GSC In-Game Tier List

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Since I was the one who suggested it, let me go through my experience with it years ago.

Caught a Lv13 Golbat in Mt Mortar with a Friend Ball after Morty and uses the Return TM on it. After the Haircut brother trip (you can manipulate Time easily, remember?), it raises in happiness quickly and you can grind during the Bug-Catching Contest or against the trainers in the underground path (Return 2HKOes everything). After it evolved (around Lv 18 - 20), it sweeps the Cianwood Gym, only having to worry about Rock Slide from Machoke. (Surf from Poliwrath deals laughable damage). Can't do anything against Jasmine and Pryce (Dewgong is too bulky and Aurora Beam 2HKOes) although it wipes out Rockets in Mahogany with Return / STAB Fly (even Magnemite is 2HKOed).
What?

For real? This much investment? First of all, you catch a LEVEL 13 Pokemon after Morty(although I am sure it is catchable within a higher level, anyways...), than you have to groom it instead of Trade Spearow, Tauros, Stantler or Miltank, you also HAVE to teach it return(and can't use strength until you change them moves up) and than it isn't even useful against two Gym Leaders. It doesn't get Sludge Bomb this gen. And it is the same rank as Stantler, which gets STAB Return, Hypnosis Shadow Ball and Earthquake. Ok



[But I see the bias in this tier list anyways. Rattata was at the appropriate rank at C and some tail wag from user and rank B at the same time... despite it being really awful compared to the other options]
Just for the protocol, Lv13 Golbat at Mt Mortar is Crystal only. Universally, Golbat in Mt Mortar is only available after gathering 8 badges. Crobat is still justified in the B tier if you choose the optimal way to get Golbat. After Morty, backtrack to Azalea Town, receive the Friend Ball that was already in the making because you are a smart trainer, proceed to the Union Cave, go to B2F, catch Golbat at Lv22 (20% catch rate), take the shortcut to the Ruins of Alph, go to Goldenrod to receive one haircut treatment (optional) proceed to play normally. Lv22 is perfectly fine at that point in the game and even without grooming, Golbat will soon evolve. Crobat's Fly is stronger than Pidgeot's Fly and it's much faster, so it definitely belongs in the B tier. However, I agree that Pidgeot should be B tier as well. It's just a worse Fearow.
 

Colonel M

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I moved Zubat and Tentacool

Zubat - C
Tentacool - B

Also Rattata in B is perfectly fine since it's very good in-game and is one of the first mons that can actually spam Return early on.
 

IronBullet

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Glad to see that Mareep has moved up - Fire Punch is really good coverage for Ampharos and it isn't too slow to make a big difference. Naturally learning Thunder Wave helps a great deal with catching legendaries as well. I also agree with Chikorita moving down, as much as I love its design. Razor Leaf as its strongest consistent STAB move is quite sad, and it's made worse by the fact that Grass-types in general tend to suck in this generation. Heavy reliance on Body Slam / Headbutt isn't fun, and it has a hard time being useful against Team Rocket, several gym leaders and most of the Elite 4.

I'd like to nominate Pidgey and Eevee (Espeon) to be bumped up a rank to B. Pidgey is currently two ranks below Spearow, which I think is rather harsh and does not accurately reflect how close they are in terms of viability. There's no denying the advantages Spearow has - Drill Peck and higher Attack / Speed. Viewed on its own merits, however, Pidgey is a very useful Pokemon to have in its own right. Quick Attack, Gust and Swift via TM are reasonable STAB options until you get Return in Goldenrod mid-game, after which Pidgeot sweeps through a lot of trainers and gyms. STAB Return / Wing Attack does a number on Will, Koga and Karen as well. It has decent enough Attack and Speed (the former is the same as Miltank's), and the higher defenses relative to Fearow actually come in handy against more powerful opponents.

As for Espeon, grinding until it learns Psybeam was not actually that difficult for me. You receive Eevee at a decent level, can buy and teach it Headbutt right away, and as long as you do the usual Happiness-boosting activities (haircut once a day, feeding it minerals, simply walking around and not letting it faint), it should definitely evolve before level 36. Mine evolved at 34 before infiltrating the hideout in Mahogany, after which it easily beat Team Rocket, Pryce, Claire and most of the league simply with Psybeam and Bite.
 

Punchshroom

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  • Wooper is really good once it evolves and learns all its best moves but is fairly weak initially (not really that strong and slow as hell), which makes me wonder if it is better to just wait until Surf is obtained and usable in the field to catch fully evolved Quagsire and skip the Wooper phase.
More than 2 weeks late with a response but better late than never.

Considering Wooper's early important matchups pre-Surf are pretty much done better by Geodude, I'd say it's not a bad idea for one to drop Geodude / Graveler after beating Morty and replace it with Quagsire immediately after. It should be noted that Route 32 Quagsire (the same route you can first catch Wooper) are the best since they come at a minimum level of 20, compared to Ruins of Alph / Union Cave Quagsires which can come as low as lv 15.
 

Colonel M

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More than 2 weeks late with a response but better late than never.

Considering Wooper's early important matchups pre-Surf are pretty much done better by Geodude, I'd say it's not a bad idea for one to drop Geodude / Graveler after beating Morty and replace it with Quagsire immediately after. It should be noted that Route 32 Quagsire (the same route you can first catch Wooper) are the best since they come at a minimum level of 20, compared to Ruins of Alph / Union Cave Quagsires which can come as low as lv 15.
I actually do disagree slightly on a player who chooses Cyndaquil as a starter. I think Wooper is probably one of the better choices at least through Union Cave, though I think Bellsprout is arguably the better choice since it helps tackle another problem Cyndaquil has (Water-types). Cyndaquil / Mareep / Wooper can at least get you going for a while (and then just get Machop for Whitney). But yeah, Quagsire is a bit better / easier once you got Surf.

RE Pidgey and Espeon - I need to look into Espeon more, but B Pidgey seems rather reasonable. I'll allow it.
 
Regarding the Pidgey issue, whether it belongs to B or C I'll leave to Colonel M. However, I disagree with putting it into a different tier than Zubat. Both should either be B or C. Zubat was one of the more often discussed Pokemon in the thread and for a long time, the consensus was B. Now Zubat gets ranked down because someone rightfully points out that it isn't better than Pidgey, which was in C. Fine. But why on earth should Pidgey rise one tier above Zubat immediately afterwards when both are almost equally strong (and they are, otherwise someone would have pointed out their difference on the former 17 pages already)?

