NU Analyses Discussion Thread 2.0

Hi, this thread is meant to primarily discuss one of two things: possible additions/updates to completed analysis and is the place to go to if you want to make a case for a Pokemon that doesn't have an analysis but believe it should receive one.

The first entails the following:

-Whether an analysis needs to be completely rehauled to fit the current metagame

-Whether a set needs to be added/updated

-Other small miscellaneous changes such as giving X move a slash on X Pokemon's set

The second should be self-explanatory, but if you believe that X Pokemon deserves an analysis, make sure nothing completely outclasses it and that it has a good enough niche.

You can also post here if you are not sure on what sets to add in your skeletons. Another option is to lurk in the Neverused room on Pokemon Showdown and ask QC members about it.

ex:
Hi, I was wondering what are the sets that deserves to be on Gorebyss's analysis, with SmashPass banned now I'm not sure if a regular Shell Smash sweeper is good enough to deserve an analysis
 

boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
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Hi - I have a few minor changes that I'd like to bring up here just so anyone can give input on them and such.

Cacturne: I've been using this mon a ton lately, and I think that Energy Ball should be slashed after Giga Drain and Naive should be slashes after Mild. A ton of stuff creep 209 Speed and getting the jump on them is really nice, and there are a few other benchmarks this hits. Apart from the arbitrary creeping mons this also helps with opposing neutral natured base 55s like Exeggutor and Golurk. The slight bit of recovery provided by Giga Drain isnt usually that beneficial imo and by using a +Spe nature over a +Spa nature using a higher base power move is useful to compensate for the decrease in power.

Poliwrath: Leftovers should be slashed on the set somewhere, as Poliwrath greatly appreciates the passive recovery to consistently check the likes of Rhydon and Pawniard, I've used both LO, Specs, and Leftovers and I think lefties deserves a slash for sure but I'm not exactly sure where. (done)

Regirock: Counter should be put in OO, I saw it used once or twice and it deserves a mention.

Exeggutor: I personally dont think this set is good at all, but if we are keeping the LumRest set I think it should run more Speed, enough for Adamant Rhydon which would be a spread of 252 HP / 120 SpA / 136 Spe. (done)

Tauros: Zen Headbutt should be slashed before Rock Slide as it has more general utility due to the more targets it has and the slightly higher base power. Substitute and Pursuit should be mentioned in Moves, as Tauros forces a ton of switches and Tauros behind a sub is super scary, and Pursuit is a broken move is great to trap the likes of Jynx, Choice locked Rotom / Haunter, etc. (done)

Zebstrika: Magnet should be deslashed, as Zebstrika is depressingly weak as is and it really needs the boost from Life Orb. (done)

Garbodor: Drain Punch should have its own moveslot, as it is super important in this metagame to hit the likes of Klinklang and Pawniard. I'm unsure whether or not Haze and Seed Bomb really deserve slashes in the last slot, would like some input on that. (done)

Vileplume: HP Fire should be slashed on the defensive set to hit Klinklang and Pawniard, and I think the slashes should be HP Fire / Sleep Powder with aromatherapy in moves. (done)

Thoughts?
 
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nv

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Hi - I have a few minor changes that I'd like to bring up here just so anyone can give input on them and such.

Garbodor: Drain Punch should have its own moveslot, as it is super important in this metagame to hit the likes of Klinklang and Pawniard. I'm unsure whether or not Haze and Seed Bomb really deserve slashes in the last slot, would like some input on that.
Well I was the one to do the Garbodor analysis so lemme put in my "two cents"...

As of right now, I agree with B&B because when I was in the process of doing the Garb analysis, Seis was still in the tier and iirc I was in GP by then so I didn't "go back and fix it" and just basically adapted my analysis to losing Seis instead of "revamping" the whole set. B&B hit the main points of why Drain Punch is slashed first, and while I agree with what B&B said, I feel like Haze should stay slashed so that it can not be set up on by things like Malamar or Klinklang (although Drain Punch takes care of the latter). Overall, I understand what B&B said and agree with his position even if it means Haze and Seed Bomb is unslashed / only gets a Moves mention. The rest of them I will go over maybe in the future, but just thought since I did the Garb analysis, I would give my input.
 

Punchshroom

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Just gonna bring up this mon for a (possible) revamp.



So first thing I noticed was the thing's EV spread, meant to outspeed uninvested base 55s. However, they don't exist since Cacturne, Exeggutor, and Golurk all run at least some Speed investment so the spread is pretty outdated already, but that is something that can be fixed through SCMS or whatever it's called.

