Metagame np: DOU Stage 0 - Tale as Old as Time | Magearna and Zygarde Quickbanned | Eevium Z Quickbanned

[Haruno]

naw imo. eevee pass is a pretty gimmicky strategy that has multiple glaring flaws. it's easily disrupted by fake out, taunt, and speed control. also, spread attackers such as landorus-t and heatran can deal good damage to eevee even if it's paired with a redirector. of all the things to suspect i think skymin or tapu lele should be the first priorities, not eevee lol.

You realize none of those actually beats eevee pass right. Protect = rip fake out which hint eevee runs
Taunt = beaten by follow me (not to mention rachi runs mental herb on that team)
Speed control = idk what this even does lol.
Spread damage = eevee takes one hit then sets up and bp's

You should've at least mentioned dark type toxic....

 

[nadando]

You realize none of those actually beats eevee pass right. Protect = rip fake out which hint eevee runs
Taunt = beaten by follow me (not to mention rachi runs mental herb on that team)
Speed control = idk what this even does lol.
Spread damage = eevee takes one hit then sets up and bp's

i didn't know mental herb rachi was a thing so that's my bad. however, if the particular team isn't running a mental herb redirector, then you can taunt the redirector turn 1 then double target eevee's slot as it BPs out to an attacker (or if you're running a prankster taunt user, such as thundurus, taunt eevee before it can even BP)

thunder wave cripples eevee or w/e attacker it BPs to, giving you a significantly easier time dealing with it. trick room turns eevee's boosted speed against it, letting strong TR attackers such as hoopa-u and torkoal deal with it (or its BP recipient) much more easily

yeah fake out and spread damage were p crappy examples

 

[bluecooljay14]

What do those numbers mean? The ones such as 1695 and whatever.

Also where do I find VGC statistics and stuff?

 

[Laga]

Alright seeing as the first post about Eevee-passing took a pretty unorganized starting point (no offense, you probably just met it on the ladder and wanted to kill something), I'll go ahead and make a big arse argument as to why this strategy is broken.

Whenever i refer to Eevee-passing (or EV-pass) I will be referring to the Necrozma-recipient team I built, pretty much mathematically/logically, to garner the most success out of as many matchups as possible utilizing EV-pass. Go look at the pastebin before you say EVpass is managable, because pretty much everything you and nadando think stops it, doesn't stop it. Here is the team

It's worth mentioning that I don't consider this team perfect or done, it's just what I've discovered most efficient. Sash Smeargle is a possibility over Hitmontop or Jirachi, but Mental Herb is really nice, as well as Icy Wind to cancel out opposing Twind. Actual typing is also nice.

Roles:
Eevee: it's Eeveepass. Come on. If you don't want the potential cheese you can get out of Endure + PsyTerrain, then use Helping Hand.
Jirachi: main man rachi as redirector. Mental Herb is good cuz taunt, icy wind / iron head is nice against all speed control.
Hitmontop: Eject Button tops is nice for early game strong EQ / rock slide users. Fake Out + Intimi can also be enough to set up. Lead if strong spread.
Necrozma: easily the most consistent recipient of the stat boosts. It's CM cress after 5 years on steroids. HP ground for dark types only.
Scarf Lele: 1) good backup clean mon if you get crit 2) blocks early priority against Eevee 3) blocks fake out later on 4) Necro now oneshots more
CharY: mainly here because opposing weather can fuck up Necro's Moonlight, and 75% healing on +2+2+2+2+2 necro is just so good. Overheat so you can break muk.

"Hey man i could just double target the Necro right?" well go ahead and look at these calcs

252+ Atk Muk Knock Off vs. +2 252 HP / 74+ Def Necrozma: 84-102 (21.1 - 25.6%) yea that's just pathetic
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma: 203-242 (51 - 60.8%) and no one even uses modest
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. +2 252 HP / 74+ Def Necrozma: 186-222 (46.7 - 55.7%) yes i know band isn't used but thats my point
252 SpA Gengar-Mega Shadow Ball vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma: 176-210 (44.2 - 52.7%) oh btw this gets outsped
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma: 176-210 (44.2 - 52.7%) worth mentioning this counts as CM bait
252+ SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Overheat vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma: 225-265 (56.5 - 66.5%) remember that sun lets necro heal 75% and this dies

e: bughouse pointed out to me on PS that these calcs are almost all wrong. All of them except the zard calc deal 75% of what is noted. Why don't u recalc them then Laga? Well kids, that would be because i cbf.

And here are a few replays of this team in action:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankdoublesou-492205930 vs Skiddo (good example of switching around a shit lead matchup)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankdoublesou-493757447 vs Paint
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankdoublesou-493748364 not vs haruno :]
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankdoublesou-494077283 roomtour final vs parkour_lad
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankdoublesou-494221754 this one doesn't really highlight any strengths about the act of EV-passing, but it's funny cuz n1n1 lost to 4 pokemon after "hard-countering" this strategy xd

Now the thing about this team is that it isn't completely braindead. Reminiscent of the legendary Hypnosis + Gravity team that McMeghan broke Doubles with, and also kind of like bunnies, EV-pass is a type of cheese. Gonna go ahead and say fuck you haruno in case you wanna say bunnies isn't cheese, because using mew with Transform is cheese in itself, especially paired with double setup. EV-pass, like the other two, is not "skill-less" cheese, because you have to weigh the possibilities of the first few turns very thoroughly, just like you had to the entire game through when using HypnoGrav. This gives it some sort of merit for staying in the metagame. My argument is that, considering the fact that the only way for the regularly built Doubles team to deal with this dude is a critical hit on a STAB attack either SE or boosted by terrain or weather makes it, in my eyes, completely batshit broken.