Pidgey vs Zubat

pros Pidgey:
- available earlier than Zubat
- STAB Normal /uses Return better than Zubat
- gets Flying type attacks early

cons Pidgey:
- evolves very late into final form (lv.36, probably around Pryce)
- inferior Spearow, there is no objective reason to use this over Spearow

cons Zubat:
- should be caught as Golbat in a Friend Ball to be used with maximum efficiency
- no STAB Normal
- gets good Flying type attacks late

pros Zubat:
- (if caught as described above) starts with 80 bp Return
- evolves much earlier into its final form than Pidgey (Morty if you catch Zubat as soon as possible, Chuck if you catch it as Golbat with the Friend Ball)
- ties or outclasses Pidgeot in literally all stats
- gets 100% accuracy Confuse Ray and Mean Look for the beasts which sets it apart from Spearow
- uses OHKOs with Fly much better than Pidgeot because it's much less likely to go second

Again, these Pokemon don't seem to outclass each other by a tier. If anyone has good reasons to put Pidgey above Zubat when the opposite was the case so far, I'd like to hear them. Also I wouldn't agree with the argument that Pidgey should be higher because it's available earlier, as the trade-off is a late level for reaching its final evolution, where Zubat outclasses it.
 
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Regarding the Pidgey issue, whether it belongs to B or C I'll leave to Colonel M. However, I disagree with putting it into a different tier than Zubat. Both should either be B or C. Zubat was one of the more often discussed Pokemon in the thread and for a long time, the consensus was B. Now Zubat gets ranked down because someone rightfully points out that it isn't better than Pidgey, which was in C. Fine. But why on earth should Pidgey rise one tier above Zubat immediately afterwards when both are almost equally strong (and they are, otherwise someone would have pointed out their difference on the former 17 pages already)?
This logic built into this is faulty. The weaker Pokemon in the higher tier in places where there aren't clearly defined tiers (such as here which makes them technically not "tiers"), are going to be "less than a tier apart" than the stronger Pokemon a tier lower. It's like if each tier represents a number from 1 to 10, there will be 6.4s, there will be 6.6s, there will be 7.4s. If the 7 tier is for those that are closest to 7 and the 6 tier is for those that are closest to 6, then the 6.6 (a weak Pokemon in the 7 tier) will be closer to the 6.4 (a strong Pokemon in the 6 tier) than the 7.4 (a strong Pokemon in the 7 tier). There is no way to arrange tiers so that Pokemon of a higher tier are always worthy of being "in a different tier" or whatever. It's not possible in theory, and it's not possible in reality.

Pidgey vs Zubat

pros Pidgey:
- available earlier than Zubat
- STAB Normal /uses Return better than Zubat
- gets Flying type attacks early
It's available/better earlier and then by the time Zubat catches up, Pidgey is already on the verge of learning Return. Yes, __bat (who will probably be Golbat) can do non-STAB Bites against the Ghost gym, and then what? By the time Golbat is evolving into Crobat, Pidgeotto is hitting harder than Crobat with Return.

cons Pidgey:
- evolves very late into final form (lv.36, probably around Pryce)
- inferior Spearow, there is no objective reason to use this over Spearow
Being more directly comparable to Spearow (Kenya should probably be an S-tier Pokemon) doesn't make Pidgey any less superior to Zubat.

cons Zubat:
- should be caught as Golbat in a Friend Ball to be used with maximum efficiency
- no STAB Normal
- gets good Flying type attacks late
Just to add to this, Pidgey/Pidgeotto can also be caught with a Friend Ball, and better take advantage of starting with 80 BP Return. Zubat also doesn't have a STAB normal.

I think what you are doing too much is comparing how well they do Flying attacks, when Pidgeot barely even needs to use Flying attacks because it's got one particular Normal attack which can be used against the majority of the game. Most of the things Crobat can do, Pidgeot can also do, but it has superior options at its disposal so it doesn't.

pros Zubat:
- (if caught as described above) starts with 80 bp Return
- evolves much earlier into its final form than Pidgey (Morty if you catch Zubat as soon as possible, Chuck if you catch it as Golbat with the Friend Ball)
- ties or outclasses Pidgeot in literally all stats
- gets 100% accuracy Confuse Ray and Mean Look for the beasts which sets it apart from Spearow
- uses OHKOs with Fly much better than Pidgeot because it's much less likely to go second
Pidgeot goes first against almost everything with the way most people play through, and while Crobat is missing and hitting weaker with Fly, Pidgeot is rampaging with Return.

If you do value Mean Look a lot, Crobat does get it and Pidgeot doesn't. It is a legitimate "pro" which can impact your game experience. However, Crobat isn't a great Mean Look user due to its weaknesses, and lack of Sleep move.

Again, these Pokemon don't seem to outclass each other by a tier.
They don't need to. If you ranked all Pokemon from best to worst, the ones next to each other won't "outclass by a tier".
If anyone has good reasons to put Pidgey above Zubat when the opposite was the case so far, I'd like to hear them.
Pidgey is stronger at battling for the vast majority of the game, and is mainly tiered for how it performs in a significant portion of the game where Zubat is not good.

Also I wouldn't agree with the argument that Pidgey should be higher because it's available earlier, as the trade-off is a late level for reaching its final evolution, where Zubat outclasses it.
If by "outclass" you mean it hits with Fly better than Pidgey hits with Return in a limited window of time, then sure, but Fly takes 2 turns, and misses sometimes, and isn't really that ideal of a playthrough move. And Pidgey's Return surpasses Crobat's Fly in power by the time it is evolved which is probably before Pidgey really starts needing it anyway.

I don't know why Friend Ball Golbat should even be compared to Pidgey though. A better comparison would be GS Dodrio, and Dodrio is way better in that case.
 
There is no way to arrange tiers so that Pokemon of a higher tier are always worthy of being "in a different tier" or whatever. It's not possible in theory, and it's not possible in reality.
Yes, but it is very much possible to put Pokemon of a similar tier into the same tier. That's the entire point of this thread.

