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[Gen6] CAP Viability Ranking Thread V2
- Thread starter cbrevan
- Start date
Except in CAP, it can't. That's the point; What it does in UU and in any other metagame, is completely irrelevant. This argument should be backed by replays showing it working in the CAP metagame, not by the ranking it has in another metagame.
Bionic Puppy you're ignoring the entire point of what people are saying. The reasons why Rain and Mega Swampert do well in UU do not necessarily cross over into CAP and its is not acceptable for you or anyone else to assume that they do. There is somewhere around 70 Pokemon that are available for use in CAP that aren't available for use in UU, and to simply ignore this like your posts have been is not going to help any argument you have. The fact of the matter is that UU and CAP are two completely different beasts; UU lacks the solid checks CAP has to Mega Swampert, namely Mega Venusaur, Rotom-W, Tomohawk, and Ferrothorn.
If you're going to suggest that regular Swampert isn't outclassed by the bulky Water- and Ground-types in CAP you're going to need to post high level replays justifying why and how it isn't.
Broken Phobias the reason why Mega Swampert and Politoed are listed so high is because Rain is an effective playstyle in CAP that can overwhelm offensive and balance teams pretty easily. The near lack of Sand offense in the metagame and CAPs access to fantastic rain abusers such as Tomohawk and Mollux are a big reason as to why its so effective. Mega Swamperts ability to check Mollux and Cyclohm reliably for Rain offense is a big reason why its ranked where it is, and Politoed is in B due to its ability to support an entire variant of offense. If you're looking to figure out why Rain is used in CAP you should consider what Exclaimer mentioned and try to build a team that abuses Rain's access to multiple Swift Swimmers.
Mod Edit: CAP also has other rain setters besides just Politoed. Namely Tomohawk and Klefki.
If you're going to suggest that regular Swampert isn't outclassed by the bulky Water- and Ground-types in CAP you're going to need to post high level replays justifying why and how it isn't.
Broken Phobias the reason why Mega Swampert and Politoed are listed so high is because Rain is an effective playstyle in CAP that can overwhelm offensive and balance teams pretty easily. The near lack of Sand offense in the metagame and CAPs access to fantastic rain abusers such as Tomohawk and Mollux are a big reason as to why its so effective. Mega Swamperts ability to check Mollux and Cyclohm reliably for Rain offense is a big reason why its ranked where it is, and Politoed is in B due to its ability to support an entire variant of offense. If you're looking to figure out why Rain is used in CAP you should consider what Exclaimer mentioned and try to build a team that abuses Rain's access to multiple Swift Swimmers.
Mod Edit: CAP also has other rain setters besides just Politoed. Namely Tomohawk and Klefki.
Last edited by a moderator:
Nobody uses anything lower than B- seriously, so I went and started using Kyurem. Nominating for C rank.
This thing is obscenely bulky; 125/90/90 bulk is already pretty nice when uninvested, but the moment you put EVs in there, Kyurem becomes a defensive behemoth with an ability that compliments its bulk, typing, and movepool, while giving it its best niche: Pressure.
This gives it the ability to stall out certain Pokemon extremely well; Tomohawk fails to beat it and takes a ton from STAB Ice Beam, Chansey fails to break a sub with Seismic Toss, Pyroak struggles to much more than set rocks and maybe Roar (It has to take an ice beam to the face to do so, burning away Synthesis), Venusaur flails helplessly, Mega Sableye also struggles, and the list goes on. This is all backed by a base 130 Special Attack, which is very high and gives it the offensive pressure it needs to not be Taunt bait.
Stall teams especially love Kyurem's presence, because it beats and sets up on the two most common hazard removal mons, Colossoil and Tomohawk, while also beating down many other hazard removal mons, such as Mollux, Kitsunoh, and the Latis. Skarm gives it issues, but it's heavily pressured to switch into Ice Beam.
Why should it be C rank? It gives balance teams hell. Many cores that balance runs, such as VenuTran, FerroSkarm, Tomohawk/Colossoil/Cyclohm, all of them get demolished and stalled out by one set (Roost/Substitute/Ice Beam/Earth Power) and the offensive Pokemon that balance runs hate switching in on 130 Special Attack Ice Beams, even when it's uninvested (Looking at you, Talonflame and friends). With Balance being so utterly dominant, Kyurem has a niche that, when put to use, can put in some work.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-323152857
This thing is obscenely bulky; 125/90/90 bulk is already pretty nice when uninvested, but the moment you put EVs in there, Kyurem becomes a defensive behemoth with an ability that compliments its bulk, typing, and movepool, while giving it its best niche: Pressure.
This gives it the ability to stall out certain Pokemon extremely well; Tomohawk fails to beat it and takes a ton from STAB Ice Beam, Chansey fails to break a sub with Seismic Toss, Pyroak struggles to much more than set rocks and maybe Roar (It has to take an ice beam to the face to do so, burning away Synthesis), Venusaur flails helplessly, Mega Sableye also struggles, and the list goes on. This is all backed by a base 130 Special Attack, which is very high and gives it the offensive pressure it needs to not be Taunt bait.
Stall teams especially love Kyurem's presence, because it beats and sets up on the two most common hazard removal mons, Colossoil and Tomohawk, while also beating down many other hazard removal mons, such as Mollux, Kitsunoh, and the Latis. Skarm gives it issues, but it's heavily pressured to switch into Ice Beam.
