Pokémon Diamond, Pearl & Platinum In-game Tier List Discussion

Unown UR —> F tier (Diamond and Pearl)

Self explanatory, only gets hidden power, weak stats, loses to basically everything of the same level

It was ranked in the platinum list but I guess they forgot it in DP
 

Don Honchkrorleone

Happy Qwilfish the nightmare
is a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
Can someone explain to me why Yanma is anywhere above E other that "durr i guess it has 125 Special Attack and is BL on Smogon so it must be good"? I recently used that piece of trash and let me tell: for someone that used unown in gsc and ditto in rb, Yanma is the worst Pokémon I've ever had the displeasure to use. I'm sure that whoever made this thread never used said bug

167898


Let's go to the facts one by one that "define" a Pokémon's viability in dissecting this rotten corpse:

  • Availability: Mid-game in Great Marsh, although only there with a very low chance and Great Marsh is a bitch to get Pokémon anyway.
  • Typing: Bug/Flying is one of the most reviled type combinations for an in-game mon. While almost nothing have Fire moves in Platinum, a lot of stuff tends to have Rock, Electric and Flying. Ice weakness means a huge portion of the game is harsh to it.
  • Stats: Whoever thought Yanmega had any usefulness looked by here, and so did I before deciding to use it, but BOOOOY. The Special Attack is good, but not with a bunch of weak-ass moves. .It's really not good. Defense is alrightish but bad with the typing. Special Defense is terrible. The Attack was enough to net some damage, not kills, with U-Turn. And that is Yanmega. Yanma is much worse in every aspect.
  • Movepool: Part of the thought that passed through the mind of whoever had the bad trip of thinking Yanma had any decency in-game must have come from STAB Bug Buzz and Air Slash, which, admittedly, were good when I got them. But I got them at level 53 and 57 respectively. Before that, you have the wonderful SONIC BOOM (caught at a stage where most stuff can only be 4HKOed at least), the ever useful Detect, Double Team and Supersonic. To relearn as a Yanma, you have Quick Attack and only. Your best bet before getting U-TURN (better as a TM before Canalave) are Air Cutter (didn't have enough shards, and frankly, if a Pokémon is Shard hunting reliant to do anything, then it isn't worth in first place) Silver Wind TM with very bad PP that prevents long battles and usage in areas with distant Pokémon Center, Ancient Power (same problem with Silver Wind but worse since no STAB) and Pursuit. My final set when I beat E4 was Bug Buzz/Air Slash/Ancient Power/U-Turn and let me say that getting to the first movies was a real pain. Even with Tinted Lens, the weak moves were just too weak. Also, in the TM department, you have Giga Drain (which I used on something else), Shadow Ball (same), Psychic (very late and doesn't help with anything else relevant), and Hyper Beam I guess. At least it works as a Defogger though!
  • Major Battles: Based on what you can have at that point (and my experience)
    • Maylene: Sonic Boom and Uproar didn't cut. It was useless, and I tried. Machoke has Rock Tomb and Lucario will kill you before you do. I only managed to kill Meditite with it because Supersonic managed to hit and hax was in my favor.
    • Wake: Same as above but with Silver Wind TM, which doesn't help that much. One may think that Ancient Power beats Gyarados but it doesn't. Yanmega was too weak to kill and was 2HKOed instead by Waterfall + Brine.
    • Cyrus (1st): Everything exists to kill it. I guess if you outspeed Sneasel you get a kill but otherwise don't. I didn't even try against him.
    • Byron: Magneton destroys it and so does Bastiodon with anything it has. ALTHOUGH even Steelix had Ice Fang, I managed to beat it with Tinted Lens Silver Wind.
    • Candice: Tried to kill Abomasnow with Silver Wind. You can guess the result. Everything else is too fast or too bulky for it.
    • Cyrus (2nd and 3rd): See Cyrus, but now everything is stronger and have better moves.
    • Other Galatic members: Didn't use Yanmega against any of them so can't say, probably badly, but I suppose you can beat Saturn if you get Air Cutter.
    • Volkner: Lol
    • Aaron: See this is where I wanted to say that Yanmega was great, but bear in mind that I refused to face the E4 before Yanmega got Bug Buzz, and his max level mon was a Drapion at Level 53. May you go there immediately while keeping Air Cutter, you won't have the same luck for sure. Also FYI his Yanmega has the good stabs at lv 49 probably because he's a cheating bastard.
    • Bertha: If you teach it a Grass move then it can probably dent Wishcash and maybe Golem/Rhyperior outside Sandstorm. I didn't try though, so can't say much.
    • Flint: See Volkner
    • Lucian: Same observation as Aaron. I lead it against Mr. Mime and used U-turn, which killed. It, even at level 57, was outsped by Alakazam and OHKOed by Psychic, but before it did manage to 2HKO Bronzong with Bug Buzz (the second was a crit after Bronzong used CM). If I was in a level or two below, i doubt it would have the same chance.
    • Cynthia: If you have Air Slash and Bug Buzz you can go after Roserade and maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe Spiritomb (didn't do the latter). Yanmega 2HKOed Roserade with Air Slash but was almost OHKOed by Sludge Bomb and would be had it been poisoned.
    • Rival: I mostly used it against Grotle/Torterra as when it was slower than Heracross and everything else on the team can murder it. It did fine enough.

Conclusion: Yanmega is sheer garbage and I do not recommend anyone using it unless they REALLY want to. As this list is supposed to represent a fast run of the game, my claim still stands. On mercy, I'd say put it in E but it's truly a terrible Pokémon enough to F. If anyone wants, I may give insights on the other Pokémon or on the runs I've made in DPPt, as I disagree with most of the placements in there.
 
Conclusion: Yanmega is sheer garbage and I do not recommend anyone using it unless they REALLY want to. As this list is supposed to represent a fast run of the game, my claim still stands. On mercy, I'd say put it in E but it's truly a terrible Pokémon enough to F. If anyone wants, I may give insights on the other Pokémon or on the runs I've made in DPPt, as I disagree with most of the placements in there.
Interesting. As I'm planning to start a Pt run this week, I'd love to hear your thoughts on it if possible.
 
I've been playing through Platinum and I've been using Swinub/Mamoswine for the last quarter of the game. I would like to contest its placement in the E rank, which I find to be too low, even given that it's not available until after the sixth gym. It seems to have extremely good matchups against most lategame trainers and its 130 base Attack stat + STAB EQ and Ice Shard cannot be overlooked.

