np: SUMO UU Stage 1 - Feels Like We Only Go Backwards

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Terrakion is probably the suspect I have tested the most, because at first I though it sounded overwhelmingly strong on paper, but in practice (with and against it) I never got to see Terrakion performing at the level I was expecting it to see. Undoubtedly it's a top threat and I'm not trying to imply it isn't, but in my opinion there's a drastic difference between being a scary sweeper and being too much for the tier to handle.

The abysmal defensive typing makes it really hard to switch in with Terrakion without relying on slow U-turn or a sac, which really hurts its ability to throw CB boosted moves that aren't even remotely close to be too strong for UU standards. Terrakion's typing also makes sweeping with the SD and dual dance sets difficult. Even if you manage to setup SD for free, you still need to be able to KO the Pokemon in front of you before getting KO'd (calcs with Z moves are fancy, but you require the right one to not lose to Hippo, Slowbro, Clefable (Unaware can play around Z Stone Edge), etc), Scizor and Conkedurr need to be dead (weakened doesn't really work), and there are plenty of faster Pokemon and Choice Scarf users that are able to revenge kill. Rock Polish helps vs most offensive checks, but a Terrakion that isn't at +2 Atk and potentially lacks a boosting item (most people seem to be running Z move dual dance, but personally I think LO is overall better against more offensively oriented teams) isn't particularly scary.

The team I have had most success with is Sub SD Salac Terrakion offense with Magneton support and a bunch of Pokemon that both help Terrakion sweep and force Scizor to get locked into Bullet Punch, and despite making a team so heavily centered around Terrakion, it very rarely is the Pokemon that ends up doing the cleaning due to its major defensive flaws.

I think Terrakion is an incredibly good Pokemon and a fantastic wallbreaker, but I don't think it's broken.
 
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sparrow

kacaw
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Since my initial post, further discussion has been generated surrounding Terrakion. During the beginning of the suspect and through an initially short stint of testing I was convinced Terrakion was broken. Upon review of the salient features of this suspect, as well as my own personal experience both using and facing Terrakion; I've concluded that there is a strong case for unbanning. I would like to apologise for giving an early impression biased towards keeping it BL.

Terrakion certainly is a threat that should not be discredited; but due to the nature of the current metagame it's adequately covered by most teams without having to implement changes to cover it. Its typing really is a let down defensively, as it struggles to find opportunities to set up, and even switch in for that matter.

I personally don't believe that Terrakion being released into the UU tier would be unhealthy.
 
gonna keep this short since i already sent in my vote and idt ive posted in a minute.

idk to me terrakion is kind of comparable to mons like bewear or crawdaunt in that its a really solid wallbreaker but due to the general lack of utility it gives defensively (rock / fighting isn't necessarily awful just not great), it struggles to find opportunities to get itself on the field, even though pivots in uu are not scarce. mainly used the cb set and it was really good at what it did but there are enough switchins that can get in comfortably - sd rockium is a different story, but in a meta where zor is extremely common and pokemon that can rk it are in abundance, i find it generally difficult to even get an sd boost aside from some choice locked mon. its just annoying to get in safely and sometimes its not even worth it because stuff like slowbro / hippo / gliscor is so common anyway, and i woulnt be surprised if metgame developments make things like doublade and defensive nidoqueen relevant.

i actually kinda see terrak as a healthy presence - a suicide lead that doesnt hit like a paper bag, another scarfer that can check +1 mega shark, and another bish check are all things that i see as appreciated by the metagame. overall i think its time to free the bull.
 

Kink

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Hey, short two-liner points meant to echo other sentiments + add a kink perspective.

I see Terrakion as the more offensively-minded, less defensively-reliable Cobalion. Hitting the same speed range with similar Double Dance strategies is what really hit the nail on the head for me, because frankly the same things that stop z-move cobalion pretty much stop z-move terrakion, with the latter being very easily revenged killed by more priority-users due to that worse defensive-typing and less bulk. Like, yes, you can use other sets (I've seen Scarf, Sash, and the occasional LO) and each is effective in what Terrakion is supposed to do given its distribution and role... but I feel all are inferior to the z-move double dance set and again, that set is far from perfect.

Anyway, this is my first unban this generation. I think our incredibly bulky-offensive meta is a perfect fit for Terrakion, at least in terms of our insane smashup-style meta right now.
 
