GSC In-Game Tier List

[Xen]

I'm not though. I'm using literal numbers to make literal calculations. I wish that exp rates weren't as big of a deal but they are. If you use one slow mon sure it's not going to make a "huge" difference but your team will suffer as a result of its slow exp curve. Because to train it you are taking away time from training others. This is the very essence of the sacrifice/opportunity cost concept that is supposed to be factored into the tier list. Level 43 Miltank/Tauros/Stantler vs Level 50 Aipom. These both do have roughly the same experience points - it's a literal fact. Aipom/Miltank/Furret having a weapon against Rock/Grounds and Steels, while Tauros has none until Victory Road except the 110k Fire Blast and Blizzard, also a literal fact. These enemy Pokemon exist in the game. Also a literal fact. There is no real "estimation" involved here, just number crunching with the margin of error being a few percentage points here and there, but that's how the game works.

It's hardly severe enough to drag all slow exp mons down and bump all fast exp mons up a tier though, especially since the majority of slow exp Pokemon usually have the stats and/or movepool to compensate. To use your example, when you factor in the base stats and roughly the same DVs/Stat Exp, lv 43 Tauros would still have slightly better stats overall than a lv 50 Aipom outside of SpA. Rock and Steel Pokemon are also rare to non-existent mid-late Johto outside of Jasmine's team.

These in-game tier lists also don't punish Pokemon that are comparable to another Pokemon, unless said Pokemon comes with an opportunity cost such as a starter. So even if Aipom is overall better than Tauros (I personally don't think it is, but to each their own I guess), that's still not an excuse in itself to toss it down a tier.

Also mirroring DragonWhale's post. The level curve in GSC is so skewed late game that exp growth hardly matters in efficient runs.

 

[RBYer]

It's hardly severe enough to drag all slow exp mons down and bump all fast exp mons up a tier though, especially since the majority of slow exp Pokemon usually have the stats and/or movepool to compensate. To use your example, when you factor in the base stats and roughly the same DVs/Stat Exp, lv 43 Tauros would still have slightly better stats overall than a lv 50 Aipom outside of SpA. Rock and Steel Pokemon are also rare to non-existent mid-late Johto outside of Jasmine's team.

Pokemon should be judged at how good they are basically, for playing through the game. It's not about bumping up one Pokemon one tier, another Pokemon down another, etc. It's just about putting roughly equivalent Pokemon in roughly equivalent tiers (which should be obvious). And a Lv 43 Tauros may be "better" stats, but its attacks should still be slightly weaker. Level is part of the damage formula (basically Level x Attack Stat determines attacking power), making their physical attacking power roughly equal (giving Aipom probably the slightest edge, not to mention its Return will be slightly more powerful due to more level-ups, and a large special attacking edge to where Fire/Ice Punch reach Tauros Surf level). Tauros's advantage is in physical defense, which can be important, but if you are defeating stuff in one hit it doesn't matter. In the more difficult battles of the game, physical defense is probably not used much more tha special defense anyway, if at all.

These in-game tier lists also don't punish Pokemon that are comparable to another Pokemon, unless said Pokemon comes with an opportunity cost such as a starter. So even if Aipom is overall better than Tauros (I personally don't think it is, but to each their own I guess), that's still not an excuse in itself to toss it down a tier.

If one is better than another then it shouldn't be 3 tiers lower. I missed Tauros gaining Surf in GSC (a bad error I'll admit) but even with it I still think they are roughly comparable and should be at most 1 tier apart.

Also mirroring DragonWhale's post. The level curve in GSC is so skewed late game that exp growth hardly matters in efficient runs.

This is simply not true. It scales roughly the same throughout all exp accumulation, until of course the Aipom or whatever is faster reaches 100. So the exp rate differential doesn't start mattering less. In fact it starts mattering slightly more but not in a particularly meaningful way.

 

[Karxrida]

Level is part of the damage formula (basically Level x Attack Stat determines attacking power)

Um, this isn't entirely true. The Level is put through its own formula before being multiplied by the Attack stat. This is the entire thing (ripped from Bulbapedia and matches one of our articles linked there):

Power is the BP of whatever move you use, A is the attacking stat, and D is the defending stat. Modifier is misc shit like STAB, type effectiveness, and Badge boosts (for Gen II at least).

I punched some numbers in our calc (not the best example since it just assumes EVs are maxed with Gen II settings), and a Level 43 Tauros was actually barely behind a Level 50 Aipom in damage output (range against an EV-less Level 50 Mew was 44-52 for Tauros and 46-55 for Aipom). You also have to consider how Badge boosts are flat 12.5% bonus that can stack (there's the Normal boost from the Plain Badge and the Attack boost from the Zephyr Badge) that becomes more noticeable when your stats are higher, so Tauros could probably do comparable or possibly even greater damage with those taken into account.

 

[RBYer]

I said "basically", because it's a good approximation. You can also factor in Aipom's slightly higher BP Return because it grows more levels. And multiplying a bigger number (with a badge boost) also gives you a bigger number. That doesn't negate any of the power gap. It could slightly widen or shrink it by a trivial amount depending on how the remainders are truncated.

 

[Karxrida]

I said "basically", because it's a good approximation.

If you throw in 50 as the level, the formula turns it into 22 before multipling by BP and Attack.

That's not a good approximation at all.

You can also factor in Aipom's slightly higher BP Return because it grows more levels.

It isn't that big of a boost when they both start of with 80 BP Returns with a Friend Ball capture (starts you off at 200 Friendship) and you need 2-3 levels to get a single BP gain due to how the formula works. Tauros can also totally have maxed out Return by Level 43 since you catch it at Level 13/15 (Aipom is what, level 20ish by this point and thus only has ~5 Return BP over it?) and it gains 2 Happiness points per level up, which is enough to max it out by 38/40.