Availability: Route 217 and Acuity Lakefront, between the sixth and seventh Gyms. You'll catch it as a Swinub, which in just a couple of levels evolves into Piloswine. With a Heart Scale handy you can get Mamoswine at level 36.

Typing: Ice/Ground gives it rather poor defensive typing in many cases but an immunity to Electric. However, Ice/Ground is very good offensively because of the great coverage options it offers.

Stats: 130 base Attack is extremely good, one of the best in the game. 80 Speed is a bit low but not horrible, especially considering that Mamoswine hits fairly hard with Ice Shard. Decent physical bulk, not so much special bulk.

Movepool: STAB Earthquake at level 40 + STAB Ice Shard right from the get-go is the main bread and butter. NeverMeltIce allows a boost to Ice Shard. Mamo can also learn Rock Slide/Stone Edge via TM. Mamoswine doesn't have a huge amount of options as to moves, but it doesn't need many considering its very good coverage.

https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Mamoswine_(Pokémon)/Generation_IV_learnset
Major Battles:
Candice: Okay matchup if you have Earthquake
Galactic Grunts: Combination of EQ/Ice Shard OHK/2HK most Galactic Grunt Pokemon
Cyrus: Good against Weavile and Crobat. Can 2HKO Honchkrow.
Volkner: Generally a good matchup, but watch out for Focus Blast on Raichu and Fire/Steel moves on Jolteon and Electivire (Mamoswine can generally take a hit from the latter two)
Aaron: Ice Shard allows 2HKOs on some of Aaron's Pokemon.
Bertha: See above.
Flint: Mamoswine is able to outspeed and OHKO several Pokemon on Flint's team with Earthquake.
Lucian: Not as good of a matchup as the other E4 members, but still usable.
Cynthia: Wins against Garchomp 1v1 in many instances. Also has good matchups against several other mons on her team.

Final Comment: Mamoswine definitely deserves at least D if not C. Despite its late appearance, it has many great matchups against the fairly packed last third of the game. If one is willing to wait until after the sixth gym to catch Swinub, they will be rewarded with a very powerful physical attacker with good type coverage.
 
Towards the end of my Platinum run, I decided to pick up a high-level wild Tentacruel right before the Pokemon League and was quite happy with its performance. It set up Toxic Spikes against everyone except Aaron, which helped weaken some important foes like Garchomp, Magmortar, and Milotic. It was also great for baiting out Earthquake, which helped Staraptor come in for free and stack attack drops with Intimidate. Most people would probably fill that last slot with Giratina or Azelf, but I was pretty happy with Tentacruel given how little I invested in it.

If anything, I think the gap between Giratina and Tentacruel is probably too wide currently. They're fighting for the same teamslot (namely, the one that gets freed up in the lategame when you're done using Bibarel), and in my opinion, poisoning 12/26 opponents in the Pokemon League is at least as valuable as brute-forcing things with a fat, moderately strong Pokemon like Giratina. Notably, it allowed me to deal poison damage to Espeon and Alakazam while shuffling between Houndoom and Tentacruel, eventually putting them in Sucker Punch KO range. It also bought me a lot of time to heal while fighting Milotic. Tentacruel isn't as good as Giratina, obviously, but not the the extent that Giratina should be A while Tentacruel should be E.
 
Hey! I recently started a run and I've been keeping some logs, figured I might as well dump them here and see what kind of activity it could bring since this thread is pretty dead lol.

Team I'm using: Turtwig, Magikarp, Zubat (Golbat), Ralts, and Magnemite

duh

Grotle (18): Set up 2 Curses on Zubat. It seems to prefer going for Bte / Leech Life over Toxic, but if it does the Pecha Berry you cop just before this fight clears that up for you. At +2, you 2hko Zubat and Purugly. Good matchup, although you’re a bit prone to hax and status vs Zubat.

Golbat (17): 2hko Zubat. Thanks to Inner Focus you can Screech on Purugly’s Fake Out and 2hko with Wing Attack. Great matchup.

Grotle (22): Get two Curses on Turtwig and spam Bite to win. At +2 you 2hko everything (not factoring Reflect) and Grass Knot doesn’t do a whole lot back thanks to resistances. You’ll need a potion but overall good mu.

Gyarados (20): Gyara’s achilles heel in this mu is Grass Knot; since Gyara is so heavy it consistently gets 2hkod. In return all it can really do is spam Bite. It can beat Turtwig, even in spite of Reflect, as its Grass Knot is too weak, but Cherrim will Leech + GK it to death, and Roserade will 2hko outright. Bad matchup

Golbat (21): Outspeed everything, ohko Turtwig and Roserade, 2hko Cherrim. Nothing can touch you. Fantastic mu.

Grotle (22): Curse twice and attempt to sweep, you’ll beat Bat but do negative damage to Skunk. Bad mu

Gyarados (21): Deals with Zubat fine but cannot do enough damage to Skuntank. Even after a Screech Tackle is a 4-5hko. Seeing as the Zubat here really isn’t a threat to anyone, I’m calling this a bad mu.

Golbat (23): Golbat can beat Skunk but it’ll need a Screech and a potion. Decent mu.

Grotle (26): Set up 1-2 Curses and sweep. There really isn’t a magic number here; 2 curses leave you outsped by Duskull, which can get you burned after your berry is used up, but without two Curses you fail to ohko Mismag. A sweep is very feasible, I did it multiple times, but it’ll require some luck and possibly a potion (luckily Wisp is hella inaccurate lmao). If you don’t go the sweep route, you beat Duskull and Haunter 1v1. Good mu.

Gyarados (25): Destroys, you ohko Duskull (so no berry even required) and Haunter. Mismag is 2hkod through berry, but Shadow Ball does pitiful damage and it has to hax with Confuse Ray or spdef drops to beat you. Great mu.

Golbat (25): 2hko everything. Duskull seems to prefer clicking Future Sight here so Rawst Berry isn’t entirely necessary. Haunter can’t do shit back, but Mismag outspeeds and 2hkos with Psybeam. Good mu, if you have Crobat by now it’d be even greater.

Kirlia (23): do you really think I should’ve tried?