The bigger reason I thought this needed an overhaul is because I am not a big fan of the main set, which just isn't that great in this meta. I mean sure it has cool moves like Knock Off, Drain Punch, and Sucker Punch which it has STAB on, but it's just so easy to respond to these days; the bulky Rocks and Poisons have no trouble with it whatsoever due to the fact that Kecleon, as well as its physical moves, sadly aren't that strong even with the solid neutral coverage at its disposal, and despite all of its priority options most offensive teams barely struggle with Kecleon since it just doesn't offer much over other more threatening priority users like Kangaskhan, Cacturne, Fletchinder, etc. So Kecleon is kind of getting the worst of both worlds both in terms or abusing its STAB coverage and differentiating itself from other priority users, unless...

Kecleon @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 172 or 140 or 92 Atk / 252 SpA / 84 or 116 (for Gourgeist-XL) or 164 Spe (for Weezing)
Mild Nature
- Fire Blast
- Grass Knot
- Sucker Punch
- Knock Off

This set at least attempts to patch up its former issue. What good is having STAB on everything when you struggle to break the common walls in the tier and are too slow to hit the faster mons with your vast coverage? Fire Blast OHKOes mons like Vileplume, Gourgeist, Mawile, Ferroseed, and Torterra while doing a lot of damage to Weezing and Garbodor, whereas Grass Knot OHKOes Carracosta, Rhydon, Quagsire and does plenty against Regirock. Knock Off cripples the stragglers like Lanturn, Prinplup, and bulky Psychics, so Kecleon can do well at tackling bulky cores. STAB Sucker Punch keeps it relevant against offensive teams.

I know special Kecleon has been mentioned in OO of the current Kecleon analysis, but this set just seems more effective in this meta; it barely even loses much in the transition from physical Kecleon to specially mixed Kecleon. Sure the set lacks Drain Punch but frankly I cannot see much situations where Drain Punch would be favorable over Fire Blast or Grass Knot (or outright switching, because most mons that get OHKOed by Drain Punch can KO Kecleon back D:).

Now here is where I start to have some doubts with this revamp: this set is functionally identical to mixed Cacturne. Just look at it: dual STABs that dismantle most bulky cores in the tier, STAB Sucker Punch, the two even struggle with the same kind of Pokemon (AV Yama, Combusken, Gurdurr, Mega Audino), except Cacturne has slightly more power (the Dark Pulse being stronger than the Fire Blast), and its Sucker Punch is both much stronger and more effective due to Cacturne's immunity to Sleep Powder and Aqua Jet, which also adds into Cacturne's defensive utility which Kecleon lacks. The most distinct difference between the two would be that mixed Kecleon trades the matchup against bulky Waters for a more favored one against bulky Grasses, which still doesn't sound like an even trade since Cacturne doesn't struggle with bulky Grasses unless they are specially defensive. At least Kecleon has that surprise factor going for it but it didn't last too long in Cacturne's case so even Kecleon's success as a lure can be on shaky ground.

Despite that, I still believe an outclassed set should take precedence over a downright ineffective one (Rain sweeper Armaldo > defensive Armaldo, anyone?), so Kecleon should probably still be updated. Thoughts?
 
I've been using Pikachu a bit lately, specifically in the UU division. While it's true that since I'm new to competitive, and consequently been matched with some noobs, but I still believe Pikachu's not deserving of such a low tier, even though it needs its Light Ball to be anything more than a dead weight. (Like I state, I'm a bit new, so please, don't judge this evaluation too roughly, constructive criticism would be nice)

Pikachu @ Light Ball
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Nuzzle
- Volt Switch
- Brick Break

I'm not exactly sure which ability to put on him. It displays Static here, but I'm starting to think Lightning Rod is a better choice, since it allows you to at least switch into an Electric type attack. Static is relatively useless because Pika''s Defense stat is an abysmal 40, meaning it can't afford to risk that Static play, especially when it already has Nuzzle. I'll change that after I post this review. Another thing I want to mention is that I just randomly slapped Brick Break and hoped it would be useful, mostly because it can break screens. But if anyone has a better option, please let me know.

This EV spread is used because Pikachu+Light Ball is built to be purely offensive. 252 Attack fits in with Pikachu's 110 Attack stat and his set of physical moves, ensuring that Fake Out, Nuzzle, and Volt Switch (plus Brick Break, to some degree) do maximum damage. 252 Speed EVs + Jolly Nature make sure that Nuzzle and Volt Switch land first, because Pikachu, as you all know, cannot tank hits. ...and 4 SpD is random. it's just leftover.

