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Deleted User 400951

Banned deucer.
As Martin did bring up earlier, why is Gallade-Mega still B-? It's definitely not as good as Gyara mega and is honestly just way too niche for B-. Mew is falling off pretty badly. Drop Gallade-mega to C+ or even C.

Also, can we just unrank scolipede? It never sees usage anywhere and for damn good reason. I see no merit in using it over other spikes leads at all, Greninja in particular.

Yeah in general the upper ranks look good. I'd definitely back Mega Medi to A-. As a breaker people don't get that it is still pretty much impossible to wall while having great priority, it has synergy with the two best Tapus and pretty much ruins any balance core, moreso than Zard X, another breaker in B+.

I'd also back Fuck's Finchinator's nom of skarmory down. Stall is pretty much near dead. Let's face it. And not all of the few stall teams that actually still exist use it. It's not a staple at all, unlike the dug days. It fits absolutely nowhere outside of stall and honestly I wouldn't be opposed to it being B- in the least considering just how unsplashable and niche it is.

Also I'm not ending the bisharp hate train here and I'm nomming it to C+. It's just so bad in this meta. Like, it only fits on HO which isn't doing that well rn and even then it doesn't really fit on a lot of them Webs is dead and Gondra HO doesn't use it. It's just absolutely shit and I don't see the reason why we're being so slow in dropping it.

Finally yeah latios mega to C. Mega Evolutions don't have the same opportunity cost as they once did and it allows it to beat a lot of what would otherwise check it yadayada yeah Gary said what there was to say.
 
As Martin did bring up earlier, why is Gallade-Mega still B-? It's definitely not as good as Gyara mega and is honestly just way too niche for B-. Mew is falling off pretty badly. Drop Gallade-mega to C+ or even C.

Also, can we just unrank scolipede? It never sees usage anywhere and for damn good reason. I see no merit in using it over other spikes leads at all, Greninja in particular.

Yeah in general the upper ranks look good. I'd definitely back Mega Medi to A-. As a breaker people don't get that it is still pretty much impossible to wall while having great priority, it has synergy with the two best Tapus and pretty much ruins any balance core, moreso than Zard X, another breaker in B+.

I'd also back Fuck's Finchinator's nom of skarmory down. Stall is pretty much near dead. Let's face it. And not all of the few stall teams that actually still exist use it. It's not a staple at all, unlike the dug days. It fits absolutely nowhere outside of stall and honestly I wouldn't be opposed to it being B- in the least considering just how unsplashable and niche it is.

Also I'm not ending the bisharp hate train here and I'm nomming it to C+. It's just so bad in this meta. Like, it only fits on HO which isn't doing that well rn and even then it doesn't really fit on a lot of them Webs is dead and Gondra HO doesn't use it. It's just absolutely shit and I don't see the reason why we're being so slow in dropping it.

Finally yeah latios mega to C. Mega Evolutions don't have the same opportunity cost as they once did and it allows it to beat a lot of what would otherwise check it yadayada yeah Gary said what there was to say.
I fully agree with these nominations. Bisharp is super bad in the meta when it only fits on to two very niche play styles that both fell of badly. Drop it to c+.
Mew has really died down in usage, and the only thing Gallade has over Medicham is to break mew. I would drop it to C, but C+ is a start.
Scolipede is garbage, completely outclassed by greninja as a Spiker, and the swords dance set is a meme. Unrank this digimon.
No opinion on Skarmory.
Now for a nomination of my own.
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I nominate ferrothorn to S rank.
Wait, Hold your Knives and Pitchforks, I’m well aware Heatran and Volcarona exists. So, let me explain what makes ferrothorn, in my eye, worthy of S rank alongside. Landorus therian and toxapex.
Ferrothorn is number two on usage stats at snake, only losing to Landorus therian the king. It has also acheived a impressive 60% win rate out of 32 games, winning more than Landorus and toxapex.
This amount of usage is well justified, as ferrothorn hard counters one of the most dangerous Pokémon in the tier, Tapu Koko, along with other Pokémon like Swampert, Tapu Lele, and Both greninja forms. It is also one of the few mons that can keep rain in line. Ferrothorn can also be a pain to switch in to, as it has extremely powerful moves. It is an extremely splashable and consistent Pokémon that puts in work at almost every game.
Ferrothorn is also an amazing partner for Landorus therian and toxapex. Great defensive synergy between them lets them check a lot of the meta as well as form a hazard core.
These are facts. What’s happening in the meta?
Ferrothorn dodges broken toxic spikes that are used to wear down checks to cleaners and wallbreakers, making ferrothorn even more reliable at walling what it needs to. Ferrothorn is the best Spiker in the tier, and with how much teams appreciate spikes nowadays, it’s not uncommon to slap a ferrothorn on a team for spikes.
Ferrothorn also apprecitiates mew falling off in viability, making its hazards much easier to keep on the field. Latios is the most common hazard remover at the moment, and Ferrothorn does a great job keeping him at bay. Ferrothorn also appreciates stall falling off a lot, as that was one of the few matchups it was deadweight in.
Finally, Charizard Y balance has pretty much disappeared from the tier after the arena trap ban, one of the match ups Ferrothorn was a liability against.
Though I fully expect this nomination to be controversial, I believe these factors make Ferrothorn S rank.
Edit: After discussing this with a few people I no longer agree with S rank ferrothorn
 