The slightest passive trait in your building pattern punishes you ridiculously hard if you face this team, unless you bring an irrational move. Let's take a look at these irrational counters, and why they don't "unbreak" EV-pass:

1) Roar / Whirlwind / Dragon Tail

Let us take a good hard look at the potentially viable users of these moves... Kangaskhan-Mega, Zapdos, Suicune, Salamence(-Mega), Lati@s, Empoleon, Heatran, Musketeers, Chesnaught, Tyranitar, Hydreigon, Pangoro, Crobat... probably more, point still stands.

Bolded Pokemon on the list have way too much 4MSS to take these moves - those that argue against are saying that Zapdos doesn't want TW. Shut up.
Pokemon in Italics get outsped (not relevant with these moves, but still) and OHKOd without Psychic Terrain. Hearan, Empoleon, and bulky Latias get killed regardless. So arguing that Roar, Whirlwind, and D-tail are good Doubles moves is, quite frankly, ridiculous. Suicune having to give up one of Ice Beam / Speed Control slot / Protect / STAB is a ridiculous statement, but i gave it the benefit of the doubt and didn't bold it.

Now... Let's look a bit more fair on these moves. What else are they good for?
- Dealing with DD mence, can be done by Ice moves / Thunder Wave or Trick Room. All those do objectively more than Roar as single moves.
- Dealing with Azumarill, can also be done via Psychic Terrain; Tapu Lele is WAY better for your team than using a Pokemon with Roar and a moveslot.
- idk bothering people behind a substitute? you can just break that with an attack that deals 25% of the Pokemon's health.
- new pop-up: EV-pass
worth mentioning that Dragon Tail might deal a bit of dmg, but it also misses and cant hit azu or sub users.

So, since Roar / Whirlwind fill about 3 and half VERY specific niches each, I believe it's possible to staple the moves as irrational moves in Doubles

2) Toxic

Now, we can't do a list of potentially viable users of this move, as everyone gets it. Obviously there will be some with too much 4MSS to use the move, but lets look at the things Toxic can do for you.

- Do absolutely nothing against Hyper Offense
- Kill an Azumarill after it has killed 4 of your 6 Pokemon
- Deal with CM Cresselia, oh wait no one uses that this gen
- Deal with Necrozma, especially EV-pass

That counts as about 1.13 specific niches. Toxic is, without a doubt an irrational move in Doubles, and probably also just bad.

3) Haze

Now comes the good stuff. I'm not going to make paint a picture of how shit of a move Haze is in Doubles, because I respect the move and try myself to make it work. It doesn't get redirected, so it's much better at countering setup strategies (EV-pass obviously included), and it can go through Protect. What's more is, Haze isn't only for targeting enemy setup, it can also be used to refresh Pokemon, who have used moves that lower their own stats, even through their Protect use. This can be a gamewinner for an ally pokemon such as Draco Meteor Latios, Overheat Zard, and one of my personal favourites: Mixed Chicken with Overheat and Superpower. The main problem with Haze is that it just simply has terrible distribution.

The only actual potential viable users of this move are Blastoise, Milotic, Darkrai, and Tapu Fini (e: Volc too!). I guess you could also try it on Zygarde, but how often is that going to be more useful than one of Espeed / DDance / Glare? I'll tell you when! Only if you meet this stupid team I built.

So to conclude, EV-pass should be quickbanned. Sad for me to admit, as I've spent quite some time thinking of the optimal team composition for it, and yet if HypnoGrav deserved a quickban, then this does too. It forces people to either autolose, pray for crits, or resort to irrational Doubles moves with limited viable distribution. EV-pass is set apart from other arguably broken things, since it does this. Sure, you can flat out hard-counter it with one moveslot, but that moveslot will be very idle outside of it. This is unlike things like Salamence or Tapu Lele, as they have counters and checks that can put in tonnes of work against any matchup.

It's quite frankly a stupid concept, and we need to rid ourselves of ir before SPL starts.

e: updated the pastebin to speedcreep Eevee a bit. It now outspeeds Pheromosa post boost (mostly aimed at creeping Deo-A)

 

[FloristtheBudew]

naw imo. eevee pass is a pretty gimmicky strategy that has multiple glaring flaws. it's easily disrupted by fake out, taunt, and speed control. also, spread attackers such as landorus-t and heatran can deal good damage to eevee even if it's paired with a redirector. of all the things to suspect i think skymin or tapu lele should be the first priorities, not eevee lol.

It's better than geo smeargle and that thing still did well. It even gets smeargle to assist it with fake out, follow me and wide guard. More than likely unless you have specific tools for it on the field. It's going to be set up and able to pass it to a teammate.

 

[Bughouse]

just fyi you forgot both the item and the ability on the Muk Knock Off calc. It's actually

252+ Atk Muk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. +2 252 HP / 74+ Def Prism Armor Necrozma: 96-114 (24.1 - 28.6%)

in fact you forgot the Prism Armor on all of your Necrozma defensive calcs. It takes all of those Dark and Ghost hits better than you made it look.

 

[GenOne]

Alright seeing as the first post about Eevee-passing took a pretty unorganized starting point (no offense, you probably just met it on the ladder and wanted to kill something), I'll go ahead and make a big arse argument as to why this strategy is broken.

(etc, etc.)

Laga and Haruno used this against me quite a few times on the ladder and I lost more often than not. Overall, I think this team exemplifies how broken the combination of Evoboost and Necrozma is, and I'm absolutely down for a quickban on Evoboost.