Let's say each Pokemon in the B tier is an 8.0-8.9 and each Pokemon in the C tier is an 7.0-7.9. For the scenario we just witnessed to appear (Pidgey one tier up, Zubat one tier down), both had to be tiered wrong in the first place. Not extremely likely but possible. Since Zubat and Pidgey stayed in their previous tiers for a long time without anybody complaining, it's much more likely that Zubat was a solid 8 (8.5 or 8.4) rather than an 8.0 or 8.1 while Pidgey was a solid 7 (7.5) rather than a 7.9, otherwise we would have noticed this sooner. However, assuming that Pidgey was indeed much better than previously thought, I could see it advance to B. However, for the tier switch to still make sense, Zubat's score would have to be lowered by at least 0.5 as a direct result of Pidgey rising to B tier so that it basically took the spot of Zubat. This is rather unlikely, as both Pokemon are vastly different.

I have no problem seeing Pidgey in the B tier, as I agree that it is basically an inferior Spearow, which is still good. But it makes 0 sense to downgrade Zubat because of Pidgey entering the B tier, as Zubat doesn't suddenly become worse because of this change. So if Zubat really should be in C, why didn't people point it out sooner despite Zubat being one of the more heavily tested Pokemon in this thread? There is a reason why people saw it in B for so long, because its strengths justify it:

It's available/better earlier
Yes, and Golbat evolves much earlier. With bat, you spend 25% more of the main game playing as a final evo (Crobat bst 535) than with Pidgey (Pidgeotto bst 349). So that's not a legitimate argument in favor of Pidgey. Zubat 1, Pidgey 1

Yes, __bat (who will probably be Golbat) can do non-STAB Bites against the Ghost gym
Yes it can. However, Pidgey can use Gust against Bugsy, so it has the upper hand there, let's keep it fair. Zubat 2, Pidgey 2

By the time Golbat is evolving into Crobat, Pidgeotto is hitting harder than Crobat with Return.
2 points: 1. The difference isn't that great. Crobat's Return does 16-19% on Miltank, Pidgeotto's Return does 22-26% on Miltank (no EV investment applied, yes I already considered Whitney's Normal-type boost). 2. Crobat has a base speed of 130, Pidgeotto has a base speed of 71. So for at least 25% of the game, Crobat will hit many things twice that Pidgeotto hits only once in the same time, thus doing in fact more damage with Return than Pidgeotto in some cases. Zubat 3, Pidgey 3

Being more directly comparable to Spearow (Kenya should probably be an S-tier Pokemon) doesn't make Pidgey any less superior to Zubat.
Exactly! And that circumstance in itself doesn't make Zubat any less equal to Pidgey. The only point one could make is "Why are you using Pidgey when you could use Spearow"? There is no objective answer to this question, only a subjective one: "Because I WANT to use Pidgey over Spearow". There is however an objective answer to "Why are you using Zubat over Spearow?", which is "Confuse Ray, Mean Look, Bite". Zubat 4, Pidgey 4

Pidgey/Pidgeotto can also be caught with a Friend Ball, and better take advantage of starting with 80 BP Return.
The highest level in Johto you can catch Pidgeotto at is 17. That's still 19 levels until you get Pidgeot. Golbat on the other hand evolves very soon after being caught in a Friend Ball, and Pidgeotto doesn't really have that much of a better Return than Crobat due to the bad speed stat I mentioned above. Furthermore, Crobat's Fly/Wing Attack is much better than Pidgeotto's and still better than Pidgeot's. Zubat 5, Pidgey 5

I think what you are doing too much is comparing how well they do Flying attacks, when Pidgeot barely even needs to use Flying attacks because it's got one particular Normal attack which can be used against the majority of the game. Most of the things Crobat can do, Pidgeot can also do, but it has superior options at its disposal so it doesn't.
That logic is flawed, I could as well say that Crobat doesn't need STAB Return because it can use Flying-Type and Dark-Type Attacks to hit other Pokemon super effective where Pidgeotto would only hit neutral and do just as much damage. Most of the things Crobat can do, Pidgeot can also do? Most of the things Pidgeot can do, Crobat can also do. And you get Crobat for 25% more of the main game. Zubat 6, Pidgey 6

Pidgeot goes first against almost everything with the way most people play through
Is that a fact or an assumption?

and while Crobat is missing and hitting weaker with Fly, Pidgeot is rampaging with Return.
Fly has 95% accuracy. Give me a break. However, I agree that Pidgeot's (not Pidgeotto's) STAB Return is a true pro. And to be honest, that's the only point where I can clearly see Pidgeot having the upper hand. Zubat 6, Pidgey 7

If you do value Mean Look a lot, Crobat does get it and Pidgeot doesn't. It is a legitimate "pro" which can impact your game experience. However, Crobat isn't a great Mean Look user due to its weaknesses, and lack of Sleep move.
Crobat is the fastest Mean Look user in the game, which means it's very likely to work on the beasts, even if Crobat's level is a bit lower than 40. Furthermore, Crobat gets Confuse Ray, which is neat thanks to 100% accuracy. Pidgeot has no similar stat-affecting attack except for toxic, which Crobat also gets. Zubat 7, Pidgey 7

Also again, Crobat outclasses or ties with Pidgeot in all stats. The only stat in which this doesn't matter is Attack because Pidgeot hits harder with Return anyway. So the only argument one could make to tier Pidgey higher than Zubat is STAB Return, while ignoring Zubat's advantages (Mean Look, Confuse Ray, Bite) at the same time. I stand by my opinion. Zubat can't be C when Pidgey is B.
 

Xen

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You’re focusing too much on their inheriant similarities (which once again, comparing Pokémon in these lists ultimately just opens pandora’s box) while completely overlooking the investment they require to add to your team. Zubat essentially requires you to catch a Golbat with a Friend Ball for it to function since Zubat early game is a godawful experience, and getting that Friend Ball requires a backtrack and a little bit of time. Catching said Golbat may also require a few resets since the Friend Ball’s catch rate isn’t very high (it’s basically a Poke Ball).

As for Pidgey, all you have to do is snag it after you drop off the egg and get your first set of balls, and you’re set. It also contributes early game against Bellsprouts and vs Bugsy, while Zubat doesn’t have much against those opponents in terms of options.

Also, considering these tiers lists are based off efficiency, I wouldn’t consider Confuse Ray and Mean Look to be major selling points for Zubat.
 
Really? I compare Zubat and Pidgey in every point that has been brought up while your post has only availability as main criticism but I'm focusing too much on similarities? I focused on ALL points, including availability, and I also stated that Pidgey has better availability, but that it also evolves much later when Crobat becomes much more useful during that part of the game. And yes, Zubat doesn't do much against Bugsy. So? Pidgey does not much against Morty. Why should this point be a negative point for Zubat but neutral for Pidgey?

