, you probably don't want to stay in versus an Ogrepon or Glowking and risk taking too much damage to heal back, or getting statused in the process.

What Pokemon that we expect to face have access to tools that can make serious progress against us? How might these tools shake up matchups that appear positive otherwise?

Let's look at the lists ausma posted earlier.

Safe Switch-ins:

Zamazenta is the only one of these five that is limited to just throwing attacks our way, and I'm not super convinced in Wild Charge foiling CAP 33's. Wake is less certain given new moves, but for the most part the mon enjoys clicking STABs and nothing else. Protosynthesis is really the biggest concern: we maybe can outspeed a regular Wake, but the +1 Speed from Proto nullifies our advantage, and makes the prospect of coming in on Wake in Sun much scarier than we'd like. The last three have the dreaded Knock Off, which I need not explain further. Arghonaut and Hamurott Spiking on us is additionally problematic, especially when the latter does so as it attacks.

Favorable Switch-ins:

More Knock users in Iron Valiant, Roaring Moon, hell there's probably a Manaphy running it somewhere. Dragapult can U-Turn on us coming in, or status us if it's the Boots set, but is otherwise rather weak. I guess you can fish for SBall drops if desparate? (You probably just die to Fairy STAB.) Hemogoblin and Garchomp both have Spikes if you want to run that, and Hemo's Extreme Speed always goes before we do which can be a massive hurdle. Should mention that Quark Drive and Protosynthesis is still a problem for us, Valiant especially can be a huge pain if it's running Encore.

Ability-Dependent:

Kingambit has to try and muscle through Multiscale given its lack of utility (rocks don't count this isn't a rocker). Gholdengo can TWave or Trick us I guess, but not much else. Iron Moth both threatens us with STAB and can readily outpace us once with Quark Drive, or more with Agility, so we'd need to be careful around it. Krilowatt is either using Volt Switch every time or hard outing if it doesn't get to go first and we pressure it somehow.

Clearly a lot of our positive matchups have ways around us, and Multiscale. With adequate bulk a lot of the worse matchups get a lot better. There was some interest in Multiscale being the means of our bulk, but I think it's smartest to have Multiscale work with our bulk for situations where a threat mandates a safe response. Even then, getting outsped isn't a death sentence: Multiscale lowering damage from an initial hit still increases our OHKO and 2HKO thresholds.

What Pokemon might we struggle to do anything against, even if we have staying power against them?

Of the above mons, Manaphy, Kingambit, Krilowatt, and Gholdengo aren't terrible afraid of our STAB combo. They do get hit neutrally, which can be a problem if our neutral hits sting, but that's not a given, and bulkier sets that exist among the non-Kril ones could just sit on us for a good while and waste our PP or start setting up. Tera complicates some matchups further: many of the above Pokemon can use neutral or resistant Teras, like our own Water or Fairy typings, to remove weaknesses and go about their business.

Other potentially annoying mons (tera not included):

Neither seems likely to beat the other but Dozo could be more favored in the PP Stall war.
Could be bothered by us if our Special Attack is decent, but likely isn't going to be.
Water STAB is an issue, but if there was ever a mon that can just eat SE hits and find an avenue to make progress it's Libra.
Not breaking us but Pressure is a huge pain.
Clefable.

 

[ausma]

Hi everyone, it's finally time to wrap up this stage. Thank you all for being so dilligent and patient. I now have a threatlist fully cooked up, with some added thoughts on how we should be approaching our defensive strengths.

First and foremost, it seems fairly agreed upon that a lot of the merit of our ability to be a switch-in comes from actually wanting to switch in CAP 33 throughout a game. Preserving it for the "perfect moment" so to speak is a poor idea as it means we're running a Pokemon with fairly situational value whose defensive aspects are meant to accentuate the quality of that perfect execution. Our typing and previously established versatile build, fundamentally, should be something that we can turn to in most reactive situations, and use to convert a disadvantageous situation into one that we can use to create progress. As such, I would like to put down a couple points to work by going forward:

1: We should not be afraid of Knock Off nor hazards

While Multiscale may make it seem like taking these moves is extra undesirable, we have to remember that our defensive profile lends well to actually sustaining this style of pressure in the first place. No Pokemon likes to take on Knock Off, even defensive Pokemon, but with our resistances and positive matchups into an overwhelming amount of Knock Off users, being afraid of this move means we greatly limit the potential applications of CAP 33. As for hazards, the same general principle applies. We will have to accept that we are going to have to deal with hazards, but that shouldn't be something we should fear. Our Speed tier's power is a major factor here, especially in regards to Multiscale's general application; as long as we provide CAP 33 options to be resilient without an item a la Gen 8 Clefable or Toxapex, we will be fine.

2: We should have options to apply consistent pressure as a wall

Many people expressed concerns with passivity, and this is something I agree with. SE STABs are helpful for locking down 1v1s, but with the nuances of Booster Energy Iron Valiant, raw bulk, and Good As Gold for example, we need to be able to have options to apply pressure with our walling style so that we can function more consistently. This pressure can apply especially in wall vs wall matchups, too, such that we can take an opportunity to threaten progress. This should overall help secure most of our positive offensive matchups and make us consistent at our role while also letting us operate in the face of resilient defensive threats as well.

To be clear, this point is not direct offensive pressure, per se, but moreso the idea of being able to threaten progress or accentuate our walling abilities via status or disruption, for example.
___

So now with all of this in consideration, here is my final threatlist.


Safe Switch-ins:

Favorable Switch-ins:

Uncertain Switch-ins:

Risky Switch-ins:

C&C:

A couple notes:

• I opted to rebrand "Ability Dependent" to "Uncertain". These are all Pokemon that we have the capacity to check, heavily with the help of Multiscale, but are entirely dependent on other factors we do not know yet. It is determined by what moves we will have, what side of the spectrum we will be hitting on, how fast we will ultimately be, and the game state. This captures Gholdengo, Manaphy, and Kingambit more accurately, while letting us gauge Pokemon like Miasmaw and Equilibra that we should also be considering. Do bear in mind this category still has the same assessment criteria wrt build assessment: do not prioritize them, but it's cool if an idea organically helps us handle them a bit better.
• The new categories (Risky and C&C) are picked up from Part 2 of this discussion. These Pokemon all have the tools to be resilient into us, commonly run debilitating status-dealing options, or are Pokemon we outright lose to by merit of our weaknesses. Status, however, is the big one as it's easily the thing we need to be most careful of navigating. I wanted to address our ability to potentially pressure some of these Pokemon, but also recognize that they can easily ruin us in return (Gliscor with Toxic being the most obvious example).

___

With that, I wanted to thank you all for being patient with this stage. It's time to move on and get started with Defining Moves. Scizivire will take the baton from here!