You could easily max it out a little earlier with the points from walking or stuffing it with a couple free vitamins.

And multiplying a bigger number (with a badge boost) also gives you a bigger number.

That's basically what I already said? Tauros' Base Attack is higher by a significant amount so it can narrow the gap via the Attack boost.

That doesn't negate any of the power gap.

It probably can.

 

[RBYer]

If you throw in 50 as the level, the formula turns it into 22 before multipling by BP and Attack.
That's not a good approximation at all.

The ratio is all that matters because any metric is relative, on a multiplicative level. So it’s not 50 vs 22, but rather 50/43 vs 22/19.2 (technically 22/18 but better not to truncate when doing math for more general concepts). The 2 added on does serve to slightly decrease the ratio, slightly more at lower levels.

It isn't that big of a boost when they both start of with 80 BP Returns with a Friend Ball capture (starts you off at 200 Friendship) and you need 2-3 levels to get a single BP gain due to how the formula works. Tauros can also totally have maxed out Return by Level 43 since you catch it at Level 13/15 (Aipom is what, level 20ish by this point and thus only has ~5 Return BP over it?) and it gains 2 Happiness points per level up, which is enough to max it out by 38/40.

I am assuming no Friend Ball, because it’s highly inconvenient to both get Surf, the Ecruteak badge, grab the Green Apricorn, and return to Azalea Town, wait a day, and pray that Friend Ball works on something (both Tauros and Aipom) with a 21.4% success rate at 1 HP even while asleep. You need Fly first to gain efficiency, and even with Fly, it’s horribly inefficient. Headbutt and Strength are good STAB moves that both Tauros and Aipom can learn, and you can get Return at any time and teach it to them, maybe at Mahogany when you’re able to forget Strength.

Meanwhile under these same conditions, Furret is 38.7% catch rate, Raticate can be almost 40%, and Sentret is around 99% depending on its level. Furret is also a lot easier to encounter, and you can also run away from the low attack ones easier (they are all female).

That's basically what I already said? Tauros' Base Attack is higher by a significant amount so it can narrow the gap via the Attack boost.

The number that comes out of that big thing in parentheses is what is multiplied by the boost. If it’s 48 for Tauros and 52 for Aipom, then multiplying both by 1.25 gets you 60 for Tauros and 65 for Aipom. The relative difference in power by ratio (12:13) is still the same. The only thing that will really serve to decrease the difference are the added numbers (+2’s) within the big parentheses. But even so the amount that they change things is probably going to be covered by the difference in Return power.

Tauros does start out at a lower level, but it’s somewhat less accessible and those extra levels do contribute to Return power. So Tauros can arguably have a decent early game advantage, especially when Return isn’t a factor. Even more so when you take a “Tauros OR Miltank” approach, using whichever you catch first (in that case they add up to 10%). If you find the right tree, and headbutt at night, you can get 20% sleeping Aipoms, frequently, which are not that hard to catch.

I could see the point for Tauros having an advantage now that I realize that it gets Surf, but it’s all about how it performs at low levels at the beginning of the game, and once you get past the first bump with Aipom, they are essentially equals. Tauros does learn Earthquake too, which is helpful depending on how you wish to use your one-use-only TMs. It may not be worth the cost though.

Anyway, all things considered, I look at Tauros and see something 1 tier higher than Aipom, at most. On average, the tiers represent a significant difference in power which is less than the differential between Tauros and Aipom. So whether they end up as High B/Low B, or Low B/High C, or whatever, it’s not A vs D, and that’s what needs to be fixed.

As for the Sentret line, it does the Friend Ball thing better, has more support options which it can use more effectively than both Tauros and Aipom, and also has early game utility as well as greater accessibility. It deserves to be at Tauros's level. Hits physically slightly weaker (but regardless if you get it early game or later game with Friend Ball, has happiness working in its favor), takes special attacks slightly better, takes physical attacks slightly worse.

The Rattata line is probably around Aipom's level, maybe slightly below because while it does get the early game Hyper Fang, it becomes very one-dimensional with Normal attacks, although you can catch it later with a Friend Ball strategy, but at that point it's just a poor man's Furret.

 

[DHR-107]

This is exactly why we do not open the can of worms of comparing one mon directly to another. You're getting so deep into the mathematics of the game that it starts to be nonsensical to continue with the line of thought.

You have to backtrack a small margin to get "early" Aipom, whereas otherwise its available at the same time as Tauros/Miltank. No real advantage there. All of them have similar movesets and options. All get Headbutt. All get access to other decent moves and I think they all get Strength as well if you don't want to use Return. I'd never really looked at them in depth before because I pretty much always use Miltank, but even forgoing the deeply mathematical analysis you guys have done, I'm probably more on board with Aipom moving upwards rather than Miltank/Tauros moving down. As other users have said Normal is actually pretty decent type all round in Gen 2.

Also agree with other sentiments that Chikorita should drop further. I've gotten into the Team Rocket section of the game and it's just... Bad. It relies on its normal coverage a lot to hit everything, and because its not STAB it hits weakly too.

Colonel M Are you still interested in running this or not? I'm not sure there has been much movement on any of the Pokemon in the OP regardless of arguments made for/against.

