CAP Updates: Syclant Discussion (Complete)

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That's not really a surprise, I just had hoped people would make more of an effort. I'm not trying to say one is "correct" but rather 'more accurate' and in doing so merely putting forth reasons why. At the end of the day, it comes down to community consensus bar none. Hopefully Snow Cloak will be slated as well.
 

OLD GREGG (im back baby)

old gregg for life
Inner Focus would be flavorful. There is a precedent for Ice types to receive this ability with Glalie and Sneasel, so it's not really a stretch. It fits Syclant's mixed attacking stats well similar to Lucario and Meinshao. It has little impact competitively but could potentially be useful to get off a hit in the event something faster is going to try to break your Sash with Fake Out and get the KO before you can move; not even many things capable of this. Certainly poses no competition to Compound Eyes or Mountaineer.
 

snake

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Alright guys I've got a slate for you!

Clear Body
Hyper Cutter
Ice Body
Inner Focus
Snow Cloak
Unnerve

No Hidden Ability

I ultimately decided against Sniper and Swarm because we have a perfectly fine slate of abilities that fit Syclant's design but have effectively zero competitive impact. Expect a poll up shortly.
 

snake

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While the poll for the Hidden Ability goes, we will have 48 hours to talk about consistency moves. Remember that Syclant is an extremely versatile threat in the metagame, so moves should have limited competitive impact. After 48 hours, updated movepool submissions will be open for 48 hours. Please do NOT post movepools (WIPs included) until then. You are free to start creating your movepool sub until then, so here is Syclant's current movepool. Note that Syclant is in only the Bug Egg Group.

What moves fit Syclant's design or typing and why?
What moves would Syclant get by move tutors or by other means?
Why do these moves have minimal competitive impact?
 

G-Luke

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I'll answer these questions in a later post, but I think we need to address the elephant in the room - Icicle Crash.

Strong, good chance of flinching and overall vastly surperior to any physical Ice Type attack available in Syclant's movepool, the potential addition of Icicle Crash will surely impact Syclant's viability, but is that something we want?
 
Alright, another Gen 4 mon. Have fun with TMs and Tutors movepool designers. Here's my analysis from a cursory glance through at gen 5, 6, and 7 moves.

Gen V
Bulldoze - 1 to 1 with EQ; strictly inferior
Chip Away - Syclant can destroy glaciers with their sharp forelimbs, I could see this matching up here; terrible coverage move due to weak bp and normal typing
Frost Breath - 1 to 1 with ice types bar forms of non-ice types, Kyurem, Weavile, and Mamo lines; Same effective power as Ice Beam, but with a chance to miss... mostly inferior
Struggle Bug - Gen 5 and 6 TM, Very strong correlation with bug types; Strictly worse than Bug Buzz

Gen VI
Fell Stinger - Associated with sharp claws and points on bug types (see vespiquen, paras, etc.); basically outclassed physically by SD X-Scissor/Leech Life, though it may see a niche set use
Infestation - Decent correlation with bug types; weak in base power, but the trapping effect may be a problem?
-
Freeze Dry - HARD NO TO THIS - Screws with Syclant's resists very much so while still being almost as powerful as Ice Beam. After a Tail Glow, that sh*t gets dangerous son!

Gen VII
Aurora Veil - It's an Ice type? That seems to be the only relevant criteria seeing how Sandslash-A and Delibird get it (And also Mew?); Syclant lacks auto-hail, making the move practically worthless on such a frail mon.

Other Moves of Interest:

As G-Luke already noted, the biggest priority should be Icicle Crash. It's a strong Ice move that beefs up physical sets nicely from Gen 5. Right now it's only rocking out with Ice Punch, so decisions must be made. I personally don't lean one way or the other at the moment. Another Move I will throw in as well here to match with this though is Hone Claws. I would suggest it as a Gen 5 move, as it's strictly inferior to Swords Dance given the only affected move is really Stone Edge (Ice Punch, EQ, Leech Life and X-Scissor don't miss), which is usually split with Superpower on sets. Icicle Crash however, with its low accuracy, changes how effective that accuracy boost is to Syclant's STABs. Obviously Icicle Crash is the more pressing issue, but it is worth noting there is a seemingly flavorful addition to be careful of combined with it.
 

jas61292

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I'll answer these questions in a later post, but I think we need to address the elephant in the room - Icicle Crash.

