NU Viability Rankings

[Tangelo]

I don't think Meloetta should rise, either. It's strong and versatile, sure, but there exists counterplay to nearly all of its sets. The worst offenders I could see are Specs and Z-sets, which, at worst, get a kill before being pursuit trapped by your Sneasel/Drapion/Spiritomb. Scarf can be blocked by special walls like Slowking, and Sub-CM variants are strapped for moveslots, always leaving them walled by a specific threat (if you run DG for Spiritomb, you're walled by Slowking; if you change it to Sball, you now get walled by Dark Types). Compare this to Sneasel and Cofag, who have much more limited counterplay (Sneasel by virtue of its insane dual-stab coverage and high speed and coverage limiting the ability to revenge-kill, and Cofag by virtue of its insane bulk, allowing it to set up easily late-game and sweep). Meloetta just doesn't have the same constricting effects on the tier, in my opinion.

I disagree with this, though the only set I'd argue is S is specs. In general the argument I see all the time is that this mon is pursuit trapped easily, so it is less of a threat than the Cofag/Sneasel. There's lots of issues with this. The only time when Meloetta is safely trapped is when it is locked into Psychic. When it is locked into Hyper Voice, the 2 significant Pursuiters (Sneasel and sometimes Drapion who speed ties w/o Scarf) have a 50/50 decision as neither can KO with Pursuit without ~30% of prior damage (>50% if Scarf Drapion). Neither can switch in safely. Hyper Voice immunities are limited to Cofag, Mismagius, and Rotom, of which the latter 2 are fairly rare. Resists like Steelix and AV Slowking are 3HKO'd (40% chance to 2HKO with SR + 1 Spikes), and can't actually win 1v1. Spiritomb prevent spamming STABS, but Pursuit sets are awful EXCEPT for trapping Meloetta and are uncommon as a result and it is still caught by coverage. So rather than easily pursuit trapped, Meloetta is situationally trapped by 2 mons and walled by 1 (and Sableye). Rather than it being the worst case, it is often the best case if Meloetta gets a kill and is trapped, leaving a mon often locked into Pursuit. As far as other sets are concerned, SubCM DG beats Slowking and every other defensive answer except for Steelix.

Comparing this to Sneasel, we have a rock weak mon that has trouble coming in for free with several viable defensive answers (Colbur Slowbro, Vaporeon, Aromatisse, Emboar, and more niche ones like Poliwrath and Mawile). This is not to say Sneasel is bad, it is still a clear S rank threat, but in a similar fashion, Meloetta's shortcomings are being insanely inflated.

A large reason as to why Pursuit is even seeing that much use in the first place is a result of Meloetta's impact on the metagame. It's also one of the few switchins to Cofag. So, in other words, Meloetta belongs in S.

 

[Finchinator]

Two Pokemon that are currently unranked stand out to me as things that clearly are viable in the current metagame: Probopass and Kabutops. While neither of these Pokemon are top tier -- hell, both have been better in past generations and there is no denying this -- it is clear that they have some place in the current metagame. Probopass is able to set up Stealth Rock while trapping steels (often with the help of Magnet Rise). While it is fairly weak on the offensive side of the spectrum, it does what it needs to and it does pack a solid defensive presence, which is where a lot of the appeal lies. On top of this, Probopass saw three uses in week 1 of NUPL, which in itself might be coincidental or not too indicative of much, but it has gotten numerous players/users of significance at least talking about its presence in the tier and it clearly has more of a place on these rankings than some of the things currently ranked (looking at you, Lurantis). As for Kabutops, I do not think this should be particularly surprising to anyone. It is and always will be a viable spinning option in the neverused metagame. It was quite good last generation and while it certainly has lost some steam, it can still utilize Z moves and even a Choice Scarf to decent success (although the latter is admittedly weak as shit). I think that it being a rapid spinner that is not a bad Pokemon in itself merits ranking, but it clearly does bring multiple things to the table on top of that, so I think this is relatively clear cut. As for where both of these should be placed, I could not see much higher than C+/B-, but perhaps even lower since they are not currently there. Regardless, they should be somewhere and that's the point I'm trying to make here, so ya.

 

[quziel]

Approved Kiyo (NUTL/Mod)

C => B

Approved Kiyo (NUTL/Mod)

Shell smash is a ridiculously consistent wincon, it has disgusting bulk, and typing lets it laugh at rotom-cut, one of offense's more annoying mons. After a shell smash you outspeed sceptile, aka the second fastest viable mon, and gives you enough power to do dumb stuff like OHKO AV slowking with rocks up. Not really what more to say, but the mon's super useful on HO and Offense, and compresses a lot of roles they need.

C => B

Aurora veil is op, rapid spin is good, and its fast. There's a reason its on every single HO squad most people encounter, and that is aurora veil, literally only good because slush rush makes it reliable, and aurora veil is really OP.

A => A-

Fact is that its not really a fire check anymore with Houndoom getting really good usage, and slowbro honestly outclasses it as a CM user, thanks water/psychic being very well suited for tanking fighting/ground/generic hits. Also, Slowbro, unlike Slowking, isn't murdered by S-Rank god Sneasel. Basically, AV isn't that good, as it doesn't beat Fires (Houndoom), and offensive waters aren't that prevelant atm, or beat it (Samurott/Ludiocolo), leaving CM as its more flexible set, which is outclassed by Slowbro most of the time, as you're forced to use it as a fighting resist occasionally, and slowbro does that so much easier. Not to say it isn't good, and the better initial special bulk does help in some matchups, its just that generally its outclassed.

A => A+

Speaking of which, look at what is basically the most reliable fighting switchin in the tier, and like the only thing that can hope to switchin to machamp ever, taking less than 50% from knock if you're carrying waterium-z, and not dying to facade like 99% of the time. Additionally, as seen in tour play, its a fairly reliable win condition with the CM set, and the toxic set can also put in work vs some bulkier teams.


Edit:

Omastar

C+ = > B/B-

This is entirely off of how consistent the lead set can be on hyper offense, and how well it pressures a lot of the tier's hazard removal mons (ice beam for xatu, hitmon has 0 bulk), only really losing hard to cryogonal, which you pressure enough with rocks anyways tbh. It can afford SS/SR, and can even get off clutch 3 mon sweeps if your opponent plays bad.