 

[RBYer]

Because we're comparing mons directly to one another though, we see why this "Speedy Normal" bunch should be close to one another. I don't think that such an oversight as Tauros A/Aipom D would have happened had Pokemon been looked at in categories. The way I look at it is that doing such a comparison gives us a bunch of rankings by type/use which can be seen as "accordions" which have a top and bottom, and then these accordions can subsequently be squished into 1 tier or expanded into many tiers when comparing accordions to one another. For example the aforementioned "Speedy Physical Normal" bunch would be a pretty squished up accordion, probably not spanning beyond more than 2 tiers, unless you include Kenya. Because when you look at the rest of the mons in the game and put it into context, an Aipom isn't really going to compare much differently to the "non-Speedy Physical Normal" Pokemon in the list than a Miltank or whatever we are putting on top does. So by "squishing/expanding the accordion" into context we do actually get a pretty refined view that we wouldn't have had otherwise.

 

[x MAD AXES x]

I'd like to bring up Espeon to move up.

My Eevee evolved at level 34 making it available to get psybeam at 36.

Rival battles are easy for it to sweep with the next one from it being available being burnt tower. when you gain Eevee you can give it mud slap to can deal with his haunter and Magnemite and already beat his Zubat in a 1v1.

The next rival battles I had psybeam espeon which beats his ghost, poisons and you can keep bite due to it being special and beat his Kadabra.

For gyms the next gym when you obtain is the ghost type Morty where the Eevee is immune to basically every move and mud slap and then cursing themselves gets the pokemon up levels quick (the only mons that can hit him is Morty's dream eater gengar).

Eevee due to not evolving however can't take in the fighting gym but due to mudslap Eevee can take out the two Magnemites with also being protecting your other mons from paralysis for the steelix match up.

Next the ice gym where my Eevee evolved after the battle didn't do that well vs the gym.

The dragon one Espeon swept with it 2HKO Dragonairs and (not sure what it did to kingdra)

Next was the elite 4 where my level 40 Espeon took out a lot of the psychics with bite, 2HKO everyone besides a critical in the first Xatu.

Then the poison you outspeed and psybeam everything but possibly crobat who may outspeed and forretress who doesn't damage Espeon and vice versa.

Fighting team is OHKO besides onix which Espeon can still beat

Next is dark which you'd think Espeon would be dead weight but she is able to kill the Gengar and vileplume for your team.

I didn't really use her vs the champion besides Aerodactyl and Charizard which she beat and could survive the hyper beams from both.

After game into kanto where I am at the moment I have obviously swept the poison gym.

This is how far I have got but looking at the gyms Espeon can definitely fight vs Sabrina and kill Misty's ace.

 

[Colonel M]

Finally people realize Chikorita is awful in 2017 and I'm not the only one.

atsync okay so looking through this I'll post my comments:

Bellsprout has a lot of issues that prevent it from being a great Pokemon, the main ones being its poor typing, thin move pool and limited usefulness in important match-ups, although it must be said that Weepinbell actually has slightly higher offensive stats than Meganium (90/85 vs. 82/83), as well as STAB Sludge Bomb eventually. Initially though it is fairly weak. Having Vine Whip as its Grass STAB for practically all of Johto, with its middling power and 10 PP, is pretty bad, and until Acid and Sludge Bomb come along it doesn't have a lot else it can use. Early access to options like Growth and Sleep Powder help it out a bit but these strategies aren't ideal for an "efficient" run where you are looking to beat things as quickly as possible rather than setting up and crippling.

There are two main things that I can say that are positive about Bellsprout. Firstly, Bellsprout is extremely easy to add to a team. It comes very early in the game, and it grinds very quickly. Just take it to Dark Cave and kill lots of Geodude (60% encounter rate plus high experience yield). It took me well under 10 minutes to get Bellsprout to match my team, which is faster than most of the other early route Pokemon.

Secondly, it happens to be a good partner for Cyndaquil because of its ability to counter Rock- and Water-types. Route 32 in particular has several Pokemon of these types and Bellsprout can cover these if you picked Cyndaquil. There are other occasions where Grass excels too, and of course the rival will have picked Totodile if you picked Cyndaquil, so there's another target.

Still, even if you did pick Cyndaquil, carrying Bellsprout on your team is a bit of a burden because there are many other parts of the game where it just sucks. Bellsprout may very well be the best Grass-type to pick if you didn't go for Chikorita, but that's a low bar considering how poor Grass is as a type in GSC.

Yeah, probably my same sentiments. Bellsprout is a slightly better Grass-type, but realistically not saying much.

This has been discussed to death. I have previously been among the first to defend it because "it's a starter", but as I've used it more and more I find myself liking it less and less!

Much of what I've just said about Bellsprout also applies here, and in the long run it could be argued that Bellsprout has the edge because of STAB Sludge Bomb. Bellsprout also evolves to Weepinbell long before Bayleef evolves to Meganium which exacerbates the differences in attacking stats (but this is negated by Bellsprout's poorer move pool), and Bellsprout is compatible with all the starters and not just itself. Chikorita does have the edge earlier on though thanks to its access to Headbutt as a back-up option for the many times where its Grass STAB isn't appropriate, and of course Razor Leaf is a far superior move to Vine Whip. Pick your poison, I guess. Or just don't pick either!

Thank Christ. Alright, let's get that drop down going.

Another Pokemon that's been discussed quite a bit, and I really don't think I can say anything else about it. It's a starter with good typing and stats, but it has a bad move pool during the Quilava stage which has a significant impact on its power during mid-Johto.

I haven't tried the "Fire Blast ASAP" strategy on it yet and will try it in another run. I found it mediocre on Growlithe but Quilava is a bit stronger so we'll see.

Probably worthwhile, but the main flaw with "Fire Blast ASAP" is that not only is there the accuracy issue, but there's the PP issue which is a big deal. This doesn't matter as much in big battles, and I'd argue it to be a buff in some of them since it gives Cyndaquil more immediate power, but it can hurt out in the fields as it's something you want to use sparingly against things like Team Rocket and the like. I think it's good and probably doesn't shake up Cyndaquil much - worth adding to the notes if you're doing the Game Corner.