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Sacri'

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Everything regarding Terrakion has been said already. I tested it and as others stated, it was much harder for it to find opportunities to set up/nuke something than I expected. It has an amazing STAB combo, the issue is that its typing is quite awful defensively, its speed is decent but not amazing which is why you need to prepare well to be able to exploit Terrakion's ability to hit very hard with CB/once it's at +2. This'll be my first Unban vote this gen.
 
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Hogg

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Yeah sorry I've been quiet on this one, but everyone else has managed to hit on my own thoughts. Terrakion's a pretty cool addition to the meta, and while it definitely means that some teambuilding adjustments will be required, it doesn't seem overwhelming. It's a good 'mon, and gives us another great Scarfer or a solid wallbreaker, but I have yet to see it do anything particularly unhealthy. I don't see any reason to keep it banned.
 
Out of all the retests, I was the most sure Terrakion would be broken but so far it doesn't seem to be that way. Sure it's fast and hits really hard, but switching it in is extremely difficult thanks to its common weaknesses, and Scizor makes it cry. Everyone else has already touched on its issues better than I could. This is, IMO, its best set.

Terrakion @ Rockium Z / Fightinium Z
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Rock Polish / Substitute

I prefer Rockium Z for a one time reliable Rock type attack that also lets you kill non Clefable. You could also use Fightinium Z if you want to OHKO Hippowdon and Swampert at +2 (I think) with Close Combat. Rock Polish can let you beat frail offensive teams once Scizor's gone; Substitute gives you a safe barrier from which to attack behind.
 
Terrakion is unbanned from UU.
dodmen: Unban
Hikari: Unban
Hogg: Unban
Pearl: Ban
King UU: Unban
Bouff: Unban
Tony: Unban
Sacri': Unban
Aquadext: Unban
pokemon sparrow: Unban
pokemonisfun: Unban
Eyan: Unban

We're taking a break from suspects for a few weeks. As usual, use this thread to discuss current metagame trends, Pokemon and playstyles you've had success with, etc.
 
I feel like conkeldurr is a threat a lot of people are sleeping off right now. Choice band set is imo the best, being able to easily nuke defensive cores with pjab/hammer harm/mach/ice punch. Poison Jab is by far the best coverage option for those Togekiss and Clefable who would like to switch on you, while Ice punch takes care of gliscor and guss. Knock off seems less good, since Latias doesn't appreciate Ice punch, celebi neither ; leaving Conk with slowbro and mew as counters, reuni and cresselia being uncommon right now. These counters suffers from the enormous presence of pursuit trappers that can force them out (Krook, Bisharp or even Absol), turning those into ideal teammates.

Overall I don't feel like it's difficult to help conk breaking through teams, speed control and strong pursuit support often being enough. Besides his wallbreaking capacities, it also has good defensive utility, with a really decent bulk (tanking aero's aa, +2 offensive zor bp, any hit from nape... w/o any bulk invest) and an access to a stupidly powerfull mach, allowing it to prevent the likes of Bisharp, Cobalion, Terrakion, Sharpedo (and the list goes on if you can cheap raikou, offensive zor) to sweep you late game. Overall it seems to be comparable to bewear, but mach in this metagame is for me the reason that makes it better

Currently using conkeldurr in a bulky offense as a early/mid game wallbreaker + eventually late game cleaner. The aim is to power through things that could take on cobalion with conk + absol, then setup a rock polish with coba and win, or either win with conk's mach.
I unfort don't have real good replays, those being from ladder matches w/ me playing 6-0'd by tias team and often full of chokes, but if that helps :
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-567581203 > nice exemple of how latias roll over my team, my switchin being swamp ; fortunatly absol can trap it and my opp forfeits when conk click stab and get a kill
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-567586602 > this one more shows that hammer harm's accuracy can be armfull in some case, but also how cobalion can win and how conk could have do so, unfort it didn't do much this game due to miss

Overall I really had lot of success with band conk recently, weirdly more than with band terrakion, mach again being absolutly huge rn ; at least I feel. I'm not discrediting Terrak tho and I feel like it's a real good cbander, just suggering to give Conk a shot.
(sry bout my trash english)
 

Sacri'

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Hello there, we're already half way through UUPL, many interesting SM games have been played so I felt like talking about some trends that I have noticed.


Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Knock Off/Thunder Wave/Ice Beam/Flamethrower/Encore
- Moonblast
- Soft-Boiled

Clefable remains extremely popular but this set in particular has seen some traction in usage this UUPL. Clefable acts as a very reliable Stealth Rocker that remains able to wall a great amount of threats. Clefable's great movepool allows it to adapt its last move to the team needs. Knock Off is one of my favorite options as it means Defensive Empoleon and Tentacruel can't remove Clefable's rocks because without leftovers recovery they simply can't break it.


Krookodile @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Pursuit
- Stone Edge/Iron Tail/Superpower

This set's popularity is mostly due to Latias's impact on the current metagame. While it can't OHKO Latias if it's holding a Z move, it can still proceed to threaten it by coming in on an expected psychic move as DM can't OHKO without a boost. It also provides a good speed control for many teams, able to threaten very popular threats such as Raikou and Aerodactyl.


Blastoise-Mega @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Mega Launcher
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid/Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Pulse/Hydro Pump
- Rapid Spin
- Dark Pulse
- Aura Sphere

Before UUPL Blastoise was almost never seen, which was mostly due to Sharpedo's and Aerodactyl's impact at that time. While the latter remains the most used mega by far, Sharpedo's usage and sucess has declined a lot these past weeks which can be explained by Clefable's popularity. Blastoise turned out to be a really good Pokemon right now, able to provide a reliable spinner which can greatly threaten a lot of teams. In most cases it can get at least a kill vs offensive teams which is obviously great for a wallbreaker that has an average speed stat.



Wont specify a set for this one as I think each set (Banded/AV/Bulk Up) was used at least once. Despite the fact that most Conkeldurr tend to struggle vs Clef, it's still a very valuable 'mon in very common match ups. It's a fighting type that has access to a valuable priority in Mach Punch which allows it to reliably revenge kill Bisharp while also being able to take on things like Hydreigon and Raikou. It has access to Knock Off and to good coverage options like Ice Punch and Poison jab which makes walling Conkeldurr much more tricky than you'd expect.


Talonflame @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Brave Bird
- Roost/Taunt
- Flare Blitz

Another underrated threat which has seen some usage these past weeks. Many teams tend to lack Flying Resists and when they carry one it usually loses to Flare Blitz. That's why Talonflame works well overall, it deals well with key threats such as Clefable and Scizor. The issue with Talonflame is obviously the support it requires, i'd recommand using it alongisde a spinner that can actually beat common Stealth Rockers, Tentacruel, Blastoise and Starmie are all decent options here.




Venomoth @ Buginium Z
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sleep Powder
- Bug Buzz
- Quiver Dance
- Sludge Bomb

Another anti-meta sweeper it hasn't been used that much so far but it put in a phenomenal work in all the games it was used. Sleep Powder allows it to get at least one Quiver Dance off which is more than enough to threaten many teams greatly. +1 Z move is ridiculously strong, it isn't resisted by anything due to Tintend Lens which is why using it on the right turn is very important to allow Venomoth to do well.


Metagross @ Assault Vest
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
- Pursuit
- Bullet Punch/Ice Punch

Another Pokemon which has a great potential right now. It's one of the very few (if not the only) Pokemon that can trapkill Latias safely no matter what set it runs. This spread outspeeds Modest Primarina but using max HP is also a decent option I think. It's also a great Clefable check which is obviously much appreciated given how popular it is. Metagross's win rate is very high so I'm expecting it to be seen more and more.



Latias (F) @ Dragonium Z/Psychium Z/Electrium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock/Psychic
- Roost/Thunder/Hidden Power [Fire]
- Draco Meteor

Calm Mind Latias has been a dominant threat for a long while now but most seemed to run Soul Dew. Z moves help Latias a lot to lure more or less whatever it wants to beat. Electrium beats Steel types, Psychium smashes Clefable and it acts as a nuke which doesnt require to lose spA, Draconium OHKOs things like Gliscor and Hippodown and hits extremely hard. Latias has been extremely effective in UUPL so far, despite the fact that most teams usually prepare for it, the combination of it's raw power and bulk allow Latias to put work extremely consistently.

UUPL has been very enjoyable so far, it's great to see many players coming up with new sets and I'm expecting it to go just as well for the remaining weeks.
 
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pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
Great content in above post.

The only set I have questions on is Venomoth...why do people run Sleep Powder on it? Or run Sleep Powder in general. It is such a giant gamble...

75% chance to hit and 25% chance to miss
66.6% to have 2-3 turns of sleep and 33.3% chance of 1 turn.

1 turn of sleep is essentially useless since it also costs 1 turn to use Sleep Powder in something.