The team isn't entirely unbeatable as I beat Laga's team on two occassions with my hyper offense rain team (thanks to playing the initial turns correctly) but barring carefully-played HO teams I can't see any viable team or strategy shutting down Laga's team consistently enough to call it "not broken." As Laga said, "EV-pass [...] is not "skill-less" cheese, because you have to weigh the possibilities of the first few turns very thoroughly." That said, Laga's team is going to win against most matchups as long as a competent user is using it.

Evoboost should be banned imo, mainly because of the Evoboost + Necro combo, but also because the only teams that are ever going to use Eevee are ones with some sort of gimmicky strategy that isn't competitive or fun to play against. Banning Stored Power Necrozma is also an option, but I think without Eevee it's possible to play around Necro and pressure it before it sets up sufficiently.

 

[Pocket]

Eevee doesn't need to bp to necrozma to be effective...passing the boosts to charizard, volcanion, zygarde, sylveon, or salamence is also pretty much an auto win

 

[Roxachronic]

Alright seeing as the first post about Eevee-passing took a pretty unorganized starting point (no offense, you probably just met it on the ladder and wanted to kill something), I'll go ahead and make a big arse argument as to why this strategy is broken.

Whenever i refer to Eevee-passing (or EV-pass) I will be referring to the Necrozma-recipient team I built, pretty much mathematically/logically, to garner the most success out of as many matchups as possible utilizing EV-pass. Go look at the pastebin before you say EVpass is managable, because pretty much everything you and nadando think stops it, doesn't stop it. Here is the team

It's worth mentioning that I don't consider this team perfect or done, it's just what I've discovered most efficient. Sash Smeargle is a possibility over Hitmontop or Jirachi, but Mental Herb is really nice, as well as Icy Wind to cancel out opposing Twind. Actual typing is also nice.

Roles:
Eevee: it's Eeveepass. Come on. If you don't want the potential cheese you can get out of Endure + PsyTerrain, then use Helping Hand.
Jirachi: main man rachi as redirector. Mental Herb is good cuz taunt, icy wind / iron head is nice against all speed control.
Hitmontop: Eject Button tops is nice for early game strong EQ / rock slide users. Fake Out + Intimi can also be enough to set up. Lead if strong spread.
Necrozma: easily the most consistent recipient of the stat boosts. It's CM cress after 5 years on steroids. HP ground for dark types only.
Scarf Lele: 1) good backup clean mon if you get crit 2) blocks early priority against Eevee 3) blocks fake out later on 4) Necro now oneshots more
CharY: mainly here because opposing weather can fuck up Necro's Moonlight, and 75% healing on +2+2+2+2+2 necro is just so good. Overheat so you can break muk.

"Hey man i could just double target the Necro right?" well go ahead and look at these calcs

252+ Atk Muk Knock Off vs. +2 252 HP / 74+ Def Necrozma: 84-102 (21.1 - 25.6%) yea that's just pathetic
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma: 203-242 (51 - 60.8%) and no one even uses modest
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. +2 252 HP / 74+ Def Necrozma: 186-222 (46.7 - 55.7%) yes i know band isn't used but thats my point
252 SpA Gengar-Mega Shadow Ball vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma: 176-210 (44.2 - 52.7%) oh btw this gets outsped
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma: 176-210 (44.2 - 52.7%) worth mentioning this counts as CM bait
252+ SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Overheat vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma: 225-265 (56.5 - 66.5%) remember that sun lets necro heal 75% and this dies

And here are a few replays of this team in action:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankdoublesou-492205930 vs Skiddo (good example of switching around a shit lead matchup)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankdoublesou-493757447 vs Paint
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankdoublesou-493748364 not vs haruno :]
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankdoublesou-494077283 roomtour final vs parkour_lad
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankdoublesou-494221754 this one doesn't really highlight any strengths about the act of EV-passing, but it's funny cuz n1n1 lost to 4 pokemon after "hard-countering" this strategy xd

Now the thing about this team is that it isn't completely braindead. Reminiscent of the legendary Hypnosis + Gravity team that McMeghan broke Doubles with, and also kind of like bunnies, EV-pass is a type of cheese. Gonna go ahead and say fuck you haruno in case you wanna say bunnies isn't cheese, because using mew with Transform is cheese in itself, especially paired with double setup. EV-pass, like the other two, is not "skill-less" cheese, because you have to weigh the possibilities of the first few turns very thoroughly, just like you had to the entire game through when using HypnoGrav. This gives it some sort of merit for staying in the metagame. My argument is that, considering the fact that the only way for the regularly built Doubles team to deal with this dude is a critical hit on a STAB attack either SE or boosted by terrain or weather makes it, in my eyes, completely batshit broken.

The slightest passive trait in your building pattern punishes you ridiculously hard if you face this team, unless you bring an irrational move. Let's take a look at these irrational counters, and why they don't "unbreak" EV-pass:

1) Roar / Whirlwind / Dragon Tail

Let us take a good hard look at the potentially viable users of these moves... Kangaskhan-Mega, Zapdos, Suicune, Salamence(-Mega), Lati@s, Empoleon, Heatran, Musketeers, Chesnaught, Tyranitar, Hydreigon, Pangoro, Crobat... probably more, point still stands.

