Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

Sun is pretty good but now with Snow Warning Aurora Veil Vulpix-Alolan running around the tier, as well Slush Rush users like Sandshrew-Alolan, it has decreased in viability.

EDIT: My opinion:)
 

churine

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Sun is a playstyle that essentially checks most of the tier, the main star Bellsprout doubles to 26 Speed under Sun with a Modest nature, has great coverage that's hard to resist and can 2HKO most of its common answers. The only Pokemon I can think of countering Sun are Hippopotas and Amaura, being cute ways that stop the Sun by changing weather, that prematurely end Bellsprout's sweep, as well as resisting Weather Ball and Sludge Bomb and weakening Solarbeam. All the other counters people say cannot switch in reliably anymore, Mareanie gets 2HKOed by Solarbeam, Skrelp also is 2HKOed after Rocks, Vullaby while immune to Sleep Powder, loses to Sludge Bomb+Acid Downpour, and just dies to Acid Downpour after Rocks, the same happens to Ponyta and Salandit and then Goomy is just bad at anything else. As for checks to Bellsprout, there are some, Scarf Doduo outspeeds and KOs Bellsprout except for the occasional Timid, Vullaby and Ponyta can switch in battle without Rocks and take an Acid Downpour then KO with a STAB move, Protect and Fake Out from Aipom, Mienfoo, and Meowth can help stall out Sun turns to minimize Bellsprout's sweeping potential in the battle.

As for the setters, Vulpix is the premier setter that guarantees Sun for 8 turns and can be hard to switch into due to its powerful Fire Blast and coverage in Energy Ball. A lot of teams carry an emergency second Sun setter nowadays, usually a Diglett with Sunny Day. Not only is it Diglett being Diglett with the ability to trap any possible Sun checks like Ponyta, and more importantly, can give another chance for Bellsprout or the other sun sweepers to destroy your team. And then after the sweepers and setters, you still have a some more Pokemon to deal with, which are there to counter the common sun answers.

I think I need more time to formulate an actual opinion on Sun but I feel like Sun has got a lot more annoying to fight compared to last gen. With the introduction of Z-moves, common answers to Sun such as Ponyta and Vullaby have become a lot less reliable. Players running secondary Sun setters and sweepers also make it more annoying to fight. Sun restricting teambuilding is general knowledge at this point but with Sun essentially being a timer-based playstyle, its all about trying to predict what move the Sun player will use. I would definitely wait before deciding on an eventual suspect test if it comes to that case.
 
Sashbra stops any bellsprout/bulbasaur cold. Scarf Doduo outspeeds bellsprout and kills it. Naughty Meowth kills Bellsprout after rocks with Fake Out + Feint. Chespin, while gimmicky is a total sun counter. LO Pawn Sucker Punch + Other prio move kills sprout. There are lots of ways to deal with sun rn.
 
Sashbra stops any bellsprout/bulbasaur cold. Scarf Doduo outspeeds bellsprout and kills it. Naughty Meowth kills Bellsprout after rocks with Fake Out + Feint. Chespin, while gimmicky is a total sun counter. LO Pawn Sucker Punch + Other prio move kills sprout. There are lots of ways to deal with sun rn.
Too bad they run sleep powder, so you can still beat them.
 

Altariel von Sweep

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To stop the sun, I've tried to use climate Pokémon like Hippopotas, which can leave Bellsprout in a very bad spot if Solar Beam is predicted thanks to Sand Stream, and change to something which can stomach it, like Alola Grimer, or Whirlwind it out. Due to the sand, Weather Ball doesn't hit Hippo very hard (it's 7HKO), neither does Sludge Bomb (5HKO max.), and Acid Downpour is 3HKO. Alola Grimer, despite Bellsprout can put it to sleep, its 3HKO from Weather Ball in sun, and resists Sludge Bomb/Solar Beam/Acid Downpour, having two chances of waking up, and removing it with Knock Off + Shadow Sneak. Vulpix-Alola is a frailer Pokémon which can stop the Chlorophyll boost of Bellsprout, and the incoming Solar Beams. It can either set Aurora Veil up, or knock it out with Blizzard, but it should be aware of the Poison STAB.
 