Strong, good chance of flinching and overall vastly surperior to any physical Ice Type attack available in Syclant's movepool, the potential addition of Icicle Crash will surely impact Syclant's viability, but is that something we want?
While there are a lot of potentially competitive moves that might come up for Syclant, I do agree that one of the most pertinent to discuss is Icicle Crash. This is a move that is absurdly flavorful. I mean, Syclant's very name is a combination of "icicle" and "ant." Yeah, yeah, I know it doesn't have Icicle Spear, which existed at the time, but that could potentially be attributed to the fact that it looks like its name was decided on after the movepool, unlike in today's process. Whether or not that is something we want to change is a different matter altogether, but suffice it to say that I think Icicle Crash is a fantastic flavor move.

So, with that being said, as this is a consistency update, if a new move is very fitting, then the question really is: is there a competitive or conceptual/identity reason not to give the move? Yes, Icicle Crash is a competitive upgrade for Syclant, but Pokemon frequently are buffed in generational updates. The question is whether or not it goes too far. In this case, I do not think it goes too far at all, for a few different reasons.

First, and most simply, Icicle Crash Syclant is not going to be too powerful for the metagame. Syclant is good because it has a nice combination of speed and coverage. Its not the strongest thing and has plenty of flaws. Icicle Crash does not change this at all. This is not some super move we are talking about here. It is an 85 Base Power Move, that is a slight upgrade on what it already has. It will still be weaker than a special set using Ice Beam. It is a slight general improvement that does help make a physical set a bit better, but really doesn't change much at all about how Syclant functions.

Second, it is important to remember that Syclant wasn't intentionally limited to only Ice Punch because it was weak. Rather, Ice Punch was the strongest physical Ice move in existence (Icicle Spear was base power 10 in gen 4). Syclant was made to be a mixed attacker, but really, it has always leaned towards special attacking because its special STABs have always been stronger, a big deal when your offensive stats are only good, not great. Icicle Crash help remedy this a bit by balancing out its offensive options a bit more, bringing it more in line with its original design goal.

Finally, on a bit of a more silly note, while Syclant didn't have a real concept as we know them today, it is generally been said that its "concept" was to beat Garchomp. As an offensive Ice type that outspeeds Garchomp, beating it was never really a question. However, back when it was made, Garchomp was a fast offensive mon. 102 base was so much more impressive than today. Furthermore, Rough Skin, Dragon Tail and Rocky Helmet all were yet to exist. Simply put, Garchomp didn't run defensive sets like you sometimes will see today, and as such, any Syclant could pretty much be guaranteed to OHKO any Garchomp (bar Yache Berry). But, nowadays, if a physical Syclant comes up against a defensive Garchomp, it must be running a boosting item to secure that KO. With Icicle Crash... well, you are still not guaranteeing it without a boosting item, but.... its like a 50% chance instead of 0%, which is a big improvement. Yeah, yeah, this is totally irrelevant and silly, but it just makes it feel right to me.

Anyways though, I really do think that Icicle Crash is both fitting, and not problematic for Syclant in the slightest and should absolutely be allowed.
 
I just want to state that I don't see any issue with giving Icicle Crash to Syclant. If you remember, this was the move that even brought us to the notion that Consistency updates may actually have competitive implications, if they don't interfere with roles and significant matchups. Icicle Crash most probably doesn't.
There's also the striking resemblance to Weavile on the physical side of Syclant and it was coming to Gen7 that brought Weavile the gift of Icicle Crash. I consider that so hard of a "consistency must" that it would need serious competitive reasons NOT to add Icicle Crash. I don't see them and other, more experienced CAPpers like Jas directly above me don't see them either.

Other than that, I like Okamu's list of moves, including the stop to Freeze-Dry. Admittedly, I consider Fell Stinger dangerous as well, given the Speed and power of Syclantwhen hitting this and its access to one of the most useful priorities to abuse the boost in STAB Ice Shard. Forcing to avoid sacs is the power of Moxie/Beast Boost mons and giving this power to Syclant would IMO lead to very dangerous situations with the bug forcing too many 50-50s threatening the battle.
 