I did not focus on similarities, I focused on all aspects that were presented and came to the conclusion that both Pokemon are quite similar in several of these aspects. That's a big difference, and if the point of this thread is not to put Pokemon that are similar in playthrough value into the same tier, I don't know what is.
 

Xen

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Really? I compare Zubat and Pidgey in every point that has been brought up while your post has only availability as main criticism but I'm focusing too much on similarities?
My post is focused on availability because availability is the reason why Zubat sits in C while Pidgey is in B. It's easy to slap Pidgey on your team and make it work, while for Zubat, you either have to sidetrack for the Friend Ball and wild Golbat, or put up with babying a weak Zubat for half the game. The former is the best option, but it comes at the cost of time that could be spent advancing through the story.

I focused on ALL points, including availability, and I also stated that Pidgey has better availability, but that it also evolves much later when Crobat becomes much more useful during that part of the game.
It's true Pidgeotto evolves late (esp by Johto standards), but you also have to remember that the progression and level curve in these games are weird as hell; Pidgeotto's power is sufficient for most of the game until it evolves, and the only major battles Pidgeot misses out on compared to Crobat is Chuck, Jasmine, and maybe Pryce depending on your levels. Neither Pidgeotto or Crobat have any business taking on Pryce and (especially) Jasmine, and if you first head west after Morty, both of them will probably be relying on Return vs Chuck since Wing Attack comes late for both of them (don't use Gust on Pidgeotto here; it's weaker than neutral Return). Crobat's Fighting resistance does give it the edge here at least, but that's still only one major battle that Crobat fares better in compared to Pidgeotto prior to evolution.

And yes, Zubat doesn't do much against Bugsy. So? Pidgey does not much against Morty. Why should this point be a negative point for Zubat but neutral for Pidgey?
I was referring more to early game performance in general, and it's a negative because Zubat's early game performance is piss-poor. Zubat is Magikarp-level useless up until lv 12 when it learns Bite, and even then Bite's damage output is mediocre against everything not named Gastly. Because of that, catching a wild Golbat with a Friend Ball is the recommended way to go, and that requires a detour.

As for Morty, you won't even have Golbat yet if you go for the Friend Ball route, but if you do raise an early Zubat, Golbat's performance in Ecruteak is questionable. It may can handle the grunt Gastly and Haunter, but Golbat won't be able to handle Gengar. I'm not in a position to do calcs atm, but I seriously doubt Bite can 2HKO Gengar (not sure if it can even 3HKO), while Golbat's momentum is brought to a screeching halt against Gengar's Hypnosis and Shadow Ball barrage. You'd just be sitting there spamming Awakenings until Gengar misses and Golbat can get a Bite in, and that's assuming the AI doesn't just go ahead and kill you off with Shadow Ball. Pidgeotto at least has a Ghost immunity in its favor, and it can break the Hypnosis spam with a few Mud-Slaps.

if the point of this thread is not to put Pokemon that are similar in playthrough value into the same tier, I don't know what is.
The point of these in-game tier lists is to rank the Pokemon based on their efficiency in completing the game in as little time and trouble as possible. Just because two Pokemon may perform similarly in a playthrough doesn't immediately mean they they're both equally efficient. There are a wide variety of things that can influence efficiency, ranging from availability (such as Clefairy/Chansey in RBY) to more minor pros and cons among the individual Pokemon (such as Ralts/Abra in ORAS). This is why comparing Pokemon in these tier lists outside of opportunity costs is generally a bad idea.
 

atsync

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Yes, but it is very much possible to put Pokemon of a similar tier into the same tier. That's the entire point of this thread.

Let's say each Pokemon in the B tier is an 8.0-8.9 and each Pokemon in the C tier is an 7.0-7.9. For the scenario we just witnessed to appear (Pidgey one tier up, Zubat one tier down), both had to be tiered wrong in the first place. Not extremely likely but possible. Since Zubat and Pidgey stayed in their previous tiers for a long time without anybody complaining, it's much more likely that Zubat was a solid 8 (8.5 or 8.4) rather than an 8.0 or 8.1 while Pidgey was a solid 7 (7.5) rather than a 7.9, otherwise we would have noticed this sooner. However, assuming that Pidgey was indeed much better than previously thought, I could see it advance to B. However, for the tier switch to still make sense, Zubat's score would have to be lowered by at least 0.5 as a direct result of Pidgey rising to B tier so that it basically took the spot of Zubat. This is rather unlikely, as both Pokemon are vastly different.

I have no problem seeing Pidgey in the B tier, as I agree that it is basically an inferior Spearow, which is still good. But it makes 0 sense to downgrade Zubat because of Pidgey entering the B tier, as Zubat doesn't suddenly become worse because of this change. So if Zubat really should be in C, why didn't people point it out sooner despite Zubat being one of the more heavily tested Pokemon in this thread? There is a reason why people saw it in B for so long, because its strengths justify it:

Yes, and Golbat evolves much earlier. With bat, you spend 25% more of the main game playing as a final evo (Crobat bst 535) than with Pidgey (Pidgeotto bst 349). So that's not a legitimate argument in favor of Pidgey. Zubat 1, Pidgey 1

Yes it can. However, Pidgey can use Gust against Bugsy, so it has the upper hand there, let's keep it fair. Zubat 2, Pidgey 2

2 points: 1. The difference isn't that great. Crobat's Return does 16-19% on Miltank, Pidgeotto's Return does 22-26% on Miltank (no EV investment applied, yes I already considered Whitney's Normal-type boost). 2. Crobat has a base speed of 130, Pidgeotto has a base speed of 71. So for at least 25% of the game, Crobat will hit many things twice that Pidgeotto hits only once in the same time, thus doing in fact more damage with Return than Pidgeotto in some cases. Zubat 3, Pidgey 3

Exactly! And that circumstance in itself doesn't make Zubat any less equal to Pidgey. The only point one could make is "Why are you using Pidgey when you could use Spearow"? There is no objective answer to this question, only a subjective one: "Because I WANT to use Pidgey over Spearow". There is however an objective answer to "Why are you using Zubat over Spearow?", which is "Confuse Ray, Mean Look, Bite". Zubat 4, Pidgey 4

The highest level in Johto you can catch Pidgeotto at is 17. That's still 19 levels until you get Pidgeot. Golbat on the other hand evolves very soon after being caught in a Friend Ball, and Pidgeotto doesn't really have that much of a better Return than Crobat due to the bad speed stat I mentioned above. Furthermore, Crobat's Fly/Wing Attack is much better than Pidgeotto's and still better than Pidgeot's. Zubat 5, Pidgey 5

That logic is flawed, I could as well say that Crobat doesn't need STAB Return because it can use Flying-Type and Dark-Type Attacks to hit other Pokemon super effective where Pidgeotto would only hit neutral and do just as much damage. Most of the things Crobat can do, Pidgeot can also do? Most of the things Pidgeot can do, Crobat can also do. And you get Crobat for 25% more of the main game. Zubat 6, Pidgey 6

Is that a fact or an assumption?

