This thread will be based mainly on the opinions expressed by many of us, including in the thread on the new wcop 2024 format (https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/wcop-format-tiers.3737157/), but also on Amaranth 's thoughts in "The identity of WCoP" (https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-identity-of-wcop.3727503/).
I have the impression that this is a recurring problem, but that for some obscure reason, debates questioning the eligibility of players lead nowhere.
My wish is that a well-considered and fair decision is taken based on our reflections.
As Amaranth said, teams have been created "so everyone is eligible to a team that's at least somewhat competitive":
"1. We split the US teams in 4 for balance
2. We create the main Continental Teams (Latin America, Europe, Asia)
2.b We allow New Zealand + Australia for Oceania, and Africa"
From the outset, it was always intended that continental teams should be accessible only to players without competitive teams.
The problem is that this freedom has been abused :
Countries have found it extremely difficult to create teams (let's forget competitive ones) due to a lack of players, even more so because some eligible players prefer the easy way out and self-interest (whether linked to friendships or an ambition to perform).
I understand that it's not easy to turn down an all-star team, but it seems to me that, by its very nature, a World Cup is supposed to oppose countries.
Otherwise, don't call it a World Cup. As a result, we find ourselves with inequalities in player recruitment between all the teams.
I couldn't find better words than Amaranth on the subject through his "Viewpoint B: FIGHT FOR YOUR COUNTRY!!!" :
Despite our qualification, we still see Belgian players at Europe. Why? As mentioned above, the door to Team Europe was opened to them so that they could play in a competitive team... "Hello, we're here!"
From a logical and purely fair point of view, they no longer have any reason to ignore their country. If they don't want to join the Belgian team, that's not an issue. But what right do they have to stay in Europe? Either they don't play in the WCoP and can invest in other projects, or they join their rightful country.
Allowing them to play for Europe is breaking obvious rules linked to tournaments between nations, and blocking slots for other players who are really looking for a team to play with, not being attached to any competitive country.
Here are the arguments I see being used by European players in response to those allegations from players waiting for fair rules (and my ""answers"" to them):
"In WCoP you're supposed to play for the same team every year, with the same pool of players." Really? I'm learning things... based on what? Each team is developping each year. It's part of this tournament to see how nations grow and expend, with some line ups completely changing every year.
"In these tournaments, you only get to play with the same friends year after year..." Welcome to Friends Cup 2024. Again refer to the answer I just gave.
"Yet in this thread it is unironically being suggested that players like Mana and ZoroDark, who have been playing for and bonded with the same team since, respectively, 2017 and 2013, should leave the team and, respectively, form their own team and join one with players they've never met before. The logic is lost on me." Teams are all born out of meetings of players who don't know each other, so even if you know one or two guys IRL, it's not a generality. You recruit a player searching for a successful line up, or following advices from your own guys. Again, refusing to simply play and meet guys from your country is taking the easy way out. Why should they have the right to do so? (I stress that I'm speaking without rancor, I'm just expressing an objective opinion, it goes both ways). "I've been playing for Europe for 10 years" is thus not a valid argument. Or bad faith.
A large majority of players agree, but what about change? I think that insofar as the format is changing, this is an opportunity to kill two birds with one stone and deal with this problem for good.
Dorron said this with more than 70 reactions:
"You are from a country with no national team -> you can play for the continental team
You are from a country with a national team -> you must play for the national team
You are from a country which used to not have a national team, but was made this year and made it to main stage -> next year you must play for the national team
This tournament is to play with your country, and continental teams were made to let people from countries without enough players to have a team to play with. Otherwise you are not only not following the tour's philosophy but also making it even harder for your national team to keep up with the competition. This is not a tour where you choose your team, it is not that hard to understand."
Welli0u : "Europe is a sketch and should be gone since many years, after the rules became more stringent. I am pretty sure it has benefited from being protected by influence people with influence at that time."
BigFatMantis: "I don't know why this is still allowed to exist this way. Maybe it's because the super teams want to be able to keep their overpowered cores, but whether or not they are overpowered doesn't and shouldn't matter. What does matter is that you are giving certain people the choice of where to play, simply because of outdated rules that frankly don't make any sense."
msnt : "When I see Europe having a majority of Belgian/Dutch players when EVERYBODY know that they can build a team on their own and not just overpowering Europe for no reason (more over Belgium already exists and made playoffs this year this is a complete nonsense having belgian players playing in another team), if those players don't want to play for their countries we are not forcing them but they are not allowed to play for another continental team which is based on nothing solid except of some friendly relations between them.
I'm not fully against keeping continental teams but they should be used for very specific countries (for example Lituania, Estonia, and other european countries which don't have enough players to make a consistent team as much as I know)."
