ORAS Ubers Analysis Index (See Post #394)

nominating whimiscott (someone else writes the analysis if its accepted)

why is whim viable and deserving of an analysis?

dice used whim in xy and i was interested in it but meta was awful for whim. later on, i explored it again in oras and found it to be far more effective with a more offensive and set up-based meta.

it's an anti-meta mon that exploits the abundance of resisted, immunities and support moves to wear down your opponent's team. if it's played properly, it will take down 1-2 mons from your opponent and weaken the rest of the team. the biggest challenge of using whim is that you need to know the meta and competitive mons theory deeply. if you don't, you will misuse whim and make it basically a dead slot. whim has a high skill floor to be utilized efficiently.

how to play whim well is to understand whim's role. you switch whim into free turns or risk-free supp moves (hazards, sub, stat boosts, trick room, and etc) and then threaten with encore. what you do is, you force a low risk with high reward 50/50. if they switch out and you sub or leech, then you just successfully started loop. if you have sr up, then minimum of one pokemon will faint to whim. other mons will be also weakened. so basically, you use whim to leverage free turns into long term health leech.

mons that whim leverages on are: latios, latias, groudon-primal (certain sets), darkrai, klefki, giratina-o, defensive yveltal, arceus-dragon, kangaskhan-mega (fake out/sucker encore is lol), and pretty much any time your opponent clicks a set up move (which includes top meta threats such as mence and xern!).
mons that whim HATES: sableye, diancie, ho-oh, and ekiller. obviously, ekiller priority can fuck over whim but its possible to play around it. magic bouncers r something that you just need teammates to deal with. ho-oh is troublesome if sr isnt up, otherwise ho-oh teams just gets owned with constant forced switching and taunted defogs.

i understand that whim can look a bit gimmicky but i swear it works very well. there's also potential for memento sets but i havent bothered looking into these possibilities.

vs zf: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-355547402
vs trout: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-298895621
vs lvl 56: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-298889687
vs steel: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-298126202

there's many more replays but i only selected few good ones that really showcases whim's potential.
 
★Orch: gg
★steelphoenix: sure
As if the proof wasn't enough already.

Truth be told, Whimsicott can really catch the opponent off-guard, and I am not talking about the instances where you get caught off-guard by a random move on a certain Pokémon. Once you got into that "loop" orch mentioned, you get at least 1 guaranteed kill. There have been lots of times where my opponent kept circling around, taking SR damage, being totally unable to do anything. Whimsicott is indeed a strange case. In my opinion, Prankster Taunt and Encore can really put pressure on the opponent's team and create set-up opportunities for its teammates to either break a few walls or outright win. I'd post some replays, but I think Orch's are enough. For me, Whimsicott was one of those mons that I kept "knocking", but then I tried it and I changed my opinion about it.

I am not saying it should be S rank or anything like that, but I do believe it should be somewhere on our list, and certainly above D.
 
Regarding Whimsicott, I think it's worth an analysis (can I write if approved as nobody else has claimed). This Mon can be used in a lot of ways, including the already stated set and a stun spore set I've seen (Whimsicott is practically the only decent Mon who can consistently paralyze P-don and Groundceus) that can be paired well with the above (I'm assuming fairy stab is run to deal with Darkrai so I'd slash one of sub/seed or make it a new set). Whilst Klefki can compete with it for a role, some key resistances, encore, stun spore, sub-seed and higher speed give it a good niche in the meta.
 

Aberforth

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Can Fairyceus get a revamp to this set:

Arceus-Fairy @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Judgment
- Iron Defense
- Recover


Fireburn posted it in the creative sets thread and after testing this is actually so much better than the current Dex set.
 
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Aberforth

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Defensive set up sweeper. As soon as toxic from Klefki is out of the picture, it can set up and win without much difficulty against common balance and bulky offenses. Also checks stuff like Mence and Thunder Darkrai after something has already been put to sleep.
 
Usually, CM mono attack Arcei need to be immune to status, otherwise it's difficult for them to break something. And not being SE vs. Lugia doesn't seem to help it much. But I digress. It might be good in practice. I will probably end up trying it out at some point.
 