I've got a few I'd also like to bring up. Gen V brought a whole host of options, which may be acceptable on Syclant. That said, I've linked some that I think are good to go without too much issue, and some that could do with a beadier eye
than mine.

One question I'd like to address is Leech Life - it's now a reliable, fast dangerous recovery move to give it sustain that it doesn't have through the notable exclusion of Roost or Moonlight/Morning Sun etc. Combined with the possibility of Ice Body to provide chip healing, it can stay in far longer than was ever envisioned at inception, and makes a Life Orb set very easy to run. I've not actually used a physical Syclant set since 7th, so I'm fresh out of ideas. I don't think it has the bulk to continually sustain in the manner that an SD Buzzwole can, but it also has the speed so that it doesn't necessarily have to.

Acrobatics; even Grubbin/Charjabug gets this. I mean, you could say that it gets pumped with electrical energy when it dumps its item load, but Vikavolt is hardly considered to be something that's so overwhelmingly quick. Sky Drop and Roost are its only other Flying type moves, and Sky Drop certainly fits within the scale of update at least. And at 5'7, which is taller than my GF, and seems certainly within the realms of possibility, if not necessarily competitive. Roost however isn't already included so I see no reason to give this already speedy lethal mon easy recovery.

Chip Away; Without STAB, it's not exactly something that's there to write home about. Chip Away to me makes a lot of sense that an extremely offensive attacker like Syclant could use, and chipping away at ice type prey certainly makes sense.
Final Gambit; it's a bit of an odd one, but Ants tend to be slightly suicidal for their queen. Mon like Staraptor, and Nincada can learn it (Nincada through breeding, which shares a bug type). It's not viable at all really, especially considering its low HP max and desire to Life Orb things. That said, whether it fits the flavour of Syclant (we've denied Swarm as an option, and it doesn't feel like colony kinda bugmon at my interpretation, meaning it's less at liberty to sacrifice itself) is up in the air, and I'll leave it to the Hive Mind (see! See what I did there!) to decide if it fits. I'll also suggest Infestation to fall under this umbrella - although this feels like it has a more competitive limitation in that such a fast mon being able to trap opponents doesn't leave me entirely confident in its inclusion.

Frost Breath; A possible alternative to Ice Beam, but there aren't many SpD walls that can withstand an Ice Beam. Could help try and cut through something like a Calm Mind'er, but then that leaves it open to Pyroak who can OHKO with a Lava Plume. Can learn as an egg move from Araquanid/Golisopod, though, which could make a Tail Glow+Frost Breath option unavailable if that's something people are worried about.

Razor Shell; A very underwhelming move, but Compound Eyes (or Hone Claws) gives it the accuracy it needs. However with only a 50% chance to debuff, and coverage with Ice/Ground, lacking a STAB it's not going to be doing a preferable option when you could simply take Swords Dance and Earthquake/[Ice Move of Choice here]. As for why it would have it, it's a mon with Razor Sharp Ice Claws that form part of its exoskeleton, which is a good enough reason for Golisopod to have it. I'd argue that it could be an egg move for it.

Smack Down; With Mountaineer, it could do with some rock type moves. This lets it hit hard against Delibird, knocking them out of the sky which feels like an especially brutal way to go about it. I feel that this is pure flavour, personally, due to its low BP, non STAB, and even with such a fast Earthquake as coverage, it would also be something that causes too much fuss. 2x Ice Punch is a much better move though against Flying types, even on something like Zapdos.

Fell Stinger; Could be used to help set up, but Leech Life and Swords Dance is more reliable for setting up though. Straight Downgrade IMHO.

Throat Chop; It's already a really brutal mon, and this can help really encourage that "the user attacks the targets throat". As a bug type, it already hits hard against Ghost (although Gengar might not appreciate it) and Psychic, and without STAB it's a flat downgrade from Leech Life, unless you're fighting Fire or Steel types where Ice cannot help either.