Grotle (26): A Curse sweep IS feasible but you need a lot of potions and luck so it’s better to play it as a 1v1er. In that role it handles Buizel and Roselia pretty well, but loses to Ferno and Satan himself aka Staravia. Decent.

Gyarados (25): Just Dragon Rage and you 2hko everything, worst case Rose paralyzes you. Don’t even need Intimidate fodder lel. Great mu.

Golbat (25): 2hko everything with Wing Attack, Rose is ohkod obviously. Worst you have to fear is Staravia. Good mu.

Kirlia (25): Can’t Calm Mind sweep cuz you’re too slow and frail. 1v1 you’ll beat Buizel and Roselia, and might have a chance vs Staravia but I wouldn’t advise trying it. Decent

Torterra (32): Curse two times and ohko everything, no potion required. Great matchup.

Gyarados (30): Just spam EQ and win, you 2hko everything. Rock Tomb spam is annoying but not strong enough to stop you from sweeping with no item support. Great mu.

Crobat (30): Ohko Meditite, 2hko Machoke, and 2hko Lucario after Screech (or just spam Wing Attack but the former is cooler). Machoke can either Focus Energy or Rock Tomb, but if the latter happens you can just switch out to reset the speed drop. Good mu.

Gardevoir (31): After one CM you ohko everything. Even after a Rock Tomb drop you outspeed everything you would anyways. Great mu.

All 33

Torterra: Set up two Curses and sweep. Apparently Rock Tomb cannot miss cuz I consistently landed it vs Staravia, but even if you miss it shouldn’t be the end of the world as long as you hit it eventually. Everything else dies. You don’t even need to Curse sweep cuz you kill them all individually anyways. Great mu

Gyarados: Ice Fang Staravia and EQ everything else to ohko. Dodge Intimidate from Staravia or else everything will live on 1. Great mu

Crobat: Ohko Buizel and Rose, 2hko Star and Ferno. Great mu.

Gardevoir: Shock Wave Star and Bui, Psychic the other two. No CM necessary. Great mu.

Gyarados 34, everyone else 35

Torterra: A sweep here is difficult. In between finches, crits, having to heal whenever you get put in yellow to avoid getting killed by Brine, and minding Wood Hammer recoil, it’s doable, but you’ll be donating a ton of potions. 1v1ing it is easier, you need to dodge Intimidate but you beat Gyara with Rock Tomb into Wood Hammer, Floatzel at full (though recoil will kill you) and Quag obviously. Good mu, not cursing is more optimal.

Gyarados: Can beat everything 1v1 thanks but will require a fair bit of stat debuffing and a potion here or there. Dodge Intimidate from opposing Gyarados, Leer it down to -2, and 3hko with Bite. Leer Floatzel once and 2hko with EQ, same with Quag. Decent, needs a fair bit of support.

Crobat: Needs Screeches to put in work here, otherwise it does too little damage. Safest mu is Gyarados, you need misses from Floatzel to beat that even after a Screech. Quag can also cut it close but your speed keeps you ahead of it even at -2. Decent?

Gardevoir: Agan, don’t Calm Mind here, as taking damage from Gyara opens you up to getting revenge killed by Floatzel. You ohko everything with Shock Wave and Mind Plate Psychic. Worst case scenario is Floatzel crits with Crunch

Thoughts:

:Torterra: - Very impressive performance for a Grass starter. I know Magnus vouched for it in S a while back but I respectfully disagree, in my experience it couldn't just set up and sweep almost every fight the way an S rank should to me. It can do it in a lot of fights tho, decimating Maylene in particular, and usually only needing one potion or so in others, which isn't too terrible to ask for. A rank feels correct thus far.

:Gyarados: - Not performing as greatly as I hoped. Not only due you have to slog through the Magikarp period (I caught mine asap since I had a Turtwig, but I think no matter where you catch it it'll require significant grinding, as it's my understanding that getting a high level Magikarp is very unlikely), but even when you get Gyara it does poorly vs both Gardenia and Jupiter, making its effective waiting period even longer. After you escape Eterna it picks up right away, having EQ as a strong attack and doing well vs Fantina, Maylene, and both Barry fights. Wake is a notable speed bump though. Looking ahead I expect Volkner to be a roadblock as well, unless the game just gives me a Wacan berry or something. With these negatives in mind I think an argument to B can be made, but if Gyara does Gyara things against the E4 A rank should be solidified.

:Crobat: - Golbat is awesome, as not only do you skip Zubat's awful stats and have the potential to get a Crobat very early (mine didn't come til Veilstone but I probably missed some opportunity to raise its happiness), but also because of Screech, which is super useful to it in a lot of matchups. The good part is that you typically only need it for ace pokemon so it's not like you're totally reliant on it or anything. It decimated Gardenia, did very well vs Maylene and Fantina, and was the only mon on my team to have a chance vs Jupiter's Skuntank. With its Wake performance though, I fear the game might be getting to the point where 90 attack doesn't really cut it, especially when Crobat doesn't have very strong moves to begin with. Only time will tell, but I'm feeling B isn't out of the question here.

:Gardevoir: - Really impressing me. Obviously it's difficult getting to Gardevoir, as Ralts doesn't do that well at all, but the only major fights you're participating in between then are Fantina, which you weren't doing well against anyways, and Barry, which Kirlia actually does decently against. Once Garde comes in shit gets popping though, as Mind Plate Psychic just drops shit. I have a very top percentage Ralts, which probably explains why it's doing so well, but frankly I think even without the fantastic luck I had in getting it would dominate in the mus its had already. If things keep being this good I'd argue for A rank.

:Magnezone: - haven't used him in a major fight yet as I stopped just as I got to Celestic Town. In terms of getting it it wasn't too bad, since you get Tbolt right alongside it Magnemite is really strong against route trainers; mine has kinda subpar spatt ivs and was just barely missing kos. Once you have Magneton, just take a few mins to grind in Coronet and boom, instant 130 spatt. Looking forward to this guy, C seems a bit harsh to him but only time will tell.