Why am I discussing these together? Because there's an in-game trade for a Rhydon in Blackthorn City that possibly represents the "best" way to use the Rhyhorn line, but to use it requires a female Dragonair to trade it for. The only way in which you could reasonably have a female Dragonair at that moment would be to obtain it as a Dratini from the game corner and then use it on your team until you reach Blackthorn, by which time it will have evolved and will be available to trade away.

Dratini requires 42000 Pokedollars to purchase without gambling and I can tell you that having this much money upon arriving in Goldenrod is pretty much impossible, although you can come close (as stated previously I had around 35000 at this point when actively saving money). You may opt to battle some more trainers post-Goldenrod for more money, or you can try play Card Flip for the rest – it took me about 30 minutes to gain 600 coins with Card Flip to give a general idea of the kind of time investment required. Dratini comes at level 10 and you'll need to grind for something either way.

As far as its performance is concerned, it wasn't as bad as I was expecting, although I started with low expectations anyway. Dratini doesn't have the greatest stats and Dragonair is just a modest improvement (Dragonite is pretty much out of reach until the very end of the game) so it'll need some support. It kind of plays like a Water-type without the STAB. You can teach it Headbutt right away and it'll get Surf and Icy Wind later too. Fire Blast, etc., are options too but that's more money invested on top of buying Dratini in the first place. I thought it was kind of neat that it's one of the few non-Water-types to get Waterfall too – this allows players to avoid stacking their actual Water-type with all the Water HMs without having a dedicated slave, if they so desire.

I found its access to Thunder Wave at least useful as a support option for Whitney's Miltank, which is way easier to deal with when it's slowed down. Otherwise you can expect its match-ups to be slightly inferior versions of those a Water-type could manage.

As for Rhydon, it isn't that great. It's just a late-game Geodude. I think there has been plenty of discussion about how Geodude tends to be less useful during the second half of Johto, so you can imagine how Rhydon performs, boosted experience or not. Rhydon does have a large move pool but that doesn't necessarily translate to a good one. It's lacking in good STAB options until the Earthquake TM comes along, and if I have to be honest…Earthquake is actually not that amazing of a move for the Elite 4. It has a few targets, but Lance, for example, doesn't care about it at all.

If you obtain Rhydon at the earliest moment you'll find it will be useful for the Goldenrod Rocket grunts and maybe some of Route 45, and this is why I think the in-game trade Rhydon is the best way to use it despite the hassle requires to obtain it in the first place. But it sucks against Clair's gym and there are plenty of Water- and Grass-types along the routes leading up to the Pokemon League that will make it think twice.

I think with that being said I can make a separate listing for the in-game trade since it's "slightly" better than the Rhyhorn you get oh so late, but honestly I don't think it's saying much because the detour is uh... really awful and the cost is super high. It's probably the same rank as Rhyhorn, honestly. Just decent enough to separate it.

My experiences with Silver are based on those in Silver – in Gold, it is obtained under different circumstances.

It's just a fairly mediocre Poison-type that is burdened by the ridiculous among of time required to grind it. Ekans only has Wrap initially and it doesn't get anything remotely "decent" until Bite at level 15 so grinding it is a drag even with wild Hoppip providing what is essentially free experience. Ekans does learn a couple of usable moves for the first half of Johto, but even with Bite, Dig and Headbutt, its performance really isn't that great. Arbok doesn't really take off until Sludge Bomb arrives and at that point its performance is ok. STAB Sludge Bomb is a fairly reliable attack against stuff that doesn't resist it at least, so Arbok can be a handy choice for routes.

As for match-ups, it must be said that Ekans is quite poor for Bugsy's Scyther despite the Bug resistance. Ekans can't do much damage and I found that Scyther was able to use Ekans as an opportunity to start generating powerful Fury Cutters (although Bugsy's AI is a bit unpredictable in my experience). It can use Dig in some match-ups; paired with its Poison resistance, it's decent for Team Rocket grunts too. Overall though, I think the time investment that you must put into it is too much for Ekans to be a good choice for a decent run.

Yeah for sure. Ekans is best left in lower ranks. Mono-Poison is pretty plagued in earlier gens IMO, and this one is no exception. There isn't a Grass-gym early on to abuse its one advantage, and it only has a defensive advantage against 2 gyms and one of them it still can get trucked by (Chuck's Poliwrath has Hypnosis + Surf).

Geodude is an oddity because its performance varies so greatly from battle to battle. As stated by others, it is at its best during the start of the game and is among the best choices at that point. During early routes Geodude will often find itself walling Pokemon completely with its high Defence and useful resistances, although it will need assistance with the odd Water- and Grass-type that appears. It's also well served for STAB options early-game and it can contribute to varying degrees against the first 4 gyms. It is less useful for the second half, although it still has moments where it can shine, such as against Team Rocket and Jasmine to an extent. It's hurt by having no real upgrades to its move set after its early game options. Rock Throw and Rollout are all it gets for Rock STAB, and it'll be stuck with Dig and Magnitude until Earthquake comes along (it gets Earthquake at level 41 – this is around the same time or possibly after the TM will be obtained anyway, but it does allow for the TM to be used by something else). It's also slow as hell :(

At some point I intend on doing a run with Golem instead of Graveler. When using Graveler, I found I was hitting stuff and falling just short of a OHKO that Golem would have achieved, and on top of that Golem is a bit faster. This may help in match-ups in particular. For example, I found Graveler was unable to reliably beat Jasmine's Steelix (needs favourable rolls from Magnitude, Iron Tail 2HKOed in response), and I also found I need to use 2 X-Speeds on Graveler to ensure that it out-sped Morty's Gengar and avoided Hypnosis, where Golem might do it with one. Watch this space.