CrashinBoomBang : "Grandfathering needs to go. I know this is a touchy subject for some, especially people benefitting from it, but I think that we already, in its entirety, should have abolished grandfathering as well as everything standing in the way of "you playing for your country" last year. We can talk in circles about who should be allowed to be grandfathered and who shouldn't be, what the timeframe is... but I think the only actually good solution is getting rid of it altogether. I truly believe that option B, aka PLAY FOR YOUR COUNTRY, is the only way forward, and we should be enforcing that mindset rigorously, both for old and new players alike. I think grandfathering gives people who have been around for longer an advantage over the people who haven't been, and that's already a bad thing to me, but it goes further than that: It slowly erodes national identity because it lets people form superteams, to this day. I don't wish to take anything away from Team Europe as a team, they obviously put a lot of time and work into this tournament and it showed, but I still think that it was a hodgepodge of nationalities at the end of the day, which really doesn't align with my idea of WCOP. I like the other Germans, we get along reasonably well, but they've never been my truly closest friends on Smogon. Still, I was ready and willing to work with them every year, and I think part of the WCOP experience is working with people you don't usually get to do stuff with. Playing with friends, people you like, all of that can be reserved for SPL and SCL. I think working together with your country towards a common goal should be the aim of WCOP, and Grandfathering, to me, is the big thing standing in the way of that, with national teams getting abandoned for superteams. And, honestly, if given the option, would you not do the same? I don't know if I would, I've always felt some national pride actually playing for Germany, but I think even giving people the option should be revoked. Literally just have people play for their countries, and if they don't want to, then they're free to sit out. Simple as that, in my opinion."
I will close this introduction with the words of CBB: "if given the option, would you not do the same?" The real problem is that this option is left to the players.
I therefore suggest the following, but remain open to discussion:
- A player may join a continental team if the country/countries for which he/she is eligible do not have any existing/registered teams this very year.
- If a national team for which the player can play is registered, but he has been part of a continental team in last edition, he can continue for the coming edition with this continental team (For example, if "national team A" registers in 2023, a player eligible for it playing in "continental team B" in 2022 can still play for this continental team for 2023. This gives the player time to adapt and prevents him from leaving a continental team for an ephemeral one-year project).
- If said national team is re-registered the following year, the player must then join his national team. Once he does, he is locked to play for it according to current WCoP rules (Taking back the previous example, if "national team A" registers again in 2024, the player'll have to play for this national team).
- If all national teams a player is eligible for refuse him for any reason (too many players, not in the plans,...), the player doesn't become eligible for any continental team (This point aims at fixing the issue of "slots being taken by players eligible elsewhere" that some players with absolutely no national team could face with the implementation of the three other points).
I have the impression that this is a recurring problem, but that for some obscure reason, debates questioning the eligibility of players lead nowhere.
My wish is that a well-considered and fair decision is taken based on our reflections.
As Amaranth said, teams have been created "so everyone is eligible to a team that's at least somewhat competitive":
"1. We split the US teams in 4 for balance
2. We create the main Continental Teams (Latin America, Europe, Asia)
2.b We allow New Zealand + Australia for Oceania, and Africa"
From the outset, it was always intended that continental teams should be accessible only to players without competitive teams.
The problem is that this freedom has been abused :
Countries have found it extremely difficult to create teams (let's forget competitive ones) due to a lack of players, even more so because some eligible players prefer the easy way out and self-interest (whether linked to friendships or an ambition to perform).
I understand that it's not easy to turn down an all-star team, but it seems to me that, by its very nature, a World Cup is supposed to oppose countries.
Otherwise, don't call it a World Cup. As a result, we find ourselves with inequalities in player recruitment between all the teams.
I couldn't find better words than Amaranth on the subject through his "Viewpoint B: FIGHT FOR YOUR COUNTRY!!!" :
But there's more to come. And that's where it goes even further. I'll take the example of my country, Belgium, which qualified for the main event after three/four years of efforts. I apologize in advance for targeting Europe, but in this situation, it's easier for me to talk about them to illustrate my point. I don't have any animosity towards the guys, I've already had quite a few discussions with Ruft, whom I like, and I can understand why Mcm might not want to play for us.
Despite our qualification, we still see Belgian players at Europe. Why? As mentioned above, the door to Team Europe was opened to them so that they could play in a competitive team... "Hello, we're here!"
From a logical and purely fair point of view, they no longer have any reason to ignore their country. If they don't want to join the Belgian team, that's not an issue. But what right do they have to stay in Europe? Either they don't play in the WCoP and can invest in other projects, or they join their rightful country.
Allowing them to play for Europe is breaking obvious rules linked to tournaments between nations, and blocking slots for other players who are really looking for a team to play with, not being attached to any competitive country.
Here are the arguments I see being used by European players in response to those allegations from players waiting for fair rules (and my ""answers"" to them):
"In WCoP you're supposed to play for the same team every year, with the same pool of players." Really? I'm learning things... based on what? Each team is developping each year. It's part of this tournament to see how nations grow and expend, with some line ups completely changing every year.
"In these tournaments, you only get to play with the same friends year after year..." Welcome to Friends Cup 2024. Again refer to the answer I just gave.
