Announcement np: SM OU Suspect Process, Round 4 - The Robots - Metagrossite BANNED

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I think if you're talking about greninja, you're talking protean. Ash is much more predictable and is usually choice locked and therefore it's exploitable. Protean is a monster that KOs several defensive mons depending on what it's carrying. Notably, it KOs scizor with HP fire - a mon considered the premier metagross wall. I don't think it's unreasonable at all to argue that a meta without greninja is a meta that is also more easily able to handle metagross. And not to derail the thread (I won't post further on the subject), but greninja is likely to be banned for a lot of the same reasons pheromosa was banned.

Metagross isn't the same beast. You know 2 of it's moves right away, you know it's physical, you probably know a third move based on it's partners and you likely know the last with a tiny bit of scouting or observation. If you know metagross' set it can be stopped. Meanwhile, with protean gren I find myself switching into a potential answer in the hopes that gren isn't carrying that particular coverage move. Pheromosa was banned because it had so many options and little risk to using it that you would be forced to pray you get it right - or lose a mon or the game entirely. Metagross is just so much more predictable and I think that's a huge distinction you can make between it and the other S or former S ranked mons in the tier.
 
I think if you're talking about greninja, you're talking protean. Ash is much more predictable and is usually choice locked and therefore it's exploitable. Protean is a monster that KOs several defensive mons depending on what it's carrying. Notably, it KOs scizor with HP fire - a mon considered the premier metagross wall. I don't think it's unreasonable at all to argue that a meta without greninja is a meta that is also more easily able to handle metagross. And not to derail the thread (I won't post further on the subject), but greninja is likely to be banned for a lot of the same reasons pheromosa was banned.

Metagross isn't the same beast. You know 2 of it's moves right away, you know it's physical, you probably know a third move based on it's partners and you likely know the last with a tiny bit of scouting or observation. If you know metagross' set it can be stopped. Meanwhile, with protean gren I find myself switching into a potential answer in the hopes that gren isn't carrying that particular coverage move. Pheromosa was banned because it had so many options and little risk to using it that you would be forced to pray you get it right - or lose a mon or the game entirely. Metagross is just so much more predictable and I think that's a huge distinction you can make between it and the other S or former S ranked mons in the tier.
Stop. Gren is not here. Also, you and your gang have also argued that MegaMeta is okay because Greninja wore it down. PICK ONE. Without Gren, MegaMeta will lose a decent check to it. I don't think you want that.
 
I never made that argument, it's dishonest of you to assert that I did. And even if I did, protean greninja does a lot more than act as an offensive check to metagross that causes it to be a broken mon itself. It's primarily the increased presence of mons that greninja stops for metagross that would make metagross easier to check. Has it never occurred to you that the synergy between these mons is a big reason that metagross seems so overpowering? As mentioned previously they're very common partners. What happens if there is no HP fire greninja removing steels? Metagross runs HP fire? And then what, it's missing ice punch or thunder punch and it gets walled by rocky helmet lando, or whatever?

And of course metagross could get a different partner to check these mons, but there isn't really a partner like protean greninja that is overpowering to the point that it's difficult to stop on that same level. It's absolutely valid that removing the ninja would weaken metagross teams and further limit metagross' options and ease prediction. I think laughing that point off is to make the mistake of thinking of things in a vacuum.

Tldr greninja beats metagross, but it also beats a lot of things that can act as checks to metagross. Think bigger picture.
 
protean greninja does a lot more than act as an offensive check to metagross that caufses it to be a broken mon itself.
I had an entire post dedicated to debunking your line of thought yet again including multiple calculations and explanations why your argument is invalid, but I'll say this, instead:

Mega Metagross is currently the most overcentralizing Pokemon of the metagame, requiring at least two Pokemon to keep it in line if you're on a good day.