Fly has 95% accuracy. Give me a break. However, I agree that Pidgeot's (not Pidgeotto's) STAB Return is a true pro. And to be honest, that's the only point where I can clearly see Pidgeot having the upper hand. Zubat 6, Pidgey 7

Crobat is the fastest Mean Look user in the game, which means it's very likely to work on the beasts, even if Crobat's level is a bit lower than 40. Furthermore, Crobat gets Confuse Ray, which is neat thanks to 100% accuracy. Pidgeot has no similar stat-affecting attack except for toxic, which Crobat also gets. Zubat 7, Pidgey 7

Also again, Crobat outclasses or ties with Pidgeot in all stats. The only stat in which this doesn't matter is Attack because Pidgeot hits harder with Return anyway. So the only argument one could make to tier Pidgey higher than Zubat is STAB Return, while ignoring Zubat's advantages (Mean Look, Confuse Ray, Bite) at the same time. I stand by my opinion. Zubat can't be C when Pidgey is B.
The main takeaway I get when reading this post is that you are cherry picking "strengths" and "weaknesses" (many of which are not as important as you are making them out to be, by the way) and assigning "scores" to them to make it seem like it is an undeniable fact that Pidgey and Zubat should be in the same tier. If you have to conjure up fantasy "scoring sytems" that have nothing to do with the way in which this tier list was put to together in the first place to make your argument work, you'll have a hard time getting people to take your arguments seriously.

The point you made about Crobat's Speed compared to Pidgeotto's is a blatant exaggeration. Crobat does indeed have better base Speed, but in practice you'll find that Pidgeotto will be faster than the vast majority of opponents in-game because of level advantage and the Speed boost from the Plain badge, which renders this point moot. Crobat will not "hit many things twice that Pidgeotto hits only once in the same time".

I can't stress enough how much you are blowing the stat differences between Crobat and Pidgeotto (and the "flaw" that Pidgeotto has in evolving later) out of proportion. Pidgeotto is fast enough for in-game, and it is powerful enough in-game with Return (which I believe is stronger than anything that Crobat has even prior to evolution to Pidgeot, and assuming 200+ happiness - not unreasonable considering Pidgey is around from the start). Crobat of course has some advantages such as stronger flying moves, which might matter if Crobat is able to OHKO flying-weak opponents that Pidgeotto is unable to with the same moves (but I get the impression that you have no idea whether this is true or not in practice).

Perhaps this makes them roughly equal in terms of battling, but if you're going to compare Pokemon in this way to justify tiering positions, I would suggest avoiding direct comparisons of stat values, etc., and focusing more on what the Pokemon is capable of doing with the tools it has. It is true that Crobat has higher stats than Pidgeotto, but if Pidgeotto is able to outspeeding and KOing around the same number of opponents in practice regardless of these stat differences, then you can hardly use a comparison of base stat totals to claim that Crobat has some sort of massive advantage over the Pidgey family.

And the stuff Xen says about efficiency is spot on. I think that Pidgey and Zubat can be assessed as essentially equal in terms of battling, with each having a certain advantage over the other, but you simply cannot get around the fact that one is more efficient solely because of availability. I think that having Zubat a tier below Pidgey is justifiable for this reason.
 
My post is focused on availability because availability is the reason why Zubat sits in C while Pidgey is in B.
Again, I never questioned that Zubat has worse availability than Pidgey, it obviously has. The difference is just that I don't think this justifies a tier downgrade, as again, Pidgeotto evolves much later (see next point)

It's true Pidgeotto evolves late (esp by Johto standards), but you also have to remember that the progression and level curve in these games are weird as hell; Pidgeotto's power is sufficient for most of the game until it evolves, and the only major battles Pidgeot misses out on compared to Crobat is Chuck, Jasmine, and maybe Pryce depending on your levels. Neither Pidgeotto or Crobat have any business taking on Pryce and (especially) Jasmine, and if you first head west after Morty, both of them will probably be relying on Return vs Chuck since Wing Attack comes late for both of them (don't use Gust on Pidgeotto here; it's weaker than neutral Return). Crobat's Fighting resistance does give it the edge here at least, but that's still only one major battle that Crobat fares better in compared to Pidgeotto prior to evolution.
According to your own words, that would be 3 gym leaders where you have a fully evolved Pokemon with better stats at your disposal. That's roughly 20-25% percent of the main game (estimated). Why should we downplay this? And even if it's only Chuck that Crobat fares better against than Pidgeotto out of the 3 Gym Leaders, it would still be an argument in favor of Crobat because 1 out of 3 is better than 0 out of 3.

As for Morty, you won't even have Golbat yet if you go for the Friend Ball route,
Except when we are playing Crystal, where Golbat is available in Mt Mortar before Morty. Therefore, one could consider looking at GS Golbat and C Golbat separately, though I don't think C Golbat will make a groundbreaking difference against Morty. Sure, it knows Bite, but you still get it at Lv 15 max when Morty's Pokemon are ~Lv.21.

It may can handle the grunt Gastly and Haunter, but Golbat won't be able to handle Gengar.
Yes, but if a Pokemon can handle 3 out of 4 Pokemon, it's not an argument against it in my opinion. Your point probably was that Pidgeotto does better here. Ok.