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Ferro lacks reliable recovery so like 1 HP fire and you already lured ferro, ferro its not like toxapex that doesn't care about lures cause the pex has reg and there are plenty of ways to lure ferro.

Also zard y is getting worse but heatran is getting better so its not a great trade also its not that hard to lure ferro like lets see HP fire lele, fire fang mawile, HP fire specs Koko, superpower mega pert, superpower bulu etc

I think ferro is amazing but the lack of reliable recovery means probably it could easily get overwhelmed by cores like Ash ninja + bulu, etc.
 
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Shadowtex1

Yeah, I gotta say Ferro is phenomenal, but not S rank level. It just lets do much stuff in for free, Volcarona, Kartana, Heatran, Sub Volcanion, both Zards, Magearna, Zapdos... It is for sure a great Pokémon, but it is kind of an momentum drain, Toxapex meanwhile does have the same situation where it lets many stuff come in, but Toxic Spikes, Regen and Recover make it much easier for Toxapex to pivot around, while Ferro is rather not as comfortable switching around and getting worn down. Sure, even if the meta shifts were giving Ferro the upper hand, I feel like it's passiveness and overall lack of reliability to check stuff wouldn't allow it to go as high as S, A+ is perfectly fine. Also, the trends you mentioned were indeed true, but there are three notable shifts that really annoy Ferro, the first one being Kartana rose in usage, Ferro is literally Kartana food, as Kart comes in, SDs and Sacred Swords the hell out of Ferro, Volcanion also eats Ferrothorn for breakfast, while it can't get a sub versus it, Volcanion pretty much forces Ferro out, enabling it a sub as Ferro switches out, finally, Specs Koko can cleanly 2HKO Ferro with HP Fire, which is rather unfortunate for Thorn which would be a great check otherwise.

EDIT: forgot to talk about the biggest one btw, which is Zard-X's comeback, which is obviously pretty bad for Ferro.
 
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Shadowtex1

Yeah, I gotta say Ferro is phenomenal, but not S rank level. It just lets do much stuff in for free, Volcarona, Kartana, Heatran, Sub Volcanion, both Zards, Magearna, Zapdos... It is for sure a great Pokémon, but it is kind of an momentum drain, Toxapex meanwhile does have the same situation where it lets many stuff come in, but Toxic Spikes, Regen and Recover make it much easier for Toxapex to pivot around, while Ferro is rather not as comfortable switching around and getting worn down. Sure, even if the meta shifts were giving Ferro the upper hand, I feel like it's passiveness and overall lack of reliability to check stuff wouldn't allow it to go as high as S, A+ is perfectly fine. Also, the trends you mentioned were indeed true, but there are three notable shifts that really annoy Ferro, the first one being Kartana rose in usage, Ferro is literally Kartana food, as Kart comes in, SDs and Sacred Swords the hell out of Ferro, Volcanion also eats Ferrothorn for breakfast, while it can't get a sub versus it, Volcanion pretty much forces Ferro out, enabling it a sub as Ferro switches out, finally, Specs Koko can cleanly 2HKO Ferro with HP Fire, which is rather unfortunate for Thorn which would be a great check otherwise.
I'm with Exploudit on this one. Got sniped, but oh well.