Your team's ability to counter sun is heavily matchup based. Take a look at Levi's huge sun post. Almost every check/counter can be checked by another viable/common Pokemon. You MIGHT have the exact few Pokemon you need to beat Sun. But you might not too. You can only fit so many dedicated sun checks without sacrificing viability outside checking sun. Even if you created a team based around beating sun, it's still not guaranteed by any means, and you sacrifice a lot of your ability to compete against other high level 'standard' teams in the process. So you can either check sun (and still maybe lose) and lose to everything else, or be extremely match up reliant and hope that your opponents don't use some of the less common sun supporters. Honestly I'd rather not leave it down to luck. I realise that all playstyles invoke some level of matchup reliance, but the problem is hugely exasperated by Sun. With other playstyles, assuming your competent and have built your team well, you can play around minor holes and lack of checks. But with Sun you either check it or you lose (there will always be exceptions of course but you get the emphasis).

I know I can be a little vague so I'm going to condense this real quick.

Sun is extremely matchup reliant because of the limited checks you can use and still be viable, with those limited checks not being able to cover everything they need to.

Note I'm not suggestions Sun is outright broken, not yet anyway. I'm just suggesting we should check to see if there are any ways to consistently check sun without sacrificing viability.
 
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Corporal Levi

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I think that it's a good idea to get the Sun suspect out of the way as soon as possible so that the metagame has more time to develop in the appropriate direction; it's pretty clear that a Sun suspect is necessary considering the amount of people who agree that it deserves a closer look, possibly even a ban. I'd just like to respond to these two posts first -
Sun is a playstyle that essentially checks most of the tier, the main star Bellsprout doubles to 26 Speed under Sun with a Modest nature, has great coverage that's hard to resist and can 2HKO most of its common answers. The only Pokemon I can think of countering Sun are Hippopotas and Amaura, being cute ways that stop the Sun by changing weather, that prematurely end Bellsprout's sweep, as well as resisting Weather Ball and Sludge Bomb and weakening Solarbeam. All the other counters people say cannot switch in reliably anymore, Mareanie gets 2HKOed by Solarbeam, Skrelp also is 2HKOed after Rocks, Vullaby while immune to Sleep Powder, loses to Sludge Bomb+Acid Downpour, and just dies to Acid Downpour after Rocks, the same happens to Ponyta and Salandit and then Goomy is just bad at anything else. As for checks to Bellsprout, there are some, Scarf Doduo outspeeds and KOs Bellsprout except for the occasional Timid, Vullaby and Ponyta can switch in battle without Rocks and take an Acid Downpour then KO with a STAB move, Protect and Fake Out from Aipom, Mienfoo, and Meowth can help stall out Sun turns to minimize Bellsprout's sweeping potential in the battle.
Sun as a whole isn't going to have a lot of hard counters, because we're pretty much talking about an entire team. The fact is that Vulpix is the only genuinely reliable Sun setter, and Bellsprout is almost completely reliant on Vulpix's support. When we take into account that Heat Rock Vulpix is on its own average at best, it's clear why you have to take up the entire team just to support this core. Hazard removal and Stealth Rock are both very important to keep Vulpix alive and properly take advantage of Bellsprout's offensive presence; in addition, there are a large number of major threats and cores that win without much trouble against Vulpix-Bellsprout alone, especially if they can come in on Vulpix, which will generally take up the entire team to suitably cover.

We shouldn't compare Sun to specific Pokemon, because of course its lack of checks are going to seem impressive when we compare a single Pokemon to a core that requires a full team to support it. The question here is whether Sun is more difficult to check than other prominent offensive playstyles, such as Shellder offense or Fightspam. In a double Chlorophyll team, a single check like Ponyta can easily be negated with Acid Downpour from Bulbasaur so that Bellsprout sweeps - is this different from Alolan Grimer trapping Abra and Gastly for Bulk Up Timburr, or Corphish knocking off Mienfoo for Tirtouga? Does madoka's sample team have a better matchup versus the metagame than Dundies' sample team?