The main thing I want to focus on is the first three moves. The reason that I think Pikachu should be more effective in the new metagame is because of the new addition to his move pool, Nuzzle. While it's not much different from Thunder Wave, only by 20 power, it's useful because it serves a dual role, hitting for damage, and having a 100% paralyze rate. As Punchshroom states in his status update above, paralysis is a very annoying condition, especially for Pokemon that need a significant speed stat to play their part. The first moveslot is for Fake Out, which, at least to me, has seen a significant rise in use lately (Mega Kanga VGC, anyone?). I usually use this move to get some free damage when Pika comes in again, and combined with it's 110 Attack(Light Ball boosted) and Volt Switch, it's something Pika can abuse, as long as you have a slow U-Turner. Lack of speed is obviously required because Pikachu, like I mentioned before, can't take even a normal STAB hit. Otherwise, Fake Out is also a solid way to get revenge damage(probably not going to kill) Volt Switch is also useful to get Pika out after it uses Nuzzle, and gets a paralysis going. In addition, Volt Switch can allow it to form a VoltTurn core. Other Pokemon that can also apply this strategy (found here ->http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/moves/nuzzle/) don't fill this role as well as Pikachu, except maybe Life Orbed Raichu, which is more cut out for special Attacking.

This strategy, however, is checked quite easily by Ground types, who are immune to both Nuzzle and Volt. Yet I only found 13 NU ground types in a list of 200+ NUs (If Ctrl + f turned out right), so I think Pikachu should be given a bit more appreciation.

thanks for reading, and please do remember that this is my first rating of a pokemon. Constructive criticism would be nice, as I am constantly looking for ways to get better. :D
 
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boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
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I've been using Pikachu a bit lately, specifically in the UU division. While it's true that since I'm new to competitive, and consequently been matched with some noobs, but I still believe Pikachu's not deserving of such a low tier, even though it needs its Light Ball to be anything more than a dead weight. (Like I state, I'm a bit new, so please, don't judge this evaluation too roughly, constructive criticism would be nice)

Pikachu @ Light Ball
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Nuzzle
- Volt Switch
- Brick Break

I'm not exactly sure which ability to put on him. It displays Static here, but I'm starting to think Lightning Rod is a better choice, since it allows you to at least switch into an Electric type attack. Static is relatively useless because Pika''s Defense stat is an abysmal 40, meaning it can't afford to risk that Static play, especially when it already has Nuzzle. I'll change that after I post this review. Another thing I want to mention is that I just randomly slapped Brick Break and hoped it would be useful, mostly because it can break screens. But if anyone has a better option, please let me know.

This EV spread is used because Pikachu+Light Ball is built to be purely offensive. 252 Attack fits in with Pikachu's 110 Attack stat and his set of physical moves, ensuring that Fake Out, Nuzzle, and Volt Switch (plus Brick Break, to some degree) do maximum damage. 252 Speed EVs + Jolly Nature make sure that Nuzzle and Volt Switch land first, because Pikachu, as you all know, cannot tank hits. ...and 4 SpD is random. it's just leftover.

The main thing I want to focus on is the first three moves. The reason that I think Pikachu should be more effective in the new metagame is because of the new addition to his move pool, Nuzzle. While it's not much different from Thunder Wave, only by 20 power, it's useful because it serves a dual role, hitting for damage, and having a 100% paralyze rate. As Punchshroom states in his status update above, paralysis is a very annoying condition, especially for Pokemon that need a significant speed stat to play their part. The first moveslot is for Fake Out, which, at least to me, has seen a significant rise in use lately (Mega Kanga VGC, anyone?). I usually use this move to get some free damage when Pika comes in again, and combined with it's 110 Attack(Light Ball boosted) and Volt Switch, it's something Pika can abuse, as long as you have a slow U-Turner. Lack of speed is obviously required because Pikachu, like I mentioned before, can't take even a normal STAB hit. Otherwise, Fake Out is also a solid way to get revenge damage(probably not going to kill) Volt Switch is also useful to get Pika out after it uses Nuzzle, and gets a paralysis going. In addition, Volt Switch can allow it to form a VoltTurn core. Other Pokemon that can also apply this strategy (found here ->http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/moves/nuzzle/) don't fill this role as well as Pikachu, except maybe Life Orbed Raichu, which is more cut out for special Attacking.

This strategy, however, is checked quite easily by Ground types, who are immune to both Nuzzle and Volt. Yet I only found 13 NU ground types in a list of 200+ NUs (If Ctrl + f turned out right), so I think Pikachu should be given a bit more appreciation.

thanks for reading, and please do remember that this is my first rating of a pokemon. Constructive criticism would be nice, as I am constantly looking for ways to get better. :D
Hi there, welcome to Smogon!
I appreciate the time and effort you spent on the post, but unfortunately Pikachu wont be getting an NU analysis as it is not viable enough in the tier. That isn't to say its unusable, I've seen some people have a little success with Pikachu here and there, but at the moment we are only giving analyses to Pokemon that are viable and significant to NU. If anything, Pikachu might get an analysis for PU sometime in the future but at the moment we are only obligated to give analyses to fully evolved Pokemon and Pikachu doesn't hold too high in PU either.
 