Also here are my IVs for whoever's interested

Turtwig.png

(turtwig has 29 attack and defense ivs and 24 speed ivs)
Magikarp.png

(Magikarp has 6 attack ivs)
Golbat.png
Ralts.png
Magnemite Platinum.png

EDIT: IDK why I thought Jupiter's name was Venus but I fixed that lol
 
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With these negatives in mind I think an argument to B can be made, but if Gyara does Gyara things against the E4 A rank should be solidified.
I find Gyarados is fantastic vs the elite 4 in platinum, after you learn Dragon Dance (DD) + Waterfall. You smoke both Bertha and Flint with DD and Waterfall as you can comfortably set up on their lead Pokemon (Wishcash & Houndoom) and proceed to sweep. The only thing to keep in mind is that Houndoom can poison you with Sludge Bomb, and sometimes Flint will switch to Infernape to try and catch you with a speedy Tpunch if you don't DD.
Gyrados can also smash Lucian around a bit if you run Crunch Bite over Ice Fang, provided you don't lead with it as i think Mr.Mime has Tbolt. Girafarig is a good mon to sit on and DD up.

Finally, Gyarados monsters Cynthia. It's so good. I'm talking getting to +6 on Spiritomb and sweeping at level 41-42 good. Just have enough potions to keep it healthy enough to get there (Dark Pulse should be a 3HKO around Lv40, possibly 4HKO if you are closer to, or at, Lv50 - Silver Wind and Psychic tickle). You might also have to watch out for PP if you have already swept a few of the other elite four members (I usually pair Gyara with Houndoom since Houndoom roasts Aaron and Lucian), as well as Embargo on Spiritomb but I've found over a few playthroughs using Gyara that spiritomb doesn't opt for embargo that often.

Oh also Gyarados is terrible against Volkner, not really worth the bother. You might be able to get enough intimidate drops on Luxray to come in and get a DD boost if you play around, which could be a strategy if you struggle, but its not ideal.
 
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Gyrados can also smash Lucian around a bit if you run Crunch Bite over Ice Fang, provided you don't lead with it as i think Mr.Mime has Tbolt. Girafarig is a good mon to sit on and DD up.
DD / Waterfall / Icefang / Bite has always been the best movepool for Gyarados without any good Flying move stab. What was your last move ? The 30% Flinch part of Bite is so good in some match ups
 
DD / Waterfall / Icefang / Bite has always been the best movepool for Gyarados without any good Flying move stab. What was your last move ? The 30% Flinch part of Bite is so good in some match ups
Sometimes people run EQ over Ice Fang or Bite. It can be good for saving waterfall pp against Flint, and hits Cynthia's Milotic harder than Bite. I usually save my TM's and use the set you just mentioned though. :blobthumbsup:
 
DD / Waterfall / Icefang / Bite has always been the best movepool for Gyarados without any good Flying move stab. What was your last move ? The 30% Flinch part of Bite is so good in some match ups
I think this statement is true for HGSS, where Will has two Water-resistent pokemon, but in lieu of that for Lucien, I plan on having EQ as my fourth move of choice. Aside from E4, EQ is just a good move to have on Gyara ASAP, as it lacks a significantly strong attack until Aqua Tail at 35. EQ with 125 base attack is a nightmare for that portion of the game.
 
Hi there! First time poster, long time lurker. I've played through Platinum a few times and I'd also like to contest a couple of the placements here. I'll start with one that I strongly disagree with. Frankly, I don't know what the hell Shinx is doing in A Tier. Every time I use Luxray for a run, I always end up regretting it.

Availability: Shinx comes in on the second route, right after Sandgem Town. Nice.
Typing: Electric. Decent offensively and great defensively. You only really fear Ground types, which are somewhat uncommon.
Abilities: Intimidate is always good, and is recommended over the situational Rivalry.
Stats: A high Atk of 120, decent 95 SpAtk, and a workable 70 Spe (but you will notice it more later on,when your opponents use faster 'mons). With 80/79/79 defenses and Intimidate, Luxray can also take hits fairly well. Sounds alright, so where's the problem?
Movepool: Luxray has the curse of being a physically oriented Electric type before Wild Charge. His best STAB move(s) are Spark and Thunder Fang at 65 BP. Yikes. In theory, 95 SpAtk is good enough for Thunderbolt, but in practice it does about the same damage. While it doesn't hurt to run both for dealing with physical tanks, even non-STAB users like Porygon-Z and Magmortar (we'll get to those two) feel like they make better use of T-bolt. Outside of that you have Crunch and Iron Tail for coverage, which is okay. The last slot can be Thunderbolt, an HM, or HP if you get a good one.
Major Battles
Roark - Can't do much here, but your starter will probably solo it anyway. Although Intimidating Cranidos is definitely helpful.
Gardenia - Luxio's STAB is resisted. Bite can do a little damage, but you can't beat her Roserade.
Fantina - You can rip Duskull and Haunter to pieces with Bite, but beware of the former's Will-O-Wisp. Mismagius is less comfortable. While Bite does hurt, she's faster and at least 2HKOs with Shadow Ball. But if you manage to paralyze her with Spark, you just might win. (That's what happened with me, Luxio was my MVP in that battle.)
Maylene- Intimidate is super helpful here, but watch out for Lucario's Bone Rush. Overall decent as a Luxio, and good if you have a fully evolved Luxray.
Crasher Wake - Avoid Quagmire Quagsire, but otherwise an easy win.
Byron - This is when Luxray begins to fall off, hard. Electric vs Steel sounds good, but let's see here.... Luxray can't touch Magneton, who has Tri Attack to beat you with. Steelix is obviously a no-go, and Luxray can't dent the beefy Bastiodon.
Candice - Sneasel is crippled by Intimidate and slapped by Iron Miss Tail if it lands. Otherwise Piloswine KOs with Earthquake, Obamasnow (I'm sorry) Abomasnow hits back hard (although Intimidate helps), and Froslass has Snow Cloak+ Double Team shennanigans to dodge your coverage moves.
Galactic -Mars and Jupiter are decent matchups, with Zu/Golbat being easy pickings. Saturn's Toxicroak is faster and hits hard with Mud Bomb and STABs. Cryus is a mixed bag. Houndoom is faster and 2HKOs you. Gyarados is an easy win, provided you don't get flinch-haxed. Honchkrow and Crobat are hit super-effectively by y0ur STABS, but they won't be OHKO'd. They are also faster and pack Night Slash or Confuse Ray to mess you up. Weavile is slapped by Iron Tail, but like Houndoom is faster and also flinchy.
Volkner - Can go either way, as expected. You might have the advantage over his Luxray (especially if yours is female) since he has Rivalry. I would stay away from Elective though, as he hit can hit hard with Giga Impact or burn you with Fire Punch.
Aaron - Thunder Fangt/bolt cannot OHKO Yanmega who is faster, has Double Team, and hits hard with Bug Buzz. Vespiquen, like Yanmega, is weak to Electric but is too beefy and can heal or buff her defenses. Pressure is also a pain in the ass. Scizor is possibly winnable with Intimidate, but not without. Heracross is too powerful, and your STABs are too weak. Drapion is too beefy.
Bertha - No.
Flint - Theoretically neutral. But again, Luxray's STABs are too weak while all of his pokemon 2HKO you and are faster (except Flareon, who still burns you to a crisp).
Lucian - Slightly better than Flint since 3 of his members are weak to Crunch, but still unimpressive. Mr.Mime can put up Reflect. Espeon and Alakazam are too powerful. (althought you can revenge kill since they are frail and weak to Crunch). Bronzong is too beefy. Gallade is again potentially winnable with its low defense, but still hits hard and is faster. If Gallade is not Intimidated, he's too powerful.
Cynthia - Spiritomb is annoying, but possibly doable thanks to his low HP. Roserade resists your STABs and 2HKOs you. Milotic is weak to electric, but is quite beefy so in practice it eats your weak hits while firing off Surf. Lucario is faster and hits hard, and Intimidate won't save you from Aura Sphere. Togekiss is winnable. Garchomp is obviously a no-go, but Intimidate is super helpful for your teammates.