 

[LORD HELIX 65]

I'm gonna make a nominations for one rather underranked pokemon.

Dodrio: B ---> B+/A-

This is a very underranked pokemon atm. SD life orb is a very potent set capable of blowing up bulky and HO teams with relative ease. You can get the chance to set up against rockers like seismitoad, claydol, etc. and use brave bird and return to wreak havoc against the opponent. It's great speed stat of 110 means you can outspeed the ever prevelant Virizion and kill it with brave bird, or use SD if you predict a switch out. The same thing applies for a lot of pokemon in NU. It's newly obtained move in jump kick gives it a solid coverage option to cover 2/3 of weaknesses, so it can 1v1 slower ice and rock types like Cryogonal, Vanilluxe, Rhydon, Piloswine, Golem, and Barbaracle. Dodrio is also an extremly versatile pokemon when it comes to sets. It can run SD Flyinium-Z, SD Fightinium-Z, Choice scarf, even choice band if you felt like it! It can provide whatever offensive lead you need, whether that be a Z-move abuser, A scarfer, a boosting attacker, or even a banded attacker. Unfortunately, Dodrio lacks bulk, which hurts its ability to set up, so it must set up on passive pokemon or rockers. However, Dodrio is still quite good and suprisingly effective in this metagame, and should be placed in B+ or A- but I feel B+ is more fitting for the bird than A-

 

[Shadestep]

Sigilyph: A- --> A_
Sigilyph is sooo good. its super strong and it has amazing coverage in dazzling gleam, energy ball, heat wave, ice beam, you name it. i think A- is really underselling it as it is incredibly strong and difficult to play around. for example, the standard sceptile / steelix / bulky psychic or water cores get crushed by sigilyph on its own. obviously its easily pursuit trapped, but neither scarf drapion or CB sneasel ohko it with pursuit if it stays in, making it a 50/50. heat wave does a good chunk to both, easily OHKOing non-eviolite sneasel and doing over half to drapion, meaning one or 2 sr switchins + a rocky helmet hit or any other small chip damage is enough to bust through them. I think sigilyph is really overlooked and deserves a higher placing due to its incredible core breaking power.

 

[Colonel M]

Oh yeah.

With Cofagrigus gone I would like to retract my nomination to raise Drapion. Sorry.

/shrug

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Hello, first post here in NU. Looking forward to occasionally play the tier every now and then. I haven't played too long, but there is one Pokemon I want to talk about:

A ---> A+

I actually found it a little weird to have Drapion in A. I guess I can understand to an extent - it's not something that's likely going to break through teams, but its great utility in Pursuit and Knock Off are very valuable. I feel Drapion is a lot better at Pursuit trapping than Sneasel since Drapion has bulk and Poison / Dark actually has beneficial synergy to it. Being able to at least check Virizion and Sceptile is pretty nice too if it's Scarf Drapion. I just find this Pokemon slides into builds really easy and is one of the big reasons (outside of Cofagrigus and, to an extent, Sneasel) Psychic-types get throttled.

There's also Drapion's Swords Dance set. Though it isn't the most common set in the tier, it is still fairly deadly considering most answer it with Ground-type attacks - something Drapion often has covered with Shuca Berry. +2 Knock Off is really damn hard for a lot of Pokemon to switch into if teammates are slower too.

I find that Drapion is fairly splashable in a lot of teams and puts in a lot of work everytime it's around. I get some of the A Rank beasts, like Steelix, Slowbro / Slowking, and Machamp bring a lot to teams as well, but I think Drapion's decent offensive prowess and utility combination are big to have around and have merits to being reflected better within A.

I don't know where to personally rank them, but Turtonator should rise in my opinion. Probably Alolan-Sandslash to some extent only because it can fit on the other Hail users as well (though Aurorus is best in terms of Hyper Offense). Aurora Veil is dumb to face against and Alolan Sandslash is only "good" because of it.

 

[Metal Sonic]

Zangoose: Unranked -> B+

This should be ranked; Zangoose is an amazing wallbreaker that can punch holes through many teams. It barely needs support to do its job, though some speed control will help. Toxic Boost boosted Facade further boosted by STAB coming off a respectable 115 base Attack makes it highly formidable; the STAB boost makes Facade hit 315 Base Power, which is WTF tier (stronger than any Z-move).

Toxic Boost Knock Off allows it to beat Cofagrigus, and Close Combat 2HKOes Steelix and Rhydon, making them unable to switch in safely.

Almost anything in the tier that does not resist Facade will be 2HKOed, if not OHKOed, giving Zangoose very few safe switch-ins.

Relevant calcs vs the strongest walls in the tier:

Calcs

252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix: 170-202 (48 - 57%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (note that most Steelix run SpDef)
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Steelix: 214-254 (60.7 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 226-266 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Cofagrigus: 232-274 (72.7 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Comparing Zangoose's damage output to the most prominent NU Facade user Machamp:

252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 204 HP / 248+ Def Vaporeon: 340-402 (75.2 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 237-279 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Close Combat vs. 204 HP / 248+ Def Vaporeon: 319-376 (70.5 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Guts Machamp Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 172-203 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Base 90 Speed is nice, putting it on the same Speed tier as Drapion and Meloetta. With Quick Attack, it can even clean off weakened and frail revenge killers.

Zangoose should get a rank, imo. At least one Pokemon on the opponent's team will die if it manages to get on the field safely.

Toxic Boost is only slightly worse than Guts in SM, because Burn got nerfed, but that's negligible.