Before I begin, I would like to say that a nomination to S-rank should not be done lightly. Criteria to S-rank are vague and therefore it can be tough deciding who gets it. But it's vague for good reason, as there's no one way to get into S-rank, and it's largely up to council discretion whether it goes through.

Generally, S-rank implies the nominee can perform well in spite of the meta warping against it, as well as warping the meta around it and being able to stand tall in spite of the meta trying to stop them; and doing this consistently is another bonus. For instance, even though all teams try to stop Lando-T in some fashion, he's still a phenomenal mon and can withstand the enemy's attempt to counter his abilities, and performs well on a consistent basis.

Ferrothorn does hold off enemies rather well, as you said. All of your points are good. The meta is in its favor. But I think the reason why Ferro shouldn't be in S-rank is because he can't really stand tall if the meta tries to stop him. It's a simple task to wear Ferrothorn down with either neutral attacks or with random Fire moves, and there's not much Ferrothorn can do to stay functioning consistently in spite of this.

Does this make sense? I'm trying my best to explain something using somewhat vague terminology. I can definitely see why you'd nominate Ferrothorn, but I disagree.
 
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Ferro lacks reliable recovery so like 1 HP fire and you already lured ferro, ferro its not like toxapex that doesn't care about lures cause the pex has reg and there are plenty of ways to lure ferro.

Also zard y is getting worse but heatran is getting better so its not a great trade also its not that hard to lure ferro like lets see HP fire lele, fire fang mawile, HP fire specs Koko, superpower mega pert, superpower bulu etc

I think ferro is amazing but the lack of reliable recovery means probably it could easily get overwhelmed by cores like Ash ninja + bulu, etc.
Ok, so I’m not opposed to hearing other thoughts on my nomination, this is just wrong.
First of all, most koko don’t run HP fire, as it has more important moves to run. Like, it’s not an impossibility, but it’s still rare and can be scouted. Hp fire lele is easily punished and predictable. Nobody would switch in Ferrothorn on Mawile and Tapu Bulu knowing that they always run fire fang and superpower, and Swampert with superpower can be played around with proper switching.
Edit:
I'm with Exploudit on this one. Got sniped, but oh well.

I should also add that a nomination to S-rank should not be done lightly. S rank implies the Pokémon is phenomenal in the meta, which isn't entirely true. Random HP Fires and a lack of recovery means that Ferrothorn won't be handling attackers as well as you'd like. In a meta where Greninja-Ash, Landorus-T, and random HP Fires all chip down Ferro rather quickly, it can only hold off enemies for so long

Ferro's good, but not great.
Shadowtex1

Yeah, I gotta say Ferro is phenomenal, but not S rank level. It just lets do much stuff in for free, Volcarona, Kartana, Heatran, Sub Volcanion, both Zards, Magearna, Zapdos... It is for sure a great Pokémon, but it is kind of an momentum drain, Toxapex meanwhile does have the same situation where it lets many stuff come in, but Toxic Spikes, Regen and Recover make it much easier for Toxapex to pivot around, while Ferro is rather not as comfortable switching around and getting worn down. Sure, even if the meta shifts were giving Ferro the upper hand, I feel like it's passiveness and overall lack of reliability to check stuff wouldn't allow it to go as high as S, A+ is perfectly fine. Also, the trends you mentioned were indeed true, but there are three notable shifts that really annoy Ferro, the first one being Kartana rose in usage, Ferro is literally Kartana food, as Kart comes in, SDs and Sacred Swords the hell out of Ferro, Volcanion also eats Ferrothorn for breakfast, while it can't get a sub versus it, Volcanion pretty much forces Ferro out, enabling it a sub as Ferro switches out, finally, Specs Koko can cleanly 2HKO Ferro with HP Fire, which is rather unfortunate for Thorn which would be a great check otherwise.
You both made some great points at both of you posts, but I want to defend myself with these points.
First, I know it’s true that S rank is something not many Pokémon can earn. However, I think Ferrothorn has a huge impact on the tier as well as the other s rank mons. Ferrothorn is the reason why so many teams are willing to run hp fire over other, generally more useful moves, like hp fire Tapu Koko. It is also one of the few carriers if broken spikes, especially with greninja getting worse. Spikes, along with its ability check like half the meta, makes Ferrothorn a staple on a lot of builds, especially offensive ones.
I don’t think Ferrothorn is as good as Landorus or Toxapex, but this doesn’t exactly mean that Ferrothorn isn’t worthy of S rank, Magearna rose to s rank for a while when Landorus therian was the only s rank mon. And, it’s pretty much universally agreed Landorus is better than Magearna.
Finally, Ferrothorn, while lures definitely exist for it, it’s still very good at checking what it does. I already pointed out how Ferrothorn can play around lures, especially with protect.
Finally, while Ferrothorn is indeed Kartana food, Toxapex is sub swords dance kartana food, and Defensive variants of Landorus are set up bait for kartana to an extent. I don’t think kartana should be the sole reason why something should or shouldn’t rise.
Edit: I no longer agree with Ferrothorn to S.
 