Why should it be C rank? It gives balance teams hell. Many cores that balance runs, such as VenuTran, FerroSkarm, Tomohawk/Colossoil/Cyclohm, all of them get demolished and stalled out by one set (Roost/Substitute/Ice Beam/Earth Power) and the offensive Pokemon that balance runs hate switching in on 130 Special Attack Ice Beams, even when it's uninvested (Looking at you, Talonflame and friends). With Balance being so utterly dominant, Kyurem has a niche that, when put to use, can put in some work.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-323152857
Take Azelfie
More flags more fun
I guess the main question to asked with Kyurem is how effective is PP Stall? You brought up a lot of valid points and I do agree with this nom just because as a stall breaker it does its job extremely good.
I (painfully) agree that Kyurem is quite effective at its job. Since physical Fighting-type moves are not as common as of late, Kyurem actually does a very good job. It's not only a stallbreaker but also a very good mon on a stall team itself because of Pressure. One might say that Crucibelle (I know it's not here yet) should be able to pressure it, but A) it must switch in safely, B) Kyurem cannot have a sub up (otherwise it gets knocked out by Earth Power), and C), and even if it does get in, Pressure will remove two of its precious Head Smash PP.
C Rank is just the place for it, as it needs the team support to switch out of Steel-type moves and Pixilated Hyper Voices (that pierce subs). However, its ability to break balance cores, to function as stallbreaker, and its good coverage makes it worthy of this nomination (which I almost regret supporting because it adds another mon I need to keep track of for stall). Do not underestimate this mon.
Alright, just going to skim through the rankings and point out things that don't look right to me.
Gallade (Mega) A- -> B+
Been touched on before, competition with megacham more or less bars it from A IMO. Putting in B+ because its typing is still really good offensively.
Gyarados Unranked -> B+
Surprised this isn't listed. Gives trouble to Colossoil, Tomohawk (if Bounce), Diancie, has Earthquake coverage, beats a lot of physical attackers by virtue of Intimidate. Ground immunity is cool too, with the type being as powerful as it is.
Landorus A- -> A / A+
What made this worse in CAP? As previously stated, Ground is an amazing attacking type, and it still has the same qualities that make it A+ in ORAS OU. I guess stuff like Syclant make its job harder, but I don't think it's enough to put it in A-.
Thundurus A- -> A / A+
Again, what made it worse? Colo doesn't like mixed variants, hazard control is easier in this meta than in ORAS OU, panic wave is still as good as ever, and the ground immunity is a good boon as stated before.
Gengar B+ -> A-
Sure, loses to Colo, but being a Poison-type immune to Ground is pretty big in a meta full of ground coverage for poisons and the influx of fairies. Again, still has all of the qualities that make it good in ORAS.
Jirachi B+ -> A- / A
Relatively unaffected by HP Grounds, great fairy switchin, colo doesn't like Ice Punch or U-Turn, psychic STAB is nifty with poison types being relatively popular.
Hippowdon B -> A
As I said before, Ground is an amazing typing in the current meta, shares Colo's ability of being a Ground not 4x weak to ice, and sports reliable recovery which colo wishes it had.
Latias B -> B+
See Latios, just less so.
Latios B -> A
Colo's presense isn't enough for that large of a drop, hates switching into a Draco, psychic STAB is cool, Earthquake coverage is there if you want that. Fairies usually fall to Psyshock after a bit of chip, still has the same qualities as in ORAS.
Feraligatr B- -> B+
I just think this is an unupdated ranking, hits like a truck, beats colo, beats diancie, has Aqua Jet if you want that, Earthquake coverage, Ice Punch for Necturna, no LO recoil.
Suicune C+ -> B / B+
Again, what made this so much worse in CAP? Doesn't like colo knocking off lefites but otherwise beats, defensive cyc doesn't beat it after a CM or two.
Gallade (Mega) A- -> B+
Been touched on before, competition with megacham more or less bars it from A IMO. Putting in B+ because its typing is still really good offensively.
Gyarados Unranked -> B+
Surprised this isn't listed. Gives trouble to Colossoil, Tomohawk (if Bounce), Diancie, has Earthquake coverage, beats a lot of physical attackers by virtue of Intimidate. Ground immunity is cool too, with the type being as powerful as it is.
Landorus A- -> A / A+
What made this worse in CAP? As previously stated, Ground is an amazing attacking type, and it still has the same qualities that make it A+ in ORAS OU. I guess stuff like Syclant make its job harder, but I don't think it's enough to put it in A-.
Thundurus A- -> A / A+
Again, what made it worse? Colo doesn't like mixed variants, hazard control is easier in this meta than in ORAS OU, panic wave is still as good as ever, and the ground immunity is a good boon as stated before.
Gengar B+ -> A-
Sure, loses to Colo, but being a Poison-type immune to Ground is pretty big in a meta full of ground coverage for poisons and the influx of fairies. Again, still has all of the qualities that make it good in ORAS.
Jirachi B+ -> A- / A
Relatively unaffected by HP Grounds, great fairy switchin, colo doesn't like Ice Punch or U-Turn, psychic STAB is nifty with poison types being relatively popular.
Hippowdon B -> A
As I said before, Ground is an amazing typing in the current meta, shares Colo's ability of being a Ground not 4x weak to ice, and sports reliable recovery which colo wishes it had.