Greninja is not an offensive check. Sure it can switch into Bullet Punch, Zen Headbutt, and Ice Punch, but that's only three moves out of the other four it uses: Meteor Mash, which deals 50.5% minimum, Hammer Arm and Thunder Punch, which is a guaranteed OHKO, and even Earthquake deals 57.5% minimum. Then you have to account the obvious Life Orb recoil on Protean Greninja, the most popular set, and then likely Stealth Rock and/or at least a layer of spikes, which is commonplace this meta. This is not the same as Gen V Terrakion vs Gengar, where Gengar could literally switch into three of the four attacking moves Terrakion carried, with the most likely sets (iirc, it's been ages) being Choice Band and Choice Scarf.

Looking at the current set on Mega Metagross, it's guaranteed to carry Meteor Mash and almost certainly Thunder Punch, so that's two moves Greninja can't think about switching into already. The next one is Hammer Arm / Earthquake, two more moves that it doesn't want to switch into. Finally, the last slot is something Greninja can safely switch into, be it of Ice Punch or Zen Headbutt. You want to talk about:

You know 2 of it's moves right away
...which means you are likely assuming that the user is following the moveset given in the analysis. Out of the 4 slots in that moveset, since you want to assume it, Greninja can only switch into one. Remember Terrakion vs Gengar? Gengar could switch into three, making it a good Offensive Check to Terrakion.

In short for the first point, please stop calling Greninja an offensive check if it cannot even fulfill that. It's a Revenge Killer that can pick off a weakened Megagross with little issue, sure, but a Greninja user would NEVER want to switch into that beast (take it from me).

I won't post further on the subject
Bit of a liar, aren't we?

greninja beats metagross, but it also beats a lot of things that can act as checks to metagross. Think bigger picture.
How about you stop derailing the thread with your "Greninja is more broken than Megagross, even though it itself is also broken, therefore keep Megagross" posts, on top of your refusal to respond properly to anybody that debunks it. Your fallacies have been called out, we know you either don't care for Smogon or you are on a thread trying to keep Megagross in the tier for whatever mad reason (either way, it shows a significant amount of ignorance), and there is actual evidence supporting the ban while most of the anti-ban side has had arguments handed to them to use and expand on yet you do absolute jack shit with them. This isn't even a direct post on you, this one goes for just about every anti-ban user here.

tl;dr For the last time (I lost count how many times I've brought this up), if you need to take ANYTHING from this, broken does not check broken; broken should be banned, regardless. This is about Mega Metagross, not Greninja. Keep it on Mega Metagross for the next couple hours this thread will be open.

Get this thing out, can't wait for Greninja.
 
I had an entire post dedicated to debunking your line of thought yet again including multiple calculations and explanations why your argument is invalid, but I'll say this, instead:

Mega Metagross is currently the most overcentralizing Pokemon of the metagame, requiring at least two Pokemon to keep it in line if you're on a good day.

Greninja is not an offensive check. Sure it can switch into Bullet Punch, Zen Headbutt, and Ice Punch, but that's only three moves out of the other four it uses: Meteor Mash, which deals 50.5% minimum, Hammer Arm and Thunder Punch, which is a guaranteed OHKO, and even Earthquake deals 57.5% minimum. Then you have to account the obvious Life Orb recoil on Protean Greninja, the most popular set, and then likely Stealth Rock and/or at least a layer of spikes, which is commonplace this meta. This is not the same as Gen V Terrakion vs Gengar, where Gengar could literally switch into three of the four attacking moves Terrakion carried, with the most likely sets (iirc, it's been ages) being Choice Band and Choice Scarf.

Looking at the current set on Mega Metagross, it's guaranteed to carry Meteor Mash and almost certainly Thunder Punch, so that's two moves Greninja can't think about switching into already. The next one is Hammer Arm / Earthquake, two more moves that it doesn't want to switch into. Finally, the last slot is something Greninja can safely switch into, be it of Ice Punch or Zen Headbutt. You want to talk about:



...which means you are likely assuming that the user is following the moveset given in the analysis. Out of the 4 slots in that moveset, since you want to assume it, Greninja can only switch into one. Remember Terrakion vs Gengar? Gengar could switch into three, making it a good Offensive Check to Terrakion.