I realise that all playstyles invoke some level of matchup reliance, but the problem is hugely exasperated by Sun. With other playstyles, assuming your competent and have built your team well, you can play around minor holes and lack of checks. But with Sun you either check it or you lose (there will always be exceptions of course but you get the emphasis).
If someone brings an ORAS team to a SuMo game where their Scraggy checks are Cottonee and Fletchling, chances are they're going to have a rough time. Even if you do bring some decent Scraggy checks, a well-built Scraggy team should still be able to hold its own. One of the basic traits of a solid team is that it shouldn't have any "just lose" matchups against important archetypes. Sun is a genuinely viable playstyle in this metagame, so it makes sense that it should stomp teams that completely fail to prepare for it, and its more prominent negative matchups aren't totally unwinnable.

What we need to consider is if Sun is too restricting to account for in the teambuilding phase compared to other strong team archetypes. Maybe Sun's checks simply aren't as numerous, reliable, or otherwise viable as Fightspam or ShellDig's. The other way to look at it is that Sun has less counterplay. Sun sweepers have a big advantage in this regard in that they don't need to risk their own HP to set up; Vulpix does it for them. Compare this to most other offensive archetypes, where the primary wincon is usually a setup sweeper that actually has to find the opportunity to set up while remaining healthy enough to sweep, even if all of its dedicated checks are dead (or missing). But this also comes at a big disadvantage - Sun is on a timer. With enough smart switches, you can stall out Sun and gain back momentum against a slow Bellsprout without access to its potent Solar Beam or Weather Ball, possibly removing it from the match if the Sun setters are fainted, even if all of your Sun checks are dead (or missing).

In this sense, Sun is most comparable to Carvanha offense, especially ORAS, when Carvanha's hard checks like Croagunk and Timburr were rarer and easier to eliminate with Gothita. Bellsprout and Carvanha are just about trivial to set up, but are also on a timer, be it Sun turns or Life Orb recoil. They also have a great deal of trouble setting up boosts other than Speed (Carvanha can't at all), and as a result are at a level of damage where they can 2HKO everything except for a select few hard checks, but often fail to OHKO Eviolite-holding Pokemon that they do not hit super effectively. There are other major factors to consider, of course, such as Carvanha being able to come in on revenge-kills and slow VoltTurns with much less hassle throughout the match, and Bellsprout not being OHKOed by almost the entire metagame. Perhaps these factors are skewed enough in Bellsprout's favour that we decide that Sun is broken relative to a balanced setup-less strategy in Carvanha; my point is that just because we don't deal with Sun in the same way as we deal with Zigzagoon or Shellder doesn't mean it lacks counterplay entirely.
 

Berks

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I'd like to make a request to whoever has time to go over the Gen 1 transfers and list any other new moves we got? Because this one is very interesting:

COUNTER ABRA

Abra was just barely beginning to drop in viability when it received this blessing of a move. With access to Counter, Abra is no longer at the mercy of its biggest checks, Alolan Grimer and Munchlax. Quite frankly, Counter makes Abra phenomenal! Its Focus Sash set can now cover every single physical attacker in the tier (bar Shellder, Aipom, and Beat Up Diglett) in one single move. This opens Abra's Focus Sash set to greater move variability by allowing it to take on Dark-type Pokémon (outside of the uncommon Houndour) without Hidden Power Fighting; for example, because it no longer requires Hidden Power Fighting to deal with Pawniard, Abra can elect to run another coverage move such as Hidden Power Ground or Energy Ball or it can elect to run a support move such as Taunt or Thunder Wave! The addition of Counter essentially turns Abra's Focus Sash set from Psychic / Hidden Power Fighting / Coverage / Coverage or Filler into Psychic / Counter / Coverage or Filler / Coverage or Filler, covering a greater number of threats in fewer moves and allowing Abra to really open up holes via revenge KO.

Depending on how popular this set becomes, it will be interesting to see if some physical attackers such as Alolan Grimer, Shell Smash Tirtouga, or Carvanha begin to opt for mixed attacking sets to circumvent Counter! Only time will tell, but I see big things ahead for Counter Abra.
 