Hi there, welcome to Smogon!
I appreciate the time and effort you spent on the post, but unfortunately Pikachu wont be getting an NU analysis as it is not viable enough in the tier. That isn't to say its unusable, I've seen some people have a little success with Pikachu here and there, but at the moment we are only giving analyses to Pokemon that are viable and significant to NU. If anything, Pikachu might get an analysis for PU sometime in the future but at the moment we are only obligated to give analyses to fully evolved Pokemon and Pikachu doesn't hold too high in PU either.
okay, thanks. -Game Freak, buff plz- In the meantime, any viable options for that last slot? I don't think Brick Break's gonna cut it.
 
I think that Chatot needs another set added to the analysis, specifically a Choice Specs set. The main argument against a Choice Specs set is that it would be outclassed by Swellow. However, other than Speed, Chatot pulls off a Choice Specs set much better than Swellow. Chatot has a decent 92 base Special Attack while Swellow has base 50...They also have three of the exact same moves in Boomburst, Heat Wave, and U-turn, and while Swellow can run Tailwind or Sleep Talk, Chatot gets another spammable move in Chatter, which has a nice 100% confusion chance. Although I agree that Swellow's 125 base Speed is a big plus, base 91 Speed still isn't bad in NU, and the sheer difference in power is more than enough to make up for it imo. Plus, Specs gives Chatot some immediate power against balance and offensive teams, which it can't really get with the current set.

TL;DR Chatot should get a revamp / separate Choice Specs set.

Also, Scarf may be worthy of a set, as Brawlfest seems to have built one of his teams with it: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ashtag-homecooking-w-brawl-and-blast.3542941/

I'm currently testing Scarf Chatot a bit and it's been doing okay, will try to provide replays soon

http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-nu-261450052
Chatot revenge kills Haunter, probably could've cleaned w/Chatter but wasn't sure if it would KO Regirock
 
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boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
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In regards to the above, I dont really think choiced Chatot is that great as I've only seen it used a little bit by Disjunction, so if he thinks it deserves a set chime in.
Here are a few discussion points I'd like to bring up:

Kangaskhan: This deserves a full revamp, as the information overall is pretty outdated, most notably the Assault Vest sets EV spread is designed to live Choice Specs Typhlosions Eruption x_x

Pelipper: Full revamp, most notably changing the slashes in moveslot 4 as Toxic just really doesnt have much of a purpose with Seismitoad gone, which is what Toxic was mainly used for. SpDef also deserves a good mention somewhere as its basically Mantine with Roost over Water Absorb, and there was also one team I made where I felt Defog was unnecessary which allowed me to use Rain Dish, which is nice to mess with Ludicolo.

Weezing: I think the slashes should be moved around a bit, most importantly with Taunt at the very least being slashed first if not having its own moveslot. Without Taunt, Weezing is setup fodder for Mega Audino, which, well, sucks. Moves 1 & 2, being Will-O-Wisp and Sludge Bomb, are mandatory, and I think that moveslot 3 should be Taunt alone, as I rarely felt that Pain Split would have been useful.

Sawk: Poison Jab should be moved to OO [it literally hits just the rare Granbull], Stone Edge should replace Ice Punch on Scarf so it can revenge Scyther, and Custap Berry should be added to OO. Custap is really nice to further improve Sawk's matchup versus offensive teams and has a bit of surprise factor.

Vileplume: Hidden Power Ground should be slashed somewhere, maybe even replacing Hidden Power Fire as the benefits of hitting Garbodor and Skuntank over missing out on Ferroseed seems like it is more useful.

Scyther: Tailwind and Reversal should be mentioned somewhere, most likely in OO. Both of these I've seen used to some success, a fast Tailwind is always a great support for slower wallbreakers, and Reversal benefits from Scyther taking Stealth Rock damage and is significantly stronger than Brick Break given that Scyther is low on HP.

Thoughts?
 

rubsomebacononit

I was cringe and annoying when I was on smogon RIP
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Ok, This might not be the most viable Pokemon in NU, but I feel that Meowstic-M needs a full revamp. First off, overall the analysis looks fairly lacking. Second, the analysis mentions banned Pokemon such as Uxie and Spiritomb. In TO it does not mention Defiant users such as Pawniard (which can switch into Psychic-types) and Primeape (can take care of Fighting-types) and Contrary users such as Malamar and Servine, which are kind of niche, but can switch into a defog (malamar is especially important here as the rest talk set does not mind thunder wave or yawn and it can proceed to superpower to gain boosts). In TO It should probably mention Skuntank as a Pursuit trapper for the Psychic-types that Meowstic has trouble dealing with and Fighting-types such as Sawk. For C&C Taunt Liepard is bad, but it should mention that it can outspeed and Encore thanks to Prankster, and if carrying pursuit can pursuit trap it (does not have the space for it though). C&C should also probably mention pursuit trappers (skuntank), and malamar as it does not care,.