 

[Bouff]

a+

machamp is arguably one of the best wallbreakers in the tier at the moment thanks to its flame orb set. its kind of hard to get in safely and its speed isnt good by any means but it breaks a lof of the common poison / lix / fat water cores that are so prominent rn, given that cc / knock / facade isnt really resisted by much rn. offensive teams don't particularly have any great switchins either. it is admittedly easy to wear down, and again its pretty slow making it not terrible to rk but it just nukes teams without much effort to the point where i think it should be among other breakers like melo in a+.

a-
also think braviary should be a- p much solely on the spd defog set since its one of the best switchins to cofag in the tier and tanks virtually any special hit that isnt se. admittedly i havent tried any of the other sets but even with lix / rhydon being so prominent rn, it's splashable enough that it can fit on most balance squads as hazard control

e: i said so prominent twice fwm

 

[Tangelo]

Jellicent is probably the bulky water in the worst spot and honestly is not comparable in effectiveness to anything else in A (or even A- imo). There are very few teams that would prefer Jellicent to Slowbro. Defensive teams aren't common enough for Taunt/WoW to push it that high, and it's only other niche is spin blocking which really isn't that significant since a. spinners in general are in a shitty spot with Cofag in the tier and b. most spinners (Hitmonlee/Hitmontop) have a way to beat Jellicent anyways. Unlike Slowbro, Jellicent doesn't beat most fighting mons in the tier (Hitmonlee/Machamp), is much easier to wear down or pressure with Pursuit, and is still plagued by the same issues as Slowbro (TSpikes, Cofag, half of the top mons in the tier being offensive Grasses). Until defensive teams start to see popularity or spinning becomes a more viable form of hazard control, Jellicent is pretty badly outclassed. So I'm pushing for Jellicent to drop to B+.

After using it a ton, I can safely say that Incineroar is definitely an amazing mon in the current meta. The influx of Cofag + strong grasses usage along with its ability to soft check Sneasel and maintain momentum mean this mon is a solid glue on lots of teams that covers lots of hard to cover threats. It still has its issues, however, being that it's hazard weak so it requires removal (which, as I mentioned earlier, currently sucks). In other words, I think Incineroar should move up to B+.

Outside of that stuff, some noms that others made that I agree with are moving up Drapion, Machamp, Accelgor, and Sigilyph.

 

[Raseri]

I'd like to Sneasel drop from S to A+ or possibly even A. With the current teams that are popular, there are a lot of fatmons like Slowbro, Steelix etc that can consistently apply pressure to Sneasel. Historically, Sneasel has been most effective when frail offensive teams are thriving. The current NU metagame is not lending itself well to that. The standard BO build that I see right now of Lix / bulky poison / Slowbro / Powerful grass type are teams that Drapion applies pressure to much more consistently. With the increasing populariy of machamp, theres another Pokemon that can threaten Sneasel and force him out. And in all of this Sneasel has to worry about entry hazards 10x more than Drapion.

Sneasel is still a really good Pokemon and does a better job at trapping faster psychics and ghosts, but right now I think the meta is just a bit too fat for Sneasel to really thrive in.

Moreover, the most popular offensive build with Aveil offense has the capacity to take advantage of Sneasel when its forced to lock itself into weak moves.

Also I'd like to see Slowking drop because as the meta has developed its shown to be quite a bit worse than Slowbro. I think b+ is a better place for Slowking.

 

[Jarii]

I'd like to Sneasel drop from S to A+ or possibly even A. With the current teams that are popular, there are a lot of fatmons like Slowbro, Steelix etc that can consistently apply pressure to Sneasel. Historically, Sneasel has been most effective when frail offensive teams are thriving. The current NU metagame is not lending itself well to that. The standard BO build that I see right now of Lix / bulky poison / Slowbro / Powerful grass type are teams that Drapion applies pressure to much more consistently. With the increasing populariy of machamp, theres another Pokemon that can threaten Sneasel and force him out. And in all of this Sneasel has to worry about entry hazards 10x more than Drapion.

Sneasel is still a really good Pokemon and does a better job at trapping faster psychics and ghosts, but right now I think the meta is just a bit too fat for Sneasel to really thrive in.

Moreover, the most popular offensive build with Aveil offense has the capacity to take advantage of Sneasel when its forced to lock itself into weak moves.

Also I'd like to see Slowking drop because as the meta has developed its shown to be quite a bit worse than Slowbro. I think b+ is a better place for Slowking.

I kinda disagree with this, Sneasel still is one of the most threatening pokémons in the tier with an amazing Speed tier / priority / strong dual stabs. With your arguements I would begin with Steelix: Steelix is easily chipped away and needs support to stay actively a check to sneasel and has a ton of other jobs to do on a team as well which with Sneasel on a team it has to priotize on checking Sneasel 90% of the time which opens up for other pokémons on the team. With Slowbro's case I would say that Slowbro deserves then a rank up then Sneasel having a rank down. So Slowbro should go to A+.

Then Drapion what you mentioned about Drapion being able to pressure more consistently on the standard build today I would also say that Drapion should go to A+ rather then Sneasel going down. If you look at the current S to A list Sneasel is able to threaten 75-85% of the pokémons on that list.

 

[LORD HELIX 65]

Jellicent is probably the bulky water in the worst spot and honestly is not comparable in effectiveness to anything else in A (or even A- imo). There are very few teams that would prefer Jellicent to Slowbro. Defensive teams aren't common enough for Taunt/WoW to push it that high, and it's only other niche is spin blocking which really isn't that significant since a. spinners in general are in a shitty spot with Cofag in the tier and b. most spinners (Hitmonlee/Hitmontop) have a way to beat Jellicent anyways. Unlike Slowbro, Jellicent doesn't beat most fighting mons in the tier (Hitmonlee/Machamp), is much easier to wear down or pressure with Pursuit, and is still plagued by the same issues as Slowbro (TSpikes, Cofag, half of the top mons in the tier being offensive Grasses). Until defensive teams start to see popularity or spinning becomes a more viable form of hazard control, Jellicent is pretty badly outclassed. So I'm pushing for Jellicent to drop to B+.

After using it a ton, I can safely say that Incineroar is definitely an amazing mon in the current meta. The influx of Cofag + strong grasses usage along with its ability to soft check Sneasel and maintain momentum mean this mon is a solid glue on lots of teams that covers lots of hard to cover threats. It still has its issues, however, being that it's hazard weak so it requires removal (which, as I mentioned earlier, currently sucks). In other words, I think Incineroar should move up to B+.

Outside of that stuff, some noms that others made that I agree with are moving up Drapion, Machamp, Accelgor, and Sigilyph.