I think it's important to note that Abra can't legally run Counter and Hidden Power Fighting on the same set bwcause all gen 1 transfers are guaranteed 3 perfect IVs.
 
I think it's important to note that Abra can't legally run Counter and Hidden Power Fighting on the same set bwcause all gen 1 transfers are guaranteed 3 perfect IVs.
With counter you don't need hp fighting at all fren.
Bar mag and pawn (which you can pp stall sucker worst case) and psychic is still
A) Doing decent chip to mag while not knocking it into juice range which is cool
B) Juice mag is ass Scarf mag already outspeeds. The rare evio magnet pull you just sack if you don't need abra, switch if you do need it

Overall though, it lets it play mindgames with it's "counters" (being stunky/a-grimes/lax) which you have to play around now. And tbh if you are running an hp on abra it should be ground anywho as it 2hkoes pawn, ohkoes mag assuming scarf and does like 40% to grimes
 
Eh, not having HP Fight isn't such a big deal because ohkoing Pawn after a sucker punch is the same
and besides, you shouldn't be fighting magnemite in a 1v1 scenario in the first place (it'll just be a waste of sash)
 
Hey guys, has anyone ever thought about splitting the lc into two separate tiers (such as lc ou and lc uu)? This would give the littlest of the little cup a chance to shine, especially since with 268 mons (not including the recently banned vulpix) the Little Cup has more pokemon than any other metagame. After all, we kind of already have an ubers tier. I hope that this isn't asking too much.
 

Altariel von Sweep

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Hey guys, has anyone ever thought about splitting the lc into two separate tiers (such as lc ou and lc uu)? This would give the littlest of the little cup a chance to shine, especially since with 268 mons (not including the recently banned vulpix) the Little Cup has more pokemon than any other metagame. After all, we kind of already have an ubers tier. I hope that this isn't asking too much.
We did that last Gen, but it ended becoming an almost dead tier, so maybe we won't do it.
 
The drought that took the LC Community for a loop has finally ended. Now we got mons punching each other out of the park. Let's talk fightspam.
Fightspam rn is in my opinion the best playstyle rn due to many reasons.

A) All of the stupid good fighting mons.
Timburr-
Bulk Up is gaining popularity again and for good reason. 18 Attack has 4 switch ins in the whole tier 3 if some wild T-punch varient. This thing can be both a breaker and a set up sweeper and it's an incredible mon rn S ranked for a reason

Mienfoo- Oh my goodness. This thing is tricky on fight spam. Z-move, Scarf, LO, Fast evio, It can be super unpredictable and if it's a bait set you don't expect your fighting answer most times is just gone.

Croagunk- This thing should be A. Nasty Plot right now is incredible. It is SO hard to switch in to poison+fighting coverage along with priority and the ability to set up against about half the viable mons in the tier makes this thing incredible.

Scraggy- Prankster nerf man. DD Scrags midgame is fantastic for obvious reasons. Dual Fight stab or Zen Headbutt, along with knock of course, are all super solid options. Shed Skin and Moxie are scary as well As shed skin has the potential to set up on mons like bulky star, chou, and ferro without worrying about status, whereas moxie after DD allows it a free +2. If you have chipped their counter down and there are no scarfers left, scrag just wins.

B) Fighting counters/"checks"
Ok let's talk about fighting answers. Quick run down on the viable mons that do ok against fighting mons or mons that are super common or solid right now.
Counters
Snubbull- The best overall fighting counter given it does more than just counter fighting mons *cough spritzee cough* It has a really nice attack stat along with solid coverage like EQ, Fire punch, Play Rough, T-wave, And of course the infamous thief after being knocked off. Great overall mon right now. Standard scarf foo is only doing around 28% to juice and timb is the same with ice punch so this is the best answer we have right now.
Spritzee- The second you send this thing in you lose any and all momentum you may have had. You're forced more often than not to wish spam which is ok. But foongus is AMAZING rn and it just walls spritz completely. That and the third member of the band here NP Gunk if juice has not been used, gets a free switch in and nice sludge wave damage at the VERY least. It serves its role however other mons commonly used on fight spam just wall it completely.
Mareanie- No one uses this thing. It is an incredible fighting counter right now having regenerator along with toxic spikes, haze, recover, as well as the spammable scald. Mareanie is underrated I feel however it has the same problem as snubbull does with fight spam unfortunately which renders it useless to counter or MUCH harder to counter.
Koffing-Honestly as funny as it sounds. This thing is really nice right now. This thing walls so many common mons right now, from diglett to onix to fighting mons along with all grass mons with its rest talk set. People really sleep on this man right now.