All in all, Luxray just ends up being dissappointing in the late game, which as mentioned by others, is quite backloaded in terms of major battles and story. His high attack lets him dominate early- mid game, but he falls off when your oppenents start getting stronger moves while you're stuck with Spark/T-Fang. To me, Luxray feels like C Tier because he's very strong early-mid game, but falls off hard later on due to being slow and lack of a strong STAB, ending up with an overall average performance. I still wouldn't be against using him for a while because as I've said, he really did well up until around Canalave. So I can also see an argument for B Tier. But he absolutely does not belong in the same league as Gallade and Garchomp.

***

Second, I also strongly agree with Infernape's argument for moving Porygon up. Contrary to Luxray, Porygon-Z was an absolute beast when I tried it out.
Availability: Mid-game via gift in Veilstone City, and you should have already picked up the Up-grade at the Galactic building in Eterna. You get the Dubious Disc at Glactic HQ, right when Porygon 2 might fall of a tiny bit.
Typing: Normal. Only one weakness to Fighting which is cool. Normal doesn't hit anything super-effectively....usually. But with Porygon, that's not quite the case.
Abilities: Download or Trace, both are situational at best. HOWEVER, if you get Trace, that will turn into Adaptability as a fully evolved Porygon-Z. Adaptability doubles the power of your STAB moves (as opposed to 1.5x), essentialy making them do normal damage if resisted, and super effective against everything else
Stats: Porygon is okay, Porygon 2 is good, and Porygon-Z is just....damn. 85/70/70 defenses, which are good enough. 90 Speed which is okay. And last but not least, a monstorous 135 SpAtk. Combine that with Adaptability, and this thing is just...dirty, man. It's just not fair how much damage it does.
Movepool: Similar to RBY Clefable, Porygon-Z is a pokemon that will eat up a lot of TMs in your run, but it can learn so many that you can build a good moveset without hurting your teammates. However, you will notice the lack of a STAB move until Tri Attack at level 51, or Swift via Snowpoint tutor. Or you can get the powerful, but unreliable Hyper Beam at the Veilstone Dpt. Store. Porygon(2) does just fine without it though. Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball, Ice Beam, Psychic, and Signal Beam are some great coverage options. You also learn Discharge at level 40 and Dark Pulse via TM, if your teammates want Thunderbolt and/or Shadow Ball. And if you want, you can sacrifice a coverage slot for Agility or Nasty Plot, making Cybergoose even more scary. Peace was never an option.
Major Battles:
Maylene - You can hit hard with Psybeam, but you'll likely get KO'd after that. It wouldn't hurt to wait on getting Porygon until after this fight.
Crasher Wake - Gyarados hits hard with Waterfall, but you can hit back harder if you tought Porygon Shock Wave. Quagsire has a low SpDef for you to abuse, and he can't do much back. Floatzle is hit hard by Shock Wave, but he is also decently strong and faster.
Byron - Magneton and Steelix sadly resist your STAB and coverage moves, and you don't have Adaptability yet. Bastiodon isalso quite beefy.
Candice - Sneasel and Abomasnow are weak to Signal Beam, but watch out for Abomasnow's Focus Miss Blast. Piloswine is somewhat even, you're faster but watch out for EQ and Avalanche. Squishy Froslass is hit hard by Shadow Ball, but Snow Cloak + Double Team is annoying as always.
Galactic - Golbat are death fodder to Psybeam/Psychic/Thunderbolt, and Bronzor takes heavy damage while not doing much back. Purugly and Skuntank are somewhat even, but beware of Night Slash flinches. If you can take a hit from Toxicroak, you OHKO it with Psybeam/chic. Once you get through Galactic HQ, you can finally get the monster that is Porygon-Z. If you teach this thing Hyper Beam it will vaporize all targets, but remember that you can't move for a turn.
Galactic 2 - As Porygon-Z you are nigh unstoppable. Golbats KO'd by Electric/Psychic coverage. Bronzor are too weak while zap them to death. If you have Hyper Beam the rodents get vaporized. Swift will do the same, only it'll take a little longer. Cyrus will also get wrecked. Gyarados gets fried by T-bolt/Discharge before it can do anything. everything else gets vaporized by Hyper Beam, though keep in mind that Crobat, Weavile, and possibly Houndoom are faster. Without HB you should still be fine. Fry the fliers. Weavile is hit hard by Signal Beam, but still potentially dangerous.
Volkner - Jolteon is stuck with the weak Charge Beam. Raichu has Focus Blast so be careful. Luxray is too weak to be a threat (Porygon family is genderless, so Rivalry is irrelevant) while you fire off Swift/Hyper Beam or Tri Attack , which possible now. Electivire can hit hard and is faster, so watch out. Although Hyper Beam is probably an OHKO.
Aaron - By now you should have Tri Attack, so you can replace Hyper Beam if you want something more reliable. Or you can simply run both with 2 coverage moves.Yanmega and Vespiquen get fried by electricity. Scizor gets 2HKO'd, and he doesn't have Technician or Bullet Punch. Heracross is tempting with Psychic, but I wouldn't risk it. You hit Drapion on his weak special side, and his attack isn't high enough to ber very threatening.
Bertha - Whiscash is somewhat beefy, but he's no threat. Gliscor and Golem have low special defense. Moto Moto Hippowdon is slow and hit hard by Ice coverage or STAdaptability. Rhyperior is on the iffy side thanks to that nasty Rock Wrecker. I wouldn't try it if Sandstorm is up.
Flint - Your speed EVs might give you an advantage over Houndoom, who is otherwise tied with you. Flareon is slow but can hit hard with Giga Impact, but it shouldn't outright KO you, and now you have a free turn. Rapidash gets vaporized, but watch out for Sunny Day +Flare Blitz. He's also faster than you. Magmortar hits hard, but you hit harder and faster. Stay away from Infernape.
Lucian - If you have Shadow Ball/ Dark Pulse, this is somewhat favorable, but less so if Mr.Mime puts up Light Screen so kill him fast. Espeon is somewhat even, but he's faster than you. You can dent Alakazam, but you lose if Focus Blast lands. Bronzong can annoy you with Calm Mind, but it will only delay you. Gallade is winnable if you have Shadow Ball, since he doesn't have Close Combat. But Drain Punch still hurts. Again though, STAdaptability Hyper Beam vaporizes just about everything, dealing even more damage than Shadow Ball.
Cynthia - Your normal STAB is useless against Spiritomb. Coverage moves should be enough, but you might wanna save Porygon-Z for later. You speed tie with Roserade, and win with Ice Beam/Psychic or Hyper Beam. Milotic is 2HKO'd by Thunderbolt, but watch out for Mirror Coat. Togekiss hits hard with Aura Sphere, but you again hit harder and faster. Stay away from Lucario. And last but not least, the mighty 'Chomp gets OHKO'd by Ice Beam or possibly Hyper Beam depending on your level. Otherwise though, she will do her usual Garchomp things.