I'll keep an eye on that whenever you get a chance. If for some reason they aren't a tier different, they may be worthy of a split.

Growlithe more or less plays like a slightly worse Quilava that will never evolve pre-Elite 4 but has some extra moves to pick from (although Bite is the only one with any real use). Growlithe can be obtained before Whitney in Gold/Silver by heading north from Goldenrod City and up to where Sudowoodo is. There's a patch of grass there with wild level 13 Growlithe. Grinding it to match my team took roughly 20 minutes (animations on) which isn't as bad as I thought it would be. The usefulness of getting it this early is hurt by its poor match-up against Miltank but it would have taken more time had I waited and any time saved is a plus. Unfortunately, Growlithe itself happens to be in the Slow experience group and therefore requires large amounts of experience to level up in the long run. This was burdensome not just for itself but also for its team mates.

Like Quilava, it's burdened by a move pool containing mostly weak moves. It only has Ember for STAB from level up until level 34 when it gets Flame Wheel, and it only has Bite, Headbutt and Dig for alternatives. When using Growlithe, I decided to go out of my way and invest in the Fire Blast TM. I found the power to be very good, but I didn't like that Growlithe was relying so much on it. The strategy might have worked if Fire Blast was only required occasionally and Ember was doing the heavy lifting, but there are too many opponents where I felt compelled to use Fire Blast which inevitably missed at annoying times, and it has just 5 PP. I also found Growlithe to be a bit slow at times.

Growlithe is still ok for some under-levelled route stuff and it does have some good match-ups like Jasmine, so despite its flaws it still has some use, but mostly it isn't worth the effort and is not a good choice for an efficient run.

Yeah honestly Growlithe is just missing its evolution, but man it's so meh as a Growlithe for so long. I'd honestly drop it after Jasmine if I'm being honest at the latest.

If Dratini is like a Water-type without the STAB boost, it could also be said that Heracross is like a Normal-type without STAB.

Normally Heracross would be let down by the difficulty in finding a tree that generates wild Heracross, but since this isn't actually "random" and can be calculated, finding the right tree is trivial.

I found Heracross to be pretty good. Its move pool is unfortunately limited by its lack of good STAB moves for pretty much all of Johto (aside from Reversal possibly, but that comes late and needs to be set up properly), with only Normal moves and eventually Earthquake to pick from, but Heracross' Attack is so high that it'll often tear through trainers quite easily, especially early game where its base stats far exceed most of the other Pokemon that appear at that point.

Heracross is not as useful in important match-ups and is downright useless in a few of them (hi Morty), so Heracross' role is mostly limited to routes, but it's so good at doing that that it is a pretty good choice overall. It also comes at a pretty decent level upon capture and so doesn't require much time investment to get it going. I found that it started to lag just a bit towards the end of Johto when route Pokemon start to evolve and can more easily tank neutral hits though.

Nothing really to add, though definitely cool that someone used Heracross seriously in a run-through.

This is underrated in my opinion. It is one of the most accessible Pokemon in the game and while it doesn't come flying out of the blocks upon capture, it gets a strong STAB really early, good coverage options to hit resistances (Shadow Ball for Rival's Haunter/Gengar; Dig for his Magnemite/Magneton) and stats that are distributed well (on par with Miltank in power and speed, but worse in bulk).

Having said that, Rattata tends to contribute more on routes than in match-ups. Normal doesn't really "counter" anything and in later match-ups in particular Raticate will do little more than take a nice chuck out of an opponent and then eat a big hit in response. On routes though, it's in its element – it'll happily tear through stuff with its high base power STAB and good Speed. It hits a particular peak just after it evolves to Raticate, but stays useful for the rest of way through the game.

This doesn't totally surprise me since Rattata also gets to leech the advantage of the Attack boost from the badges early on and it has solid options early on for attacking (Hyper Fang, Dig, etc). If it's ranked too low, I'm definitely down to raising it a bit.

===

I'm going to look over some of the stuff later on (dammit I need a secretary sometimes holy fuck), but yes we definitely need to update this as DHR-107 mentioned. I'm going to look at this right now and update what I think is fair and what probably should drop. I will say that I will add the Rhydon (In-game trade) since, as noted, it is physically possible to obtain and it has a somewhat small advantage over Rhyhorn.

===

Okay quick glance outside of adding Rhydon, these are the changes I made so far:

Rises

Rattata C -> B
Mareep (GS) B -> A
Aipom D -> C

Rattata was honestly overdue. It's pretty solid throughout a good portion of the game and has ways to keep itself gimping around for quite a while. I wouldn't advise using it all game and I could argue that Spearow is a better investment, but if you're not using Shadow Ball on anyone else Rattata is a solid choice for it.

Mareep is a Pokemon I really felt needed to rise since it's one of the better Electric-types and has a solid field advantage. It does okay in some of the gym fights later on, and then has some presence all throughout the game. Flaaffy and Ampharos are pretty solid evolutions. Mareep is only really held back by bad Speed, but honestly it's durable and it has enough perks to be useful throughout the entire game in my opinion.

Aipom is better than I gave it credit for. Not by a lot, mind, but enough to where "if you want to use it for a while, why the fuck not?"

Drops

Chikorita B -> C
Jigglypuff C -> D
Elekid (C) C -> E
Smoochum (C) C -> E
Magby (C) C -> E
Igglybuff (C) D -> E
Cleffa (C) D -> E
Tentacool B -> C

Chikorita, as many including myself have advertised, is godawful. I'm not bothering with a psycho analysis. If you think Chikorita is good, you probably visit this site often.