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AM

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Ferrothorn is easily overloaded defensively due to its necessity as a defensive check to mons such as ash ninja and koko among others, with one of these now famous for clicking volt switch and going into a ferro counter play. Latioswars comments is putting it nicely really when you look at the reality. Heatran is on so many teams and the increased usage of kartana is not good for ferro.

The key difference between pex and ferro since its a point of comparison is that pex has regenerator. Ferro is consistently on a timer in the face of what it tries to check/slow down, pex does not. There are some other attributes but these are kind of obvious so I would think.

I also dont think ferro is clearly above its A+ friends in the rank to where its a clear S mon. I dont like win rate arguments in tour and ladder because many of them are circumstantial on lots of other factors outside the mon itself, a reason why I prefer replays to examine team structure as well.
 
Ok, so I’m not opposed to hearing other thoughts on my nomination, this is just wrong.
First of all, most koko don’t run HP fire, as it has more important moves to run. Like, it’s not an impossibility, but it’s still rare and can be scouted. Hp fire lele is easily punished and predictable. Nobody would switch in Ferrothorn on Mawile and Tapu Bulu knowing that they always run fire fang and superpower, and Swampert with superpower can be played around with proper switching.
Edit:


You both made some great points at both of you posts, but I want to defend myself with these points.
First, I know it’s true that S rank is something not many Pokémon can earn. However, I think Ferrothorn has a huge impact on the tier as well as the other s rank mons. Ferrothorn is the reason why so many teams are willing to run hp fire over other, generally more useful moves, like hp fire Tapu Koko. It is also one of the few carriers if broken spikes, especially with greninja getting worse. Spikes, along with its ability check like half the meta, makes Ferrothorn a staple on a lot of builds, especially offensive ones.
I don’t think Ferrothorn is as good as Landorus or Toxapex, but this doesn’t exactly mean that Ferrothorn isn’t worthy of S rank, Magearna rose to s rank for a while when Landorus therian was the only s rank mon. And, it’s pretty much universally agreed Landorus is better than Magearna.
Finally, Ferrothorn, while lures definitely exist for it, it’s still very good at checking what it does. I already pointed out how Ferrothorn can play around lures, especially with protect.
Finally, while Ferrothorn is indeed Kartana food, Toxapex is sub swords dance kartana food, and Defensive variants of Landorus are set up bait for kartana to an extent. I don’t think kartana should be the sole reason why something should or shouldn’t rise.
You say that Ferrothorn has a huge impact on the tier as well as the other S-rank mons. A large impact alone doesn't guarantee a spot in S-rank. Otherwise, Dugtrio would have been there, and mons which have a "huge impact" such as Greninja (Ash or not) would be there as well. The key function behind viability rankings is to indicate, well, VIABILITY, not how big of a splash the Pokémon makes.

With that cleared up, I can address the rest of your post. All of it is well and true, Ferro is undoubtedly a good mon for these reasons. But you still haven't addressed the counterpoints (despite claiming to defend yourself against them) in that Ferrothorn gets lured/worn down too easily to stand tall as a truly "anti-meta" wall. You just say something like "Ferro gets lured, but he's the reason all the mons have fire moves in the first place." That's not really defending yourself, is it? It's more like keeling over to it. And you don't even mention why Ferrothorn can stay in S despite being worn down easily or despite lacking reliable healing.

If you address these, your arguments gets more convincing. This is stuff persuasive essay writing should teach.

In addition, your other statements are sort of "duh." Of course Kartana can setup on it, of course Ferrothorn can check "what it does." And apparently Ferrothorn can play around lures? But these are all sort of self-evident, and one of them repeats what you said earlier. Why does Ferrothorn deserve to go to S? This is the root question your argument needs to address.