And so, I hereby nominate Porygon-Z for A Tier. While it does take a bit of work and resources, the cyber goose will more than make up for it. Even if you forget to check the ability and get stuck with Download, Porygon-Z hits incredibly hard, takes hits okay, and is surpsingly fast to boot. If you do get Adaptability, very few pokemon can seriously threaten you. However, it does take some time and effort to get this monstrosity. Porygon-Z also suffers a bit from 4 moveslot syndrome, as some matchups can be better or worse depending on your choices. For these reasons, I can also see an argument for B Tier. But it is defintely much better than anything in C Tier.

***
Finally, placing Magmortar and Glaceon in C and E seems a bit underselling. I've used Magmortar before and I had fun with it. He felt simalar to Houndoom, being slightly slower but noticably more powerful. And while Glaceon comes late and will likely require a bit of grinding (though it doesn't seem too bad thanks to vs seeker), that 130 SpAtk with good STAB and defenses is quite tempting. I highly doubt Glaceon will get any higher than D, but it certainly looks better than the likes of Chimecho and Pachurisu, who are also in E. I happen to be playing Platinum right now (I'm at Fuego Ironworks), and I have a Modest Eevee from Hearthome in the PC. So I'll test these two out and report back!

Or I'll get busy with work and classes (although they are both from home right now thanks to You-Know-What) and forget about this thread. Either way, thanks for reading and stay safe out there!
 
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**UPDATE**

I made an impulsive decision to hatch Riley's egg. After a couple of SRs I now have a naive Riolu. I already have Gallade, but I am kinda curious. Hmm...

**UPDATE 2**

Yeah, nevermind. I'm already going to have to take a bit for Glaceon. Between hatching,evolving, and grinding, Riolu just takes too long. He has good stats, typing, and moves so I can see him being fun to use. But if you are looking for an efficient run with Lucario, you're better off playing Black/White 2. E Tier seems about right, as he still feels like a step above the likes of Unown or the rare honey tree 'mons.
 
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Comin' at ya with another update, just beat Candice. I didn't think Glaceon would be all that going in, but I must say...I'm quite impressed so far!

So instead of lugging Eevee around until route 217, I had him in the PC, then brought him out at around Canalave and slapped the exp sharre on him. I also left a couple of trainers unbattled. With Ice Beam locked away by Rock Climb, I took a quick detour to Veilstone for the Blizzard TM to take advantage of the weather. After evolving, Glaceon proceeded to terrorize Northern Sinnoh with his nuke Blizzard attack. Low PP wasn't too much of a hassle with coverage moves and the little resting spot. Glaceon was level 39 when I reached Snowpoint, and grew to 40 from the gym trainers.

After beating Candice's Sneasel with Maggie, I decided on impulse to see how Glaceon would do, and... by Arceus, the crazy son of a bitch did it. It wasn't 100% clean, but he solo'd the rest of the fight. I used Abomasnow's Snow Warning against it and 2HKO'd with Blzzard, although he almost KO'd back with Focus Blast. After healing, Glaceon OHKO'd Piloswine and 2HKO'd Froslass with Shadow Ball. Froslass' own Shadow Ball was too weak to KO first.

We'll see how he does later but so far, Glaceon doesn't feel like an E Tier 'mon at all. Current moveset is Ice Shard, Water Pulse, Shadow Ball, and Blizzard. Now that it won't be snowing, Blizzard is getting replaced by Ice Beam for reliability.
 
Final update! After completing the main game, I am convinced that Magmar and Glaceon were initially ranked too low. Let's start with Maggie.