"Yet in this thread it is unironically being suggested that players like Mana and ZoroDark, who have been playing for and bonded with the same team since, respectively, 2017 and 2013, should leave the team and, respectively, form their own team and join one with players they've never met before. The logic is lost on me." Teams are all born out of meetings of players who don't know each other, so even if you know one or two guys IRL, it's not a generality. You recruit a player searching for a successful line up, or following advices from your own guys. Again, refusing to simply play and meet guys from your country is taking the easy way out. Why should they have the right to do so? (I stress that I'm speaking without rancor, I'm just expressing an objective opinion, it goes both ways). "I've been playing for Europe for 10 years" is thus not a valid argument. Or bad faith.
A large majority of players agree, but what about change? I think that insofar as the format is changing, this is an opportunity to kill two birds with one stone and deal with this problem for good.
Dorron said this with more than 70 reactions:
"You are from a country with no national team -> you can play for the continental team
You are from a country with a national team -> you must play for the national team
You are from a country which used to not have a national team, but was made this year and made it to main stage -> next year you must play for the national team
This tournament is to play with your country, and continental teams were made to let people from countries without enough players to have a team to play with. Otherwise you are not only not following the tour's philosophy but also making it even harder for your national team to keep up with the competition. This is not a tour where you choose your team, it is not that hard to understand."
Welli0u : "Europe is a sketch and should be gone since many years, after the rules became more stringent. I am pretty sure it has benefited from being protected by influence people with influence at that time."
BigFatMantis: "I don't know why this is still allowed to exist this way. Maybe it's because the super teams want to be able to keep their overpowered cores, but whether or not they are overpowered doesn't and shouldn't matter. What does matter is that you are giving certain people the choice of where to play, simply because of outdated rules that frankly don't make any sense."
msnt : "When I see Europe having a majority of Belgian/Dutch players when EVERYBODY know that they can build a team on their own and not just overpowering Europe for no reason (more over Belgium already exists and made playoffs this year this is a complete nonsense having belgian players playing in another team), if those players don't want to play for their countries we are not forcing them but they are not allowed to play for another continental team which is based on nothing solid except of some friendly relations between them.
I'm not fully against keeping continental teams but they should be used for very specific countries (for example Lituania, Estonia, and other european countries which don't have enough players to make a consistent team as much as I know)."
CrashinBoomBang : "Grandfathering needs to go. I know this is a touchy subject for some, especially people benefitting from it, but I think that we already, in its entirety, should have abolished grandfathering as well as everything standing in the way of "you playing for your country" last year. We can talk in circles about who should be allowed to be grandfathered and who shouldn't be, what the timeframe is... but I think the only actually good solution is getting rid of it altogether. I truly believe that option B, aka PLAY FOR YOUR COUNTRY, is the only way forward, and we should be enforcing that mindset rigorously, both for old and new players alike. I think grandfathering gives people who have been around for longer an advantage over the people who haven't been, and that's already a bad thing to me, but it goes further than that: It slowly erodes national identity because it lets people form superteams, to this day. I don't wish to take anything away from Team Europe as a team, they obviously put a lot of time and work into this tournament and it showed, but I still think that it was a hodgepodge of nationalities at the end of the day, which really doesn't align with my idea of WCOP. I like the other Germans, we get along reasonably well, but they've never been my truly closest friends on Smogon. Still, I was ready and willing to work with them every year, and I think part of the WCOP experience is working with people you don't usually get to do stuff with. Playing with friends, people you like, all of that can be reserved for SPL and SCL. I think working together with your country towards a common goal should be the aim of WCOP, and Grandfathering, to me, is the big thing standing in the way of that, with national teams getting abandoned for superteams. And, honestly, if given the option, would you not do the same? I don't know if I would, I've always felt some national pride actually playing for Germany, but I think even giving people the option should be revoked. Literally just have people play for their countries, and if they don't want to, then they're free to sit out. Simple as that, in my opinion."
I will close this introduction with the words of CBB: "if given the option, would you not do the same?" The real problem is that this option is left to the players.
I therefore suggest the following, but remain open to discussion:
- A player may join a continental team if the country/countries for which he/she is eligible do not have any existing/registered teams this very year.
- If a national team for which the player can play is registered, but he has been part of a continental team in last edition, he can continue for the coming edition with this continental team (For example, if "national team A" registers in 2023, a player eligible for it playing in "continental team B" in 2022 can still play for this continental team for 2023. This gives the player time to adapt and prevents him from leaving a continental team for an ephemeral one-year project).
- If said national team is re-registered the following year, the player must then join his national team. Once he does, he is locked to play for it according to current WCoP rules (Taking back the previous example, if "national team A" registers again in 2024, the player'll have to play for this national team).
- If all national teams a player is eligible for refuse him for any reason (too many players, not in the plans,...), the player doesn't become eligible for any continental team (This point aims at fixing the issue of "slots being taken by players eligible elsewhere" that some players with absolutely no national team could face with the implementation of the three other points).