Checks
Doduo- Doduo is really nice rn for obvious reason, nothing in the tier switches in. Gives you a free kill bar WA onix which personally I love on fight spam anywho. However Doduo does revenge and threaten a KO if there is no kabuto or onix on their team and even then jump kick does respectable damage.
Abra- Obvious. Counter with magic guard right now is incredible. Psychic threatens KOes like crazy.

"Checks"
Vullaby- Bulky is ok, but doesn't KO back, offensive KOes however it is slower bar scarf and doesn't take 2 hits. Along with rocks forcing it to roost so much it's hard to keep this thing up to 1v1 a fighting mon and even then that's 1 of the 2/3.
Foongus- Gets knocked. Then takes 40% from foo HJK. Gets 2hkoed by knock+ice punch timb. Gunk sets up on it as does shed skin scrag which I LOVE rn with zen headbutt anyways.
Cottonee- Cottonee defensively is just shit this gen. Offensive is 3hkoed by HJK Foo, threatened by Gunk, and 2hkoed by timb while not ohkoing it.
Croagunk- Cool. Takes 3 hits. However if it gets knocked you're not great, however theif is an underrated set anyways. Best answer of the ones down here overall imo.

Overall there are some good answers, however this is why it's a ridiculously good playstyles

C) DIGLETT- Gen 7 gave this little boy some cool benefits, groundium-z EQ is a nuke; Just straight up. Does 91% min when revenging Snub, and 48% min to Spritz which may not seem like much, but without evio it's 66% min and spritz is often forced to spam wish tect until it gets high enough. That and there is foongus which is a spritz counter and one of the best mons in the tier rn. Even LO dig is still doing 70% min to Snubbull along with 40% average to Spritz assuming evio is still intact. And there goes their fighting counter if they're below 50% or got knocked.
Calcs
236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 196 Def Snubbull: 16-19 (69.5 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Diglett Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 36 HP / 196 Def Snubbull: 21-25 (91.3 - 108.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
236 Atk Diglett Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 13-16 (48.1 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Earthquake vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 9-13 (33.3 - 48.1%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
236 Atk Diglett Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Spritzee: 18-22 (66.6 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Earthquake vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Spritzee: 13-17 (48.1 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


D) Potential- Z-Moves are new to pokemon, well not new now, but nonetheless these things give fight spam an ABSURD amount of z-potential. Fighting counters and checks are always gonna be the same until more are added. You can easily bait them and KO them if need be. Some examples I've been messing with
-1 236 Atk Mienfoo Acid Downpour (160 BP) vs. 36 HP / 196 Def Snubbull: 20-24 (86.9 - 104.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
236 Atk Mienfoo Acid Downpour (160 BP) vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 18-22 (66.6 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Same Damage for Ada Timb.
156 Atk Scraggy All-Out Pummeling (195 BP) vs. 36 HP / 196 Def Snubbull: 12-14 (52.1 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Of course none of this is including mons like Grimer-A which counters abra which personally I like clear smog if you aren't Pawniard weak, which naturally Dual/Triple Fighting teams will not be. Also a favorite of mine right now is Weak Armor onix or kabuto on fighting spam to just counter birds. Kabuto also spreads knock offs and both sets up and gets rid of hazards while onix gives taunt or fazing support along with rocks. The last mon (assuming only double fighting core) can honestly be anything. I personally like a mon like foongus as it is the best chinchou counter right now and offensive waters such as staryu and chinchou give this team issues. You could also go ferro or pump, however foongus is the most reliable and self sustatining member and gets a free sleep or poison to chip mons down for your scarf foo or bulk up timburr.