Bolded Pokemon on the list have way too much 4MSS to take these moves - those that argue against are saying that Zapdos doesn't want TW. Shut up.
Pokemon in Italics get outsped (not relevant with these moves, but still) and OHKOd without Psychic Terrain. Hearan, Empoleon, and bulky Latias get killed regardless. So arguing that Roar, Whirlwind, and D-tail are good Doubles moves is, quite frankly, ridiculous. Suicune having to give up one of Ice Beam / Speed Control slot / Protect / STAB is a ridiculous statement, but i gave it the benefit of the doubt and didn't bold it.

Now... Let's look a bit more fair on these moves. What else are they good for?
- Dealing with DD mence, can be done by Ice moves / Thunder Wave or Trick Room. All those do objectively more than Roar as single moves.
- Dealing with Azumarill, can also be done via Psychic Terrain; Tapu Lele is WAY better for your team than using a Pokemon with Roar and a moveslot.
- idk bothering people behind a substitute? you can just break that with an attack that deals 25% of the Pokemon's health.
- new pop-up: EV-pass
worth mentioning that Dragon Tail might deal a bit of dmg, but it also misses and cant hit azu or sub users.

So, since Roar / Whirlwind fill about 3 and half VERY specific niches each, I believe it's possible to staple the moves as irrational moves in Doubles

2) Toxic

Now, we can't do a list of potentially viable users of this move, as everyone gets it. Obviously there will be some with too much 4MSS to use the move, but lets look at the things Toxic can do for you.

- Do absolutely nothing against Hyper Offense
- Kill an Azumarill after it has killed 4 of your 6 Pokemon
- Deal with CM Cresselia, oh wait no one uses that this gen
- Deal with Necrozma, especially EV-pass

That counts as about 1.13 specific niches. Toxic is, without a doubt an irrational move in Doubles, and probably also just bad.

3) Haze

Now comes the good stuff. I'm not going to make paint a picture of how shit of a move Haze is in Doubles, because I respect the move and try myself to make it work. It doesn't get redirected, so it's much better at countering setup strategies (EV-pass obviously included), and it can go through Protect. What's more is, Haze isn't only for targeting enemy setup, it can also be used to refresh Pokemon, who have used moves that lower their own stats, even through their Protect use. This can be a gamewinner for an ally pokemon such as Draco Meteor Latios, Overheat Zard, and one of my personal favourites: Mixed Chicken with Overheat and Superpower. The main problem with Haze is that it just simply has terrible distribution.

The only actual potential viable users of this move are Blastoise, Milotic, Darkrai, and Tapu Fini (e: Volc too!). I guess you could also try it on Zygarde, but how often is that going to be more useful than one of Espeed / DDance / Glare? I'll tell you when! Only if you meet this stupid team I built.

So to conclude, EV-pass should be quickbanned. Sad for me to admit, as I've spent quite some time thinking of the optimal team composition for it, and yet if HypnoGrav deserved a quickban, then this does too. It forces people to either autolose, pray for crits, or resort to irrational Doubles moves with limited viable distribution. EV-pass is set apart from other arguably broken things, since it does this. Sure, you can flat out hard-counter it with one moveslot, but that moveslot will be very idle outside of it. This is unlike things like Salamence or Tapu Lele, as they have counters and checks that can put in tonnes of work against any matchup.

It's quite frankly a stupid concept, and we need to rid ourselves it of before SPL starts.

e: updated the pastebin to speedcreep Eevee a bit. It now outspeeds Pheromosa post boost (mostly aimed at creeping Deo-A)

You forgot to add multi hitting moves to get over Follow me, I remember using Char Y with Heat Wave against Eeevepass just earlier and it worked fine, though maybe I critted or something, tbh is the main reason I am running CharY because is the best way to kill Jirachi and have a chance at killing Eevee in a turn.

 

[Laga]

You forgot to add multi hitting moves to get over Follow me, I remember using Char Y with Heat Wave against Eeevepass just earlier and it worked fine, though maybe I critted or something, tbh is the main reason I am running CharY because is the best way to kill Jirachi and have a chance at killing Eevee in a turn.

check out the first replay from the post against skiddo, it shows how you'd normally lead against EV-pass, and yet i stalled turns to the point of me setting up anyway. Here's another link for you

Eevee doesn't need to bp to necrozma to be effective...passing the boosts to charizard, volcanion, zygarde, sylveon, or salamence is also pretty much an auto win

This seems to be the most popular stance, and it's the one I'm leaning towards the most as well. Basically, despite these recipients being less efficient against specific matchups, EV-pass would likely still feel broken if we just banned Necrozma.

A few other people, iirc haruno mainly, spoke about Necrozma being the main problem. I really feel quickbanning Eevium Z asap is the way to go about the problem outlined in my last post, but I also understand the stance that Necro by itself is quite the sleeper OP. I don't think the problem is nearly as urgent, but it's worth bringing up in the future, once we've suspected other candidates of brokenness. "Necro by itself" would refer to this set:

Necrozma @ Leftovers / Grassy Seed
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Calm Mind
- Iron Defense
- Moonlight

Don't really have an idea of the precise optimal EVs for this set, but it's basically just still a pokemon that completely fucks over passive enemy teams. Obviously, it's going to have a harder time setting up than EV-pass, but it still feels unbreakable for some otherwise well-built teams.

As said, my stance is that quickbanning Eevium Z will balance out the meta, and I'd rather prioritize suspecting Skymin / Mence / maybe Lele before taking a look at Necro, but it's worth keeping in the back of our heads that Necro by itself is still quite amazing at setting up and either sweeping, or drawing enough pressure for your neighbour slot to punch massive holes in the enemy team.