In short for the first point, please stop calling Greninja an offensive check if it cannot even fulfill that. It's a Revenge Killer that can pick off a weakened Megagross with little issue, sure, but a Greninja user would NEVER want to switch into that beast (take it from me).



Bit of a liar, aren't we?



How about you stop derailing the thread with your "Greninja is more broken than Megagross, even though it itself is also broken, therefore keep Megagross" posts, on top of your refusal to respond properly to anybody that debunks it. Your fallacies have been called out, we know you either don't care for Smogon or you are on a thread trying to keep Megagross in the tier for whatever mad reason (either way, it shows a significant amount of ignorance), and there is actual evidence supporting the ban while most of the anti-ban side has had arguments handed to them to use and expand on yet you do absolute jack shit with them. This isn't even a direct post on you, this one goes for just about every anti-ban user here.

tl;dr For the last time (I lost count how many times I've brought this up), if you need to take ANYTHING from this, broken does not check broken; broken should be banned, regardless.
I don't think anyone should take much, if anything, from your post. You don't even seem to know what a check is.

A check does not have to safely switch into the mon it is checking.

Fact of the matter is that greninja is an [offensive] check to mega metagross.

Another thing - order of suspecting and potentially banning things is not irrelevant at all. What makes a mon's viability, or lack thereof, are the other mons in the tier. It's all relative to the other mons and metagame trends. Ive read mameyo's posts in the last two pages and there is is no fflaw in his line of thinking. His opponents are just building strawmen.
 
I don't think anyone should take much, if anything, from your post. You don't even seem to know what a check is.

A check does not have to safely switch into the mon it is checking.

Fact of the matter is that greninja is an [offensive] check to mega metagross.

Another thing - order of suspecting and potentially banning things is not irrelevant at all. What makes a mon's viability, or lack thereof, are the other mons in the tier. It's all relative to the other mons and metagame trends. Ive read mameyo's posts in the last two pages and there is is no fflaw in his line of thinking. His opponents are just building strawmen.
His post doesn't detract from the fact that greninja's removal leaves us with one consistent offensive check, which is dugtrio (lol, duggy and greninja, two suspect-worthy mons, but that's beside the point). Also, the fact that you have to bring in your megagross check after losing a teammate is a testament to how little counterplay there is to megagross' wallbreaking potential, since we've already discussed how defensive checks are largely inconsistent at handling megagross.

You can assume mash and zen/tpunch depending on tapus on the megagross team, but that just means you're aware of a near un-wallable terrain-boosted coverage move that can bust through even more megagross "checks". The remaining two slots are still up in the air, and you again have to risk walls getting muscled through just to gain that knowledge, or sack a teammate to get in a revenge killer. That's just hugely in the megagross' player's favor, as they're in a near risk-free scenario where they just click moves and weaken/muscle through switch-ins. Isn't this greatly skewed, little risk - high reward ratio deemed non-competitive?

Dedicating at least two teammates towards megagross to wall it with one or the other depending on its moveset, is reminiscent of the gen 4 garchomp meta where several teammates were dedicated to checking different garchomp sets. Sure, you can cover it, but isn't limiting down the metagame's walls to about five blanket checks used in some combination on all teams, a tad overcentralizing?

Greninja is also not the sole reason for many megagross checks like mew and hippo to see reduced usage to the point of obscurity. General power creep (terrain-boosted attacks, further optimized stats) and metagame trends (premier fast electric having u-turn to pull momentum even on ground mons, omnipresent lando-t having its way with other grounds) aren't going to go away magically and bring these megagross checks back into usage.
 

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I've not really been reading this thread past around page 4 or 5 and just kinda skimmed GH[O]ST's post as opposed to reading it in full, so my apologies if I misinterpreted it entirely, but the logic that a 'mon which is blatantly broken shouldn't be banned because there is something else that you want banned more than it is idiotic on multiple levels. Especially in the case of a Pokemon like Mega Metagross, removing a single offensive check to something is highly unlikely to change the level of brokenness which is associated with a Pokemon (unlike the removal of a highly-splashable defensive check to something, which is inherently going to have a significantly bigger effect due to the way that dealing with the Pokemon in question changes significantly for one or more of the dominant playstyles).