Availability: Magmar is caught at Fuego Ironworks at level 28-29. While it's somewhat late, this is right around the time when you start wanting a Fire type, so it works out. Depending on your RNG luck, Magmar can be somewhat annoying to catch (30% encounter rate my ass), but it shouldn't take too long. You should also have the Magmarizer from Route 214, so you can evolve right away if you like. You also conveniently get the Flamethrower TM in this area.
Ability: Flame Body. Always helpful when it procs, but Maggie's defense is too low to really abuse it.
Stats: A decent 95 SpDef and Atk, a workable 83 Spe, and a mighty 125 SpAtk.
Movepool: Fire STAB and Thunderbolt alone are great. But you also have Psychic (although this would require some gambling) , Focus Blast, and even physical options like Brick Break, Rock Slide, and EQ. Perhaps most notably, you have the tools for a Sunny Day + Solarbeam combo, effectively eliminating your Water weakness. But keep in mind how this may affect your teammates. If you have other teammates who want the Flamethrower TM (unlikely), Fire Punch and Lava Plume are just fine until level 41/43(as Magmortar), when you get it naturally.
Major Battles:
Byron - Even if you choose not to evolve, Magmar does well here. Magneton and Steelix are OHKO'd by your STAB. Bastiodon on the other hand, is too beefy and hits back with Stone Edge or Metal Burst.
Candice - She's not the only one who's hot here. Get it? Cause Maggie is a Fire type and, ya know....shutting up.
Galactic - Burn the Bronzies (haha League of Legends is trash) and zap the bats. Toxicroak is faster and hits hard, but you can potentially KO back with Psychic. You beat Skuntank with your better stats, but Purugly has Thick Fat. Cyrus is overall a great matchup. You can OHKO Houndoom with Focus Blast or 2HKO with Brick Break, but he is likely faster and flinchy with Dark Pulse. Gyarados looks bad, but in practice you're faster and KO with T-bolt. Zap the fliers and melt the weasel. Just watch out for flinchhax from Weavile.
Volkner - You overall win for the most part with your better stats. But Electivire hits hard, has decent SpDef, and is probably faster than you. You win if Flame Body procs, though.
Aaron - Ever roasted bugs over a campfire? Mmmm, crunchy.
Bertha - You may be able to set up for Sunnybeam on Whiscash, but Hippowdon's Sand Stream will shut you down. I'd leave this to someone else.
Flint - Obviously neutral, depending on your level. You nail Infernape with Psychic, but he is faster and has Earthquake. If you're running a mixed set, you may be able to hit his own Magmortar on his weaker physical side.
Lucian - Mr. Mime can complicate things with Light Screen. Melt the Bronzong. Gallade tanks your STAB and KOs back with Stone Edge. Espeon and Alakazam hit harder and faster than you.
Cynthia - Spiritomb is 2HKO'd and can't hit you back hard enough. Roserade and Lucario are OHKO'd, but watch out for the latter's Stone Edge. You hit Milotic with T-bolt, but she hits harder. Togekiss is a win if you're high leveled enough to sponge Water Pulse. Sunny Day may help here too. Garchomp is a big fat NOPE.
Additional Comments: Going for a +Speed nature can take more time, but it'll help you outrun some key opponents like Houndoom, Lucario, and Electivire. If not, Maggie should still be okay.

Burny Sanders was a lot of fun to use. He is less squishy, hits harder, and has a wider movepool than Houndoom. However, Houndoom is faster, comes earlier, and has that Dark typing for one of the hardest bosses, Lucian. So I think Magmar(trade) deserves a rise to B Tier from C.

***

I was somewhat anxious to try Glaceon, but in the end I was pleasantly surprised by how well he did. Frozone ended up being a powerhouse on my team.

Availability: Eevee is given to you by Bebe in Hearthome City. However, you can't evolve it into Glaceon until you reach Route 217, much later. Rather than lugging Eevee around, I'd recommend stashing him in the PC, then bringing him out around Canalave and giving him an EXP share for a bit. Skip a couple of trainers for him if you like. By the time you evolve, grinding should be easy if you have the tools Glaceon needs (we'll get to that)
Stats: Glaceon's main selling point is a beastly 130 base SpAtk. With strong STAB moves, Glaceon packs quite a punch. 110/95 defenses are great for taking neutral hits, but they won't save you from strong SE STABs. Unfortunately, Glaceon is cursed with being a slow Ice type. If only he had Espeon's speed.
Ability: Snow Cloak. Very nice in the snowy area where you get it. But unless you run Hail, it's negligible everywhere else.
Movepool: Outside of priority Ice Shard, Glaceon has a TERRIBLE level up moveset. From TMs you get your good Ice STABs, Shadow Ball, Iron Tail, and Water Pulse. The latter is not really helpful for bosses, but I was glad to have it while grinding a bit on Mt. Coronet and Victory Road. Nobody wants WP anyway, so you'd might as well slap it on Glaceon. Another option is a Hail+Blizzard combo, but that requires a setup.
Major Battles:
Candice - Since Ice Beam is locked away by Rock Climb, I'd recommend grabbing Blizzard from Veilstone to use Candice's weather against her. Sneasel is hit hard by Blizzard despite resisting. You're faster than Piloswine and OHKO with Blizzard. Abomasnow is a 2HKO, but she almost KOs you back with Focus Blast, so be careful. Froslass can potentially annoy you with her dodginess, but you have your own Snow Cloak, and your Shadow Ball is stronger than hers.
Galactic - Bronzor and Golbat are easy pickings, but the aces are more shaky. Purugly's CHONK Thick Fat makes her beefy against you, Toxicroak has deadly SE STAB , and Skuntank has Flamethrower (but not the SpAtk to back it up). Cyrus is alright. The fliers are OHKO'd by your STAB, and I was actually able to outrun Honchkrow with my speed EVs. Weavile can be muscled through with raw power alone, but watch out for flinchhax. The Sneasel family can also be slapped by Iron Tail if you run it. Gyarados has a high SpDef to sponge your hits a little better. Stay away from the dog.
Volkner - Jolteon's weak Iron Tail can't break your high defense, you hit back harder. Raichu is squishy, but watch out for a 2HKO from Focus Blast. Luxray has Rivalry and Fire Fang, but you should be able to outrun with your speed EVs and beat him first. Electivire is a no-go, he has Fire Punch.
Aaron - Yanmega and Vespiquen are easy OHKO's. You hit Drapion on his low special side, and his attacks are too weak to get you first. Avoid Scizor and Heracross.
Bertha - Should be a sweep. Whiscash is beefy, but not beefy enough. Sandstorm won't save Golem and Rhyperior from your deadly Ice moves.
Flint - No.
Lucian - is winnable, but shaky. You 2HKO his team with Shadow Ball outside of Bronzong, but they also hit very hard and are faster than you. You just might be able to barely beat Espeon if you're on par in levels. Alakazam is similar, but you lose if Focus Blast lands. Mr. Mime's Light Screen makes things more difficult. Bronzing is beefy, and Gallade is just too dangerous with Fighting STAB.
Cynthia - Awaken, Dragon slayer! After two previous rough battles, it's payback time. Avoid Milotic and especially Lucario. Outside of that, Cynthia's team fears your lethal Ice STAB. Spiritomb is too weak to be a threat. Roserade and Togekiss hit hard with Sludge Bomb and Aura Sphere, but you KO right back with Ice Beam. Last but not least: Garchomp, the nastiest opponent in this game, is frozen in its tracks. Even with Flamethrower, the 'Chomp doesn't stand a chance.
Additional Comments: By the time I reached the Ice Rock, Eevee was level 33 just from the Exp Share that I gave him in Canalave. With your lethal Blizzard, grinding up to level ~38-39 from the trainers here shouldn't take too long. You can use the vs seeker too if you like. Also, I did have Frozone hold a Quick Claw at first, but I removed it because it only proc'd against opponents he already outran. Go figure.