 

[Noventia]

I found something pretty scary:


Snorlax @ Figy Berry
Ability: Gluttony
- Earthquake
- Crunch
- Body Slam
- Belly Drum

Figy berry and other berries were buffed to heal 50% health when below 25% health, so with gluttony it's a straight buff over sitrus. combine this with:

A pheromosa with speed swap.

Turn one, belly drum with snorlax and speed swap with pheromosa to your snorlax. Now you've got a +6 snorlax with the speed of a pheromosa. The phero is pretty useless now, but switch it out for a flying type/levitate mon and go ham with earthquake.

Snorlax is bulky enough to take out a few mons with this, and it's very hard to counter unless you know it's coming and lead with something that can OHKO/2HKO snorlax.

 

[Roxachronic]

check out the first replay from the post against skiddo, it shows how you'd normally lead against EV-pass, and yet i stalled turns to the point of me setting up anyway. Here's another link for you

This seems to be the most popular stance, and it's the one I'm leaning towards the most as well. Basically, despite these recipients being less efficient against specific matchups, EV-pass would likely still feel broken if we just banned Necrozma.

A few other people, iirc haruno mainly, spoke about Necrozma being the main problem. I really feel quickbanning Eevium Z asap is the way to go about the problem outlined in my last post, but I also understand the stance that Necro by itself is quite the sleeper OP. I don't think the problem is nearly as urgent, but it's worth bringing up in the future, once we've suspected other candidates of brokenness. "Necro by itself" would refer to this set:

Necrozma @ Leftovers / Grassy Seed
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Calm Mind
- Iron Defense
- Moonlight

Don't really have an idea of the precise optimal EVs for this set, but it's basically just still a pokemon that completely fucks over passive enemy teams. Obviously, it's going to have a harder time setting up than EV-pass, but it still feels unbreakable for some otherwise well-built teams.

As said, my stance is that quickbanning Eevium Z will balance out the meta, and I'd rather prioritize suspecting Skymin / Mence / maybe Lele before taking a look at Necro, but it's worth keeping in the back of our heads that Necro by itself is still quite amazing at setting up and either sweeping, or drawing enough pressure for your neighbour slot to punch massive holes in the enemy team.

Dont get me wrong,eeveepassing is stupidly cheap and hard as fuck to try to stop it before setting up because the player just need to get wrong one prediction and is gg, but until it is banned as it should is better to at least have a way to try to stop it.

 

[Big_Danny_Mason]

While there are lots of good new abusers of TR, I do think that people are underestimating the priority nerf's effect on fake out. Tapu lele plus a fire type is a nightmarish matchup for TR.

 

[Test Bot #]

Please quick ban Eevium Z. It's clearly stupid when players can carry three redirectors with guard support and focus sash, and get away with it. Roar, Haze, etc. Yeah, like those are going to work. ppl already figured out how to get around those.

 

[Laga]

ok look I'm not going to withdraw my opinion about wanting Eevium Z quickbanned, but I don't believe anyone has found a way round Haze.

Speaking of Haze, here is a quick example of how to use it! Not many viable users of Haze... Yea, I'd only recommend using Milotic, Volcanion, or Darkrai. Still though, the move can be highly impactful for winning your team the game, even if the opponent didn't bring EV-pass, in which case you auto win if you have a brain.

For those of you who are oldfag die hard SPL followers, you might remember I used Scarf Milotic to great effect in my SPL 6 week 4 game against Zubat. What's lesser known is the fact that I actually ran Haze as a 4th move for lack of a better option, and when I wanted to build around Deo-A + Haze, Milotic popped into my mind as the main option, as it deals quite well with Mence while also providing a large Special Defense stat. The idea is basically that you can spam the living shit out of both Psycho Boost and Superpower with Deoxys, then simply Protect + Haze, and you can, quite literally, rinse and repeat

import

Milotic @ Sitrus Berry / Waterium Z
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 252 HP / 168 SpA / 88 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Haze
- Icy Wind
- Hydro Pump
- Protect

Deoxys-Attack @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 44 Atk / 212 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Psycho Boost
- Superpower
- Knock Off
- Protect

Tapu Lele @ Choice Scarf / Life Orb
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Moonblast
- Dazzling Gleam
- Shadow Ball

It's quite a fun strategy to play around with in the teambuilder, and really doesn't feel like something that holds you back in practice. If you get it off timed correctly, it can give you SO much pressure with Deo-A. Another idea to use this with, which I haven't built around yet, is Lohgock aka Blaziken, preferably mixed with Overheat / Superpower, giving you a similar mechanic to the Deo-A pairing. This might potentially be better alongside a Darkrai, as Darkrai can deal with the pesky Psychic-types. Obviously Darkrai likes having Taunt or another coverage move, but cleansing your own stat drops isn't really gimmicky or inconsistent; it's quite a legitimate strategy!

 

[Qazoo306]

Dragon Dance Zygarde

Zygarde @ Life Orb / Groundium Z / Lum Berry
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Extreme Speed / Glare
- Dragon Dance
- Protect

This is a set that I've seen other people use, and I ended up building a team around it myself. Dragon Dance Zygarde is a monster once it gets started. Few things can comfortably take a hit from Thousand Arrows at +1, and that list is even smaller at +2. This thing's biggest weakness is Wide Guard, but that can be played around with either a teammate or a Z-move to take out the user.

The second slot is for coverage or utility. Extreme Speed is what I personally use. It's good for picking off weakened foes and hitting things if TR gets set up. Glare is a utility option to cripple opposing Ground-types. Another coverage move can be used here, too, but it usually isn't ideal. Most turns you're just using Thousand Arrows, anyway.