It isn't like the presence of Greninja/Ash Greninja all of a sudden makes Mega Metagross balanced, and for this reason the fact that you (or someone else, for that matter) may not agree with it being suspected before Greninja is not a mandate to say that it shouldn't be banned; sure, the removal of an offensive check has a minor effect on its viability due to the latter (and, by extension, Dark Pulse variants of the former) being able to consistently keep it in check offensively in a way that a lot of other Pokemon simply can't do, but one of the big things with Mega Metagross is not so much that it can't be easily punished offensively (although this is admittedly hard regardless) so much as the fact punishing it on an even remotely consistent basis involves saccing something in the process almost every time or making gameplay decisions which are ultimately stacked in favor of the Metagross player.

The fact of the matter is that, with a Pokemon like Mega Metagross, the key thing which differentiates it from other counterless/near-counterless Pokemon like BW Hydreigon is that, in addition to its offensive counterplay being limited as all shit as-is, it doesn't actually encourage good prediction on the Gross player's end to ensure it is used to full effect due to the fact that fishing for an attack boost with Meteor Mash is just as fine a play as actually predicting what is going to attempt to eat its attack a lot of the time because of the fact that punishing it for doing so is horrendously difficult short of contact-punishing items/abilities due to it's excellent speed tier in conjunction with its uber-level bulk, nuts power+coverage range, and excellent typing both offensively and defensively. The argument that the presence of offensive checks is able to balance out the lack of adequate defensive checks falls apart when you consider that, in the context of Pokemon who's offensive counterplay is limited to the same effect as it is with a Pokemon like Mega Metagross, it assumes that the non-Metagross player plays completely perfectly to navigate around the lack of simplistic counterplay options: something which falls under the prediction fallacy and, as such, holds little--if any--water.
 
His post doesn't detract from the fact that greninja's removal leaves us with one consistent offensive check, which is dugtrio (lol, duggy and greninja, two suspect-worthy mons, but that's beside the point). Also, the fact that you have to bring in your megagross check after losing a teammate is a testament to how little counterplay there is to megagross' wallbreaking potential, since we've already discussed how defensive checks are largely inconsistent at handling megagross.

You can assume mash and zen/tpunch depending on tapus on the megagross team, but that just means you're aware of a near un-wallable terrain-boosted coverage move that can bust through even more megagross "checks". The remaining two slots are still up in the air, and you again have to risk walls getting muscled through just to gain that knowledge, or sack a teammate to get in a revenge killer. That's just hugely in the megagross' player's favor, as they're in a near risk-free scenario where they just click moves and weaken/muscle through switch-ins. Isn't this greatly skewed, little risk - high reward ratio deemed non-competitive?

Dedicating at least two teammates towards megagross to wall it with one or the other depending on its moveset, is reminiscent of the gen 4 garchomp meta where several teammates were dedicated to checking different garchomp sets. Sure, you can cover it, but isn't limiting down the metagame's walls to about five blanket checks used in some combination on all teams, a tad overcentralizing?

Greninja is also not the sole reason for many megagross checks like mew and hippo to see reduced usage to the point of obscurity. General power creep (terrain-boosted attacks, further optimized stats) and metagame trends (premier fast electric having u-turn to pull momentum even on ground mons, omnipresent lando-t having its way with other grounds) aren't going to go away magically and bring these megagross checks back into usage.


Let's talk about offensive and defensive counterplay.

Offense - Metagross will have a bad day against many common mons that are able to get in on it freely.

Greninja (both forms)
(scarf) Hoopa U
Dugtrio
(sand rush/scarf) excadrill
Volcarona
(scarf) Heatran
Tapu Koko
Gengar
Mimikyu
Bisharp
Scarf LandoT

While not all of these mons are true checks, they are able to kill metagross takes a mere rocky helmet damage, rough skin damage, and or entry hazard damage. It's easy for pro-ban users to paint their perfect pictures of metagross being 100% healthy with momentum and the perfect movepool and terrain to break an opposing core, but the reality of the situation is that Metagross will be worn down more often than not due to its ability to punch holes and act as a steel switchin, it will not always have momentum, and it will not always have the right moveset to break opposing teams.