Dual Chop; It's an Ice Type, but even invested into attack (252+), it struggles to break through a Kyurem-B (although is a guaranteed 2HKO compared to Ice Beam which has a min roll of 48.8%); and Kyurem-B can Outrage OHKO or Fusion Bolt OHKO after Life Orb recoil anyway. However, given a free switch into CharX, a Life Orb, 252+ Att Syclant will cause CharX to faint itself after a Flare Blitz with Dual Chop. With SD it can OHKO, but that's equivalent to a +2 Ice Beam or Earth Power anyway, so it's not as though it's a rough match up. It also gives a Fairy something like Clefable a chance to come in and being to wall up while threatening a OHKO Flamethrower on a double switch (and Icicle Crash is a 3HKO anyway). With its 90% Accuracy also, Compound Eyes would give it 100% accuracy (117%), but then leaves it open to Stealth Rocks which it doesn't like a LOrber with 4x weakness.

Hone Claws; I think this is pretty much a given for a suggestion, so I might as well state it. It's got SD and Compound Eyes, already. That said, with the +1 from Hone Claws, it can gain the Compound Eyes Accuracy buff without needing to forego Stealth Rock immunity, and Dual Chop CharX for OHKO with 252+ (+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Syclant Dual Chop (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 318-374 (107 - 125.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO), where CharX previously would win vs Ice Punch (or even Icicle Crash provided it was uninjured)

Quiver Dance; I'm really unsure about this, especially with some other suggestions, such as Infestation providing chip and trapping. Simply including because it's a Bug Type special attack with Tail Glow. However, at +1 it's 562 and at +2 it's 750, which means that Priority or flat out being able to tank the hits is going to be the way forward (Pyroak).

Parting Shot; Tentatively. We have U-Turn on it already, and it's kind of Kerfluffle's thing. However, I'm a little unsure of the competitive implications too much on such a fast mon. It's not like it can continually do it, however, but it gives a LO Syclant the ability to hurt the offense of one or two mon who threaten it, allowing it to keep the team's momentum. Without Mountaineer, I wouldn't have a problem suggesting it, but sadly, it does have SR immunity which makes it less dangerous.

Accelerock/First Impression; It's already fast leaving Priority many mon's only true counter to it, but it's not STAB. It does however already lack other Priority elsewhere, and, well, it's Accelerock. And First Impression is just begging for a Choice Band set. If Stamina or Coil on Malaconda ever becomes a thing for it, it's a decent stop.
252+ Atk Life Orb Syclant First Impression vs. +2 252 HP / 252 Def Malaconda: 421-499 (97 - 114.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Syclant First Impression vs. +3 252 HP / 252 Def Malaconda: 388-460 (89.4 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
High Horsepower; Maybe more humour than anything, that a bug has high horsepower, but this is a 5'7" Bug, which can cause Earthquakes and has an attack comparable to Golurk, Snorlax and Mudsdale.

Spotlight; Giving itself free set ups in doubles may not exactly be balanced.

Strength Sap; reliable recovery doesn't really feel like a good thing, but it's fragile, and doesn't actually do damage. The question is whether Leech Life is going to be a thing still providing it sustain - if yes, I don't particularly see why Strength Sap shouldn't be a thing (although would heartily suggest against Parting Shot to prevent a Strength Sap + Parting Shot combination).
 
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snake

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Remember everyone, we aren't aiming to improve Syclant's competitive viability in these updates. Syclant is plenty viable. We just want to give it fitting flavor moves and make it look like a Generation 7 Pokemon. Good discussion overall so far though.

Here are a couple other questions I have:

Given Icicle Crash's general support, is Icicle Spear a move we want to consider? While these moves do not necessarily imply each other, many Icicle Crash users also get Icicle Spear.

Is Fell Stinger a move we should consider adding? The most relevant users of the move (Mega Beedrill and Buzzwole) do not get priority, and Syclant gets Ice Shard.

Infestation's trapping effect has been referred to a couple of times. Should we add this move?
 
I think Infestation has no competitive use on Syclant, Necturna was an exception because of her unique movepool. Even with Aurumoth, one of the most powerful CAPs, it was decided that this move would have no impact, and here it's not different, a weak trapping move is just not worth the moveslot.