I definitely agree with every rose and drop on this list. Incineroar is very anti-meta rn and should definitely rise because it destroys cores that revolve around cofagrigus and destroys the slow brothers, and if you choose to use tailwind with it, it can become very dangerous, especially its Banded set. machamp should rise to A+ due to its extreme wall breaking capabilities, and being able to blow up everything in its path with its guts set, it is almost unstoppable on web teams as well. Jellicent is not reminiscent in effectiveness to any A rank or To an extent A- Pokemon because it gets worn down easily by stuff like toxic, entry hazards, and suffers from the popularity of Sneasel, Cofagrigus, Virizion and sceptile. The rest I also agree with as well

 

[Disjunction]

I'll be honest I really don't remember what's been nommed so far so I'm just gonna go through the list and make my own noms. If I repeat anything I hope you guys can forgive me!!

B --> B-

There are a bunch of other smashers that are ten times as good as this thing. You have to bend over backwards for it to work because of how commonplace checks for it are. With the support you need for this thing to start setting up, you can probably run just about any other setup sweeper and it'd be more effective in more matchups.

A+ --> S

I was originally opposed to this on the last slate, but I've changed my mind as the meta has developed more. I'm of the opinion that Cofagrigus is the most broken mon in the tier and that it's forcing a lot of teams to adapt in unhealthy ways. Meloetta will often times be a quick fix for a lot of teams patching up a Cofag weakness, and as useful as that is, I think that's only a secondary reason as to why it's so splashable right now. With as powerful as it is, Meloetta often will invalidate a team's response to Psychic-types between its two best sets, Colbur CM and Choice Specs. Steelix isn't a switch-in, Drapion needs to play 50/50's with Specs in order to kill it immediately/outright loses to Colbur CM if it CM's on the switch, and it beats most other Psychics through sheer power alone. Extremely meta-defining mon imo.

A --> A+

Slowbro is so ridiculously good. It's one of the few mons that can give balance a check to the likes of Machamp while providing a reliable wincon with the CM Z Move sets. It's a blanket check for most physical attackers in the tier, Sneasel included, and I just believe that the meta favors it a ton right now.

A --> A-

Hard to justify using this as a spinblocker in a tier where Cofagrigus reins supreme. With how passive it is, it's hard to justify it over something like Slowbro as your team's bulky Water-type, but it can at least put pressure on the opponent with Taunt and (suboptimal) spin blocking. Not as good as it was when it dropped, but still good enough to consider.

B --> A-

Webs is starting to come out as a very consistent and terrifying offensive team archetype. Hazard control options in the tier are pretty easy to exploit and it's pretty anti-meta when the best team archetypes are offensive builds.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7nubeta-300895
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7nubeta-301472

2 good replays of webs from NUPL Week 1.

/

C/C+ --> A-/A

I know this is a big jump, but the Aurora Veil team archetype is extremely consistent and has been coming into the spotlight as one of the best playstyles right now. It might look weird for Sandslash and Aurorus to be so high up when the only thing they do is set up rocks, hail, veil, maybe spin then die, but the playstyle really is that good.

Probably some other minor shifts that could happen, but the meta is changing every week and I think these changes are appropriate for all the big stuff that's happened.

 

[Finchinator]

Things I think should rise:

Meloetta -> S - Meloetta needs no introduction when it comes to NU right now. Clearly, it is one of the most dynamic offensive presences in the metagame and it is one of the top Pokemon. Currently, it resides in the A+ rank and I feel like even this is selling it a bit short. Although I have not been seeing too many different variations of Meloetta, I do think it runs Choice Specs and Calm Mind sets with incredible effectiveness. I believe that there is an argument that Meloetta could have been S from the start of the generation, but the more the metagame has developed with the slight shifts in the tier's Pokemon and trends becoming more and more evident with time passing (i.e those Slowbro + Steelix bulky-offense teams, which feel like they make up 2/3 the metagame), Meloetta's place in the metagame is cemented. This place is one of a strong breaker and potential win condition, tearing apart the norm when it comes to balanced cores and finding itself taking a Pokemon down a fair amount of the time it enters the game. While there is counterplay in the metagame, I am not arguing that it is banworthy -- that's for another time. There are plenty of Scarf Pokemon that can revenge kill it, for example. Not to mention that there, of course, is the presence of Pursuit, which makes the life-span of non-Colbur Meloetta fairly short in almost all cases. With this said, I still find that there are not many direct, defensive counters. Slowking can check the Choice Specs variant if it remains at full and is EVd well enough, but it can find itself falling short against Calm Mind variants. On the contrary, defensive cores and offensive pressure can generally manage a Choiced Meloetta far easier than one that can switch-up moves or even set up a Substitute, if it is Sub CM, but there is not too much universal counterplay and I feel like that is the sign of a Pokemon that, to an extent, has a metagame defining offensive presence. Now, you might not necessarily see Meloetta as often as you do Pokemon like the aforementioned Steelix and Slowbro, but it is not too far off and the impact it has in-game is one that should not be overlooked. Ultimately, I feel like Meloetta's offensive presence is enough to put it into S with everything taken into consideration.

Slowbro -> A+ - I mean, I have always felt like Slowbro was a bit of a misfit because it does not really feel like a Neverused Pokemon to me when you take into consideration the defensive presence it has and the ability Regenerator being so damn good. At this point, I feel as if Slowbro is almost too good to pass up on a lot of teams. This does not necessarily make it S rank as there is a bunch of counterplay to it and it has plenty of cons as a Pokemon, especially with the metagame being likely to adapt to it being so common in the immediate future, but for the time being I see it being A, alongside Slowking, a misplacement. Slowbro has not only found its way onto many more teams than Slowking, as shown here, but it also has a higher win percentage so far in NUPL (yea, it has only been one week, but I have a strong feeling this trend will continue, even if it is not to the same extent that it currently is). In addition to this, I feel like Slowbro fits in the sub-tier that the offensive grasses reside as they are some of the best offensive pivots, hard-hitters, or win conditions whereas Slowbro is easily the best defensive sponge that does not kill momentum in the tier. The A rank has many very good, consistently used Pokemon, but Slowbro certainly stands out to me as the best of the bunch and moving it up seems like the best line-of-action.