Many defensive threats can stand up to metagross as well.

Skarmory (Walls any non-thunderpunch + electric terrain metagross and even has the chance to kill it)
M Scizor - walls all variants lacking the incredibly rare HP fire
Ferrothong - walls all variants lacking hammer arm
Rotom W - not afraid of any version except zen headbutt
Hippodon (can sponge all of metagross' attacks)
Tangrowth - rocky helmet tangrowth
M-Sabeleye - physically defensive variants avoid the 2hko and burn/foul play
Alolamola
Slowbro
Lando-T - auxiliary switch in to metagross
Defensive volcarona - walls any variant lacking zen headbutt
Defensive mew - eats any metagross attack and retaliates with burn
Mandibuzz - foul play does a shit load if not OHKOs. it can eat an ice/tpunch as well
Porygon2 (evolite) - i admit this is passive AF but it can tank Metagross and hit back with the underrated foul play
Quagsire - Unaware quagsire walls any non-zen headbutt metagross

Metagross will be unable to break a good combination of two of these mons (and of course if the metagross has the wrong set it will have trouble with even one - See ABR's post for some calcs). and using two of these mons is not niche by any stretch, as most can wall huge threats in the metagame.

I save the risk free button clicking wall breaking label for Mega Medicham, not mega metagross

Metagross doesn have the special movepool, unbelievably OP STAB, or relatively high speed tier that gen 4 garchomp did to be comparable to gen 4 garchomp.

I've not really been reading this thread past around page 4 or 5 and just kinda skimmed GH[O]ST's post as opposed to reading it in full, so my apologies if I misinterpreted it entirely, but the logic that a 'mon which is blatantly broken shouldn't be banned because there is something else that you want banned more than it is idiotic on multiple levels. Especially in the case of a Pokemon like Mega Metagross, removing a single offensive check to something is highly unlikely to change the level of brokenness which is associated with a Pokemon (unlike the removal of a highly-splashable defensive check to something, which is inherently going to have a significantly bigger effect due to the way that dealing with the Pokemon in question changes significantly for one or more of the dominant playstyles).

It isn't like the presence of Greninja/Ash Greninja all of a sudden makes Mega Metagross balanced, and for this reason the fact that you (or someone else, for that matter) may not agree with it being suspected before Greninja is not a mandate to say that it shouldn't be banned; sure, the removal of an offensive check has a minor effect on its viability due to the latter (and, by extension, Dark Pulse variants of the former) being able to consistently keep it in check offensively in a way that a lot of other Pokemon simply can't do, but one of the big things with Mega Metagross is not so much that it can't be easily punished offensively (although this is admittedly hard regardless) so much as the fact punishing it on an even remotely consistent basis involves saccing something in the process almost every time or making gameplay decisions which are ultimately stacked in favor of the Metagross player.

The fact of the matter is that, with a Pokemon like Mega Metagross, the key thing which differentiates it from other counterless/near-counterless Pokemon like BW Hydreigon is that, in addition to its offensive counterplay being limited as all shit as-is, it doesn't actually encourage good prediction on the Gross player's end to ensure it is used to full effect due to the fact that fishing for an attack boost with Meteor Mash is just as fine a play as actually predicting what is going to attempt to eat its attack a lot of the time because of the fact that punishing it for doing so is horrendously difficult short of contact-punishing items/abilities due to it's excellent speed tier in conjunction with its uber-level bulk, nuts power+coverage range, and excellent typing both offensively and defensively. The argument that the presence of offensive checks is able to balance out the lack of adequate defensive checks falls apart when you consider that, in the context of Pokemon who's offensive counterplay is limited to the same effect as it is with a Pokemon like Mega Metagross, it assumes that the non-Metagross player plays completely perfectly to navigate around the lack of simplistic counterplay options: something which falls under the prediction fallacy and, as such, holds little--if any--water.
All I said is that order does matter when considering susupecting and banning.