Overall sun being gone allows fighting mons to prosper much more than they had with bulbasaur and bellsprout taking their moves and 2hkoing easily. Along with this even bird spam needs a scarf doduo for mienfoo as scarf foo outspeeds and ohkoes scarf rufflet after rocks and does around 60% to offensive or NP vulla. Fighting spam is incredible as a whole and is the easiest playstyle to play right now. Look at recent tournament matches and see how many dual fighting cores there are in games. You'd be surprised at how many people have been using it and for good reason, it's incredible.
 
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Dewpider @ Waterium Z
Ability: Water Bubble
Level: 5
EVs: 64 Def / 200 SpA / 100 SpD / 144 Spe
Modest Nature
- Surf
- Poison Jab
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Fire] / [Electric] / [Psychic]

Not sure if standard or not, but I wanted to play with Dewpider because Water Bubble is a busted ability, and that combined with the increase in power from Z-Moves, I came up with this set. Mainly used as a nuke on Sticky Web and where it's most viable, this set, while frail, does its job very well. With Surf becoming Hydro Vortex, it becomes 175 BP, and with that being doubled, it becomes the most powerful move in terms of base power with 350. This more than compensates for Dewpider's laughable 40 SpA, doing crazy stuff like killing Chinchou and Spritzee with a bit of prior damage, and even when non Z-moved, Surf still hits pretty hard, 2HKOing basically every relevant non-resist, while denting most resists as well. Dewpider does lack in coverage, so a set like the one above will have to do, and it does decently well in doing its job. Poison Jab is mainly for Morelull and Cottonee, though can be easily replaced with something else to suit your team. Ice Beam lets it hit most Grass types for consistent damage, since most Grass types in the tier are only neutral to Dewpider's secondary STAB, which is why Leech Life isn't on this set. And the last slot shows Dewpider's lack of viable coverage, since you have to rely on Hidden Power for coverage. HP Fire lets it 2HKO Ferroseed if you struggle with bulkier teams, Electric gives you a more consistent way of passing by bulky Waters without having to use your Z-move, and Psychic lets you hit Croagunk which can really help you clean up offense with webs up.

Dewpider really relies on getting free switches as being unable to hold Eviolite due to the Waterium Z, and its bulk despite its evolved form is rather mediocre, so Volt Switch / U-Turn / Baton Pass support is very appreciated. As I had mentioned before, Dewpider can thrive on a Sticky Web team because of its low speed being made up for by the fact that non Flying foes are -1 speed, which helps a lot vs offense. Bulky teams can be a bit of a pickle, since you really want to use your Z-Move on everything not named Mareanie and Ferroseed, But thanks to the power of Hydro Vortex, you can get rid of or at least inflict big damage to a wall that your team struggled against, making winning that much easier. Plus having the right Hidden Power for the match-up can be great, as HP Fire makes sure that Ferroseed can't be their go-to switch-in to Dewpider now, though hard switching into seed is not recommended because of Bullet Seed or T-Wave.

Good teammates are things that can weaken bulky Waters and get rid of Flying types, as both of those are nuisances. Both of those roles can be mixed to fit an Electric type, like Elekid who could form a good core with Dewpider, as Elekid's great coverage makes weakening a larger group of foes that much easier, while also providing Volt Switch and a bunch of speed so Flying types aren't a trouble for your Web team. Speaking of which, a Sticky Web setter like Surskit or even Sewaddle and Spinarak is pretty important. While not forming very good type synergy, Surskit can help in weaking Dewpider's usual switch-ins with its superior coverage, while Spinarak provides Toxic Spikes to cripple bulky mons, while Sewaddle provides.... Magic Coat, which is kinda useful in keeping rocks off your side of the field? Wish support could also be useful to help keep Dewpider around a bit longer in the battle, but with the preferred style of team you use this set with being Web offense, it's not a very viable strategy.

I'm still new to the tier, so feel free to give any criticism you deem worth giving. As a send-off, here's a cool meme I found.
 
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