Latias B -> B+
See Latios, just less so.
Latios B -> A
Colo's presense isn't enough for that large of a drop, hates switching into a Draco, psychic STAB is cool, Earthquake coverage is there if you want that. Fairies usually fall to Psyshock after a bit of chip, still has the same qualities as in ORAS.
Feraligatr B- -> B+
I just think this is an unupdated ranking, hits like a truck, beats colo, beats diancie, has Aqua Jet if you want that, Earthquake coverage, Ice Punch for Necturna, no LO recoil.
Suicune C+ -> B / B+
Again, what made this so much worse in CAP? Doesn't like colo knocking off lefites but otherwise beats, defensive cyc doesn't beat it after a CM or two.
I'm in agreement with a few of these nominations (stuff like Jirachi absolutely needs a bump), but I'd like to comment on some of the others.
+6 252 Atk Cawmodore Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 377-444 (126 - 148.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
That being said, Thundurus is by no means a bad Pokemon, as Electric is still a fairly potent attacking type + it has the coverage to smack several of its switch-ins, but it fails to stop one of the metagame's most prominent setup sweepers (and can even find itself being used as setup bait if it doesn't run Focus Blast).
On another note, non-CAP Pokemon in the CAP Viability Rankings aren't ranked with the sole philosophy "Look at a mon's OU ranking, see how it interacts with CAP mons, then adjust it up or down accordingly" and shouldn't be, because they're different metagames. OU is certainly the most closely-related metagame to CAP, seeing as it's our metagame minus 20 mons, but different playstyles still vary slightly or heavily in popularity in comparison to OU and we're often subject to completely different metagame trends. Sometimes similar trends occur, but CAP tends to lag behind OU a lot in this respect (an example being Tank Garchomp, which took quite a while to catch on in CAP when it had been a staple in OU for a pretty long period of time).
That being said, there are still a good amount of mons that deserve a shift that I haven't touched on here, so I'll likely post here again in a while or update this post.
The simple response here is Cawmodore. Thundurus is an Electric-type that can't check Caw at all, as Cawmodore just sweeps right past it, meaning that it's often passed up in favor of Electric-types that sport Fire-type coverage or strong secondary STAB, such as Cyclohm, Mega Manectric, and Krilowatt.
+6 252 Atk Cawmodore Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 377-444 (126 - 148.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
That being said, Thundurus is by no means a bad Pokemon, as Electric is still a fairly potent attacking type + it has the coverage to smack several of its switch-ins, but it fails to stop one of the metagame's most prominent setup sweepers (and can even find itself being used as setup bait if it doesn't run Focus Blast).
The high prominence of Pokemon with immunities to Water really hampers Suicune in this metagame (Mollux / Plasmanta, the former of which is seen on almost 20% of teams and the latter of which gains a SpA boost and strikes back for massive damage). Nearly every Pokemon reliant on Water STAB is affected by this duo to some degree (Keldeo for example almost always runs Hidden Power Ground as its coverage option in CAP, whereas it doesn't really have a reason to do this in OU). Suicune could certainly run Hidden Power Ground itself to hit these mons, but this forces it to drop one of its other moveslots. Either way, I feel that Suicune's current ranking is fairly indicative of the type of support it requires in CAP.
On another note, non-CAP Pokemon in the CAP Viability Rankings aren't ranked with the sole philosophy "Look at a mon's OU ranking, see how it interacts with CAP mons, then adjust it up or down accordingly" and shouldn't be, because they're different metagames. OU is certainly the most closely-related metagame to CAP, seeing as it's our metagame minus 20 mons, but different playstyles still vary slightly or heavily in popularity in comparison to OU and we're often subject to completely different metagame trends. Sometimes similar trends occur, but CAP tends to lag behind OU a lot in this respect (an example being Tank Garchomp, which took quite a while to catch on in CAP when it had been a staple in OU for a pretty long period of time).
That being said, there are still a good amount of mons that deserve a shift that I haven't touched on here, so I'll likely post here again in a while or update this post.
I for the most part agree with those noms, in addition to Spark's comments, but with one difference:
Latias.
This thing suffers competition from Latios, obviously, but it also happens to suffer competition from Tomohawk as a hazard removal mon that can hit hard, has Healing Wish, has recovery, and even shares two of Lati's most prominent weaknesses, Fairy and Ice. However, Tomohawk has a lot of benefits, such as countering Colossoil instead of losing to it, having Rapid Spin instead of Defog, and having priority Roost/Healing Wish. Latias suffers some serious competition, not only from Latios, but from Tomohawk, both of whom are pretty stellar in this metagame.
Latias.
This thing suffers competition from Latios, obviously, but it also happens to suffer competition from Tomohawk as a hazard removal mon that can hit hard, has Healing Wish, has recovery, and even shares two of Lati's most prominent weaknesses, Fairy and Ice. However, Tomohawk has a lot of benefits, such as countering Colossoil instead of losing to it, having Rapid Spin instead of Defog, and having priority Roost/Healing Wish. Latias suffers some serious competition, not only from Latios, but from Tomohawk, both of whom are pretty stellar in this metagame.
Houndoom is an incredible sweeper that utilizes Nasty plot to boost it's already large SpA stat. The only thing Houndoom has an issue with are faster fighting types which can easily be taken care of with a good Talonflame core. Also hazards tend to be a problem but a good spinner or defogger takes care of that quite well. All in All Houndoom has its place in the meta, I think it should be a bit higher on the list then just C.