I, and I assume Mameyo, dont think Metagross is actually broken. I'd wager I'd be anti-ban for metagrossite even if greninja were banned

However, it is theoretically possible for Greninja to be the reason why X-mon (say metagross) is balanced at the moment.
 
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All I said is that order does matter when considering susupecting and banning.

I, and I assume Mameyo, dont think Metagross is actually broken. I'd wager I'd be anti-ban for metagrossite even if greninja were banned

However, it is theoretically possible for Greninja to be the reason why X-mon (say metagross) is balanced at the moment.
Literally nobody has been able to explain WHY Greninja MAKES Mega Metagross broken. All y'all say is "it's more broken" or "it's broken and should have been suspected first so this suspect doesn't matter". PROVE how Greninja MAKES Metagross more of a problem

Don't say Spikes; Spikes can be laid plenty easily without Ninja. I don't see what it is that Greninja does that suddenly makes Metagross unhealthy...Like Metagross is pretty absurd on its own; it can pick and choose its checks/counters, and there is no way to see whether you have one to it or not until after you've been hit by it.

The argument you and Mame YO have selected is really, REALLY weak inasmuch as y'all have developed it.
 
Literally nobody has been able to explain WHY Greninja MAKES Mega Metagross broken. All y'all say is "it's more broken" or "it's broken and should have been suspected first so this suspect doesn't matter". PROVE how Greninja MAKES Metagross more of a problem

Don't say Spikes; Spikes can be laid plenty easily without Ninja. I don't see what it is that Greninja does that suddenly makes Metagross unhealthy...Like Metagross is pretty absurd on its own; it can pick and choose its checks/counters, and there is no way to see whether you have one to it or not until after you've been hit by it.

The argument you and Mame YO have selected is really, REALLY weak inasmuch as y'all have developed it.
You don't even know what my argument is.

I never said greninja makes mega metagross broken. I literally said that I would likely still not think metagross is broken even if greninja were gone. All I said that was that it's incorrect to think that timing of suspects doesnt make a difference.
 
Literally nobody has been able to explain WHY Greninja MAKES Mega Metagross broken. All y'all say is "it's more broken" or "it's broken and should have been suspected first so this suspect doesn't matter". PROVE how Greninja MAKES Metagross more of a problem

Don't say Spikes; Spikes can be laid plenty easily without Ninja. I don't see what it is that Greninja does that suddenly makes Metagross unhealthy...Like Metagross is pretty absurd on its own; it can pick and choose its checks/counters, and there is no way to see whether you have one to it or not until after you've been hit by it.

The argument you and Mame YO have selected is really, REALLY weak inasmuch as y'all have developed it.
Well, while I'm not exactly the most versed OU player, I would like to give my two cents on this...

Why Greninja makes MegaMeta unhealthier for the meta, is basically just because typical MMeta Switch ins are inherently weak against Gren, not only considering typing but also stat distribution. Then, having to build taking into account BOTH of them is really hard.

For example, do you guys think that AV Growth would be as good as it is in a meta without Gren? (I personally think not) Then, since we can drop that set for a Physical Defensive one, MMeta could gain another decent check that can also blanket check a lot of other physical threats, without having to tank Gren's Hydro Pumps.

I guess, that was more or less whtat they might be trying to explain, or at least that's how I see it...

I would also like to add... or ask... why some people need to be THAT rude against those others that think different? Why so many condescending people trying to stomp against different ideas?

I know, some ideas might feel kinda delusional and absurd, but that doesn't give us the right of being a disgusting person... I really, would like a little bit more of civism dealing with different points of view, because if we continue being that much aggresive and rude against old and especially new people, I'm sure that this comunity will fall down in like no time...

Oh... btw... even if I tried to clarify those things, I also think that MegaMeta should go. Sadly, I also think that Gren should have been gone a while ago...