Because of how well Glaceon performed, I was almost tempted to nominate it for C Tier. But while Glaceon has the most raw power of any Ice type in Platinum, he is also the slowest, requires more resources, and has the shallowest movepool. Glaceon is outclassed as an Ice type by Weavile and Mammoswine (wait, why is Swinub in E tier?!), who are faster and have better movepools. Glaceon is also outclassed as an Eeveelution by Vaporeon, Jolteon, and Espeon, who are faster (other than the former) and obtainable earlier. And I would not recommend it at all if the somewhat contested Ice Beam and Shadow Ball TMs are taken. Still, Glaceon felt like a big step above E Tier, which contains Pachurisu and the extremely tedious Lucario. Overall, I think Glaceon deserves to rise to D Tier. It took a bit of grinding, but Frozone was a lot of fun and I don't regret using him at all. If you want an Ice type, have the aforementioned TMs, and are tired of Weavile and Mammoswine, then Glaceon just might be for you!

Well, that will probably be all you hear from me, for a while. I might report the results when I try something else at some time (there are a couple of other placements that I find questionable, such as Leafeon and Swinub). But for now, my attention not dedicated to work and college will most likely be put into Animal Crossing and the new Kingdom Hearts. Stay safe, everyone!
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
Glaceon is outclassed as an Ice type by Weavile and Mammoswine (wait, why is Swinub in E tier?!), who are faster and have better movepools. Glaceon is also outclassed as an Eeveelution by Vaporeon, Jolteon, and Espeon, who are faster (other than the former) and obtainable earlier.
I am not a DPPt player myself, but I still should point out that Pokemon get tiered on their own merits, thus they do not get tiered lower because something is better than them
 
I am not a DPPt player myself, but I still should point out that Pokemon get tiered on their own merits, thus they do not get tiered lower because something is better than them
Of course, not being as good as Weavile and Mamoswine is far from the only reason I believe Glaceon should be D. I came to this conclusion because like I said, Glaceon is strong but comes late, is slow, and eats up a lot of time and resources.

I believe Magmortar is B because it's good, but comes a little late and needs to be traded, making it a bit harder to reach its full potential.

I believe that a Pokémon should never be lower or considered "bad" just because something else is better or more efficient. By that logic, everything besides Infernape, Staraptor, Gyarados or whatever would be S while everything else is shoved to F.

However, I still think that a comparison is always helpful when you're trying to get a point across.
 
Casual observer of these threads; just realized you could get Metal Coats off of Bronzor as early as Route 211 or Wayward Cave. Idk if that motivates anyone to try again with Onix or not, maybe I will if no one else does.
 

Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Casual observer of these threads; just realized you could get Metal Coats off of Bronzor as early as Route 211 or Wayward Cave. Idk if that motivates anyone to try again with Onix or not, maybe I will if no one else does.
5% chance of the item being held would at best make Onix (Trade) a D. And the potential farm is probably still too much of an ask.
 
Would using Compound Eyes on Dustox to make it 20% odds move the needle at all?
Compound Eyes is only available on Dustox as a Hidden Ability from Gen V onwards, so no.

I actually have some insight on early Steelix, since I used one in a Platinum mono-Steel run wayy back. It's definitely better than lugging Onix to Iron Island, but I don't think it's better than just catching a Steelix on Iron Island.

Virtually all the matchups you gain over Iron Island Steelix are bad
  • Gardenia crushes you, because Grass Knot is 120 BP and your best attack is non-STAB Rock Tomb (or ~70 BP Return, if you somehow didn't have a better candidate for the TM).
  • Eterna Jupiter is pretty good! You likely can't solo her with Steelix but taking so little damage from Skuntank is a rare and valuable trait for a Pokemon to have in DPPt and you at least have enough time to debuff it with Screech and Rock Tomb for a teammate.
  • Fantina's whole team is immune to Ground, so it's a slow and tedious battle using weak Rock attacks. You can sorta wall Haunter, but it's not the threatening part of the battle, so that doesn't really win it any points for viability. Duskull will just burn Steelix, rendering it totally useless, while Mismagius can comfortably trade hits and take Steelix out.
  • Maylene is surprisingly not a total disaster because of Steelix's titanic Defense and access to Ground STAB for Lucario, but you'll be hard-pressed to sweep the whole team.
  • Wake is horrible even with Heart Scale Thunder Fang.

I can't imagine DP is any better (no early EQ likely makes it worse), although Fantina's Drifblim is another Pokemon which Steelix can probably 1v1 if you don't get absurdly unlucky with Minimize/Ominous Wind.
 
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Do you remember what you had on your team? I've thought about doing a Platinum mono-Steel run myself
My final team was:
Empoleon, Bronzong, Magnezone, Scizor, Lucario, Probopass (I ditched Steelix towards the end lol)

I believe the only other two choices are Bastiodon (need to reset for an even trainer ID if you want Armor Fossils to show up in the Underground) and Wormadam-Trash.

One of my favourite monotype runs for sure! I think I ended up with a sort of rain team vibe
 
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A couple things from skimming through the DP listings:-

- Geodude (no trade) is listed in both D tier and E tier

- Is there a reason Cranidos is listed as "Diamond only"? It's not done for any other version exclusives

- This is a very minor point, I'm wondering what warrants Buneary in D-tier? It's got a bit of utility for sure, but the starting 0 happiness putting evolution way off should surely make it nigh-unusable, and surely not better than Stunky or Wingull. Has anyone used it? I know it's the difference between calling it crap and rubbish but it did stick out to me
 

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