So it ends up being like a 50/50 on whether its useful! Isn't that far too unreliable?

What part of my analysis on this move is wrong or missing?
 
Great content in above post.

The only set I have questions on is Venomoth...why do people run Sleep Powder on it? Or run Sleep Powder in general. It is such a giant gamble...

75% chance to hit and 25% chance to miss
66.6% to have 2-3 turns of sleep and 33.3% chance of 1 turn.

1 turn of sleep is essentially useless since it also costs 1 turn to use Sleep Powder in something.

So it ends up being like a 50/50 on whether its useful! Isn't that far too unreliable?

What part of my analysis on this move is wrong or missing?
Although I am not very experienced with Venomoth, part of the thinking is that the 2-3 turns to set up a Quiver Dance (or two, depending on if Scarfers are alive) outweighs the risk of getting a first turn wake as Venomoth is frail and without a boost finds it a little difficult to set up on things. Also if something can take a hit and phaze you like Hippo or Empoleon, assuming you have already used the Z-move, Sleep Powder can stop them in their tracks.
 

Punchshroom

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The only set I have questions on is Venomoth...why do people run Sleep Powder on it? Or run Sleep Powder in general. It is such a giant gamble...

75% chance to hit and 25% chance to miss
66.6% to have 2-3 turns of sleep and 33.3% chance of 1 turn.

1 turn of sleep is essentially useless since it also costs 1 turn to use Sleep Powder in something.

So it ends up being like a 50/50 on whether its useful! Isn't that far too unreliable?

What part of my analysis on this move is wrong or missing?
One of the biggest reasons to run Sleep Powder is that it can severely punish an opponent's switch while easing Venomoth's setup in general. You could check Venomoth by immediately going hard into your Scarf Infernape/Terrakion/Krookodile/Latias/Mienshao or whatever, but switching into a Sleep Powder puts you in an extremely bad situation both immediately and in the future should Venomoth attempt a second sweep. There's also the fact that Venomoth needs to immediately try to set up on the sleeping Mon instead of letting it's teammates take advantage of it. In conjunction with the immediate pressure Venomoth already applies, Sleep Powder usually ends up being a safe play for it that covers numerous options while also aiding its teammates.
 
also as the opponent you're not very likely to wanna stay in with ur sleeped mon and try and wake up while u let the venomoth set up. its far too risky for opponent than it is for venomoth user usually

its more effective when u sleep something on the switch bc then ur guaranteed a free setup turn
 
So, after like 3 years or something like that of not playing Pokemon at all (more specifically, stopped right when X/Y came out), finally decide to pikc this shit back up again, and i have learned at least a few things

1.) 3-4 years of not playing kinda takes away any skill I had before

2.) There has been a whole lot of stuff changed, and I still need to unlearn what i know from before (do really like that burn only does 1/16 damage though, makes Flame Orb Conkeldurr a noticeably better set).

3.) Substitue + 3 attack Gengar is awesome and fun to destroy teams with, and i feel quite a few teams can't really handle it that well at all

4.) Necrozma is a fun Stealth Rock setter. Not the best or most viable, i will admit that, But i enjoy using it, especially considering it can still hurt shit even with not much Special Attack EVs, and is pretty damn bulky. This is the set i use (and pretty much giving away what the name of my account is on showdown too)

Necrozma @ Leftovers
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 72 SpA / 184 Spe
Timid Nature
- Moonlight
- Psychic
- Stealth Rock
- Brick Break / Hidden Power Fire

Speed EVs are so Necrozma is faster then Bisharp so you can hit them with Brick Break for like, around 81% on average, and also be able to deal some damage to Mega Absol and Krookodile if you really want/need to. You could also instead use Hidden Power Fire, hit Bisharp for less, but be able to make sure Scizor cannot set-up on you. There's likely other moves that you could put in the last slot to be able to more easily deal with different threats tbh. Also, I use a Timid Nature even with Brick Break because i can't really afford to cut into Necrozma's bulk, and Brick Break will still do enough damage to Bisharp to very much cripple it.

edit: Offensive SD Scizor is also like, super nice and awesome, especially considering that most people on the ladder (yeah yeah, not a super good representation of goodness, i know) expect like, a more defensive set, and just die to like a +2 LO Bullet Punch
 
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Latias needs to be banned or suspected. It has no concrete counters, and it can pick and choose checks depending on what move it has. Looking at the CM variant, sets made to counter it like Scarf Krookodile, fail due to Latias holding Z-crystals to survive Knock Off.
 