Fell Stinger is in the same boat, while a +3 boost in Attack is scary, Syclant already has a much more reliable way of boosting its physical offense in Sword Dance.

Icicle Spear it's more of a grey area, as it can be used to break Substitutes, and I can see it being very useful against SubCoil Zygarde, it has a 33% of having a stronger Base Power than Icicle Crash, and having perfect accuracy is nice too, although I doubt it'll be used over the more reliable IC most of the time.
I don't think this is strong enough to deserve a ban, but it should be considered carefully.
 

Deck Knight

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Icicle Spear is around the same power as Ice Punch in most situations except that instead of freezing it breaks Subs. It's not reliable enough of a power boost even at max to consider out of bounds, especially since Syclant's special sets have access to the much more reliably powerful Ice Beam. Icicle Crash is more powerful and great with Compoundeyes to patch up its accuracy and get more reliable flinches out of it, but giving up Mountaineer for that privilege is a tough choice.

Fell Stinger is way too situational to be that useful. It needs an Attack boost first to be threatening and it's only mediocre as a finishing move. Infestation has been mentioned in several updates, the thing is Syclant just doesn't have the defenses to utilize trapping effectively.

Freeze-Dry and Roost (this move is used when Syclant pressures an opponent out to recover LO recoil and keep attacking, even if Roost never outheals damage it is still incredibly dangerous) are nuts on Syclant.

Honestly I think the only Mountaineer sort of flavored move we should give Syclant is Rock Climb, which would make it one of the few natural users and have no competitive implications, additional coverage, etc.
 

OLD GREGG (im back baby)

old gregg for life
I'd like to see Ice Fang. Syclant can clearly make use of biting moves because it has Bug Bite; I don't know why it doesn't have Ice Fang but seems like a good fit. Relatively weak and outclassed by other physical options Syclant already learns.
 
I support Icicle Crash, Icicle Spear, Fell Stinger, and Rock Climb. All our flavorful, and in Icicle Crash it would help out Syclant's physical set that has long been neglected thanks to low base power moves.

I just want to say though that I believe Syclant should absolutely not get anything like Accelerock, Quiver Dance, Freeze-Dry, or other notably competitive moves. Especially Freeze Dry, considering that Water types like Rotom-W are among the few Pokemon that can actually switch into the coverage of Ice Beam, Earth Power, and Bug Buzz, thanks to the extremely lethal "Mamoswine STAB" combination of moves that goes nearly unresisted.

Redacted: Honestly, I wish Syclant could have Earth Power removed, but I realize that's low odds of happening and is a tad risky of a choice.
 
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snake

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Just making this clear: Syclant will be experiencing no move removals in this update. Syclant is versatile, but not overwhelming.
 
Razor Shell; [...] As for why it would have it, it's a mon with Razor Sharp Ice Claws that form part of its exoskeleton, which is a good enough reason for Golisopod to have it. I'd argue that it could be an egg move for it.
Razor Shell is currently restricted to Water-types, though, so unless it receives some competitive support I don't feel it should be considered a flavour addition.

A move which would fit a predatory bug (currently available to Mothim, Araquanid, Masquerain, Buzzwole and Pheromosa) but might have too much utility is Lunge. Syclant has some kind of horn, so I guess Smart Strike could fit, but its coverage might be too useful (I assume Megahorn was purposefully avoided). Brutal Swing is available to Scyther, Pinsir and Beedrill, among others, and is weak. Dazzling Gleam somewhat fits Tail Glow, considering Volbeat, but again, it would add coverage.
 

snake

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Sorry for the delay, but movepool submissions are now up! As an aside, Ice Body won the Hidden Ability poll. Below are the required moves list and the blacklist:

Required: Universal TMs

Blacklist: Freeze Dry, Megahorn, any other ridiculously competitive moves, stronger coverage moves

Note that Struggle Bug and Frost Breath are generally universal on their respective types, but not 100%.

Put WIP at the top of your post, and then Final Submission anytime after the 24 hour warning. You've got 48 hours unless there's still more work to be done on movepools by the 24 hour warning (I'll give a 24 hour warning extension if that happens.
 