Steelix -> A+* - First off, I am a bit split on what to do here. I think that Steelix is clearly the most common and best Stealth Rock Ground type in the tier given how things are shaping up, but this does not necessarily mean it has to be A+ rank. However, I do think it should be a sub-rank ahead of Rhydon and they both are A right now. Generally, both are great Pokemon in the tier and there still is appeal to use both, but the defensive presence of Steelix and the fact that it fits onto so many teams right now whereas Rhydon finds itself losing badly to pretty much every Pokemon in A+ and S and not providing as much to teams makes Steelix being a sub-rank higher very clear, in my eyes. Steelix being A+ might be a bit of a stretch seeing as it is very common, but it is not necessarily as good as Pokemon that currently reside in A+ and I do not know how much we truly value the different aspects of a Pokemon (usage, effectiveness, niche, movesets, etc...it all adds up, but I'm just not confident that I would place Steelix in A+ or not, so I'll leave that up to others). Ultimately, I am fine either way and I will elaborate more when I discuss Rhydon below, but I think there does need to be some separation.

Scrafty -> A- - Actually was pretty surprised to see Scrafty in B+ and I think that it is a really cool Pokemon right now. Sadly, it has multiple clear shortcomings -- lack of off-the-bat strength and being slow as shit. With that said, it still has insane natural bulk and the tools to be a well-rounded win condition with the help of Moxie, Z-Moves, and its respectable movepool. I do not think Scrafty is necessarily the best, nor most consistent, win condition in the tier. However, when compared to other Pokemon in the B+ rank, such as Swords Dance Absol and Samurott, I think it is clearly a step above those. If you were to go a step further and compare Scrafty to the Pokemon in A- rank, I think it fits in quite well. I personally find it to be a bit better than fellow fighting type Toxicroak, but both are kind of different and I think they both belong roughly in A-. Another point is that many "standard" builds right now simply discount adding a true counter to Scrafty and rely on revenge killing, playing around, or consistently pressuring this and honestly, this is something I find to not be passable seeing as it is so naturally bulky and unforgiving with Moxie. Moreover, given where Scrafty stands in relation to other things and how it performs in the context of the tier, I think that it can easily rise to A- and would fit there much better than B+.

Typhlosion -> B- - Man, I feel like what was once one of NU's best Pokemon, so good that it got banned, has swiftly fallen from grace into the shadows of irrelevance. With that said, I think that it still puts up more of a fight than so many people give it credit for and it certainly is a viable option on many teams without going too far out of your way. I think that the Scarf variant is now complete shit, but the Specs set and perhaps Z sets (have not tested the latter) still hold a place in the tier and actually are quite underrated -- certainly better than some of the garbage that currently is C+. I have been using a lot of Specs Typhlosion lately and having things like Eruption almost 100% 2HKO Slowbro and so many teams either relying upon something that is short-lived, like AV Incineroar, or something that gets 2HKOd by STAB as counterplay lets it open up so many holes or potentially just claim a kill each time it comes in safely. I do not want to go on too long about a Pokemon that still is not anywhere near top tier, but I do think it is ranked too low currently and could afford to be moved up one.

Things I think should drop:

Emboar -> A - I do not think this thing ever should have been A+, to be quite honest, and I certainly do not think it should reside in this sub-tier right now. Maybe it is the fact that I spam Slowbro on almost every team, but I honestly find Emboar to be very underwhelming and not as potent as many thing it is. Sure, it can hit hard, has a nice movepool in conjunction with respectable dual STAB, and it has just enough speed to let it outrun most walls. However, that does not necessarily correlate to being a top-tier breaker and with Slowbro, Uxie, Garbodor, and various other things that discourage Emboar usage/Emboar being consistently effective being quite common and effective themselves, I think that Emboar is simply not A+ caliber. Sure, one can argue that with the offensive grasses running the tier, there is a lot of reason to use Emboar, but it is not like it can check much defensively to begin with and, again, I just do not see it as too great a metagame pick outside of that. Scarf Emboar might be passable, too, but I find it to still be a bit slow for my taste and not as strong as I would like a Pokemon like Emboar to be. Honestly, you need either Speed or Bulk to truly make power work on a consistent level if you wish to be a top tier threat in this metagame and I feel like Emboar lacks both of these a bit too much to pass for A+ right now given everything going against it.

Rhydon -> A-* - First off, I am a bit split on what to do here. I think that Steelix is clearly the most common and best Stealth Rock Ground type in the tier given how things are shaping up, but this does not necessarily mean it has to be A+ rank. However, I do think it should be a sub-rank ahead of Rhydon and they both are A right now. Generally, both are great Pokemon in the tier and there still is appeal to use both, but the defensive presence of Steelix and the fact that it fits onto so many teams right now whereas Rhydon finds itself losing badly to pretty much every Pokemon in A+ and S and not providing as much to teams makes Steelix being a sub-rank higher very clear, in my eyes. With that said, it is hard to say if Rhydon, itself, is deserving of a drop to A- considering it still has a very nice offensive presence as a Stealth Rock setter and if teams can afford to fit it, which is still very possible seeing as it is far from deadweight defensively, then they can abuse this. Ultimately, I am a bit more in favor of moving Steelix up, but I am a bit uncertain of both sides here and am more willing to let others give stronger stances until my own is more set-in-stone -- bottom line is that there should be some separation between the two.

Slowking -> A- - Slowking honestly is a good Pokemon in the tier and has a lot to offer, but it finds itself trailing behind Slowbro in usage, effectiveness, and general viability right now and I feel like this is hindering it quite a bit as a Pokemon overall. I think that on this merit, it deserves a drop. I really have only used Slowking 2-3 times whereas I have used Slowbro on dozens of teams makes me perhaps a bit ill-informed on this front, but even from a perspective of someone opposing/using both or just Slowking in general, this drops seems warranted on the front of it being a less convenient defensive presence in general (still, worthwhile on some teams, admittedly) and less appeal to use it, thus making it less viable.

Jellicent -> A- - Jellicent has been really underwhelming to me. I honestly thought it would be cool to have a Pokemon with a legitimate defensive presence paired with utility like Jellicent as opposed to the generic bulky water of the tier (such as Slowbro/Slowking), but it turns out that the utility itself does not really add too much to the overall appeal and does not make it very effective, especially with Special grasses all over the metagame. I just am not too big on Jellicent and find it to be no better than something like Slowking or maybe even Vaporeon, but certainly far less useful than Slowbro. Could be jumping the gun here, to be honest, but as of now I think a drop would be best.