B- Rank ---> B+ rank
Aerodactyl (Mega)
Can we just take a moment and look at mega Aerodactyl? Why is it at B-? Sure it has flaws but those flaws are nothing when it outspeeds the whole meta. Trust me I understand why it's in the B rank, but why is it so low in the B rank? I have pulled some pretty narly wins with this thing and it deserves to higher on the list. It has such great speed and attack that it just demolishes almost everything that dares to stay in or switch in on it. So now I ask you watch the replays below and ask yourselves a very important question. "Why Is Aerodactyl only in B-?"
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http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-327875161
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-327946683
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-327956119
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-327960776
Can we just take a moment and look at mega Aerodactyl? Why is it at B-? Sure it has flaws but those flaws are nothing when it outspeeds the whole meta. Trust me I understand why it's in the B rank, but why is it so low in the B rank? I have pulled some pretty narly wins with this thing and it deserves to higher on the list. It has such great speed and attack that it just demolishes almost everything that dares to stay in or switch in on it. So now I ask you watch the replays below and ask yourselves a very important question. "Why Is Aerodactyl only in B-?"
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http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-327875161
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-327946683
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-327956119
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-327960776
OLD GREGG (im back baby)
old gregg for life
I was going to watch the replays in full until I saw that none of the matches had you up against a cyclohm. Cyclohm is by far one of the premier physical walls in cap and not even the mega stone helps aero much against this extremely prevalent dragon. Cyclohm is everywhere and it's one of the main reasons I think aero isn't ranked higher. It comes in on aero and forces it out every time or else aero takes a stab tbolt.
A single Pokemon isn't a good argument for keeping it so low, especially since Cyclohm is weak to common Aero partners such as Syclant and Latios. Once it's removed, Aerodactyl has the time of its life against offensive teams and weak balance builds. Heck, it even has Taunt for stall teams, though that doesn't stop steel types from just bopping it with STABs.
I think flat B rank is nice for Aero. It has a good offensive movepool and good stats/ability for it, but it has terrible defensive typing and low bulk, and when you're weak to Ice Shard, Bullet Punch, AND Aqua Jet, offensive teams actually don't have too much of a problem with it.
Another big thing against it is that it struggles to fit enough moves into its moveset to cover what it wants. Aqua Tail, EQ, Stone Edge, Aerial Ace, Taunt, Roost, Fire Fang, are all moves it wants to run, but can't all at once. This leaves it weak to balanced defensive cores, such as Jirachi + Tomohawk.
Take Azelfie
More flags more fun
I guess I'll be the first to talk about Crucibelle's placement
Placement ---> A-/A
This thing is actually phenominal. It's speed tier and STAB combination is actually perfect for the metagame. Head Smash is so hard to switch into if you don't resist it and it also combats so many of the tiers Pokemon like Kyurem-Black, Aurumoth, and Pyroak. Gunk Shot is great against the abundant amount of Fairies and Serperior. U-turn makes it an amazing choice for VoltTurn teams and Coil is scary AF. The main drawback of using it is that you do leave your team a LOT more weaker to Ground-types. Also if you lack Low Kick Steel-types can be a burden to. Overall it is just absolutely amazing at crushing things with fast speed and high power.
Placement ---> B
There are two main sets for this thing being Choice Band and Choice Scarf. Each have there own unique properties. Band is a stupidly powerful wallbreaker, but it usually requires U-turn or Volt Switch to get in safely. Choice Scarf is nice for revenge killing and with already good speed meaning it gets the edge against most scarfers. The problem is that Head Smash recoil is a huge drawback for it, since unlike its Mega forme it has doesn't have Magic Guard. Meaning after scaring kills it must switch out in order to stay healthy and if hazards are up this only becomes harder. That is a HUGE drawback but it's tools are still too good to pass up in some oppurtunities.
^^^^^^^^
Another note too add I don't think Crucibelle has impacted the meta drastically. The only thing that I feel might be impacted by Crucibelle is potentially Mega Gardevoir, even then it would probably only drop to A as opposed to staying in A+, butttt I cannot truly say anything because I have yet to face a Mega Gardevoir against all Crucibelle sets so this is just me theorymonning.
Placement ---> A-/A
This thing is actually phenominal. It's speed tier and STAB combination is actually perfect for the metagame. Head Smash is so hard to switch into if you don't resist it and it also combats so many of the tiers Pokemon like Kyurem-Black, Aurumoth, and Pyroak. Gunk Shot is great against the abundant amount of Fairies and Serperior. U-turn makes it an amazing choice for VoltTurn teams and Coil is scary AF. The main drawback of using it is that you do leave your team a LOT more weaker to Ground-types. Also if you lack Low Kick Steel-types can be a burden to. Overall it is just absolutely amazing at crushing things with fast speed and high power.
Placement ---> B
There are two main sets for this thing being Choice Band and Choice Scarf. Each have there own unique properties. Band is a stupidly powerful wallbreaker, but it usually requires U-turn or Volt Switch to get in safely. Choice Scarf is nice for revenge killing and with already good speed meaning it gets the edge against most scarfers. The problem is that Head Smash recoil is a huge drawback for it, since unlike its Mega forme it has doesn't have Magic Guard. Meaning after scaring kills it must switch out in order to stay healthy and if hazards are up this only becomes harder. That is a HUGE drawback but it's tools are still too good to pass up in some oppurtunities.