It makes a good core with Follow Me Jirachi. It's a lot like Rachi + Mence, and it doesn't use your mega slot. Good teammates for this set are things that can deal good chip damage to the opposing team, KO intimidatore, and beat Wide Guard users. Once the things that can take a boosted TA goes down, there's nothing to stop this monster.

 

[Idyll]

The council has voted on Eevium Z. While there's no real announcement here (there should've been ^^"), we've been pretty vocal on PS! and Discord about this so I don't think there'll be problems. Anyways, the result:

Eevium Z: Unanimous Ban

kamikaze

Eevium Z: Ban

Feels so weird that a pokemon like Eevee became a threat that the council needed to address but it got something extremely powerful this gen. The Z move Extreme Evopass gives immediate massive stat boosts in a manner similar to Belly Drum and Geomancy pass which have been topics of discussion in Doubles OU in the past but have not been restricted as of yet. Because of this, one thing to think about was what exactly sets Evoboost + Baton pass over those two.

1. Belly Drum mainly had one extremely viable user in Azumarill and the move granted no special buffs other than maxing out attack for a pokemon which was very slow and often relied on its base 40 priority move for damage in most cases.
2. Geomancy Pass boosts a pokemons special attack by 2 stages but also couples that with speed and a boost in special defense. This helps the target take hits on special side better as well as not be overly reliant on a weaker priority move. Unlike Belly Drum this move requires 2 turns to setup, one to geomany and one to baton pass.
3. Evo pass is extremely similar to Geopass but adds on +2 boosts to attack and defense as well. The attack boost adds additional options on what could benefit from a pass but the Defense boost is the big deal here because one of the main ways to check Geomany pass was by hitting from the physical end with priority to ignore the speed boosts. Between Parental Bond nerf, Sucker Punch nerf, Gale Wings nerf making Talonflame basically nonexistent, and Psychic Terrain being a very relevant threat, its only made a passing strategy much stronger. Another thing commonly used to check passing was Thundurus packing Prankster Taunt and Thunder Wave, but that pokemon has also suffered multiple nerfs this generation mainly in the vein of Psychic Terrain. Even if a Eevee team had Prankster Taunt, Extreme Evoboost is also unaffected by Taunt. This a special property of Z moves which makes Taunt only a valid check to prevent the other two.

Eevee teams compositions generally consist of fake out, wide guard, and redirection support + 1-2 abusers for eevee to baton pass into. The support seems very basic for doubles teams on paper but its all eevee generally requires to setup and pass. This often forces the opponent to constantly pressure with extremely offensive threats and be extremely careful when getting KO's as an Eevee coming in on a safe switch into anything remotely passive as well as backed by either one of fake out, redirection, or wide guard means its going to be able to take a hit and setup even with its frail stats. Even in VGC 2017 the strategy is having decent success though not winning events, but the abusers we have in Doubles OU are far stronger and tip the scale. In VGC the main pass targets seem to be Tapus while DOU's main abuser is Stored Power Necrozma which immediately hits like a truck, with common secondary abusers being Mega Salamence and Mega Charizard Y. One thing that greatly sets these apart is that all 3 of the mentioned DOU threats have access to reliable recovery moves in Moonlight and Roost while the Tapus do not, so they are perfectly capable of abusing the defense and special defense boosts to stick around for much longer, making them much more difficult to check. Necrozma and Salamence also have the ability to setup more with Calm Mind and Dragon Dance, respectively though mence generally favors mixed offenses as a pass target. The immediate offensive firepower of these threats as well as their lasting survivability make Evopass have an extremely large payout for the limited effort put into setting up.

I wouldnt be too surprised if Geopass may need to addressed in the future, but at the current time the above mentioned nerfs to common checks as well as the much greater versatility of the abusers of the Evo-pass strategy make banning Eevium Z a necessary step in progressing the metagame leading into SPL.

Memoric

Eevium Z: Ban

Extreme Evoboost simply provides dominant yet non-interactive play to the scene, bringing about an unhealthy element to the metagame. It forces players to adapt to a specific situation and prepare for a singular moment in the game for a strategy that also has the notable power to basically shaft any team. It doesn't really matter much on what a player brings as EvoPassing to a slew of powerful threats, including Stored Power Necrozma, can easily overrun any defensive counter. The focus is to stop the set up from ever happening or else it's essentially game; whether it does happen or not doesn't really matter as the EvoPass player still has the initiative by being able to threaten game by simply positioning to the "flowchart", and this initiative gives these kinds of teams an inherent advantage. This takes out the interactivity in Doubles play as the matchup factor is totally taken off, and it simply becomes a matter of "don't let this happen or it's g_g". With Extreme Evoboost, the game simply becomes linear and the state of the metagame is unhealthy, essentially making the game "unfun" o_o

Dawgie

Eeveeium (EZ) - Vote Ban.When first looking at (EZ), it appears that the gameplay created is not similar to those that are generally featured in doubles OU. Games are Repetitive and Linear. I believe situations are analogous to those created in VGC 2016, wherein setting up xerneas, or prevention of it was the only factor which determined results in games. I dont think this is how Doubles (OU) should be played. Doubles OU should be focused more largely on overall positioning and the use of all 6 pokemon, in their various roles well in a game. When 1 pokemon has the capacity to easily redefine every pokemon's role in a set game or game(s), I would argue it is worthy of removal. An additional Concern with EZ, is simply the "autoloss" scenarios that the archetype(s) create. A result of uninteractive game play is that at team preview, between two adequately, equally skilled players, one with the capacity to win 100% on team preview because they dont carry enough for EZ, is unacceptable imo. Eevium Z Creates extrelemy non-interactive gameplay and the counter measures to it tend to comprimise team integrity for the purpose of one strategy. Often times if the Evoboost goes off that can just be the game right there, creating a non-interactive game as stated earlier. It takes away from really playing Doubles and creates something that feels very different entirely, VGC 2016 is a decent comparison with the prevelance of Xerneas. Sure it had a lot of the same counters, but it still remained prevelant for the entire year. Passing to something as bulky as Necrozma makes the game almost unwinnable once it goes off.