Final Submission

- Fury Cutter
- Leer
- Absorb
Evolution: Ice Punch
5 Ice Shard
9 Focus Energy
14 Fury Attack
18 Icy Wind
22 Slash
27 Icicle Spear
32 X-Scissor
37 Hail
43 Icicle Crash
48 Bug Buzz
53 Rock Climb
59 Avalanche
64 Sheer Cold
(pre-evolution: Ice Beam (also a TM))
- Syclant now follows a 4-4-5 level patterns, with evolutionary delays after level 30 (Syclar's current agreed evolution level). (Small note, Syclar's current agreed movepool includes Ice Beam which is replaced by Avalanche for Syclant.)
- Fury Attack is rarely a level 1 move, so it has been moved later and its spot was taken by Fury Cutter, which fits a bug proficient with slashing and is learned at level 1 by the somewhat similar-looking Dwebble and Fomantis.
- Consistently with other G7 updates, Leech Life has been replaced by Absorb. Few Pokémon with this substitution keep Leech Life by levelling up, so I have removed it from the level-up movepool and moved it to TMs.
- Some other moves were shuffled to try to somewhat alternate Ice, Bug and Normal offensive moves in the movepool.
- Icicle Crash is a strong physical Ice-type move which has been already discussed. Same for Icicle Spear which fits a Pokémon with icicles as part of its body (note that Syclar has icicles too).
- Rock Climb is new, as I think it fits Mountaineer especially well. It also forms some kind of a duo with Avalanche (climb mountains, then make blocks of snow/ice fall from them).

Bug Bite (Durant)
Chip Away (Heracross)
Counter (Heracross)
Double-Edge (Karrablast)
Earth Power
Entrainment (Durant)
Mimic (several transferred Pokémon)
Pin Missile
Signal Beam (Volbeat)
Spikes
Superpower
Tail Glow
- Mimic, Counter and Double-Edge are those old weird G3 tutors.
- Entrainment is learned by fellow -ant Durant and shared by a few other Bug-types, and has little use.
- Chip Away is available to several Pokémon with spiky protrusions (remember, even Syclar has icicles on its body) or claws/pincers like Rhyhorn, Tyranitar, Heracross, Krabby, Corphish and both Sandslashes, fits a vicious and relentless predator and could be interpreted as Syclar eroding rocks "little by little" (which is how Bulbapedia translates Chip Away's Japanese name).
- Signal Beam is related to Tail Glow and mostly inferior to Bug Buzz. As a precedent, some Pokémon (Goldeen, Trapinch, Finneon) did not learn it in G4 but gained it as an egg/tutor move in later generations.
- Bug Bite is also a tutor, and fits Syclar/Syclant's prominent jaws (consider similar-looking cases like Durant and Grubbin). As a precedent, Trapinch got it as a tutor but not an egg move in HGSS and gained it as an egg move in G5.

TM06 Toxic
TM07 Hail
TM10 Hidden Power
TM12 Taunt
TM13 Ice Beam
TM14 Blizzard
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance
TM21 Frustration
TM26 Earthquake
TM27 Return
TM28 Leech Life
TM31 Brick Break
TM32 Double Team
TM42 Facade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM48 Round
TM52 Focus Blast
TM54 False Swipe
TM56 Fling
TM58 Endure
TM59 Brutal Swing
TM68 Giga Impact
TM71 Stone Edge
TM72 Avalanche
TM75 Swords Dance
TM78 Bulldoze
TM79 Frost Breath
TM80 Rock Slide
TM81 X-Scissor
TM82 Sleep Talk
TM87 Swagger
TM88 Sleep Talk
TM89 U-turn
TM90 Substitute
TM100 Confide
- Sleep Talk has changed number, Leech Life is a removed level-up move.
- Confide and Round are universal.
- Bulldoze is implied by Earthquake.
- Frost Breath is almost universal among Ice-types, being missed only by a few markedly physical ones like Weavile and Mamoswine, and is roughly equivalent to Ice Beam. Fellow Bugs Araquanid and Golisopod also have it.
- Brutal Swing is learned, among others, by the similar-looking Beedrill and Escavalier; the new coverage it allows shouldn't be immensely relevant as it's pretty weak (60) and the only Pokémon hit harder by Brutal Swing than by anything else (Bug/Ice STAB/Stone Edge/Earthquake), even considering Z-moves, should be Frillish (NFE), Jellicent (lower than 300th place in the latest stats), confined Hoopa (doubly weak but frail and, again, lower than 300th) and Lunala (doubly weak but Uber).