^^^^^^^^
Another note too add I don't think Crucibelle has impacted the meta drastically. The only thing that I feel might be impacted by Crucibelle is potentially Mega Gardevoir, even then it would probably only drop to A as opposed to staying in A+, butttt I cannot truly say anything because I have yet to face a Mega Gardevoir against all Crucibelle sets so this is just me theorymonning.
I don't think Mega Ampharos deserves C rank, if any rank. D rank at the absolute highest, because it's even more niche than you think it is. Cyclohm is literally just a better Mega Ampharos for most purposes, and can check Cawmodore just as well, if not better, because of raw bulk. Flamethrower/Fire Blast OHKO Cawmodore just the same, Mega Amph can only boast being slightly more reliable. However, Cyclohm has the following +'s over it:
Bulk
Coverage
Significantly more power via ability to hold item
Diversity in sets (Offensive LO, Scarf, Specs, Defensive)
Recovery
Heal Bell
Better dragon STAB Draco Meteor
Doesn't eat mega slot
Meanwhile... Ampharos gets these:
Mold Breaker lets it beat Cawmodore a little bit more reliably and OHKO Skarm/use Toxic on Mega Sableye
Focus Blast
Volt Switch
Less speed for Trick Room (despite Cyclohm being perfectly fine in Trick Room)
For the price of a Mega slot, and Cyclohm existing, I find it hard to justify using even on teams specifically built around it. Cyclohm is just so much better. Even when I did use it, I really struggled to see why I wasn't using Cyclohm instead, and allowing a better Mega on my team, such as Mega Garde.
Bulk
Coverage
Significantly more power via ability to hold item
Diversity in sets (Offensive LO, Scarf, Specs, Defensive)
Recovery
Heal Bell
Better dragon STAB Draco Meteor
Doesn't eat mega slot
Meanwhile... Ampharos gets these:
Mold Breaker lets it beat Cawmodore a little bit more reliably and OHKO Skarm/use Toxic on Mega Sableye
Focus Blast
Volt Switch
Less speed for Trick Room (despite Cyclohm being perfectly fine in Trick Room)
For the price of a Mega slot, and Cyclohm existing, I find it hard to justify using even on teams specifically built around it. Cyclohm is just so much better. Even when I did use it, I really struggled to see why I wasn't using Cyclohm instead, and allowing a better Mega on my team, such as Mega Garde.
Since the thread has been moving slow I figured I propose something
Entei D ----> C
I've been using Entei on the ladder recently because Nobody uses anything below a C. I've found that I've been having some success with it.
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 190-225 (46 - 54.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 216-255 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Stone Edge vs. 208 HP / 0 Def Mollux: 384-452 (100.2 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Entei has Amazing attack with a nasty Sacred Fire stab and that 50% burn rate is very cancerous. I know Entei Is still pretty niche but it does Pretty well In my opinion.
moderator edit: removed irrelevant / incorrect damage calculations
Entei D ----> C
I've been using Entei on the ladder recently because Nobody uses anything below a C. I've found that I've been having some success with it.
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 190-225 (46 - 54.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 216-255 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Stone Edge vs. 208 HP / 0 Def Mollux: 384-452 (100.2 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Entei has Amazing attack with a nasty Sacred Fire stab and that 50% burn rate is very cancerous. I know Entei Is still pretty niche but it does Pretty well In my opinion.
moderator edit: removed irrelevant / incorrect damage calculations
Last edited by a moderator:
Entei definitely hits very hard in this meta since its fire/coverage checks that don't mind a burn are few (namely Cyclohm and Rotom), but CAP has been a generally offensive meta that values speed and bulk (both of which Entei doesn't quite have enough of). The amount of hazard control does help out Entei's case. I think Entei is a pretty neat option for messing with stall, but I'm iffy on its viability against offense. Frankly somewhere around a C sounds about right.
Last edited by a moderator:
I just cleaned up a few posts. I don't want to be super strict when it comes to moderating this thread, but on the flip side, I don't want to see the posting quality drop heavily in this thread either. So first off, please keep damage calculations relevant if you're using them to make a point. If you're calculating things against a level 50 Rotom-W and using a VGC spread, you're clearly doing something wrong, and it gives me the impression that you're posting random calcs for the sake of doing so. That is not the point of this thread. Secondly, please cut back on the one-liners. They basically add nothing to the discussion and clutter up the thread, so I'm just going to start deleting them from now on, the only exception to this being updates from another CAP moderator or a member of the VR team.
That's all. Carry on.
That's all. Carry on.
OLD GREGG (im back baby)
old gregg for life
After playing extensively with Stratagem can we please get this thing to A+?
It is arguably the best revenge killer in the tier and easily one of the best glass cannons.
It has excellent Spa and Spe and both of its abilities can put in work. It even gets a few nice utility moves if you want to add a little flavor to the set that is stealth rock, calm mind, metal sound, trick.
I don't have any replays at the moment but Stratagem is really good, its underused, and I think it could go up a little just because of what it adds in terms of offense.
It is arguably the best revenge killer in the tier and easily one of the best glass cannons.
It has excellent Spa and Spe and both of its abilities can put in work. It even gets a few nice utility moves if you want to add a little flavor to the set that is stealth rock, calm mind, metal sound, trick.