Aberforth

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Its not really a stallbreaker, much more of a balance-breaker. Its meant to shut down Ho-oh offenses without much effort.
 
i'd like the salamence analysis to include the "200hp/132 attack /176 speed" bulky set up spread.
i also have no idea who the "248 HP/136 Def/124 Spe" spread is used by... it should probably be "248hp/132attack/128spe" so you can actually deal damage and outspeed +2 56 speed evs Pdon after dd. no need to include the prior spread if this gets changed imo
facade is common enough to be slashed next to refresh or eq as a move, being mentioned once does not represent how good it can be
sorry for the nitpicking im reaaally bored right now ._.


edit: i agree with pomman about the fairyceus set, its pretty good and deserves a spot
 
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Aberforth

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Can Yveltal have some work done on it? There's no Knock off set outside of a throwaway line about it being Subpar in other options, despite seeing a fair amount of tour use recently.
 
i'd like the salamence analysis to include the "200hp/132 attack /176 speed" bulky set up spread.
i also have no idea who the "248 HP/136 Def/124 Spe" spread is used by... it should probably be "248hp/132attack/128spe" so you can actually deal damage and outspeed +2 56 speed evs Pdon after dd. no need to include the prior spread if this gets changed imo
facade is common enough to be slashed next to refresh or eq as a move, being mentioned once does not represent how good it can be
sorry for the nitpicking im reaaally bored right now ._.


edit: i agree with pomman about the fairyceus set, its pretty good and deserves a spot
Ι agree about the 124 speed on Salamence to get changed to 128. It ties with 56 Speed Groudon-Primal at 124. Probably an oversight by whoever made it?
 
well approving these is one thing...

fairyceus: approved
whimsicott: personally i could see this happening but i've yet to hear other qc opinions (Minority Suspect Fireburn Sweep) so i'll see about that first
yveltal: if this just means moving knock off to the life orb set then i suppose, but thats site editing
salamence spreads: changing the spread is fine, but idk if "+2 56 speed pdon" is speed creep reliant aka something that isnt allowed in analyses. does it do anything else?
 

Aberforth

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Is "outspeeds Standard Rock Polish Groudon when both are set up" not enough? I would have thought we could mention relevent speed benchmarks in analysis's. Speed creep is bad (to mention), but specifically outspeeding a common threat is allowed, isn't it?

Also: Fairyceus will be up in like, 14 hours. I need sleep first.
 

Minority

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Whimsicott was QC rejected about a year ago here. A year is a long time and a different analysis writer may be able to do it better justice, just beware that you might put substantial effort into something that gets trashed. I approve of Whimsicott getting another go at it, but that doesn't mean it'll pass QC.

I agree that Knock Off on Yveltal can use a stronger mention, and I'd also be sure to talk about what partners in particular work with it (this can all be done via site editing).

For the Salamence analysis the bulky setup spread can be added to set details via site editing. The 128 Spe spread falls victim to creep (the excuse for even getting 124 is you outspeed max base 90 that are +1). You can use a Mence spread that is very close to 128, but beats something concrete. This is the out, the closest of which is hitting 464 (outspeed max Speed Scarf Lando-T lol). The next highest concrete benchmark is outspeeding +1 max Ray / Kyurem-W, at which point you're only 4 away from what you hit by running 176, making it not worthwhile.

For Arceus-Fairy I thought the set was very interesting, but I haven't gotten around to incorporating it on a team yet so I can't speak for its effectiveness. We have done multiple iterations of Arceus-Fairy analyses already and I think this set should be added to the current analysis rather than replacing it entirely, leaving the analysis with two sets; CM and support.


Something new to bring up is Xern getting a defensive Geomancy set with Rest + Sleep Talk and Block slashed. I'm not super fond of either of these sets, but they get enough widespread use to where they really should have analyses by now. I also believe TR Dialga deserves a set, but I consider this much lower priority. You could also argue for minor touchups on the primary Geo Xern set, EKiller, Ho-Oh, and some other things.
 