Thanks for your time.
 
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Disjunction

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In regards to the above, I dont really think choiced Chatot is that great as I've only seen it used a little bit by Disjunction, so if he thinks it deserves a set chime in.
Specs is, like, it's best set so I agree completely.

Sawk: Poison Jab should be moved to OO [it literally hits just the rare Granbull], Stone Edge should replace Ice Punch on Scarf so it can revenge Scyther, and Custap Berry should be added to OO. Custap is really nice to further improve Sawk's matchup versus offensive teams and has a bit of surprise factor.
Lum Berry too. Right, Kiyo? :)

Agree with others
 

Kiyo

the cowboy kid
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Ok, so we want to get cradily moving, but in order to do that we need to decide on an optimal set for it to be running. from the current thread we have three suggestions: one from the writer (specially defensive), one from dentricos (weakness policy bulky attacker), and one from me (physically defensive). Feel free to weigh in on the matter if you have a strong opinion on this or have experience with cradily, if you need more information on the suggested sets than what you find here feel free to check out the analysis: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/cradily-qc-0-3.3547494/

here's a really quick run down of pros and cons for each set in my eyes:
1. spdef - deals with special waters better, struggles to switch into physical waters like ice punch floatzel and megahorn samu. only takes leaf storm from shiftry not a knock off, ohko'd by +2rhydon
2. wp - gains boost from weak coverage moves such as u-turn drain punch, ice beam, and signal beam in order to deal large amounts of damage to opponents, however it can struggle with longevity and can struggle to earn its keep in some games. choosing moveslots can also be difficult. As well as wp being a one time use.
3. def - struggles to switch into specially offensive waters like ice beam samu, handles physical megahorn samu better though as well as +2 rhydon. switches into and isn't 2hko'd by Life Orb Shiftry's move combos

obviously i suggested one of the sets so my opinion and explanation may be a little biased (for example switching into shiftry is a pro for the defensive set but maybe since its not a goal for spdef its not really a con?) lets get some discussion going in this discussion thread imo
 
The Weakness Policy set is pretty cool, but I honestly can't see it being more a strong OO mention right now, since Cradily is going to be very easy to revenge kill after taking out an opponent (which is only compounded further by its bad Speed). And like Kiyo said, the set struggles to earn its keep in some games, whereas this is not the case with the other two sets.

Also, since a physically defensive and specially defensive spread play quite differently from each other, why not give sets to both?
 
I would like to propose that Wing Attack be replaced over all mentions of Aerial Ace on the Scyther Analysis. Wing Attack is preferred over Aerial Ace for all sets as they have the same Base Power but Wing Attach has more PP. Aerial Ace should get a mention in OO though for those concerned about accuracy lowering attack/evasion items.
 

boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
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I would like to propose that Wing Attack be replaced over all mentions of Aerial Ace on the Scyther Analysis. Wing Attack is preferred over Aerial Ace for all sets as they have the same Base Power but Wing Attach has more PP. Aerial Ace should get a mention in OO though for those concerned about accuracy lowering attack/evasion items.
The difference between the two is so minimal that it's really not worth changing at all. I'm not going to do it, but if someone else cares enough to replace them all go ahead. Also, we are not having a half page argument over wing attack vs aerial ace, I saw what happened on the UU analyses discussions thread. Any more posts on this will be deleted.
 
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Blast

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Hello I have things and stuff:

Arbok: needs an offensive set, I think spdef Coil is still decent but offensive Coil is the only Arbok I see these days.

Audino: Grass Knot > Psychic on the offensive set, hitting Rhydon and Quag is far more important than anything else. The support set should also have Audinite slashed first and possibly deslash Lefties altogether, regular Audino is rarely worth it since you can just hold Audinite and not Mega Evolve until you need to. The spread should also probably be changed, full spdef is super uncommon from what I've seen.

Cacturne: Is SD worth it? I really don't think a Scald immunity and stronger Sucker compare to Shiftry's Knock Off and Speed.

Cryogonal: Maybe a bit nitpicky but the Overview is too positive about Cryo, it's pretty bad atm and that isn't reflected at all there. Also is defensive Cryo any good anymore?

Haunter: Scarf Haunter is awful in this meta and the stallbreaker set is by far the best, I wouldn't be opposed to straight up removing Scarf.