The main takeaway I get when reading this post is that you are cherry picking "strengths" and "weaknesses" (many of which are not as important as you are making them out to be, by the way) and assigning "scores" to them to make it seem like it is an undeniable fact that Pidgey and Zubat should be in the same tier.
The thread lists 5 criteria (not one) to determine which Pokemon should be in which tier: Availability, Typing, Stats, Movepool, Major Battles. I'm not cherry picking strengths and weaknesses, I compare all of these aspects. You know what cherry picking is? Choosing one of those aspects and value it above the other 4. And assigning scores is completely reasonable, because whenever you compare 2 things for which is better, you create a score, be it in your head or on paper. That's literally the only way to do it: On which side outweigh the pros the cons and vice versa. You do it as well, only that you came to a different conclusion as you value availability more than I do and therefore see it as a bigger pro for Pidgey and a bigger con for Zubat.

in practice you'll find that Pidgeotto will be faster than the vast majority of opponents in-game because of level advantage and the Speed boost from the Plain badge,
Is that an assumption or a fact? I for one couldn't make that claim because of 2 reasons: First of all, I don't have the teams of all NPCs between Ecruteak City and Cianwood City in my mind, and secondly, "level advantage" is a highly variable parameter. If you play with 3 Pokemon, sure, your Pidgeotto might be overleveled and outspeed things anyway. But if you play with 6 Pokemon, that's not necessarily the case. I play with 6 Pokemon, never exchanged a team member for another and battled every available NPC so far, and I'm just a tad below the average level of Clair's Pokemon. I also don't remember any point in the game where I was clearly overleveled.

if you're going to compare Pokemon in this way to justify tiering positions, I would suggest avoiding direct comparisons of stat values, etc.
No I won't. "Availability, Typing, Stats, Movepool, Major Battles" are tiering criteria. In fact, I would be doing it wrong by definiton of the OP if I didn't compare the 2 in stat values and movepool.

It is true that Crobat has higher stats than Pidgeotto, but if Pidgeotto is able to outspeeding and KOing around the same number of opponents in practice regardless of these stat differences, then you can hardly use a comparison of base stat totals to claim that Crobat has some sort of massive advantage over the Pidgey family.
First of all yes, but do we know for a fact that Pidgeotto is able to outspeed and KO anything Crobat outspeeds and OHKOs? This of course depends on amount of Pokemon on your team and how you level your Pokemon in the first place, so depending on your playstyle, it could often be a lucky guess whether you are faster, whereas Crobat will most definitely be faster even if it is a bit underleveled. Furthermore, I never said that Crobat has a massive advantage of the Pidgey family. What I say is that Pidgey and Zubat both have advantages and disadvantages, but that overall, their performance both justifies a place in the B tier.

This also makes sense when we look at the current history of the thread. Zubat was tested early on and the consensus was B exactly because early Crobat is good. And we all agreed on that for many pages. So what changed? Did someone start another playthrough with Zubat/Golbat and suddenly noticed that it's significantly worse than B tier? No. What happened is that someone compared Zubat with Pidgey, and that Pidgey should be in B tier instead of C tier because it's basically an inferior Spearow, which is a compliment as Spearow is a badass. BUT: That didn't suddenly make Zubat a worse Pokemon. It only made Pidgey a better Pokemon than we previously assumed, which also makes sense because Pidgey wasn't nearly as often mentioned as Zubat in the thread until recently. But instead of doing the logical thing and elevating Pidgey to B only, Zubat got tiered down to C for virtually no reason except "Hey, Pidgey is now B and better than Zubat (which I still disagree with for the plethora of reasons I brought up), therefore Zubat should also go down one rank". Or rather, the chain of events from page 17 onwards was:

- Hiddenfreezer: Hey Pidgey is C while Zubat is B but Pidgey is actually really good, look at the comparison! -> Zubat gets moved to C as a consequence

- IronBullet: Hey, Pidgey is C but it's basically a weaker Spearow, which is A. Shouldn't Pidgey be B then? -> Pidgey gets moved to B

This proves one thing beyond a doubt: OP actually WANTED to put Zubat in the same tier as Pidgey because they are equally good. But he then was forced to put Pidgey in B tier because the argument that it is an inferior Spearow is solid, so yes, Pidgey belongs into the B tier! The logical fallacy was committed in step one, when instead of downgrading Zubat, Pidgey should have been upgraded to B in the first place. If IronBullet would have mentioned that Pidgey belongs to B tier BEFORE Hiddenfreezer pointed out that Pidgey shouldn't be below Zubat, Zubat would still be in B tier! Let's go through it:

- Ironbullet: Hey, Pidgey is C but it's basically a weaker Spearow, which is A. Shouldn't Pidgey be B then? -> Pidgey gets moved to B

- Hiddenfreezer: Hey Pidgey is B while Zubat is also B. Not actually a fan of the latter, but my main criticism "BUT why is Pidgey than the C-Rank while Crobat is B?" doesn't apply anymore. Good.

Zubat is only C because of an unfortunate course of events, not because the arguments actually speak in favor of downgrading it.

I also think it's pointless for me to continue this discussion, as the given likes indicate to me that people decided to go with one side and no matter how many counterpoints I bring up, no matter how often I mention that it's not just about availability but about 4 other criteria, it would only further enforce people to oppose my position, because by now it's not anymore about whether Zubat is B tier but about proving me wrong no matter what.
 
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Merritt

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Is that an assumption or a fact? I for one couldn't make that claim because of 2 reasons: First of all, I don't have the teams of all NPCs between Ecruteak City and Cianwood City in my mind, and secondly, "level advantage" is a highly variable parameter. If you play with 3 Pokemon, sure, your Pidgeotto might be overleveled and outspeed things anyway. But if you play with 6 Pokemon, that's not necessarily the case. I play with 6 Pokemon, never exchanged a team member for another and battled every available NPC so far, and I'm just a tad below the average level of Clair's Pokemon. I also don't remember any point in the game where I was clearly overleveled.
Hey I have no opinion whatsoever on GSC tiering, but I did want to address this, specifically the bit I underlined. It's not in the OP of this thread but as clarified in the in-game tiering policy discussion thread, we run with the assumption that the player is using 3-4 "battling" Pokemon (this is also stated in the beginning of every onsite article).

Beyond that, I'd be happy to describe what Pokemon could realistically outspeed Pidgeotto's base 71 Speed between Ecruteak and Cianwood.

On route 38 the fastest Pokemon is a level 19 Mr Mime with its 90 Base Speed. Schoolboy has 8 Speed DVs. Mr Mime has 42 Speed therefore. Humongous thanks to Crystal_ for providing the trainer DV information in GSC: https://twitter.com/crystal_rby/status/772829226055659520

Pidgeotto, at level 19 with a reasonable 3200 speed stat exp (or 14 stat points) and the average assumption of 7 DVs has 37 speed or 41 after Plain Badge boost, meaning that at equal levels Pidgeotto will be outsped by 1 speed. At level 20 and in the same circumstances Pidgeotto hits 39 speed or 43 after Plain Badge, meaning that Pidgeotto needs to be level 20 to outspeed all of route 38.