Latias needs to be banned or suspected. It has no concrete counters, and it can pick and choose checks depending on what move it has. Looking at the CM variant, sets made to counter it like Scarf Krookodile, fail due to Latias holding Z-crystals to survive Knock Off.
While I'm unlikely going to get involved in any further suspect discussion in general can you give more then just this mon has no counters, this is something that can go with a lot of Pokemon such as Nidoking,Gengar,Hydreigon and yes while Latias offers other stuff over these mon for the reasoning you have there is literally no difference to separate them.

Just saying for some constructive criticism add more substance to a post especially to a suggest Suspect Test.
 
While I'm unlikely going to get involved in any further suspect discussion in general can you give more then just this mon has no counters, this is something that can go with a lot of Pokemon such as Nidoking,Gengar,Hydreigon and yes while Latias offers other stuff over these mon for the reasoning you have there is literally no difference to separate them.

Just saying for some constructive criticism add more substance to a post especially to a suggest Suspect Test.
Looking at Latias, the Calm Mind set alone has a grand total of TWO counters in Unaware Clefable and Metagross. The former is pretty big, as that leads to broken checks broken, which is never a good thing, and I'm not sure if Metagross is viable outside of its niche of checking CM Latias. It can run multiple different and viable Z-moves to pick and choose counters. Unlike Nidoking, Gengar, and Hydreigon, Latias is bulkier than Gengar, faster than Nidoking, and can easily run Z-crystals to survive a Knock Off from Scarf Krookodile and hit back hard with Dragon Pulse (Draco Meteor if Dragonium Z) unlike Hydreigon (don't think Z-crystal Hydreigon is a thing). All this, combined with quite a bit of set variety, including Choice Specs, Scarf, and offensive Utility with Life Orb (I don't think full blown support sets are good in UU) has lead to my opinion that Latias is broken and should be banned.
 

Amane Misa

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Regarding Z-move Latias...
  • Countering Latias is a hard task. The only three viable Pokémon that counter it are Unaware Clefable, Assault Vest Metagross or Bronzong. Magneton helps a lot, weakening Metagross and Bronzong (lacking Earthquake) and after Stealth Rock, Z-Psyshock into Psyshock KOs Unaware Clefable (see the calcs below).
  • Revenge killing Latias is not a piece of cake either. Not only it is fast, bulky and has a good typing, the second most common Dark move, Knock Off, is only 65BP against it (looking at you, Scarf Krookodile) so you you have to play mind games with Pursuit, hoping you win them.
  • Latias is splashable as hell. It provides teams with a wallbreaker, a setup sweeper, a stallbreaker, a Keldeo answer, speed, a revenge killer and a ground immunity - all in one Pokémon slot.
252 SpA Latias Shattered Psyche (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 253-298 (64.2 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Latias Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 102-121 (25.8 - 30.7%) -- 4.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
12% + 64.2% + 25.8% = 102% MIN

+1 252 SpA Latias Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Metagross: 153-181 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 252 SpA Latias Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 138-162 (40.8 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 184-217 (61.1 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 128-152 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Aerodactyl-Mega: 294-346 (97.6 - 114.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Krookodile Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 218-258 (72.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Krookodile Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 134-158 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Krookodile: 379-447 (114.5 - 135%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252 SpA Latias Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 136 SpD Scizor: 275-324 (80.1 - 94.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Maybe it's just me but I am having such a hard time beating it if I don't prepare specifically for it, meaning it restricts teambuilding in a way.

Now, I got a question for you:
Is Latias suspect-worthy?
 
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On Latias

Honestly, I do feel like it's worth at least a suspect test of some sort (personally would not mind if it got banned either, but thats me). The thing that made me really notice this is how that Assault Vest Metagross is being seen and used. I'll be honest: I don't think Assault Vest Metagross is very good at all. It's a specially defensive tank that can for sure handle maybe 6 relevant special attackers (Starmie, Latias, Togekiss, Venomoth, Celebi, Scarf Keldeo). The rest all have ways that are quite viable to 2HKO and tank whatever Metagross tries to hit them with, 2HKO a switching in Metagross, or just breaks right through it while set up (a small amount of prior damage also helps with this for some Pokemon). It's good at dealing with Latias, I will not every deny that. I just feel it's a set that was only recently found out about and even used because of Latias, and were Latias to not be here, it would just be a mediocre set that is outshined by the other things that Metagross can do.