Jigglypuff has a really bad training curve for a mediocre-at-best output. Really not worthwhile in the sea of Normal-types.

Crystal Eggs dropped to E due to something that was supposed to happen months ago.

===

I'll keep Espeon as a potential discussion point since I think it's a mon that in spite of its rather... limiting cost has a nice perk of being a pretty powerful Psychic-type. I'm also open to dropping Stantler as well as maybe re-arranging some of the Pokemon in general. So keep the discussion flowing while I try to work out the finalized list.

I'm also going to potentially look around for people who are willing to help (that are tier list enthusiasts) with finalizing the list. In the meantime, I will see what I can do to pretty the tier list and maybe get some descriptions rolling.

 

[RBYer]

I'd like to bring up Espeon to move up.

My Eevee evolved at level 34 making it available to get psybeam at 36.

All I see you mention between level 20 and Morty (where you were Level 36) is the Rival battle. Was this not a time consuming process to get it to this point? How did you do it? I quite like Espeon but the process of training it just isn't all that smooth. At later levels though, it's pretty great. Why did Psybeam/Psychic have to be so late though?

 

[x MAD AXES x]

All I see you mention between level 20 and Morty (where you were Level 36) is the Rival battle. Was this not a time consuming process to get it to this point? How did you do it? I quite like Espeon but the process of training it just isn't all that smooth. At later levels though, it's pretty great. Why did Psybeam/Psychic have to be so late though?

I didn't feel it was time consuming as yes you have to back track one city to get Eevee but when you are in goldenrod you can go underground and give it a haircut for easy friendship and stock up on calcium's etc (wasn't really using my money elsewhere).

Since I taught it mud slap (not a loss in a tm as it isn't that useful) Eevee was my main electric/steel killer as I had started with totodile and had ariados (boxed later as it's learnpool is bad) togetic (boxed later as it's terrible), weepinbell (wasn't impactful until sludge bomb tm).

Before it evolved there wasn't really any impactful fights as I decided to go to lake rage first to try and get sludge bomb asap.

There was no ordinary trainer fight that I was like damn Eevee can't take this and the same with the rockets in the area where you have to kill the electrode generator. After that I then skipped the ice gym and went back towards the lighthouse and Eevee obviously can't deal with the fighting gym and the steel gym mudslap took the Magnemites out so feraligatr didn't have to deal with being paralyzed vs a sunny day steelix but at level 34 Eevee evolved.

I was dealing with two friendship pokemon at once, Eevee and Togepi and I can say Togepi is definitely not worth it and I'm happy I gave that haircut to Eevee.

I know in this game you can increase friendship from

Leveling up
Stat boost items
Fighting in important battles (I'm guessing this is gyms, rivals and rocket executives)
Steps

I did backtrack and get a pink bow but that was for Togepi as I had taught it swift so Eevee didn't get any use out of it.

When you do get Espeon though she sweeps every enemy with that 130 base special attack and only needs bite (ghost and psychic) and psybeam/psychic (everything else) it only really leaves a bad mu with steel types and due to it getting bite it also makes Espeon have the best match up to deal with psychics and misdrevous (as Gengar is part psychic.

 

[Robcore]

I've tried using Eevee quite a few times in Gold/Silver as both Umbreon and Espeon.

(Don't get me started on the piss-take that you get it at Level 20 in Crystal too where you can actually evolve it in to Vaporeon, Jolteon and/or Flareon, but Water Gun / Thundershock / Ember respectively come at Level 16)

It's main issue is that it needs a fair bit of babying past the examples you've used, especially when at that point you'll already have something that can utilise those instances better. It takes some looking after, although certainly rewards you once it's reached Level 36. Issue is, you're already through Johto at this point.

 

[x MAD AXES x]

Not really as mine evolved at the ice gym, so I had the dragon gym, victory road route and the elite 4 (which Espeon isn't dead weight in any of the sections and beats at least 2 of the elite 4 Pokemons at minimum) then the champion which is can take hyper beams and win

 

[atsync]

It must be said that Eevee is a Normal-type that arrives at a high level relative to the likely average level of your current team (i.e. won't need prolonged grinding unlike other Normals). It does have access to the usual STAB Headbutt/Return, and while it is probably inferior to a lot of the other Normal-types (its Attack is higher than Noctowl's though!!!), I could see it being able to contribute more than several of the non-Normal types available at that point until it gets to evolve to Espeon/Umbreon. I'll test it myself eventually.

Having done previous tests on saving money for the purposes of the Game Corner prizes, I'm curious as to how viable a similar strategy to get lots of vitamins ASAP (to boost Eevee's happiness more quickly) would be.

On another note, I have completed a run-through with Dunsparce, Nidoran-F, Natu and Wooper. I will do write-ups on these like I did before at another time, but to quickly comment about these guys:

• Dunsparce is actually fairly decent at battling, but there are issues relating to obtaining it in the first place that make it one of the worst Normal-types.
• Nidoran-F is really good!
• Natu stinks - ok stats but awful Johto move set options.
• Wooper is really good once it evolves and learns all its best moves but is fairly weak initially (not really that strong and slow as hell), which makes me wonder if it is better to just wait until Surf is obtained and usable in the field to catch fully evolved Quagsire and skip the Wooper phase.

My next run will involve Spearow, Goldeen, Exeggcute and Sudowoodo.