Honestly, I don't like the idea of Arceus Fairy with CM + Iron Defence. I think Steel Arceus would do that better as it's immune to Toxic. CM/Judgment/Earth Power/Recover is the best set for Calm Mind Fairy Arceus IMO.
 

Fireburn

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Honestly, I don't like the idea of Arceus Fairy with CM + Iron Defence. I think Steel Arceus would do that better as it's immune to Toxic. CM/Judgment/Earth Power/Recover is the best set for Calm Mind Fairy Arceus IMO.
The entire point of using Iron Defense is to let Fairyceus try to overcome both Groudon and Ho-Oh with one moveslot. Steelceus can't do that because it is weak to Ground and Fire (and will thus still lose).
 
It's a good set. Once Xerneas is down it's hard to stop. Grass and Poison Arceus both have Calm Mind sets listed.

What's the Whirlpool Darkceus set?
 

shrang

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What are everyone's feelings about:

- Change Fightceus' main set to a Fairyceus-style 3 attacks + Recover with Judgement/Stone Edge/Ice Beam/Recover? I know Omfuga's tried this and said Fairyceus is better, but it's probably better than the current Support set that we have. At least this thing can lure Ho-oh/Mence AND check Ekiller and Darkrai.
- CB Ekiller?
 
Since interest is low, i'll put on my thinking cap and do the darkceus set just so we can get it on site. Chansey is back in the running for anyone that wants to take it (unless Sweep has already given it to someone, idk).

What are everyone's feelings about:

- Change Fightceus' main set to a Fairyceus-style 3 attacks + Recover with Judgement/Stone Edge/Ice Beam/Recover? I know Omfuga's tried this and said Fairyceus is better, but it's probably better than the current Support set that we have. At least this thing can lure Ho-oh/Mence AND check Ekiller and Darkrai.
sure
- CB Ekiller?
hooo boy

My first thought is no, if i wanted a REALLY strong ekiller then i'd use the adamant life orb set. i have yet to see any CB sets in ORAS so if you have anything to showcase (info in general also works) i'm down to change opinion.

e: the darkceus set is questionable in viability so far, i'll need to get some opinions before committing.
 
CM Arceus Ground and defensive Arceus Normal should get sets. Yes the former is walled by Ho-Oh, but so are CM Arceus Grass and Fairy, and they still have sets listed.
 

Cynara

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CM Arceus Ground and defensive Arceus Normal should get sets. Yes the former is walled by Ho-Oh, but so are CM Arceus Grass and Fairy, and they still have sets listed.
Hello, CM arceus ground isnt very viable in the tier, since you're forced to run Ice beam to hit ground immunities (if you run stone edge to beat Ho-oh, you face more critical problems, like losing to mence) ice beam is very weak, even at +1 and allows free switch ins to a myriad of pokemon and completely conceededing momentum, Ho-oh latios lugia primal ogre latias skarmory bronzong is just a short list of them. Allowing a free switch in for Ho-oh can really be a critical problem for the CM Groundceus User as they allow Ho-oh to Fire off powerful attacks such as brave bird or risk a sacred fire burn, while you do absolutely nothing back to Ho-oh and I cant empathise how important it is to prevent Ho-oh from having completely free turns.

SD groundceus is much more superior, actually hits ground immunities hard, deals with Ho-oh. CM and defog are in other options of the analysis due to the mentioned problems it faces.

Arceus fairy/grassceus can run a configuration of moves to get past its checks, mainly fairyceus, Grassceus shouldnt be used and therefore isnt explored as much, the philosophy of smogon sets is to get the most out of these pokemon, I feel CM grassceus is the best grassceus can actually do, but it shouldnt be considered on a serious team as it can't run a solid configuration of moves to get past it's checks and faces a similar problem to CM groundceus.

Wallceus is something that shouldnt be considered, It's inferior to Waterceus/Dragonceus, rockceus and even ghostceus and cannot fucntion as well as a defensive arceus due to it's typing, however its used as an Offensive arceus (E killer)
 
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