Absol -> B - I have seen like one of these in a few hundred battles and it did absolutely nothing. I have not used it and will admit that, but it seems underwhelming in theory and so hard to fit onto teams when it does not stand out too much compared to other Darks or Physical attackers in general, so I do not see much of a reason to keep it decently-high ranked unless others have been witnessing something very different than what I have seen. Honestly, I could see it falling even more, but baby steps.

Sableye -> C+ or lower - I have seen at least a few Sableye, but it is actually garbage with Prankster's new mechanics and the fact that it is so naturally frail in a tier full of generally strong Pokemon when it comes to NU standards. I can see it being an option on some weird stalls, but even then I do not think it is anywhere near needed and I do not find any reason to really use it right now, so yea to hell with it.

* means one or the other (elaborated on this in the explanations themselves)

2999 n_n

 

[Dreadfury]

Zangoose
Unranked --> Somewhere: STRONGLY Agree

Although I'm relatively new to NU I decided to test Zangoose out alongside the Aurora Veil core, this time substituting Close Combat for Swords Dance due to its vastly increased setup opportunities and giving it a Jolly nature to allow it to outpace Hitmonlee's Mach Punch with its Quick Attack. Although Aurorus+Alolan Sandslash is what makes this really shine, the amount of stuff Zangoose manages to cleanly OHKO or 2HKO after the boost is incredible.

Here are two additional Zangoose calcs, this time using the variant I proposed, that may or may not be some food for thought:

+2 252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hitmonlee: 298-352 (123.6 - 146%) -- guaranteed OHKO

(Even at max Speed, Hitmonlee is unable to outpace Jolly Zangoose and revenge kill it with Mach Punch. If Aurora Veil is up Zangoose only takes half from Mach Punch and OHKOs even with an unboosted Facade.)

+2 252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Steelix: 170-201 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

(If Steelix takes any amount of hail damage whatsoever the 2HKO is almost guaranteed. With Veil up, Steelix cannot OHKO Zangoose back without significant prior damage, and because Zangoose isn't forced to use Close Combat to break Steelix thanks to SD+Facade Steelix isn't capitalizing on the move's defense drops to tank a CC and kill it in return.)

All Rhydon variants fall to Knock Off+Facade. Even max HP+max Defense Rhydon (which I'm pretty sure doesn't really exist) is always 2HKOed by the combo.

TL;DR: Put Zangoose somewhere. It's good enough to be ranked and it's honestly good enough for something like B+ or maybe better, especially considering how much it benefits from a playstyle as strong as Veil HO.

 

[Metal Sonic]

Thanks for that, Dreadfury!

Dreadfury raises another good point, as to how Zangoose can function not only as a deadly wallbreaker (as I've raised) but also as a highly threatening set up sweeper (but with aurora veil support). With only a little bit of support, Zangoose can go a long way. It shouldn't be unranked.

I know it looks a little bit stupid if you haven't tried it, considering its frailty, and we have other Facaders in the tier, but if you paid attention to my post, Zangoose stands out and plays a different role from, say, Machamp (slow and less damage, but with stronger CC).

It's frail, yes, but its offensive prowess is like a diamond in the dust; Zangoose has been overlooked and should now be ranked.

 

[TTK]

After taking a little look at the rankings I saw a mon that I honesty thought should move up and that is Incineroar

Incineroar B => B+ or A-

I seriously have no idea why this mon is in B. Incineroar is a very strong mon and with its AV set, the set I feel is the strongest on it, it can take care of many of the top tiers down quite easily, such as: Sneasel, Sceptile, Rotom-C, Meloetta, Slowking, Uxie, Sigilyph, Vivillon and Xatu.

Here are some calcs for how tanky AV Incineroar is:

• +2 4 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Incineroar: 254-300 (64.4 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• +3 252 SpA Vivillon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Incineroar: 255-300 (64.7 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As B tier mons are described "These Pokemon will have some issues you should be accounting for while building your team". In Incineroar's case, the pros extremely outweigh the cons here. The only weaknesses I've seen in Incineroar while using him were lack of recovery, rocks weakness, fighting types like Emboar and Lee, Slowbro and Rhydon. That's about it tbh.

This is why I think Incineroar should move up to at least B+ or even A-.

 

[SANJAY]

KABUTOPS Unranked -> B / B-

I'm slightly surprised this isn't ranked. After playing with Rain (Which is "broken"), this thing deserves to be ranked. Waterfall / Aqua Jet under rain coming off of a base 115 attack stat is really scary and couple that with either two of: SD, SE or Superpower suddenly, this thing almost is impossible to switch into. In rain, Kabutops manages to hit 518 speed which is enough to outspeed the likes of Scarf Delphox. It's just a good rain sweeper / cleaner that can be scary if you're unprepared for. Ranking it a rank under Ludicolo (Another rain Pokemon) might be more ideal, considering it struggles against the likes of Seismitoad / Gastrodon where as Ludicolo doesn't. By any means, Kabutops isn't flawless, it has some common counter play in the form of Toxicroak / Slowbro (Which the latter has to beware of Continental Crush). Overall, Kabutops, much like Ludicolo, is crazy under rain and especially at +2, it becomes difficult to switch into. Despite the positives, Kabutops struggles against common Pokemon such as Toxicroak, Seismitoad and Slowbro. There isn't really anything more to say, it's deadly under rain, especially if you have no way of beating it.

(Also, support the rise of Shuckle/Aurorus/Sandslash Alola/Zangoose (Though maybe not B+, probably B)/Slowbro and Braviary. Not gonna write much as literally everything I'd say about them has already been said)

E: Will add more replays later

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nubeta-604208296

 

[psVoltage]

First post in nu this gen, hello all

I'll support jellicent to A-
I've been using it on a bo spike stacking team and while it fills a very necessary role on that team, being a bulky spin blocker and bulky water to compress roles. It is forced out more than you would like. Alot of the higher tier mons are grass dark and ghost types which threaten it. It's still a really good mon with utility but it's not as splashable (no pun Nintendo) as say Slowbro.