See ya guys!
 
Well, while I'm not exactly the most versed OU player, I would like to give my two cents on this...

Why Greninja makes MegaMeta unhealthier for the meta, is basically just because typical MMeta Switch ins are inherently weak against Gren, not only considering typing but also stat distribution. Then, having to build taking into account BOTH of them is really hard.

For example, do you guys think that AV Growth would be as good as it is in a meta without Gren? (I personally think not) Then, since we can drop that set for a Physical Defensive one, MMeta could gain another decent check that can also blanket check a lot of other physical threats, without having to tank Gren's Hydro Pumps.

I guess, that was more or less whtat they might be trying to explain, or at least that's how I see it...

I would also like to add... or ask... why some people need to be THAT rude against those others that think different? Why so many condescending people trying to stomp against different ideas?

I know, some ideas might feel kinda delusional and absurd, but that doesn't give us the right of being a disgusting person... I really, would like a little bit more of civism dealing with different points of view, because if we continue being that much aggresive and rude against old and especially new people, I'm sure that this comunity will fall down in like no time...

Oh... btw... even if I tried to clarify those things, I also think that MegaMeta should go. Sadly, I also think that Gren should have been gone a while ago...

See ya guys!
It gets VERY tiresome, having to essentially say the same thing we said 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, and 10 pages ago. . .

And AV Growth is not ran for Protean ninja (who is undoubtedly the mon in question). . . So, yes, it would absolutely still see use.
 
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It gets VERY tiresome, having to essentially say the same thing we said 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, and 10 pages ago. . .

And AV Growth is not ran for Protean ninja (who is undoubtedly the mon in question). . . So, yes, it would absolutely still see use.
AV Growth will get one less use if one Gren gets the boot (I think both are suspect worthy, and Protean is surely Ban worthy IMO)... sure it can also sponge some other things like Koko Thunderbolts and some weak HP Ice - Ice Beams, but that's something that could be more easily covered than MMeta , increasing the overall viability of the physically defensive set.

Oh, and if it gets tiresome, then stop "teaching". Get your firm position and stop getting annoyed by anyone that doesn't think like you!

U know what is tiresome? Trying to explain things like Descriptive statistics, or Trigonometry, or chemical kinetics to guys with a REALLY bad math base... and that has never gave me the right to be rude to ANY of my students, or any other person.

See ya!
 
It's easy to feel that you covered a topic well when you believe your position to essentially be infallible, despite whether your argument was convincing or not to your opponents. This is a common phenomenon in politics. As someone who has taken a lot of heat in these threads, I second the appeal for civility.

On topic: I believe ghost laid out a pretty solid list of mons that can check megagross, many of whom would do better at that job if players weren't constrained by having to account for megagross' common partner protean Greninja - which I believe most smogon posters believe is next in line for the banhammer regardless of the result of the current suspect.
 
A check does not have to safely switch into the mon it is checking.

Fact of the matter is that greninja is an [offensive] check to mega metagross.

Another thing - order of suspecting and potentially banning things is not irrelevant at all. What makes a mon's viability, or lack thereof, are the other mons in the tier. It's all relative to the other mons and metagame trends. Ive read mameyo's posts in the last two pages and there is is no fflaw in his line of thinking. His opponents are just building strawmen.
Either you're Mame YO himself or you skimmed through my post.

Firstly, you're rude, since you claim people should disregard my post.

Second, if you cannot actually get the definition of a word right yourself, why are you judging me for getting it right?

A check, as most people see it, is a Pokemon that can switch into the majority of an opponent's moveset, still having to watch out for one move, and can threaten it enough to force a switch while still not being completely crippled in the process. I already laid a scenario out to Greninja switching into Meteor Mash, then taking a Bullet Punch, which, combined with Stealth Rock and Life Orb Recoil, would leave it crippled, unable to switch out unless you can defog quickly, and with only enough HP to attack one more time. Out of the four slots, Greninja can only switch into ONE safely. The others leave it destroyed.

