OU Analyses Discussion Thread

[Martin]

I disagree with the suggestion about Adamant>Jolly on Excadrill because the simple fact is that, with the current trend of sand being fucking everywhere, it is important to outpace opposing adamant Excadrill and to tie with opposing jolly variants in the sand to minimise the team of your sand team rather ironically losing to variants of itself consistently when it is as insanely common as it is. In addition, with SD easily being the best variant and given that if it's not sweeping it is most likely RKing anyway, the added power isn't a complete necessity to the point where it requires that you run a positive nature to not be completely underwhelming.

 

[Alfalfa]

Clefable's OU analysis still mentions Mega Beedrill and Mega Gallade, both of which have fallen significantly out of favor since the beginning of ORAS.

However, ORAS brought Mega Metagross and Mega Beedrill..... Clefable's bulk is also quite underwhelming in practice, making it unable to check Pokemon such as Mega Charizard X and Mega Gallade repeatedly.

These mons should be removed from mentions, as they are rather meh in practice. Also, Clefable relies on its bulk and yet it is still an S Rank threat, so saying its bulk is "quite underwhelming in practice" should probably be reworded to something more accurate, for Clefable would not be the lone S Rank threat if its bulk was quite underwhelming in practice.

 

[Martin]

http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/kyurem-black/

Why is this being on the analysis still a thing? Yeah this set's garb and should be removed.

 

[JuanchoTacorta]

Bulky SD Scizor should have Bug Bite slashed over Knock Off imo. Bug STAB offers great neutral coverage vs Rotom-W and Tankchomp on the switch-in. Also I've heard 248/44/16+/0/200/0 EV spread is kinda outdated maybe

 

[p2]

bug bite sucks on defensive scizor which already utilises uturn sooo

the ev spread is outdated but honestly it's such a versatile mon when it comes to good ev spreads so its difficult to find exactly what should be considered standard

 

[Martin]

I think at the very least we could prolly get away with moving all the attack investment into Def as the current one is dookie due to not beating Lopunny all that consistently. Even if it is still kinda outdated at least it's a better spread than the current one and doesn't need much changing to set details (just remove the sentence about attack investment). Also I did the calcs on it recently 'cause I was sick of not actually knowing what it does (the description of the analysis doesn't actually answer it accurately, as the benchmarks it mentions all need slightly different investment) and it turns out that 200 SpD is the exact investment required to take a HP Fire from max SpA MDian after Stealth Rock, so maybe adding a few words or a sentence in somewhere around where it mentions the SpD investment is worth doing.

 

[AM]

I agree with p2. Theres a bunch of different variants of m-sciz that can be used. Getting caught up on minor nuances seems pointless since people ev scizor to accomplish different stuff. Just leave it be.

 

[volx757]

It's fine by me to deslash Protect but I think Roar should be kept. Roar is a great option for phazing, a precious thing for many teams. I'm not gonna go around and say that Heatran is an excellent phazer, but from my experiences with Roar Tran it has worked decently and saved me a few times. Here are some things that it can phaze:
- Clef: Having Clef TWave you can get extremely annoying, even if you have Taunt.
- Raikou: Less common but getting the Roar while it's behind a Sub could be vital.
- SubSeed Serp: Nice try
Although there's not an entire bunch of mons it can phaze well, the utility definitely comes in handy and is far from an "other option".

I would agree that roar can be very useful on Heatran, and should be slashed in the analysis. In addition to these situations, roar Heatran phazes some calm mind users, such as Clefable, Suicine (even at +1 it only does ~50% with scald), Raikou, non-EP Celebi.
It phazes common switchins like TG Manaphy and BD azu that think they're getting a free turn of setup as you switch (tho I'd always just wisp the Azu).
And, of course, racking up hazard damage against more passive teams that have trouble dealing real damage to it, or stealing momentum from fast volt-turners.

 

[Martin]

Roar Heatran was good back when SpD was relevant, but now that SpD is just generally nonexistent it just isn't a very good move anymore. It can't fall back on it's special bulk as consistently to roar stuff out, and running Roar means that you have to sacrifice Taunt, which is p. much mandatory on utility tran nowadays at least imo. It is just a really niche option at best in general and simply isn't worth it often enough to warrant a slash.