Lapras: This needs an analysis, tagging Disjunction for my free like :pimp:

Poliwrath: Should Rain Dance be deslashed? It sounds SUPER niche to me and I'm pretty sure Belly Drum Poliwrath is better on rain anyway, though I can't say for sure cause I don't use rain lol

Sawk: I think a non-Choice set should be added, it's been getting a decent bit of usage for a while and it's better than Scarf.

Vileplume: HP Ground > HP Fire, though I'm unsure on whether to keep HP Fire slashed or not.

Vivillon: Sash Endeavor should be first, Sash in general is way better than Sub right now.

Xatu: Thunder Wave > Heat Wave on the pivot set, it's way better.
 

boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
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Hello I have things and stuff:

Arbok: needs an offensive set, I think spdef Coil is still decent but offensive Coil is the only Arbok I see these days.

Audino: Grass Knot > Psychic on the offensive set, hitting Rhydon and Quag is far more important than anything else. The support set should also have Audinite slashed first and possibly deslash Lefties altogether, regular Audino is rarely worth it since you can just hold Audinite and not Mega Evolve until you need to. The spread should also probably be changed, full spdef is super uncommon from what I've seen.

Cacturne: Is SD worth it? I really don't think a Scald immunity and stronger Sucker compare to Shiftry's Knock Off and Speed.

Cryogonal: Maybe a bit nitpicky but the Overview is too positive about Cryo, it's pretty bad atm and that isn't reflected at all there. Also is defensive Cryo any good anymore?

Haunter: Scarf Haunter is awful in this meta and the stallbreaker set is by far the best, I wouldn't be opposed to straight up removing Scarf.

Lapras: This needs an analysis, tagging Disjunction for my free like :pimp:

Poliwrath: Should Rain Dance be deslashed? It sounds SUPER niche to me and I'm pretty sure Belly Drum Poliwrath is better on rain anyway, though I can't say for sure cause I don't use rain lol

Sawk: I think a non-Choice set should be added, it's been getting a decent bit of usage for a while and it's better than Scarf.

Vileplume: HP Ground > HP Fire, though I'm unsure on whether to keep HP Fire slashed or not.

Vivillon: Sash Endeavor should be first, Sash in general is way better than Sub right now.

Xatu: Thunder Wave > Heat Wave on the pivot set, it's way better.
Arbok: I remember marilli brought up having an offensive set in the qc pm, and I certainly dont see why not - having an extra coverage move sounds really helpful, just from theory I think the set should be Coil / Gunk / Sucker / Seed Bomb with a mention of EQ in moves. Lets name the set venom xd

Audino: Made Grass Knot the only move in slot 4 on offensive and moved Surf to OO; it was cute to hit Camerupt and Fletchinder when they were around but now I dont see much use for it. I also deslashed Leftovers and fixed around the set details and moves mentions regarding its ordering, but I kept it in set details since it seems better than OO. I agree that max spdef probably isnt the best but I dont really know what would be better so I just left the spread as is for now.

Cacturne: I definitely agree with removing SD, I remember mentioning this to you recently, as mixed is easily Cacturnes best set, and maybe only since I havent seen the sash set used well. The mixed set makes use of Spikes and Destiny Bond, which are 2 of its main niches over Shiftry. At the very least the SD set should be removed (and maybe the sash set as well), but I think that a revamp for Cacturne is pretty reasonable if others agree that it should get one.

Cryogonal: I mean, the analysis was written in XY when it was actually kinda good (I guess) and I dont think anybody bothered to update the overview so that explains why its so positive, and I agree that a defensive set is really bad. Its not taking advantage of Cryo's nice Speed tier, which is one of the main reasons to use it. Cryo should probably get a revamp imo since it was written so long ago and certainly doesnt reflect how it plays in the current meta.

Haunter: Not too sure on removing scarf entirely, but agree that stallbreaker should be the first set. Also, has anyone actually used Sub Disable? The set really doesnt sound that great tbh and it seems more like OO material imo.

Lapras: Agree, its certainly worthy.

Poliwrath: Yeah from the rain games here and there that I've seen Belly Drum is by far the most effective set for poli on rain (not that I think it deserves a set on the analysis) and Vacuum is really good in general and I dont think Rain Dance even deserves a moves mention.

Sawk: Black Belt is currently slashed on the first set, but I'm totally cool with removing that slash and making non choiced a separate set since they play pretty differently.

Vileplume: Agree that HP Ground is really good, but I think HP Fire might deserve being slashed bc hitting ferro is still pretty useful so I'd like to hear some others thought on it.

Vivillon: No strong feelings on this one, but I think that Energy Ball or Giga Drain deserve strong mentions or slashed on the main QD set since sub or HP ground seem kinda meh atm and Grass coverage is especially nice with Rhydon everywhere.