 

[cyanize]

Steelix -> A+ / Rhydon A-: Disagree

Okay, I'm gonna preface this by saying that I think Lix is massively overrated. Ever since Slurpuff and Ribombee and Dragalge left I feel as if it lost a good chunk of viability since it's not required on a team anymore to not lose to x or y broken threat -- but people are still using it on every other team as if it is (see: ~50% usage rate in nupl.) My main problem with it is, I guess, is that it goes quite unnoticed how much it actually doesn't beat / switch in to.
Let's break it down, shall we? Out of the S/A Ranks, it reliably switches into:
Sneasel (though taking 30 and losing your only source of recovery when you do so really isn't much of a favorable trade)
SubCM Melo running SBall/DGleam (you obviously don't switch into specs and scarf, offensive cm z move should always have FBlast because dual STAB is kind of a waste imo, and SubCM FBlast doesn't ohko you unboosted but you can't even 2hko it back so lol)
Whimsicott (not really the hardest thing to switch in to but i guess it's a point, and even then you are 2hkod by the rare specs EBall)
Choiced Drapion (scarf you're generally safe against though losing lefties is again not nice, band does 30 with knock which is even less nice and also does 45 with eq so you're technically a switchin but like... also, sd sets blow lix away -- shuca obv wins, ground z is favored to ohko at +2, and even lum can win if you switch in on sd but it takes 90 in the process.)
Golbat (still defogs on you 100% free though)
Uxie
Garbodor
Vivillon... kinda
(+1 252 SpA Vivillon Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 244 HP / 128 SpD Steelix: 210-247 (59.6 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery... lol)

So, just by looking at it, Steelix only beats 7 out of 26 S/A Rank mons -- not even counting the fact that it doesn't even beat all of the sets of the aforementioned seven mons. Not to mention, 3 out of the 7 are defensive mons and aren't even things you should have to go out of your way to switch in to, and one out of THAT doesn't even really lose - Golbat and Steelix just kinda sit and stare at each other forever. I don't think this really constitutes the unrivalled defensive qualities that an A+ rank mon.
Now, I'd be all for dropping Rhydon instead if it actually were noticeably worse than Lix, but the problem is that it's kinda not. Rhydon exchanges an ever-relevant Fire resist for Steelix's Fairy and Psychic resists, and bring to the table notable offensive presence and a solid increase in bulk, meaning it can actually beat things such as SD Drap as it lives +2 Z-EQ (+2 252 Atk Drapion Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 48+ Def Eviolite Rhydon: 304-358 (73.4 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) and actually has a chance to OHKO back, and can use SD to bust through Shuca. Of course, after both of these exchanges Rhydon is nearly dead, but I'd rather have a nearly rocker and a dead Drap than vice versa. It also actually beats Golbat and Uxie, rather than PP stalling and waiting a million years for Toxic to do its work respectively as Steelix. Another boon it has is actually threatening Xatu.

e: i accidentally posted this before finishing it and i have somewhere to go now, but i got my point across so meh

 

[Metal Sonic]

Cinccino C+ -> B

What is this cute fluffy thing doing in C+? In my opinion, it's one of the deadliest wallbreakers in the tier. Although its Attack is only 95, which isn't THAT high, but still acceptable (equivalent to Sneasel), with Cinccino's blazing fast Speed (also equivalent to Sneasel) and amazing movepool to complement its ability, Skill Link, should already place it above C-tier. Access to Bullet Seed, Rock Blast, and Tail Slap, all amazing 25 BP 5-Multi-Hit moves, gives Cinccino access to literally 125 BP moves at its disposal, with the bonus of breaking through Substitutes, Sturdy, and Focus Sashes. In fact, with STAB Tail Slap, it is able to OHKO a good number of frailer Pokemon in the tier.

252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sceptile: 310-370 (110.3 - 131.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tauros: 220-275 (75.6 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's not all; Cinccino's access to great coverage options in the form of Bullet Seed and Rock Blast help it tremendously to dispatch many common walls in the tier, something that Sneasel cannot boast.

252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Jellicent: 285-350 (70.7 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 340-415 (82.1 - 100.2%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 520-625 (125.6 - 150.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 204 HP / 248+ Def Vaporeon: 285-350 (63 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 180-220 (50.8 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Xatu: 285-350 (85.3 - 104.7%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO

The fact that Cinccino is able to enjoy a 2HKO on many of the walls in the tier ensures that Cinccino can clean up easily after a match after they are weakened, or in fact weaken specific checks or counters for a teammate to sweep.

Additionally, while Life Orb is the preferred set for Cinccino in order to enjoy its amazing coverage, Cinccino can also opt to run a Choice Band set (similar to the Sneasel conundrum), which then also can actively function as a pivot thanks to Cinccino's access to U-Turn. Knock Off is also available for Cinccino to learn, in the event that the coverage is needed, and also to disrupt opponents by making them lose their item.

Although it is unfortunate that the main counter to Cinccino is one of the most common physical walls in the tier, Steelix, Cinccino users can opt to circumvent this using Z-Focus Blast:

4 SpA Cinccino All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 244 HP / 128 SpD Steelix: 230-272 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

This adds additional utility to Cinccino by allowing it to function as the perfect Steelix lure: as Steelix has no reliable recovery, it will be severely crippled for the rest of the match, potentially allowing a teammate to muscle past and sweep.

Finally, an additional option is to use Work Up Cinccino, allowing her to function as a late-game sweeper, once all faster threats and priority users are removed. I've also seen some users running King's Rock Cinccino, relying on that 41% flinch chance to clutch win, but that's annoying.

Alas, I recognize that one main flaw that gives me pause when using Cinccino is that her powerful STAB attack is not spammable - with a 85% Accuracy, equivalent to moves like Fire Blast. However, one should also note that a 125 BP Tail Slap is a boost compared to Fire Blast's 110 BP.

In summary, I would like to make the case for Cinccino being a powerful wallbreaker with amazing coverage, and has underrated versatility in being able to lure, pivot, sweep, or clean, depending on the user's needs. Such a talented Pokemon should not be made to stay C Rank.