Probably worthwhile, but the main flaw with "Fire Blast ASAP" is that not only is there the accuracy issue, but there's the PP issue which is a big deal. This doesn't matter as much in big battles, and I'd argue it to be a buff in some of them since it gives Cyndaquil more immediate power, but it can hurt out in the fields as it's something you want to use sparingly against things like Team Rocket and the like. I think it's good and probably doesn't shake up Cyndaquil much - worth adding to the notes if you're doing the Game Corner.

I've just tried it out in my most recent run and this is more or less how it works. Fire Blast by itself isn't a baid-aid solution that solves Quilava's move pool problem (i.e. it shouldn't be used as an excuse to try and send Cyndaquil flying up the tier list), but it is still a useful option that can give Quilava a better chance at contributing against some tougher opponents that it would normally be a problem for it. Random Koffings/Weezings with Selfdestruct from Team Rocket are a good example of such opponents.

I think with that being said I can make a separate listing for the in-game trade since it's "slightly" better than the Rhyhorn you get oh so late, but honestly I don't think it's saying much because the detour is uh... really awful and the cost is super high. It's probably the same rank as Rhyhorn, honestly. Just decent enough to separate it.

Originally, I was more thinking that the in-game Rhydon trade should be the only entry representing the Rhyhorn line since it would represent the most optimal way of using it. However, I've also just realized that this option isn't available in Crystal since Rhydon was change to Dodrio in that game (also requires female Dragonair), and so a seaparate Rhyhorn entry would need to be included for players playing Crystal.

Perhaps we should have two entries separated by version: one for GS representing the in-game trade Rhydon and one for Crystal representing wild caught Rhyhorn in Victory Road? This could also be done for Doduo (wild caught in GS) and Dodrio (in-game trade in Crystal). That wouldn't really be too different from what you're proposing but I think it's a more accurate way of listing them.

Drops
Tentacool B -> C

May I ask why?

 

[Lolpanther]

I'm currently replaying Gold and I might give my input as well (hopefully it's not completely off topic):

Atm I'm in Ecruteak City and have yet to battle Morty. The current team is Quilava, Kadabra, Gastly, Nidorino and Dratini.

Nothing has to be added about Quilava and Kadabra. They are without a doubt S/A tier. Actually, I could see Cyndaquil in S tier as well because having Ember for a bit longer doesn't faze me as much, but this has probably already been discussed.

I'm on the fence about Gastly being in the A-tier. I love the Gengar line but licking your way to the 4th gym sucks. The only way to give it more bite would be Thunder, but that requires you to spend way too much time in the Game Corner, 5500 coins is just too much. On the bright side, Hypnosis is very helpful and Mean Look will be helpful to catch the roaming beasts later on, even Curse is kinda good in-game to wear down boss Pokemon like Miltank, so this is a plus. Still, up to this point, Gastly is purely an utilitymon. Definitely worth of B, but A? And yes, I'm sure Gengar will be great, but can an A-tier Pokemon really be allowed to be mediocre for 30% of the main game? You could make the same argument for Magikarp, which is even more useless but still in the A-tier. Unless you are referring to the Red Gyarados, but in that case there really should be 2 separate entries, as both provide a vastly different playthrough.

As for Nidoran/Nidorino, I absolutely agree with A tier. One of the main arguments to downgrade it was that you have to backtrack to New Bark Town to get a Moon Stone. But that's no problem at all, and here's why: If you follow the story closely, you will catch Nidoran after Goldenrod. And after beating/catching Sudowoodo, the game basically begs you to go back to your hometown because you don't have to make the huge detour to Azalea Town again. Furthermore, the backtrack is worth it for more reasons than the Moon Stone. You can use it to deliver the mail from the guard in Goldenrod to get your TM Nightmare, and you are supposed to show Prof. Elm the hatched Togepi to get an Everstone. And it gets better. Instead of taking the Moon Stone in the Tohjo Falls (which requires Surf and a defeated Morty), you could also advise your mom at the beginning of the game to save money for you, and when you get back to New Bark Town, deposit additional money so that your overall bank account at home holds ~P$18,000-20,000 (if you fought all possible trainer encounters so far, you should only have to deposit an additional P$12,000). This is the threshold your bank account has to exceed for your mom to buy you a Moon Stone (expenses for items bought before the Moon Stone purchase included). Then go to Ecruteak City, battle the Kimono Girls to trigger mom's purchases and at the end you will obtain the Moon Stone AND Surf as reward for defeating the Kimono girls. Evolve your Nidoroyal and (optionally) teach it Surf to gain a valuable team member before Morty. This is how I did it and everything went according to keikaku. I almost had not enough time to evolve my Nidoran into Nidorino before acquiring the Moon Stone (it's Lv 18 now).

Lastly, Dratini. Given, I haven't used it for long, but so far I'd say it deserves to go to C. I agree that spending time at the Game Corner is the major downside that prevents this Pokemon from going much higher, but once you have it, it's solid. Teach it Headbutt, and it becomes one mean ParaFlincher from the start. Then it gains Surf at Ecruteak City for decent coverage. You could even teach it Attract as 4th move, because Attract+Thunder Wave+Headbutt makes all NPCs wish they could commit digital suicide. In short, I agree that the requirements to get Dratini are bad, but I don't agree that Dratini is just dead meat on your team. Just don't use Twister. Twister sucks a**.

One more thing: Should we make the distinction between trade and no trade for any Pokemon, not just those who evolve by trade? Take Nidoking and Nidoqueen for example. They are already A tier, but they still are not as good as their RBY counterparts because they lack Thunderbolt and Ice Beam. Trading them to RBY to teach them these moves would upgrade those 2 to borderline S. So if we do make the distinction between trade/no trade for some Pokemon, why not do the same for all Pokemon?

 

[Karxrida]

I think C is too generous for Dratini since it's a major resource sink that only results in a mediocre Pokémon, plus Dragonite only comes when you don't even need it anymore. It's fine in D.