 

[HailFall]

I think the crawdaunt analysis needs to be updated with a cb set. Its absolutely incredible rn and does a fantastic job at pressuring everything from bulky offense to stall.

On the volcarona analysis i think giga drain should be slashed with hp ground as well as bug buzz being slashed with it. bug buzz is chunking most waters not named keldeo or azu at +1 anyways, and fire blast/hp ground/bug buzz sets are v threatening for a lot of builds to face

for azu i think its worth considering putting the bd set above the cb set as cb has a much harder time putting in work nowadays with so many fat grasses around. also i think its worth mentioning a spread of 12 HP / 244 Atk / 252 Spe Jolly in set details and saying it can suprise a few standard checks like min speed rotom.

on the physdef set for zapdos i would mention rocky helmet in set details to punish the various physical moves zapdos is getting hit by like u-turn, bullet punch, and iron head though it comes at the expense of being more susceptible to being worn down by hazards. I would also slash static after pressure and mention its an option on non-defog sets for spreading para.

 

[Tinberz]

I think the crawdaunt analysis needs to be updated with a cb set. Its absolutely incredible rn and does a fantastic job at pressuring everything from bulky offense to stall.

On the volcarona analysis i think giga drain should be slashed with hp ground as well as bug buzz being slashed with it. bug buzz is chunking most waters not named keldeo or azu at +1 anyways, and fire blast/hp ground/bug buzz sets are v threatening for a lot of builds to face

for azu i think its worth considering putting the bd set above the cb set as cb has a much harder time putting in work nowadays with so many fat grasses around. also i think its worth mentioning a spread of 12 HP / 244 Atk / 252 Spe Jolly in set details and saying it can suprise a few standard checks like min speed rotom.

on the physdef set for zapdos i would mention rocky helmet in set details to punish the various physical moves zapdos is getting hit by like u-turn, bullet punch, and iron head though it comes at the expense of being more susceptible to being worn down by hazards. I would also slash static after pressure and mention its an option on non-defog sets for spreading para.

Personally, I have never found Band Craw good. Maybe I'm a poor user of it but I really don't see what it does better than standard LO Craw. It would be nice if you provided some calcs though.

I agree with Hailfall on Volcarona. I have found that its most useful set has been QD, Fire Blast, HP Ground, Bug Buzz. Like you said, Bug Buzz only really doesn't hit Azu and Keldeo but Azu's killing you anyway with Aqua Jet. I do know that most of the time Rona's set depends on the team but I can assure that that thing set gets the best coverage.

Jolly BD Azu is cool.

I really like the idea of Rocky Helmet PhysDef Zapdos too.

 

[HailFall]

Personally, I have never found Band Craw good. Maybe I'm a poor user of it but I really don't see what it does better than standard LO Craw. It would be nice if you provided some calcs though.

LO craw really struggles to set up and put in work vs offense unlike CB which just clicks a STAB and watches something drop. Being more threatening right off the bat improves the mu vs stall too with its ability to not have to get to +2 to beat physdef skarm (and everything else)

252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 153-182 (45.8 - 54.4%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 176-208 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Mega Venusaur: 125-148 (34.4 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Mega Venusaur: 174-206 (47.9 - 56.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

obviously there are many more than these two and just generally denting most things more but yeah. Its worth considering that craw has a very hard time actually setting up in this meta (even vs stall gotta worry about burn or toxic from quag, para or tox on chansey, ww on skarm, burn from sab, giga drain from amoong, etc). Even if it does manage to set up, plenty of things on offense like latios that normally revenge kill bd azumarill can revenge this too, so its not very hard to halt a sweep. i find it works best as something that comes in w/ voltturn support on slower more passive mons and will either kill or severely dent almost anything that comes in depending if you predicted correctly and then switch out (almost like a mini hoopa) and cb is the best for accomplishing that in this meta.

also i just realized adamant is slashed on craw. I think it should definitely be unslashed jolly is suuuper important to pressure offense as well. the set details dont even give a valid reason to run adamant other than the arbitrary "more power" without actually saying when that would be important. It does help vs stall to go ada w/ better rolls on skarm before boosting and stuff but i think its a really inferior option overall.