Bug Bite
Counter
Double-Edge
Earth Power
Focus Punch
Fury Cutter (G4, also a new level-up move)
Ice Punch
Icy Wind
Mimic
Signal Beam
Snore
String Shot (G4)
Superpower
Water Pulse
- Usual note about removed G3 tutors.
- Focus Punch and Water Pulse are old TMs.
- Signal Beam is also a new egg move.

Captivate (G4 TM78)
Cut (HM01)
Hone Claws (G5/6 TM01)
Natural Gift (G4 TM83)
Rock Smash (G4/ORAS HM06 / G5/XY TM94)
Secret Power (G4 TM43 / ORAS TM94)
Silver Wind (G4 TM62)
Strength (HM04)
Struggle Bug (G5/6 TM76)
- Hone Claws is widespread among clawed Pokémon and mostly outclassed by Swords Dance, especially on Compound Eyes sets.
- Struggle Bug is almost universal on Bug-types.

------

Some moves considered but skipped:
- Aurora Veil would have fit a Pokémon based on ice crystals (at least, some crystal-based Pokémon get it), but it got vetoed.
- Lunge would have fit a Bug-type predator, but its current distribution is kind of unclear and again, it got vetoed.
- Infestation has some distribution among Bug-type predators, but its trapping capability could be problematic and it is not strictly required.
- Many Bug-types get Electroweb, but it is not a strict requirement and it would add (weak) coverage; notably, it is not implied by String Shot considering Volcarona and many Pokémon (Parasect, Venomoth, Pinsir...) which only get String Shot as a G4 tutor (like Syclant itself).
- Acrobatics is kind of ambiguous flavour-wise, but anyway a potential 110 BP is kind of high for a consistency move.
 
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snake

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While the poll for the Hidden Ability goes, we will have 48 hours to talk about consistency moves. Remember that Syclant is an extremely versatile threat in the metagame, so moves should have limited competitive impact. After 48 hours, updated movepool submissions will be open for 48 hours. Please do NOT post movepools (WIPs included) until then. You are free to start creating your movepool sub until then, so here is Syclant's current movepool. Note that Syclant is in only the Bug Egg Group.

What moves fit Syclant's design or typing and why?
What moves would Syclant get by move tutors or by other means?
Why do these moves have minimal competitive impact?
snake_rattler can you link the origibal movepool?
:)
 
Finalized just in case, but I'd appreciate reasoning for/against a couple potential additions:
- Poison Jab is common among Pokémon with any sort or stringer/protrusion, but it adds coverage.
- Lunge is sparsely distributed but consistent with a predatory bug, but its Attack-lowering effect could prove troublesome.
- Aurora Veil fits an Ice-type with crystals, but has a very strong effect albeit in a weak weather.
- Hone Claws is widespread among clawed Pokémon and outclassed by Swords Dance with Compound Eyes, but it might be overwhelming with Mountaineer.
- Acrobatics and Steel Wing add new potentially useful coverage.
 
Hone Claws is dangerous. Yes it only boosts Attack by 1 stage. However, it essentially allows Syclant to have two competitive abilities at the same time. No thanks.
 

snake

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Hone Claws is dangerous. Yes it only boosts Attack by 1 stage. However, it essentially allows Syclant to have two competitive abilities at the same time. No thanks.
Hone Claws isn't dangerous at all. You take up a moveslot, you actually have to set up, and the moves it wants to boost (Focus Blast and Blizzard) don't even get their power buffed.

Syclant @ Life Orb
Ability: Mountaineer
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hone Claws
- Blizzard
- Focus Blast
- U-turn

Syclant @ Life Orb
Ability: Compound Eyes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Blizzard
- Focus Blast
- Earth Power
- U-turn

As for a physical set, you /could/ buff Icicle Crash's accuracy from 90% to 117%, but why would you run that over Swords Dance?