Also, the high usage of Scarf Krookodile was and still pretty much is because of it's ability to outspeed and Pursuit Latias, or at the very least, hit it hard with Knock Off (or have a chance to kill it with Crunch, but then you're running triple Dark and lose the ability to really RK Mega-Aerodactyl nicely and even hit Togekiss like at all). I would also say that Mega Aerodactyl running Pursuit is a sign of Latias warping UU around it ( i know it does deal with things like Gengar, but still, i don't doubt Latias is boosting it's usage), as I think it honestly would prefer something like Aqua Tail Or Even Crunch (you can not run Roost, but that i don't feel that comfortable with) as sure is a product of Latias, or it was used earlier, so not gonna go into it.

As for Latias itself, it's pretty clear that it's one of the things that the tier is revolving around the most. Especially with the more recent use of Z-moves on Calm Mind, this basically allows it to pick which things are actually able to answer to it while making Krookodile not nearly as a reliable answer as a whole due to Knock Off not OHKOing and Latias being able to OHKO it back. This i feel turns Latias into a situation of Hoping that what your main answer to Latias is on your team is not vulnerable to whatever Z-move it is going to use, and if it is, tough shit, it's gonna break it and kill it. This leads to needing to stack multiple check and "counters" to it. Now, this isn't a sign a pokemon is broken. All the big threats in a tier you should have more then one answer or way to deal with it, but Latias does it in a way that i feel is too much and honestly stifling. Also, something else this does is break pretty big holes into teams, which then allows for other Pokemon held back by the Latias answer it just blew up to also more easily pressure and crumble the opposing team because they didn't know what Z-move the opponents Latias was running. I just don't really like battles against Latias users turning into a guessing game of hoping that it doesn't have a specific Z-move that kills the main answer you have to it, and then potentially doing what it wants from there. That doesn't feel healthy or fun at all to deal with to me, and i know others share this feeling as well

hopefully my point is clear: suspect (and hopefully ban) Latias please

edit: as a quick note, i only really went into z-move Calm mind because i think thats the main issue here with Latias. The other sets are strong, and just add to the stifling and overbearing nature of Latias to the tier
 
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pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
FYI, you may not want to focus your energies on suspect posts as I do not think the tier leadership wants suspects before potential drops/rises. You should ask them to double check though. In any case I'd be opposed to a ban, although not necessarily a suspect.

The main reason I'm posting is for clarification on the tiering process:
  • If a Pokemon that is currently UU gets a suspect test (e.g. Latias), will it be a have a council + rotating council test or a public test? The UU tiering process from my understanding only deals with bans in UU beta and their reintroductions in UU current, not suspects of current UU mons
  • If a Pokemon that is currently UU gets a suspect test (e.g. Latias again), will it need a supermajority or simple majority to ban?
  • If supermajority, how much of a supermajority?
In short, the tiering process assumes everything potentially broken was banned in beta, Latias provides some evidence this is not the case, what do we do about Pokemon that are potentially broken but were never banned?

Tiering process thread I referred to: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/underused-tiering.3592197/
 
Per that thread (I admit it's kind of buried in there, I'm considering bolding it and/or adding it to the summary because it's one of the main parts that still matter):
A vote will also be held following each major tier shift, where council members can nominate current metagame elements for a quickban as well as new drops from OU.
Basically we're waiting on tier shifts, which are finally happening "soon". Then after a reasonable amount of time, we are going to hold a round of nominations on what's in the tier, drops from OU included. Nominations need a simple majority to be banned, and banned Pokemon need a 60% supermajority to be reintroduced to the tier. That's what happened with Alakazam a few months ago: it was nominated for a ban after being in the tier since the beginning, was quickbanned, then later voted to stay BL after its suspect test. We are sticking with the usual 12 person council throughout all of this until further notice.
 

FlareBlitz

Relaxed nature. Loves to eat.
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In my admittedly limited experience thus far, Terrakion's best set is subsalac SD. It's threatening enough that I am surprised only one mention of the set made it into the suspect paragraphs. Will be interesting to see how it fits within the overall meta.

In other news, everyone should try bulky CB Krook. It is deceptively bulky (survives Soul Dew Draco Meteor and Scarf Keldeo's secret sword etc) and hits monstrously hard, even against physical walls. To put it into perspective, Swampert risks a 2hko from Knock Off.
 
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