On route 39 the fastest Pokemon is a level 17 Raticate which has 40 Speed. Pidgeotto therefore needs to be level 19 to outspeed this route.

In Glitter Lighthouse the fastest Pokemon is a level 20 Fearow. It has 48 Speed. Pidgeotto must be level 23 with the earlier criteria to outspeed it.

On route 40 the fastest Pokemon is a level 21 Staryu. It has 44 Speed. Pidgeotto must be level 21 with the earlier criteria to outspeed it.

On route 41 the fastest Pokemon is a level 20 Starmie. It has 54 Speed. Pidgeotto must be level 26 with the earlier criteria to outspeed it, or level 21 to outspeed everything else on the route.

Chuck's Poliwrath has 51 Speed and his Primeape has 60 Speed. Pidgeotto must be level 25 to outspeed Poliwrath (5 levels lower) and level 30 to outspeed Primeape (3 levels higher, equal to ace).

On the whole these levels aren't unreasonable I don't think, particularly if you discount the random Starmie, but again, I'm not really at the level of familiarity with GSC to offer an opinion about anything.

I'm always happy to crunch raw numbers like I did here though, so if anybody wants me to, let me know!
 
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Xen

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Basically the two points you are stuck on is "Why did Pidgey's promotion bump Zubat down to C?" and "How much should Zubat be punished for the Friend Ball method?" I honestly don't know why you think Pidgey's promotion affected Zubat's tier placement at all; it has absolutely no influence on Zubat's placement. The second point is the real root of the issue. You have to remember that these lists are a group project that require a lot of input and they often take years to complete, so Zubat staying in B for so long but just now getting bumped down to C isn't unusual, just like how Pidgey and Rattata being C but recently being bumped to B isn't exactly unusual.

The general consensus right now is that the Friend Ball method is enough of a time sink/detour that Zubat should be in C as a result. Whether or not that'll be the ultimate decision when this list is finished remains to be seen; for all we know it could end up back in B. There's nothing wrong with voicing your opinion on why Zubat should be B, but you have to get to the root of the issue, and use facts to support your argument instead of accusations and finger-pointing at an entirely unrelated Pokemon.

Also minor correction, but while you can catch Golbat in Mt. Mortar in Crystal, the Grn Apricorn still requires Surf (and Cut) to obtain. Even if you could obtain the Apricorn prior to Morty, you still have to go back to Azalea Town in order to make the ball.
 
Merritt Impressive work!

Xen
I honestly don't know why you think Pidgey's promotion affected Zubat's tier placement at all; it has absolutely no influence on Zubat's placement
I was referring to Hiddenfreezer's comment why Zubat should be B when Pidgey was C, and since Zubat was downgraded shortly after that, I assumed that it played a role in this downgrade. Basically I thought someone suggested that Zubat is not better than Pidgey and OP agreed and downgraded Zubat for that. So yes, Pidgey's promotion did not affect Zubats demotion, but Pidgey being in C could have been the reason why Zubat was demoted when Pidgey being in C was wrong from the very beginning. Again, here is the important bit:

the chain of events from page 17 onwards was:

- Hiddenfreezer: Hey Pidgey is C while Zubat is B but Pidgey is actually really good, look at the comparison! -> Zubat gets moved to C as a consequence

- IronBullet: Hey, Pidgey is C but it's basically a weaker Spearow, which is A. Shouldn't Pidgey be B then? -> Pidgey gets moved to B

This proves one thing beyond a doubt: OP actually WANTED to put Zubat in the same tier as Pidgey because they are equally good. But he then was forced to put Pidgey in B tier because the argument that it is an inferior Spearow is solid, so yes, Pidgey belongs into the B tier! The logical fallacy was committed in step one, when instead of downgrading Zubat, Pidgey should have been upgraded to B in the first place. If IronBullet would have mentioned that Pidgey belongs to B tier BEFORE Hiddenfreezer pointed out that Pidgey shouldn't be below Zubat, Zubat would still be in B tier! Let's go through it:

- Ironbullet: Hey, Pidgey is C but it's basically a weaker Spearow, which is A. Shouldn't Pidgey be B then? -> Pidgey gets moved to B

- Hiddenfreezer: Hey Pidgey is B while Zubat is also B. Not actually a fan of the latter, but my main criticism "BUT why is Pidgey than the C-Rank while Crobat is B?" doesn't apply anymore. Good.
 

Xen

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Skimming over the last page, I can see where the Pidgey/Zubat confusion would set in with the “X sucks, use Y instead” talk, but I think the point Hiddenfreezer was trying to make isn’t so much that Pidgey is better than Zubat combat-wise, but more that Zubat requires a lot of investment to make it work and thus shouldn’t have been in B (and with it came the valid point that Pidgey is very similar and requires less investment, yet was ranked a tier lower).

It does initially give off the impression that Pidgey played a role in Zubat dropping, but it’s more of a case of the placements being mismatched in the first place. Whether or not Zubat should have been dropped to C over availability can still be debated (I personally agree it should be C because the Friend Ball investment is big), but it shouldn’t have been ranked higher than Pidgey in the first place since the very minor quirks it has over Pidgey don’t outweigh the inefficient manner of obtaining Golbat/grinding Zubat.

It does show that comparing availability quirks can help spot some discrepancies in tier placements, but it’s still generally not a good idea to compare Pokémon in terms of combat prowess, unless it’s something like Chikorita where using it comes at an opportunity cost for other Pokémon.
 
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Nitpicking, but why is Pidgeotto bad for Morty? It's got a weakish flying-type STAB (boosted by 26%, so actually not THAT weak) and Mud-Slap, but most importantly, it's immune to ghost-type moves and therefore can just sit there and kill.
 
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Nitpicking, but why is Pidgeotto bad for Morty? It's got a weakish flying-type STAB (boosted by 26%, so actually not THAT weak) and Mud-Slap, but most importantly, it's immune to ghost-type moves and therefore can just sit there and kill.
Curse chipping away 25% of its health every turn might not give it enough time to properly sweep Morty, but that's only if it's used in the first place. Otherwise your point stands.
 
Hey everyone. I happened across here and have some arguments to make. I think there's a lot of merit here.
I think that Abra (tradeless) is overrated and Girafarig is vastly underrated.