Syclant @ Life Orb
Ability: Mountaineer
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance / Hone Claws
- Icicle Crash
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard / Leech Life

Hone Claws is fine.
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All
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Final Submission

0 Absorb
0 Leer
0 Powder Snow
Evo Move: Ice Punch
4 Ice Shard
8 Focus Energy
16 Fury Attack
20 Icy Wind
24 Icicle Spear
28 Slash
34 X-Scissor
42 Hail
46 Icicle Crash
50 Rock Climb
56 Bug Buzz
60 Avalanche
66 Sheer Cold

So I realised that Syclant, like most gen 4 CAPs, needed a major revamp in terms of movepool. I implored a simple every fourth level pattern for level up moves, and a couple evotionary delays as well. A couple move levels were switched around, so that Fury Attack was learnt a bit later as most mons do, and the weak Icy Wind could be learnt before other more powerful attacks were learnt. I replaced Leech Life with Absorb, as how GF did with most mons this generation. I also added the move Powder Snow. Its a early Ice type attack many Ice types learn via level up, so it seemed fitting.
Icicle Spear was well discussed and generally agreed upon to be a fitting move flavourwise. Icicle Crash was also agreed upon to be a fitting attack for Syclant, and as it is a more powerful Ice type move, I added it later down in the levels. I turned Rock Climb into a level up move as it fits so well with the flavour story of the Syclant line, plus with Mountaineer being one of its abilities.

TM06 Toxic
TM07 Hail
TM10 Hidden Power
TM12 Taunt
TM13 Ice Beam
TM14 Blizzard
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance
TM21 Frustration
TM26 Earthquake
TM27 Return
TM28 Leech Life
TM31 Brick Break
TM32 Double Team
TM42 Facade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM48 Round
TM52 Focus Blast
TM54 False Swipe
TM56 Fling
TM59 Brutal Swing
TM68 Giga Impact
TM71 Stone Edge
TM72 Avalanche
TM75 Swords Dance
TM78 Bulldoze
TM79 Frost Breath

TM80 Rock Slide
TM81 X-Scissor
TM87 Swagger
TM88 Sleep Talk
TM89 U-turn
TM90 Substitute
TM100 Confide

Confide and Round are universal TMs.
Bulldoze matchups with Earthquake. Frost Breath is a universal TM for Ice types. Brutal Swing fits for a "brutal" looking Pokemon

Counter
Double-Edge

Earth Power
Entrainment
Fell Stinger

Fury Cutter
Pin Missile
Signal Beam
Spikes
String Shot
Superpower
Tail Glow

Moved Double-Edge and Counter to Egg moves. Added Entrainment and Fell Stinger as Stinger has plenty support, while Entrainment is by no means a competitive move. Signal Beam matches up with Tail Glow flavourwise as well, so it got drafted. Moved String Shot and Fury Cutter from move tutors.

Bug Bite
Earth Power
Electroweb
Focus Punch
Ice Punch
Icy Wind
Signal Beam
Snore
Superpower
Water Pulse

Focus Punch and Water Pulse are moved from TMs. Electroweb got added as everything with String Shot learns Electroweb. Signal Beam got duplicated from egg moves.

Captivate (G4 TM78)
Cut (HM01)
Endure (G4 TM56)
Hone Claws (G5/6 TM01)
Natural Gift (G4 TM83)
Rock Smash (G4/ORAS HM06 / G5/XY TM94)
Secret Power (G4 TM43 / ORAS TM94)
Silver Wind (G4 TM)
Strength (HM04)
Struggle Bug (G5/6 TM76)

Struggle Bug is a universal TM for bugs and Hone Claws is common on slashing Pokemon.
 
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I'd just like to point out that Hone Claws boosting Icicle Crash's accuracy is a moot point. You're better off running Swords Dance and Ice Punch if you're afraid of missing because a +2 Ice Punch is stronger than a +1 Icicle Crash. The only real reason to run Hone Claws would be for Stone Edge, and the power drop compared to Swords Dance is significant, so it's not worth it.
 
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