Now that Cofagrigus is gone from the tier, I would like to revisit the rising of Cinccino up to B rank, as it can now more effortlessly spam Choice Banded Base 125 BP Tail Slaps to clean up and win games. Cinccino's effectiveness as a wallbreaker, cleaner, and pivot has been upgraded thanks to the most common counter immune to its Tail Slaps leaving the tier.

this is totally not because I just got beaten by a Choice Banded Cinccino in a PS NU tour

 

[shiloh]

hey posting to say a few things

first of all i would like to welcome Raseri, Finchinator, and Jarii to the vr council alongside erisia and the rest of the nu council who are used to decide where mons end up on the vr n_n (also looking to add more people who are active posters in the thread so dont feel discouraged)

also want to make a nom based on a few metagame trends, mainly cofag being banned kind of shaking up the meta

**A+ -> S

i think sceptile is the perfect fit for S due to how potent the specs set on its own is. specs leaf storm on its own can 2hko just about everything it hits neutrally after rocks, even being able to 2hko a large number of resists like skuntank meaning they only get one switch in before they die to leaf storm on the next switch in. its also very easy to pivot into via volt turn, bring it in on passive water types that are ever present like seismitoad, jellicent, vaporeon and the likes. its very splashable at the moment and is what i would consider the best grass type in the tier due to how much more powerful it is off the bat compared to other attackers like virizion and lilligant who have lesser speed tiers and have trouble threatening teams without a boost or two of their own. overall i think sceptile is the premiere offensive special attacker at the moment for balance or offense, not even going into the life orb and swords dance sets which are just as viable leading me to believe it deserves S in the current metagame.

there are a few other things i agree with that have been brought up so keep up the good work, and expect an update in the next few days so keep the good posts coming

 

[Metal Sonic]

Would like to add on that Rotom-C is similarly awesome since it's special attack is equal to Sceptile, and has a nice Volt Switch to pivot out of and weaken an incoming check, before mid or late game allowing Sceptile / Rotom-C itself spam Leaf Storms and nuke the opponent into a leafy hell.

Rotom-C's speed tier is quite decent, though of course not as fast as Sceptile, but has a lot nicer bulk than Sceptile as well. Also, a nice spammable STAB thunderbolt.

Rotom-C is great too and can work separately or alongside Sceptile :)

--
EDIT: my bad, I thought it was 107 like it's defenses whoops! Fixed the above error!

 

[Rapture]

Would like to add on that Rotom-C is similarly awesome since it's special attack is technically higher than Sceptile

not technically, unless i'm missing smth they both have 105 sp atk lol

 

[AJB]

Rises

Vileplume -> A- The metagame is very kind to Vileplume right now, and it fits on a lot of bulky offense / balance builds as a solid glue mon. Being able to reliably switch into the super prominent powerful Grass-types like Rotom-C and Whimsicott, as well as sponge Sceptile's Leaf Storms is a godsend for slower builds. Aside from its STAB moves being generally annoying to switch into, Sleep Powder and Stun Spore help Vileplume from being too passive and prevent Pokemon like Drapion, Meloetta, and Delphox from just blindly switching in and forcing it out. Although Vileplume does lose to two of the most common Fighting-types (emboar and machamp), it can still check Hitmonlee and Scrafty well especially when running Moonblast, and generally offers a lot of role compression in one slot.

Machamp -> A+ This is fairly obvious, but offense lost one of its best checks to Machamp in Cofagrigus, and as such there is significantly less counterplay for it on the most commonly scene archetype. Without Cofagrigus it is fairly difficult to fit a non-passive Pokemon on offense (outside of Garbodor) that can even switch into Machamp once, meaning the best way to check it is usually to sack something and take advantage of its low speed and only decent bulk to rk with a powerful attack. More defensive teams can still outlast Machamp if played smartly, however as a whole there is decidedly less counterplay to it in the metagame than there was previously.

Turtonator -> B This is a decently larger rise than the others previously mentioned, but I think it is warranted. Placing Turt in C is really underselling its capabilities. Although base 91 SpA is nothing crazy, Dragon / Fire STABS are actually unresisted, and this combined with the high BP of its attacks and the +2 boost from Shell Smash make Turtonator pretty fearsome for just about all archetypes. It's unique typing lets it take advantage and set up on a lot of prominent pokemon such as Choice Scarf Emboar locked into Flare Blitz or Specs Sceptile locked into Leaf Storm, and also prevents faster Choice Scarfers like Rotom-C from easily revenge killing it. Lastly, its tremendous physical bulk makes it very difficult to revenge kill with priority, and also lets it set up fairly easily in the face of powerful physical attackers like Sneasel and Drapion.

---
Drops

Slowking -> B+ Especially after Cofag dipping, Slowbro's ability to reliably switch into Machamp is valued at an all time high, and as such their is more opportunity cost when using Slowking, which cannot do so as easily. The extra special defense is still useful for checking Fires like Delphox and Charizard, but Slowbro's superiority in combatting physical attackers like Emboar, Machamp, and Barbaracle simply make it more valuable to teams most of the time.

Minior -> B- / C+ This Pokemon actually sucks. It has zero offensive presence before setting up and is completely reliant on getting into its offensive form before doing any damage. Minior is a pretty easy Poke to check without even specifically accounting for it, as commonplace pokemon like Steelix, Rhydon, and Slowbro can all easily check it defensively, and offensively it gets picked off by most priority attacks since its offensive form has absolutely awful defenses. The immunity to status when setting up is great, and it's STAB combo is menacing on paper, but in practice it is simply too weak and only situationally useful to be in the same rank as pokemon like Medicham and Incineroar. I would almost always rather use Barb anyway ;w;

Hitmontop -> B- Hitmontop feels like a "do-nothing mon" in a lot of the battles I have played with it. It's useful for checking Sneasel, however it despises losing Leftovers which makes it a pretty shaky answer. It gives up momentum way too easily to Pokemon like Meloetta, Delphox, and Vivillon for balance / offensive teams, and its lack of recovery means it will get overwhelmed in a lot of battles and won't perform its job efficiently. Hitmontop also wishes to run all of CC / Rapid Spin / Toxic / Foresight / Mach Punch / Earthquake, as depending on which moves it drops it either loses 1v1 versus the most common Spiker (garb), can't reliably spin versus teams with blockers, or is setup fodder for Pokemon like Vivillon, CM Delphox, CM Slowbro etc. In general Hitmontop struggles to keep up with the fast pace offensive nature of this metagame and its representation in B doesn't really reflect that.


Also support Sceptile to S, and Alolan Sandslash and Aurorus rising as well.