  • To start, Girafarig has a 30% encounter rate on Route 43, which dwarfs Tauros's 5% encounter rate on Route 38/39. This huge difference is made especially apparent if you are trying to catch and soft reset a couple of times in order to get decent DVs. This, ALONE, should put the two Normals on equal footing.
  • Girafarig is obtainable right after Goldenrod; perfect timing for when your (~level 30) Graveler, that was solo-ing the entire journey thus far, can begin to find itself weaker with all the water ahead, along with no EQ access for a while. Graveler/Golem solo-ing the first 3 cities is "optimal", so we're assuming that was done.
  • Abra can be annoying to catch; even borderline infuriating if you are aiming for DVs that don't suck. If your Abra is coming from the Gamecorner, then ok that's fine.. However, you STILL need to "baby" the thing until it evolves. Girafarig has no such drawbacks. Girafarig's lowest Wild level is 15, and it comes with Stomp+Confusion dual STAB right off the bat; a very hard-hitter. Thus, you can then feel free to IMMEDIATELY take it to Ecruteak City (@level 15) with literally no training and clean up the whole place while leveling up >7 times in a matter of minutes. Once you are surfing to Cianwood, it's not even fair how easy it is. Stomp+Headbutt+Confusion does just as good a job as Alakazam, if not better. Plus, you'll also have WAY more PP than the Abra line will. Normal+Psy STAB is one of the best in the in-game.
  • More things in it's favor: Kadabra's BST is only 400 to Gira's 450 and when you don't kill something in one hit, you'll probably want/need to heal after. Girafarig also learns Crunch/Thunder/STAB Return and can take advantage of Shadow Ball significantly better than Kadabra. It also gets Earthquake, but you don't even need it on her; I just thought I'd mention it.

TL;DR: Girafarig should replace Un-evolved Abra in S-tier (imo). It's obviously better than Tauros, so it should at the very least be A-tier, but Psychic STAB is way too strong in this game to not give extra points to.
 

Merritt

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Hey everyone. I happened across here and have some arguments to make. I think there's a lot of merit here.
I think that Abra (tradeless) is overrated and Girafarig is vastly underrated.

  • To start, Girafarig has a 30% encounter rate on Route 43, which dwarfs Tauros's 5% encounter rate on Route 38/39. This huge difference is made especially apparent if you are trying to catch and soft reset a couple of times in order to get decent DVs. This, ALONE, should put the two Normals on equal footing.
  • Girafarig is obtainable right after Goldenrod; perfect timing for when your (~level 30) Graveler, that was solo-ing the entire journey thus far, can begin to find itself weaker with all the water ahead, along with no EQ access for a while. Graveler/Golem solo-ing the first 3 cities is "optimal", so we're assuming that was done.
  • Abra can be annoying to catch; even borderline infuriating if you are aiming for DVs that don't suck. If your Abra is coming from the Gamecorner, then ok that's fine.. However, you STILL need to "baby" the thing until it evolves. Girafarig has no such drawbacks. Girafarig's lowest Wild level is 15, and it comes with Stomp+Confusion dual STAB right off the bat; a very hard-hitter. Thus, you can then feel free to IMMEDIATELY take it to Ecruteak City (@level 15) with literally no training and clean up the whole place while leveling up >7 times in a matter of minutes. Once you are surfing to Cianwood, it's not even fair how easy it is. Stomp+Headbutt+Confusion does just as good a job as Alakazam, if not better. Plus, you'll also have WAY more PP than the Abra line will. Normal+Psy STAB is one of the best in the in-game.
  • More things in it's favor: Kadabra's BST is only 400 to Gira's 450 and when you don't kill something in one hit, you'll probably want/need to heal after. Girafarig also learns Crunch/Thunder/STAB Return and can take advantage of Shadow Ball significantly better than Kadabra. It also gets Earthquake, but you don't even need it on her; I just thought I'd mention it.

TL;DR: Girafarig should replace Un-evolved Abra in S-tier (imo). It's obviously better than Tauros, so it should at the very least be A-tier, but Psychic STAB is way too strong in this game to not give extra points to.
Uh wow. I'll try to break this down I suppose.

So encounter rates, while certainly something to keep in mind, aren't exactly a be-all-end-all kinda deal, unless it's something absurd like a 1% rate on top of a 1% rate (Salamence in SM). I could maybe see it if you were looking at a 1% encounter rate (looking at you GS Snubbull) but a 5% isn't worth demoting for - particularly considering how far out of your way you have to go for Girafarig. Personally whenever I play GSC I don't really reset to get all good DVs because it really shouldn't be necessary, so I don't think that going for a second tauros is usually going to be necessary. Perhaps that might not be the case if you get absolutely trash DVs (like if you managed to get a 0 DV one) but I don't think that should really be counted against Tauros.

Saying that Girafarig is available right after Goldenrod is technically true but it's also a massive pain, requiring that you navigate Mt Mortar and go through Mahogany town, catch the damn thing, and then come back without Fly. If you're comparing the time investment, I'd say that finding a Tauros is definitely faster than that since Tauros is right there outside Ecruteak and doesn't require navigating a flash cave.

Abra has immediate access to the crazy amazing elemental punches immediately in Goldenrod. Worth noting is that even as an Abra, it still has higher special attack than Girafarig. Certainly there's a money investment needed but seriously, it's not all that much and it's very much worth it. Obviously access to these moves also lets Abra get to Kadabra very very fast.

Girafarig learns Crunch at level 54. Girafarig's special movepool outside of Crunch and Psychic moves (worth noting that it doesn't learn Psychic outside TM unlike Kadabra) is Thunder. Its physical movepool is ok with STAB normal, shadow ball, and earthquake, but Girafarig is also pretty damn weak. 80/90 offenses are nowhere near impressive, unlike Kadabra's outstanding 120 special attack. Kadabra also is almost definitely outspeeding the opponent with its high speed - in fact the only reason I'd say Girafarig has anything over Kadabra is that it's much bulkier (although I wouldn't call it bulky still).

I certainly don't think Girafarig is better than Abra and calling it "obviously better than Tauros" is a massive leap too. At best I could see it moving up to C, but even there I'd be hesitant. In short Girafarig is a jack of all stats mon who ends up failing to differentiate itself due to a mediocre movepool until an extremely late Crunch and ends up coming at an awkward point of the game.
 
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