Level 51

Ban Eevium Z. As someone who's used Evopass (and GeoPass! so I should know what I'm talking about ;] ) extensively to varying degrees of success, Evopass as a strategy heavily reduces the degree of interactivity in a game to almost zero. In extreme cases, games can boil down to whether the pass can be stopped in one of the first two turns, causing a lot of 50/50s especially if Smeargle is Eevee's partner (Follow Me / Wide Guard). Although Necrozma is by far the best receiver of Evopass, it is in no way the problem; Evopass would be broken even if Necrozma were to be banned. Overall really dumb, -1.618033/10 would ban.

SamVGC

Ban Eevium. Eevium Z Creates extrelemy non-interactive gameplay and the counter measures to it tend to comprimise team integrity for the purpose of one strategy. Often times if the Evoboost goes off that can just be the game right there, creating a non-interactive game as stated earlier. It takes away from really playing Doubles and creates something that feels very different entirely, VGC 2016 is a decent comparison with the prevelance of Xerneas. Sure it had a lot of the same counters, but it still remained prevelant for the entire year. Passing to something as bulky as Necrozma makes the game almost unwinnable once it goes off.

shaian

In the greater history of Doubles OU, the tier has been notably conservative in banning Pokemon and Moves in comparison to other Smogon tiers; only 4 Pokemon have been banned in the history of the tier (Salamence-Mega, Shaymin-Sky, Zygarde 100%, and Magearna), and 2 moves (Swagger and Dark Void). Most recently, the topic of banning Eevium Z has been brought forward, and in many ways this is an unprecedented situation. For one, there is only 1 Pokemon that can make direct use of Eevium Z, and that Pokemon is the non-evolved Eevee, as well, the primary function of Eevium Z is to make use of a basic Baton Pass setup. Conventional wisdom tells us that Baton Pass chains in Doubles OU are not as efficient as they are in singles tiers; Quiver Pass / Geopass teams were few and far between, and though they did have some degree of success, they were never seen as unhealthy. So the question is what unique aspect of Eevium Z was able to break tradition and skew the metagame development in a way that is demonstrably unhealthy?

Eevium Z, and it's attached Z move Extreme Evoboost, are unique in that they are available only to the Pokemon Eeevee, as previously mentioned. The move provides Eevee with a one time +2 (sharp boost) to each of its stats, another unique quality as no other dedicated boosting move does so. The closest comparisons are Ancient Power which has a 10% chance to boost the users stats by +1, and Geomancy / Quiver Dance which boost SpA, SpD, and Spe by +2 for Geomancy and +1 for Quiver Dance. The difference in total stat gains between Extreme Evoboost and comparable alternatives is very noticeable, as no other stat boosting move in the game comes anywhere near the sheer efficiency and value provided. The biggest difference however is that Extreme Evoboost, unlike its alternatives, can not be stopped by Taunt.

Conventional counterplay options for a boosting move, or any setup specific strategy, in the Doubles OU metagame revolves heavily around Taunt and other "tech" options that are both read heavy and also responsive to the interactions between both players. Playstyles that ignore the latter part of that are typically referred to as flow-chart teams, as they are designed to ignore the input of the opposing player and rely on a specific win-condition regardless of what they are facing. By removing the ability to have the initial move stopped by Taunt, Extreme Evoboost creates a flow-chart scenario: Eevee uses Extreme Evoboost as a redirector buys it some space, afterwards Eevee uses Baton Pass towards a recipient. This situation, barring a few very specific conditions is an almost guaranteed outcome that favours the Eevium Z user. The only specific tech options that would counteract this strategy involve "phazers", which are historically exclusive to singles play though they have been seen in Doubles OU before, though they were and are still very niche.

The opportunity cost for utilizing Eevium Z is, however, very high. Having only a single use and a single possible user makes the move very restrictive in the situations it can be brought in, requiring a decent amount of board position by the user before it can be safely used. It also requires the use of an Eevee, a Pokemon that has a very limited movepool (unlike Smeargle), and very, very poor stats due to being a base form Pokemon, essentially playing a 5-on-6 at the start of the game. That being said, the rewards for a properly completed Baton Pass can drastically alter the course of a game, and the primary condition to enable the chain is a simple matter of having a redirector and decent protection against spread-move users.

Overall, it can be said that Eevium Z is an unhealthy presence in the metagame. It would also establish a precedent where one was lacking in the tier. The arguments used to justify banning Eevium Z were drawn primarily from established cases in singles tiers and then reinterpreted in the context of Doubles OU. Arguments for not-banning Eevium Z should revolve around discussions of opportunity cost and teambuilding strain and inefficiencies; arguments that call for the entrenchment of "phazing" in the metagame, though intriguing, require the acceptance of a drastic shift in the nature of the metagame. This is not a particularly defensible position solely as it presume one should be willing to justify skewing a metagame to account for a singular instance. That argument will become justifiable if, or when, phazing tactics become more adopted in the metagame, but as they are demonstrably fringe in the current and historic metagame culture, they become a case of metagame centralization around one predominant threat. This does rely on the interpretation of centralization to be one that does not necessarily rely on the "common" threat analysis, but rather, one that views gameplay at the individual game level and views how a particular instance within a game can become a predicator of something that is unhealthy. In a game in which Eevium Z is present, the presence of the move shifts the resources of one players team to concentrate on a particular moment in the game, whether or not that moment will come is irrelevant to the fact that it requires near constant awareness of the possibility of it happening to avoid being "flow-charted."