Also, strictest sense of the word

Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.
Full Health Mega Metagross uses Zen Headbutt, giving Greninja a free switch. Greninja's Hidden Power Fire won't OHKO it, but OH LOOK! Mega Metagross can OHKO with Earthquake since Protean made Greninja a Fire-Type. Sure Mega Metagross is crippled, but it still beat what you call "a check". So no. Strictest sense of the word, Greninja's not even a check. It's a Revenge Killer (and a good one at that).

Clearly, however, that wasn't your purpose of posting. If anything, it's merely a last ditch effort to comment before the thread is locked (mods, there is no more being gained, plz lock) and voting is up. You have done nothing but argue semantics and attempt to, yet again, derail the thread with talk of Greninja. Just stop. Voting will be done hopefully shortly, let's remove Mega Metagross and THEN we can talk about Greninja.
 
I think it's fair to ask for a lock, but considering you also lashed out not far back in the thread calling me a liar, I think it's fair to remind you that you shouldn't throw stones in a glass house as you've been quite hostile. Step off your high horse, bud. It's a game. We all just want what's best for the game we all enjoy and that alone puts us all on the same team. I think you're contributing heavily to the negative tone that the thread is now taking on.

I don't think further discussion will be productive. /thread
 
AV Growth will get one less use if one Gren gets the boot (I think both are suspect worthy, and Protean is surely Ban worthy IMO)... sure it can also sponge some other things like Koko Thunderbolts and some weak HP Ice - Ice Beams, but that's something that could be more easily covered than MMeta , increasing the overall viability of the physically defensive set.

Oh, and if it gets tiresome, then stop "teaching". Get your firm position and stop getting annoyed by anyone that doesn't think like you!

U know what is tiresome? Trying to explain things like Descriptive statistics, or Trigonometry, or chemical kinetics to guys with a REALLY bad math base... and that has never gave me the right to be rude to ANY of my students, or any other person.

See ya!
If that one gren gets the boot, but that one gren likely won't meet that fate. AV Growth is, and never will be, a counter or even a check to protean ninja. So, instead of doubling back on your statement, accept that the point you were trying to make is null.

It gets tiresome that people come into discussion threads, and don't read the discussion that has been going on for 11 pages. You have to throw in the fact you're a teacher don't you? You also get paid to do so, and if you did outwardly express your aggravation, you'd likely lose your job. But you and I both know, if you could, you absolutely would get annoyed when one of your students sat in your class for months then towards the end, asked you to go over everything you've been talking about since the class began, not because they didn't understand it, but because they just didn't show up to class.

It's not that they don't think like me, there are plenty of people in this thread and on PS that don't think like me, but they at least have the common courtesy to read the things that have been stated over and over again. It's a discussion thread, it would behoove of anyone wanting to get involved to read what has already been stated.

"See Ya!"
 
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If that one gren gets the boot, but that one gren likely won't meet that fate. AV Growth is, and never will be, a counter or even a check to protean ninja. So, instead of doubling back on your statement, accept that the point you were trying to make is null.

It gets tiresome that people come into discussion threads, and don't read the discussion that has been going on for 11 pages. You have to throw in the fact you're a teacher don't you? You also get paid to do so, and if you did outwardly express your aggravation, you'd likely lose your job. But you and I both know, if you could, you absolutely would get annoyed when one of your students sat in your class for months then at the towards the end, asked you to go over everything you've been talking about since the class began, not because they didn't understand it, but because they just didn't show up to class.

It's not that they don't think like me, there are plenty of people in this thread and on PS that don't think like me, but they at least have the common courtesy to read the things that have been stated over and over again. It's a discussion thread, it would behoove of anyone wanting to get involved to read what has already been stated.

"See Ya!"
I'm truly sorry if my comment got a sense of arrogance, I just tried to get a point (stop being dicks with each other even if you feel like the other deserves it) though I probably used a wrong resource/example/phrasing to do it!

So, srry bout that and bout derailing this thread just trying to explain that some people should be less rude than they are...

Have a good day.
 
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