I don't have any replays at the moment but Stratagem is really good, its underused, and I think it could go up a little just because of what it adds in terms of offense.
Take Azelfie
More flags more fun
Could someone post an update of what got changed?
I can tell since Mega Zard X and MAlt aren't S
I can tell since Mega Zard X and MAlt aren't S
The Viability Ranking team is currently in the process of doing a complete overhaul of the Viability Rankings to best reflect the current state of the metagame. This is going to take a while since unfortunately the list got pretty outdated, but we will get it done and posted in the near future. Before we started this update we made a handful of obvious changes just so the list wasn't completely outdated. These included dropping both Mega Charizard X and Mega Altaria to A+, bumping Mega Sableye to A+, bumping Garchomp to A, bumping Tornadus-T to A, bumping Jirachi to A, bumping Latios to A-, and dropping Chansey to B+. Keep in mind that these changes were made just to keep this list not entirely outdated while we complete a full update, and will be subject to change upon further discussion.
Furthermore, this doesn't mean we're discounting what people have posted in this thread. Honestly, the more people post and discuss Pokemons the easier it is for us to evaluate and make changes, so in fact an increase in discussion would be greatly appreciated. That said, there does need to be more of a discussion in this thread for it to be of any benefit to the ranking team. Discussion of low priority ranks such as D and C should be put on hold in favor of more relevant ranks such as S, A, and B, since every viability list ultimately starts and ends with the higher ranks.
Now would be the time to make any nominations for S, A, and B ranked Pokemons. You think something in A+ is dominant enough to be moved to S ranks? Lets here it. Think something from the B ranks has become viable enough to make that jump to A? Make a post about it. Is there something that seems like it needs too much team support for it to be in A+ / A / A-? Tell us about it. Just not with one liners or bad damage calcs.
We've also decided to separate Mega Pokemon with their base forms, so Pokemon such as Scizor and Slowbro will finally be receiving a rank. Don't bother nominating shitty base forms like Charizard and Lopunny, since we won't be ranking the unviable ones. Crucibelle and it's Mega are now open for discussion as well.
Furthermore, this doesn't mean we're discounting what people have posted in this thread. Honestly, the more people post and discuss Pokemons the easier it is for us to evaluate and make changes, so in fact an increase in discussion would be greatly appreciated. That said, there does need to be more of a discussion in this thread for it to be of any benefit to the ranking team. Discussion of low priority ranks such as D and C should be put on hold in favor of more relevant ranks such as S, A, and B, since every viability list ultimately starts and ends with the higher ranks.
Now would be the time to make any nominations for S, A, and B ranked Pokemons. You think something in A+ is dominant enough to be moved to S ranks? Lets here it. Think something from the B ranks has become viable enough to make that jump to A? Make a post about it. Is there something that seems like it needs too much team support for it to be in A+ / A / A-? Tell us about it. Just not with one liners or bad damage calcs.
We've also decided to separate Mega Pokemon with their base forms, so Pokemon such as Scizor and Slowbro will finally be receiving a rank. Don't bother nominating shitty base forms like Charizard and Lopunny, since we won't be ranking the unviable ones. Crucibelle and it's Mega are now open for discussion as well.
Take Azelfie
More flags more fun
A ---> A-
Tbh I find this thing kind of underwhelming. First of all, you always need a boost to actually be doing some kind of damage. Its bulk is only alright which means it has to pick off a weakened opponent most of the time. It is overwhelmed by Choice Scarf users and faster Pokemon like Weavile and Scylantt. Just absolutely screwed over by Paralysis. Finally it has to dropped coverage or recovery for Glare if it wants it. And if it doesn't have Glare, things like Mega Altaria or Mega Charizard Y run ham all over it.
A ---> A+
This was already tocuhed upon earlier but this thing is extremely useful in practice as it is a glass cannon that doesn't lose to Talonflame. Its coverage is really amazing possessing stuff like Energy Ball and Fire Blast. It can also be a pretty neat win condition with its Calm Mind sets
I'll also quote these crucibelle noms I made a while back.
I guess I'll be the first to talk about Crucibelle's placement
Placement ---> A-/A
This thing is actually phenominal. It's speed tier and STAB combination is actually perfect for the metagame. Head Smash is so hard to switch into if you don't resist it and it also combats so many of the tiers Pokemon like Kyurem-Black, Aurumoth, and Pyroak. Gunk Shot is great against the abundant amount of Fairies and Serperior. U-turn makes it an amazing choice for VoltTurn teams and Coil is scary AF. The main drawback of using it is that you do leave your team a LOT more weaker to Ground-types. Also if you lack Low Kick Steel-types can be a burden to. Overall it is just absolutely amazing at crushing things with fast speed and high power.
Placement ---> B
There are two main sets for this thing being Choice Band and Choice Scarf. Each have there own unique properties. Band is a stupidly powerful wallbreaker, but it usually requires U-turn or Volt Switch to get in safely. Choice Scarf is nice for revenge killing and with already good speed meaning it gets the edge against most scarfers. The problem is that Head Smash recoil is a huge drawback for it, since unlike its Mega forme it has doesn't have Magic Guard. Meaning after scaring kills it must switch out in order to stay healthy and if hazards are up this only becomes harder. That is a HUGE drawback but it's tools are still too good to pass up in some oppurtunities.