To conclude, the judgement given is that Eevium Z is unhealthy and should be banned.

Eevium Z has been unanimously quickbanned from the Doubles OU tier. Tagging The Immortal to get this changed on the SM DOU Ladder.

 

[zferolie]

OK so is Eeveim Z banned, or just the combo with Baton pass? I don't use baton Pass with my Eevee, I find no need, it is perfectly capable of killing on its own with just last resort and Stored power. Granted I only go on VGC and not smogon rules, but I only see a problem with baton pass with it

 

[Tymano]

OK so is Eeveim Z banned, or just the combo with Baton pass? I don't use baton Pass with my Eevee, I find no need, it is perfectly capable of killing on its own with just last resort and Stored power. Granted I only go on VGC and not smogon rules, but I only see a problem with baton pass with it

Just eevium z is banned so we can preserve baton pass, which isn't a problem unless it is with eevium z boosts.

 

[zferolie]

Just eevium z is banned so we can preserve baton pass, which isn't a problem unless it is with eevium z boosts.

Gotcha. I myself just like Eevium on a pure attacking eevee. I have done some massive damage with that cute pokemon thanks to it.

Eevee @ Eevium Z
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 132 Atk / 124 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Last Resort
- Stored Power

I team it up with a FFriend guard Evolite Clefairy and a Tapu Lele for the anti priority. Helps pretty well. Rest of the team is just strong pokemon, Pheromosa, Magnezone, and Marrowak Alolan

No way you can ban the combo of Eevium and Baton pass only??

 

[Laga]

Eevium Z is the banned aspect.

I believe you can use that thing in VGC, but I don't play VGC, so I wouldn't know exactly what is released for that metagame.

The actual item itself, Eevium Z, is the only thing that we banned from Doubles OU with the recent council quickban vote. This means that you cannot use that set in Doubles OU.

 

[zferolie]

Eevium Z is the banned aspect.

I believe you can use that thing in VGC, but I don't play VGC, so I wouldn't know exactly what is released for that metagame.

The actual item itself, Eevium Z, is the only thing that we banned from Doubles OU with the recent council quickban vote. This means that you cannot use that set in Doubles OU.

Yeah its not banned there. It just feels like its the combination of Baton pass and Eevium thats the problem, not just eevium on its own, unless I missed something. And I'm not gonna argue how insane passing that is. I agree its nuts , I myself don't want to do it. Not just because how insane to combo is, but also because if for some reason whoever you pass it to dies, you pretty much lost 2 pokemon at once due to the uselessness of eevee afterwords

 

[Laga]

Yeah its not banned there. It just feels like its the combination of Baton pass and Eevium thats the problem, not just eevium on its own, unless I missed something. And I'm not gonna argue how insane passing that is. I agree its nuts , I myself don't want to do it. Not just because how insane to combo is, but also because if for some reason whoever you pass it to dies, you pretty much lost 2 pokemon at once due to the uselessness of eevee afterwords

The overall Smogon mindset when it comes to controlling tiering outside of usage (bans) is based around the concept of banning the simplest root of the problem in question from a tier, instead of making overly complex combo bans.

It's a matter of which ban is easier to understand and easier to code: "Eevium Z" or the combo of "Eevee + Baton Pass + Eevium Z". This is also why OU bans "Blaziken", and not "Blaziken + Speed Boost". Exceptions are only made when absolutely necessary, e.g. if banning a larger concept might take away too much from the metagame.

Eevee as a solo setup sweeper isn't exactly something Doubles OU will dearly miss.

 

[zferolie]

The overall Smogon mindset when it comes to controlling tiering outside of usage (bans) is based around the concept of banning the simplest root of the problem in question from a tier, instead of making overly complex combo bans.

It's a matter of which ban is easier to understand and easier to code: "Eevium Z" or the combo of "Eevee + Baton Pass + Eevium Z". This is also why OU bans "Blaziken", and not "Blaziken + Speed Boost". Exceptions are only made when absolutely necessary, e.g. if banning a larger concept might take away too much from the metagame.

Eevee as a solo setup sweeper isn't exactly something Doubles OU will dearly miss.

That makes sense. I just enjoy sweeper eevee and will miss not being able to use it outside of VGC. But I understand where you guys are coming from

 

[Idyll]

Just wanna give you guys a heads up:

This thread is also a thread for general metagame discussion and not just for suspects. I'm taking the opportunity to say that, yes! you can actually post replays, some analyses on strategies, replays... or anything as long as it talks about the metagame! This thread and all subsequent variants of it are the metagame threads of the subforum. While it may be easy to mistake this thread to be purely for suspects, this isn't really the case; np threads are supposed to talk about the general stage of the metagame (hence stage # on the titles) and the suspect posts, while being posts that talk about the present meta, are not the only ones you can post here. Honestly, as long as it's about the metagame, you can post anything.

I'll also make this clear too while I'm at it: we can have threads for specific topics too! If one ever feels that they have something good to talk about that wouldn't really fit in the metagame thread or would be better to be a specific topic on their own, feel free to run it for approval to the mods of this subforum (myself, kamikaze, and Level 51). A good example of these kinds of threads would be this.