 

[Karxrida]

I noticed that Smeargle still has an OU analysis for its Suicide Lead set. I'm not exactly super knowledgeable about the meta atm, but I think it's safe to assume that it's not very good.

 

[Glue]

I think surf deserves a slash on mega latias's analysis, its good for hitting heatran, tyranitar, mega diancie and landorus-t, I feel like calm mind deserves to get a slash as well since it gives latias more attacking power and if you got a good match up it turns mega latias into a good wincon and I would give dragon pulse a slash since it is mega latias's stab move and hits things neutrally well vs waters/grounds/flying types and when calm mind sets up you beat latios and defensive garchomp.

 

[Magcargo]

Been playing with Hydreigon a bit and I believe Choice Specs deserves its own set or a slash with LO. Hydreigon's STABs have excellent neutral coverage and its typing grants it a resistance to Pursuit, SR neutrality, and Spikes immunity, making it a great Hit and Run attacker. Some key advantages this set has over LO is being much harder to wear down, which can be very useful against pokemon that Hydreigon is needed against to check such as Slowbro and Heatran, as well as being much stronger, allowing Hydreigon to OHKO Amoongus, Landorus-T, and Rotom-W without any prior damage for instance. Since most of Hydreigon's standard checks and counters can force it out anyways after it gets a kill or mispredicts, I believe that these advantages are more useful that LO's ability to switch moves currently.

 

[Eclipse]

I will also add on to Specs Hydreigon by saying that it's a great set that allows you to more easily afford running Timid over Modest so that you can outspeed threats such as Jolly Exca out of sand, +Speed Kyurems, and most importantly Adamant Medicham. You even slightly outdamage Modest LO by a bit, which makes Specs a very good option in this meta, especially given how nice STAB Dark Pulse/Draco always is, so definite support to slashing Specs while slashing Timid specifically for Specs Hydra.

 

[Kutscher]

I think surf deserves a slash on mega latias's analysis, its good for hitting heatran, tyranitar, mega diancie and landorus-t, I feel like calm mind deserves to get a slash as well since it gives latias more attacking power and if you got a good match up it turns mega latias into a good wincon and I would give dragon pulse a slash since it is mega latias's stab move and hits things neutrally well vs waters/grounds/flying types and when calm mind sets up you beat latios and defensive garchomp.

i think that CM+psyshock+surf mega latias should be it's own set, it's the best set right now since you can beat things that love switching on mega latias face like diancie, heatran, ttar(try to weaken this first of course), clefable and some others, becoming a nice win con, but i don't think that the speedy support set should be removed because it's a nice pivot that can switch on a lot of things like keldeo, torn-t, mega lop, eletrics, etc, and spread t-wave is nice to.

 

[HailFall]

I think surf deserves a slash on mega latias's analysis, its good for hitting heatran, tyranitar, mega diancie and landorus-t, I feel like calm mind deserves to get a slash as well since it gives latias more attacking power and if you got a good match up it turns mega latias into a good wincon and I would give dragon pulse a slash since it is mega latias's stab move and hits things neutrally well vs waters/grounds/flying types and when calm mind sets up you beat latios and defensive garchomp.

i think that CM+psyshock+surf mega latias should be it's own set, it's the best set right now since you can beat things that love switching on mega latias face like diancie, heatran, ttar(try to weaken this first of course), clefable and some others, becoming a nice win con, but i don't think that the speedy support set should be removed because it's a nice pivot that can switch on a lot of things like keldeo, torn-t, mega lop, eletrics, etc, and spread t-wave is nice to.

umm idk if u guys missed this but im already in the process of writing the analysis for cm mega latias, waiting for the 3rd qc check

 

[Alfalfa]

Reuniclus' revamp mentions Calm Mind Mega Sableye, Mega Altaria, Goodra, Mega Beedrill, Cofagrigus, and Guts Heracross, all of which are not common at all and should be removed from Reuniclus' analysis (either that, or revamp Reuniclus all together).