One more thing: Should we make the distinction between trade and no trade for any Pokemon, not just those who evolve by trade? Take Nidoking and Nidoqueen for example. They are already A tier, but they still are not as good as their RBY counterparts because they lack Thunderbolt and Ice Beam. Trading them to RBY to teach them these moves would upgrade those 2 to borderline S. So if we do make the distinction between trade/no trade for some Pokemon, why not do the same for all Pokemon?

(Trade) only applies to Pokémon with trade evolutions. Applying it to anything else opens up a huge can of worms that kind of defeats the purpose of the list.

 

[Lolpanther]

Can you elaborate why you think Dratini is just medicore? Stat-wise maybe, but Dragonair should already be decent, and Surf+Attract+Thunder Wave+Headbutt rocked the game for me so far

 

[Karxrida]

Can you elaborate why you think Dratini is just medicore? Stat-wise maybe, but Dragonair should already be decent, and Surf+Attract+Thunder Wave+Headbutt rocked the game for me so far

Paraflinching opponents to death is hilarious and all, but it's still not very efficient when you're working with non-STAB Headbutt and have to take a turn to paralyze everything and another to use Attract (which doesn't even work on all targets). Dragonair's also kind of physically frail for a second stage Pokémon with its 61 HP and 65 Def, which you're stuck with up to and past the Elite Four and Champion.

 

[Lolpanther]

The 1st turn to paralyze the opponent is a drawback, true, but after that first turn, Dratini is almost always faster than the opponent, which means it will use attract first. The probability that the subsequent attack of the foe gets through is only 37%. And starting with the following turn, it's even less (26%) as you also Headbutt them. Of course only if it's the opposite gender. Still, so far I don't have the feeling that Dratini is 3 whole tiers worse than my other team members, which are mostly A or S tier. Btw, I can't confirm it 100% yet, but I think that the genders of the opponent's Pokemon are similar to the gender of the trainer him-/herself. If this is accurate, one could predict when to use Dratini, namely when the next trainer has the opposite gender of Dratini.

Edit: To further help Dratini, one could also use the Pink Bow which boosts normal type moves by 10% and is available from the beginning of the game (week sibling Tuesdays, Route 29). Add to this that after defeating Whitney, all Normal-Type moves get a 26% damage boost thanks to the zephyr badge attack stat boost and the plain badge normal-type boost, and it becomes clear why even non-stab supported headbutt does considerable damage.

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

sigh I am back and see Zubat is still at B-Rank.

Why?

 

[Random Passerby]

sigh I am back and see Zubat is still at B-Rank.

Why?

Since I was the one who suggested it, let me go through my experience with it years ago.

Caught a Lv13 Golbat in Mt Mortar with a Friend Ball after Morty and uses the Return TM on it. After the Haircut brother trip (you can manipulate Time easily, remember?), it raises in happiness quickly and you can grind during the Bug-Catching Contest or against the trainers in the underground path (Return 2HKOes everything). After it evolved (around Lv 18 - 20), it sweeps the Cianwood Gym, only having to worry about Rock Slide from Machoke. (Surf from Poliwrath deals laughable damage). Can't do anything against Jasmine and Pryce (Dewgong is too bulky and Aurora Beam 2HKOes) although it wipes out Rockets in Mahogany with Return / STAB Fly (even Magnemite is 2HKOed).

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

What?

For real? This much investment? First of all, you catch a LEVEL 13 Pokemon after Morty(although I am sure it is catchable within a higher level, anyways...), than you have to groom it instead of Trade Spearow, Tauros, Stantler or Miltank, you also HAVE to teach it return(and can't use strength until you change them moves up) and than it isn't even useful against two Gym Leaders. It doesn't get Sludge Bomb this gen. And it is the same rank as Stantler, which gets STAB Return, Hypnosis Shadow Ball and Earthquake. Ok

 

[Random Passerby]

What?

For real? This much investment? First of all, you catch a LEVEL 13 Pokemon after Morty(although I am sure it is catchable within a higher level, anyways...), than you have to groom it instead of Trade Spearow, Tauros, Stantler or Miltank, you also HAVE to teach it return(and can't use strength until you change them moves up) and than it isn't even useful against two Gym Leaders. It doesn't get Sludge Bomb this gen. And it is the same rank as Stantler, which gets STAB Return, Hypnosis Shadow Ball and Earthquake. Ok



[But I see the bias in this tier list anyways. Rattata was at the appropriate rank at C and some tail wag from user and rank B at the same time... despite it being really awful compared to the other options]

I don't know how you see it but for me, a Pokemon is judged by its own merits instead of saying "X sucks, use Y instead". Otherwise, we will have Totodile, Abra and some Normals as S while everything else as E. Lv10 - 13 Crobat is workable, especially with a high friendship (Friend Ball, remember?). It evolves very quickly too. Crobat's stats is comparable to your starter's final evo, which is normally obtained around the 8th Gym. Here, you can have it after Morty.

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

The "X sucks, use Y instead" is an appropriate measurement when compared to a higher ranked pokemon or a pokemon which should be higher ranked

Example? B rank Stantler is much better than Crobat. I would even argue Pidgey is better than Zubat which is currently at C rank:

0 Atk Pidgeot Return vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 129-153 (40.1 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Crobat Return vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 95-112 (29.5 - 34.8%) -- 11.3% chance to 3HKO

Pidgey is even earlier aviable, has similar strats to Spearow, but is currently lower than Crobat. And I get your point, I really do about the comparison. BUT why is Pidgey than the C-Rank while Crobat is B? What does Crobat actually do for you?