^^^^^^^^
Another note too add I don't think Crucibelle has impacted the meta drastically. The only thing that I feel might be impacted by Crucibelle is potentially Mega Gardevoir, even then it would probably only drop to A as opposed to staying in A+, butttt I cannot truly say anything because I have yet to face a Mega Gardevoir against all Crucibelle sets so this is just me theorymonning.
OLD GREGG (im back baby)
old gregg for life
Crucibelle-mega is at least A-
It offers a lot of power and speed in a mega slot with a very nice anti-meta typing. Being able to comfortably sponge flying, fire, and fairy is a huge boon imo. Being able to pivot in and out via U-turn with a nice 114 base speed is pretty useful and having a 150 bp stab with no drawbacksexcept shitty accuracy is pretty huge as well. The reason I'm not suggesting higher is the 4x ground weakness in a meta where ground coverage is not only on almost every mon, but running ground coverage is a downright necessity to an extent; this fact is exasperated in that a lot of ground mons are physically bulky and can outright counter Crucibelle with only one opportunity.
I say Crucibelle base to B+
You might be wondering why I would rank a base so close to its mega, and its not that the mega is bad.
I think the option to choose mold breaker or regenerator in tandem with an item makes up for lack of extra speed and power. With mold breaker you now have access to the only Toxic Spikes setter in the game that can undermine magic bounce, you also have stealth rock fwiw. These traits make Crucibelle an excellent hazard provider, which in tandem with U-turn can lure in the defogger/spinner and pivot out; or nail them with a life orb boosted Head Smash/Gunk Shot. We all know about the band/scarf sets, but I think as people familiarize themselves with Crucibelle more sets will begin to appear. With an assault vest and Sand support our SpD is raised up to surpass that of Florges meaning regenvest/special tank sets are possible, idk how viable they would be though. Lots of options for base form since it isn't pigeon-holed into just physical attacker, but just like the mega-form the mons that are carrying eq and ep really hold it back.
It offers a lot of power and speed in a mega slot with a very nice anti-meta typing. Being able to comfortably sponge flying, fire, and fairy is a huge boon imo. Being able to pivot in and out via U-turn with a nice 114 base speed is pretty useful and having a 150 bp stab with no drawbacks
I say Crucibelle base to B+
You might be wondering why I would rank a base so close to its mega, and its not that the mega is bad.
I think the option to choose mold breaker or regenerator in tandem with an item makes up for lack of extra speed and power. With mold breaker you now have access to the only Toxic Spikes setter in the game that can undermine magic bounce, you also have stealth rock fwiw. These traits make Crucibelle an excellent hazard provider, which in tandem with U-turn can lure in the defogger/spinner and pivot out; or nail them with a life orb boosted Head Smash/Gunk Shot. We all know about the band/scarf sets, but I think as people familiarize themselves with Crucibelle more sets will begin to appear. With an assault vest and Sand support our SpD is raised up to surpass that of Florges meaning regenvest/special tank sets are possible, idk how viable they would be though. Lots of options for base form since it isn't pigeon-holed into just physical attacker, but just like the mega-form the mons that are carrying eq and ep really hold it back.
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Honestly, power isn't what makes this 'mon. It's u-turn in combination with the ability to threaten out so many Pokemon. Mega Crucibelle is easily one of the better pivots in the entire meta, with an immunity to hazards and passive damage, giving it a deceptively huge longevity factor, letting it throw out tons of chip damage a lot of times throughout the match. The things that threaten Crucibelle can be easily taken advantage of as well as they switch into Cruci, namely Tomohawk, one of the sturdier Crucibelle answers. Just toss in your Syclant/Clefable/Hoopa and boom, Tomohawk's taken hazard damage and something they switch in is either gonna take a massive hit, Thunder Wave, or ANOTHER u-turn.
It's powerful as well, can sweep with Coil rather nicely, and it's hard to switch into its stabs when RNG decides to be favorable.
A few nominations from me...
Weaville B+ -> A
Great STAB combatination with excellent speed and attack makes switching into this very hard. Weaville is also one of the few physical attackers who can threaten Cyclohm and Tomohawk, the two premier physical walls in the CAP metagame. Can also 2HKO Heatran and Ferrothorn with Low Kick as well as provide the team with priority in Ice Shard and use Pursuit to weaken opposing checks which can help lead the way to sweeps from Pokemon like Mega Crucibelle and Mega Altaria. Faces competition from Colossoil and Bisharp as a physical Dark-type attacker with priority but the useful Ice-typing plus insane speed makes it a good option for any offense team.
Sylveon A- -> B-
The recent CAPs haven't been very nice to Crucibelle and recent metagame trends haven't been either. Not only is Crucibelle a massive threat to Sylveon with its good special bulk and Poison-typing, but Crucibelle's common checks, Jirachi, Kitsunoh, Ferrothorn etc, have been gaining popularity as well, further hampering Sylveon's ability to function. Already common Pokemon like Mollux, Heatran, Pyroak, Skarmory, Scizor and Cawmodore also make Sylveon very hard to use effectively. Sylveon also faces competition as an offensive Fairy-type from Mega Gardevoir and Mega Diancie and Fairy-type support from Clefable.
Conkeldurr B- -> C
There aren't a whole lot of reasons to use Conkeldurr. He can't get passed Clefable, Tomohawk, Slowbro Mega, Pyroak, Mega Sableye etc. and also faces competition as a bulky physical Fighting-type from Revenankh and Arghonaut. Also, with Psychic-, Flying-, and Fairy-type attacks all being very common Conkeldurr finds it hard to make much of an impression.