EDIT: Somebody please also remove Choice Specs Kyurem-B as a set (as in I need somebody to cache the changes I made in SCMS to solidify them)

 

[Glue]

umm idk if u guys missed this but im already in the process of writing the analysis for cm mega latias, waiting for the 3rd qc check

ah that is good to know, mega latias with calm mind is better for me is better than the current defensive set it has on mega lati's analysis

 

[Captain Two]

Just a small thing, but I feel like CB Weavile should AT LEAST be mentioned in other options in its analysis. Due to its high Speed and good attack stat, Weavile is a very effective revenge killer and will do slightly more damage with a Choice Band equipped than with a Life Orb, and will not wear itself down with recoil (although that is only a really small amount of course);

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 208-246 (59 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 179-213 (50.8 - 60.5%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Pursuit vs. 248 HP / 68 Def Latias: 374-444 (103 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Pursuit vs. 248 HP / 68 Def Latias: 328-385 (90.3 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 68 Def Mega Latias: 318-374 (87.6 - 103%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 68 Def Mega Latias: 276-328 (76 - 90.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 352-416 (91.1 - 107.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 307-361 (79.5 - 93.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 324-384 (80.1 - 95%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 283-335 (70 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Most of these are just small percentages and it obviously needs Stealth Rock support. I'd probably make it Icicle Crash / Knock Off / Low Kick / Pursuit l Ice Shard.

 

[Alfalfa]

Just a small thing, but I feel like CB Weavile should AT LEAST be mentioned in other options in its analysis. Due to its high Speed and good attack stat, Weavile is a very effective revenge killer and will do slightly more damage with a Choice Band equipped than with a Life Orb, and will not wear itself down with recoil (although that is only a really small amount of course);

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 208-246 (59 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 179-213 (50.8 - 60.5%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Pursuit vs. 248 HP / 68 Def Latias: 374-444 (103 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Pursuit vs. 248 HP / 68 Def Latias: 328-385 (90.3 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 68 Def Mega Latias: 318-374 (87.6 - 103%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 68 Def Mega Latias: 276-328 (76 - 90.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 352-416 (91.1 - 107.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 307-361 (79.5 - 93.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 324-384 (80.1 - 95%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 283-335 (70 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Most of these are just small percentages and it obviously needs Stealth Rock support. I'd probably make it Icicle Crash / Knock Off / Low Kick / Pursuit l Ice Shard.

Choice Band Weavile is inferior to Life Orb unless you are using that ABR stall team; the ability to switch moves is much more valuable than a 20% power boost in general (again, unless you are using Weavile on stall)

 

[p2]

choice band weavile is horrible and needs to die in a hole

 

[Snoo]

Reuniclus' revamp mentions Calm Mind Mega Sableye, Mega Altaria, Goodra, Mega Beedrill, Cofagrigus, and Guts Heracross, all of which are not common at all and should be removed from Reuniclus' analysis (either that, or revamp Reuniclus all together).

EDIT: Somebody please also remove Choice Specs Kyurem-B as a set (as in I need somebody to cache the changes I made in SCMS to solidify them)

Agreed.

I wouldn't mind seeing a Reuniclus revamp since it's analysis is outdated, if not, some edits to some degree. I'll also wouldn't mind seeing a Trick Room Set, since I feel the metagame focuses on speed.

Edit: After looking into it, Alfalfa and Martin. Is right about Choice Specs Kyurem-B, it should be removed, if not, moved to OO. Choice Specs is really a niche and is outclassed by Kyurem-B's other sets, as well as CS Kyurem itself.

:]

 

[Alfalfa]

Agreed to disagree.

I wouldn't mind seeing a Reuniclus revamp since it's analysis is outdated, if not, some edits to some degree. I'll also wouldn't mind seeing a Trick Room Set, since I feel the meta focuses on speed.

Here is where I disagree.

Although Choice Specs Kyurem-B is outclassed by Kyurem itself, it still have it's niche in the tier. If anything, it can be moved to other options. BTW, why would you want to remove it, when the writer worked so hard making an analysis for it in the first place?

That is not very reliable logic to be using to keep a set onsite. If the set is bad enough to consider removal, it is going to be removed.