Xatu: Agree, and I also dont think that Giga Drain should be the first slash there. Yeah, it hits Rhydon, but Thunder Wave or Heat Wave sound much more useful. I'd like to hear others thoughts on this one.

While I'm here I think that on the Rock Polish Torterra set, Swords Dance should be deslashed from slot 1 and just be slashed with Stone Edge. I know metaphysical kinda hyped up SD 3 attacks a while back, I don't think it's really that great. Almost all stone edge targets require a rock polish boost to outspeed, and with the relatively fast paced metagame currently, Rock Polish is very important imo and deserves its own moveslot.

Feel free to chime in if you have any thoughts on the topics brought up.
 
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Kiyo

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Arbok: Agree.
Audino: We should probably just make the QueenOfLuvdiscs spread the main one unless someone feels like finding something more optimal. Lefties Audino is trash imo, just remove that shit entirely.
Cacturne: I'm indifferent. I personally really like SD but its harder to build with and generally less consistent.
Cryogonal: I like defensive Cryogonal with Safety Goggles, but thats probably because I only use Cryo on that niche as fuck Sand Stall team i made earlier in the year.
Haunter: uh Scarf is ass in this meta imo, it's like trying to run barrier cm musharna, just not worth it with all the dark types that can pursuit trap you.
Lapras: Fine.
Poliwrath: I really dislike even having a Belly Drum set for this thing in the first place, it's far too unreliable to be considered good. Rain Dance isn't worth a moves mention, OO that shit.
Sawk: I'd like a Lum Berry mention if there isn't one already, I also changed my mind about Custap. I think its good enough for at least a stronger mention on a non choiced set.
Vileplume: I'd keep HP Fire first honestly, Ferroseed isn't as common as it should be but I still see it quite a bit.
Vivillon: Rhydon's on every team you need Energy Ball, agree. I really think the sub set should just wither away and die, the lead momentum grabbing set is where its at. rarely will you actually see a vivillon sweeping imo.
Xatu: I don't think Heat Wave or Giga Drain really deserve strong mentions on pivot at all, either U-turn out or T-wave something.

agree with the torterra bit too.
 
Hi, I'd like to suggest slashing Lum Berry first on the Pursuit Skuntank set. I think it's crucial for Skuntank to actually be able to do its job properly - dodging burns from Ghost types such as Rotom, TWaves from Xatu and other Psychics, and obviously Lovely Kiss from Jynx. From my point of view it's just the superior item 90% of the time and this should be reflected on the analysis.

bolts edit: did this n_n
also moved the 24 hp evs to spdef on the main spread
 
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nv

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Haunter: Scarf Haunter is awful in this meta and the stallbreaker set is by far the best, I wouldn't be opposed to straight up removing Scarf.
Haunter: Not too sure on removing scarf entirely, but agree that stallbreaker should be the first set. Also, has anyone actually used Sub Disable? The set really doesnt sound that great tbh and it seems more like OO material imo.
Haunter: uh Scarf is ass in this meta imo, it's like trying to run barrier cm musharna, just not worth it with all the dark types that can pursuit trap you.
I see all these concerns with an analysis I did so lemme clarify...back when I did the analysis there wasn't a "plethora" of Dark-types like there are now and I do agree that Scarf is ass rn due to the influx of said Dark-types and as such the Stallbreaker set should be the first set...I also agree with B&B that SubDisable is rarely seen and as such should be OO.
 

Pokedots

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I've been using it quite a bit lately and think the defensive Rotom set should have Sitrus Berry>Leftovers as the main item, with Lefties in set details and a mention of Colbur Berry. Hex should definitely be used over Shadow Ball, too. The set I've been using has been max speed 144 HP / 112 Def, I don't know if that should be the main spread since the one onsite has significantly more bulk but outspeeding Jolly Sawk, Kanga, and stuff like Zangoose is really nice
 

boltsandbombers

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I've been using it quite a bit lately and think the defensive Rotom set should have Sitrus Berry>Leftovers as the main item, with Lefties in set details and a mention of Colbur Berry. Hex should definitely be used over Shadow Ball, too. The set I've been using has been max speed 144 HP / 112 Def, I don't know if that should be the main spread since the one onsite has significantly more bulk but outspeeding Jolly Sawk, Kanga, and stuff like Zangoose is really nice
Did this, although I kept the spread the same.

Some other things that I'd like to bring up for discussion / say that I did:

Archeops - I rearranged the slashes so that Aqua Tail is second, not third. Its generally more common and useful in this meta.

Claydol - Honestly, I dont think that Leftovers are very good at all, and I think the slashes should be Colbur Berry / Soft Sand. Being able to check Fighting types slightly more effectively is quite useful in general and is what I usually end up putting on Claydol, and Soft Sand has good merit as well for the obvious as to what it does. Leftovers just seem really arbitrary in their purpose for Claydol.