Kitsunoh B -> B+
Kitsunoh has carved out its own niche with its solid typing, movepool and Speed stat which allows it to serve as a check to many top metagame threats such as Mega Gardevoir, Crucibelle, Jirachi, Serperior and Clefable. Kitsunoh functions very well as a Defog user thanks to its many immunities and resistances and its ability to pressure physical attackers with Will-O-Wisp. Shadow Strike is also an excellent STAB move that often forces switches due to its ability to lower the opponents defence 50% of the time when it hits. Kitsunoh can also scout with U-Turn or pressure Fairy-types with Meteor Mash. Kitsunoh can also pull off Choice sets well with its STAB combination and utility in Trick.
Base Crucibelle -> B
Base Crucibelle is actually pretty cool. While it doesn't have Magic Guard to take care of Head Smashes nasty recoil, it does have Regenerator which can patch that up somewhat. With a Choice item Crucibelle can either turn into an excellent revenge killer or a fearsome wallbreaker. Crucibelle can also disrupt the opposing team with Trick which can severely cripple many Pokemon with either a Choice item or Black Sludge while U-Turning around keeping momentum and weakening checks for late game. Crucibelle can also serve as the team's hazard setter with Mold Breaker Stealth Rocks and Toxic Spikes, making Crucibelle the only Pokemon able to set up both against Magic Bouncers/Rebounders putting heaps of pressure on Stall teams that rely on Mega Sableye to keep hazards at bay. Low defences coupled with with weaknesses to common attacking types and only decent attack keep it from being any higher.
Mega Crucibelle -> A
This has been suggested a lot recently so I won't go into much detail but Crucibelle is an absolute monster that puts so much pressure on opposing teams with
high powered STABs and U-Turn coupled with an excellent speed tier and high attack.
Weaville B+ -> A
Great STAB combatination with excellent speed and attack makes switching into this very hard. Weaville is also one of the few physical attackers who can threaten Cyclohm and Tomohawk, the two premier physical walls in the CAP metagame. Can also 2HKO Heatran and Ferrothorn with Low Kick as well as provide the team with priority in Ice Shard and use Pursuit to weaken opposing checks which can help lead the way to sweeps from Pokemon like Mega Crucibelle and Mega Altaria. Faces competition from Colossoil and Bisharp as a physical Dark-type attacker with priority but the useful Ice-typing plus insane speed makes it a good option for any offense team.
Sylveon A- -> B-
The recent CAPs haven't been very nice to Crucibelle and recent metagame trends haven't been either. Not only is Crucibelle a massive threat to Sylveon with its good special bulk and Poison-typing, but Crucibelle's common checks, Jirachi, Kitsunoh, Ferrothorn etc, have been gaining popularity as well, further hampering Sylveon's ability to function. Already common Pokemon like Mollux, Heatran, Pyroak, Skarmory, Scizor and Cawmodore also make Sylveon very hard to use effectively. Sylveon also faces competition as an offensive Fairy-type from Mega Gardevoir and Mega Diancie and Fairy-type support from Clefable.
Conkeldurr B- -> C
There aren't a whole lot of reasons to use Conkeldurr. He can't get passed Clefable, Tomohawk, Slowbro Mega, Pyroak, Mega Sableye etc. and also faces competition as a bulky physical Fighting-type from Revenankh and Arghonaut. Also, with Psychic-, Flying-, and Fairy-type attacks all being very common Conkeldurr finds it hard to make much of an impression.
Kitsunoh B -> B+
Kitsunoh has carved out its own niche with its solid typing, movepool and Speed stat which allows it to serve as a check to many top metagame threats such as Mega Gardevoir, Crucibelle, Jirachi, Serperior and Clefable. Kitsunoh functions very well as a Defog user thanks to its many immunities and resistances and its ability to pressure physical attackers with Will-O-Wisp. Shadow Strike is also an excellent STAB move that often forces switches due to its ability to lower the opponents defence 50% of the time when it hits. Kitsunoh can also scout with U-Turn or pressure Fairy-types with Meteor Mash. Kitsunoh can also pull off Choice sets well with its STAB combination and utility in Trick.
Base Crucibelle -> B
Base Crucibelle is actually pretty cool. While it doesn't have Magic Guard to take care of Head Smashes nasty recoil, it does have Regenerator which can patch that up somewhat. With a Choice item Crucibelle can either turn into an excellent revenge killer or a fearsome wallbreaker. Crucibelle can also disrupt the opposing team with Trick which can severely cripple many Pokemon with either a Choice item or Black Sludge while U-Turning around keeping momentum and weakening checks for late game. Crucibelle can also serve as the team's hazard setter with Mold Breaker Stealth Rocks and Toxic Spikes, making Crucibelle the only Pokemon able to set up both against Magic Bouncers/Rebounders putting heaps of pressure on Stall teams that rely on Mega Sableye to keep hazards at bay. Low defences coupled with with weaknesses to common attacking types and only decent attack keep it from being any higher.
Mega Crucibelle -> A
This has been suggested a lot recently so I won't go into much detail but Crucibelle is an absolute monster that puts so much pressure on opposing teams with
high powered STABs and U-Turn coupled with an excellent speed tier and high attack.