Golem - I moved the CB set first, its really the only set I've seen that uses Golem to its full potential. Maybe my sample size by just seeing Kiyo spam the sheddy team repeatedly throws this off but most of the time on hyper offensive teams you'd want something like Archeops, Pinsir, or even Rampardos as a suicide lead.

Golurk - The Stealth Rock set should be first imo, as while I'm aware that CB Golurk is near impossible to switch into, having the ability to switch up moves consistently and the fact that its a Stealth Rock setter which beats Xatu is always a great thing to have on a team, and to some degree makes the set more splashable.

Gurdurr - Taunt in OO? I havent seen it used or used it, but I think Aladyyn used it on an RMT a while back and his explanation was that it beat Quagsire, which seems pretty cool but I'm not sure if thats enough to warrant a mention.

Haunter - SubDisable should move to OO imo, its cool and all but seems very gimmicky and much less reliable than the Stallbreaker set which is just so much more threatening to most teams.

Magmortar - AV should be the first set, while its certainly not as threatening as LO / Ebelt in general, its much more splashable and from what I've seen and used, and is more effective given its longevity over the LO set.

Piloswine - I think that Icicle Spear should be deslashed, as it is significantly weaker than Icicle Crash unless you get 4 hits, and in general its main utility is breaking Substitutes and Focus Sash users, but most sub users (and there arent a ton) dont have their subs broken by Icicle Spear anyways.

Tauros - thoughts on deslashing Rock Slide? Its generally not as useful as Zen Headbutt, as most of its targets like Pelipper, Rotom-S, Scyther, and Archeops are either getting outsped and are somewhat easy to wear down (Pelipper only needs to take rocks for climb to 2HKO), while Scyther I guess that has the merit but Archeops only needs some prior damage for Zen Headbutt to kill.

Xatu: In the 3rd slot, which is currently Giga Drain / Heat Wave, I think that it should be changed to Thunder Wave / Heat Wave, as Thunder Wave is just more useful in general to deal with faster threats and prevent stuff like Scyther from setting up on it, while Heat Wave as a coverage move has much more broad application than Giga Drain in terms of the number of targets it has.

Thoughts?
 
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boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
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Did all the above except for Taunt for Gurdurr since I'm iffy on it.

Posting here for posterity in regards to some additional changes I've made.

Haunter:

Moved both Sub Disable and Scarf to OO, as they are both simply bad sets in this metagame and Life Orb is the only set worth using.
Deslashed and got rid of Eviolite, I really can't see a scenario where it would be beneficial given that its bulk is still near non existent even with the Eviolite boost, and the drop in power is very significant.
Slashed Will-O-Wisp before Taunt, as its utility is generally superior most notably to hit Skuntank.
Removed miscellaneous coverage moves from OO like Giga Drain, Thunderbolt, and Dazzling Gleam.
Added Dark-types to C&C.

Xatu:

Deslashed Rocky Helmet, Colbur is pretty much the only item worth using on it in this meta. Added Skuntank mentions.

Exeggutor:

Moved LumRest to OO and made adjustments to team options and C&C with meta changes.

Musharna:

Added mentions of Shiftry and Skuntank.
 
Adding on to the list of changes~

Changes that were already made:


Frogadier: Removed mentions of Uxie and Fletchinder. Added mentions of Shiftry and Musharna to the analysis.

Gourgeist-S: Made Foul Play as the only attacking option on it, as it leaves it as setup bait for mons such as Klinklang. Foul Play still does reliable damage to SD Samurott and Kabutops, as well as Barbaracle. The only thing it hits is Lanturn, but the benefits of Foul Play outweigh this.

Gurdurr: Added Skuntank to the list of team options.

Lanturn: Added mentions of Shiftry throughout the analysis.

Mightyena: Removed this because it's not viable.

Poliwrath: Life Orb was deslashed, but left in set details, as Poilwrath doesn't exactly like being worn down by the recoil, when it needs to stay healthy against the Pokemon it checks.

Vanilluxe: Made Ice Shard first slash on the last slot of Vanilluxe; it's just far more useful than the coverage that Signal Beam or Flash Cannon provides.

Things QC is still unsure of:

Primape: Choice Band was moved to the first set, because it's the set that's far more consistent in the meta, but I'd like some opinions on what people think of the Encore set. Some of the info is outdated on it, so maybe this deserves a revamp.

This is already getting a revamp so ignore this

Musharna: Offensive Trick Room is a set I'm not entirely sure on, so I'd like some input as to whether this deserves to stay as a set or not. Personally I've never seen anyone utilize it over CM or pivot sets and with how common things like Skuntank are, it makes me question its viability.
 
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