You're not really addressing the counterarguments (or you're doing it in a very roundabout/vague fashion), and you're still not really giving us more information why Ferro should go to S in spite of these counterarguments.

Ferrothorn could very well become an S-mon, but if you're serious with the nomination, you need to provide better reasoning.
 

Deleted User 400951

Banned deucer.
With all due respect Shadowtex1 I don't believe that Ferro should be S. The reason Pex rose is while it's not as versatile as lando it single handedly makes balance dominant. Moving Ferro to S would be implying that either 1. It's extremely versatile, splash able and effective or 2. it single handedly pushes a play style to prominence, in a similar fashion to Pex and Lando-T. That's simply not the case. AM made some good points here, I feel as though his post has addressed a lot of the issues with Ferrothorn. It's relied on a shit ton to check a lot of attackers and while Protect is nice, it's not enough oftentimes. In addition Heatran is indeed still more popular than ever and so is Kartana. It's fantastic in this meta, yes, but putting it in S rank would imply that it's single handedly warped the tier around itself or a play style, or at least done something close enough to it to warrant a rise, when that's not true. It can only be so much worse than pex before it's clear that it's not S rank, and it is worse enough indeed (not saying that Ferro is bad, IDK how to word this).
 

Gross Sweep

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I hate beating a dead horse as this nomination is rightfully going nowhere, but I'm a bit bored so...

Ferrothorn while a very good mon in this tier, isn't by any means S ranked. Yes it has the advantages of being a bulky steel and access to a broken move in Spikes, but it's not enough to push this mon over the peak to S ranked glory given the disadvantges it faces. You mentioned it being a hard counter to Tapu Koko, and then listed off other mons it either just checks or hard counters in your mind - I wasn't sure based off the phrasing. HP Fire on Koko and Lele has been talked about already, and although you claim it's pretty easy to punnish the users for HP fire I'm a little miffed at that statement. Simply becasue you can't use Ferro as an initial switch in to Koko or Lele with this "I scout mons I hard counter" mentality, because if they predict your first switch in to the supposed "hard counter" and click HP Fire Ferro is crippled and in some cases just sack fodder for the rest of the game. Yes I admit I have used Ferro as my electric resist on a team (paired with a ground of course), but to just say Ferro hard counters Koko a few sentences into your post immediately took away your credibility in my eyes.

Another aspect that's been talked about is competition from other A+ ranked mons, and comparing Ferro to the likes of Lando-t and Toxapex. One thing I immediately notice when looking at the A+ rank is a multitude of good steels in Ferrothorn, Heatran, Magearna, and Celesteela. Now I don't know about anyone else but when I think of sheer "viability" or "betterness" or whatever term you want to use I just flat out don't see it when comparing Ferro to these other behemoths. Magearna has so much versatility that Ferro just flat doesn't have, Celesteela is a better psychic check as HP Fire Lele or even Fight-z sets are common enough I don't see Ferro as a "great" stop, Heatran is coming into its own breaking celepex cores giving balance fits, and Ferrothron is still putting in work hurting rain and laying spikes (and doing other things, pls don't retort on how it does so much more I'm just trying to be somewhat brief). Basically this boils down to Ferro being a great steel type, but there is just so much competition from other great steels that I just can't phatom letting Ferro rise to S ranked. Also when it comes to the S ranked mons: Landorus-T is in a league of its own in my eyes, and enough discussion on why Toxapex is better than Ferro has occured that I don't want to waste my time writing on it as most people will simply skip over it.

Anyway that's my thoughts on Ferrothorn going S ranked. As I said before it's a great splashable mon, but S rank just isn't where it belongs.
 
Ok, so hopefully this nomination will make more sense.
I nominate Mantine to B rank.
Mantine is in a worse spot than before. Tapu Koko is number two on usage statistics and has been having great success on tournaments. Charizard y teams are no longer popular, one of mantine a best selling points was the ability to hard counter charizard y. With Toxapex being basically mandatory on balance, mantine fits into less teams than before, as the two have bad synergy together. Rain usage has also died down a little. Mantine did have good usage at snake, I will admit, but it was used 11 times, and won a grand total 1 of them.
Mantine still does its job well, but the meta is not in its favor atm. I would like to hear others thoughts on the matter.
 
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Ok, so hopefully this nomination will make more sense.
I nominate Mantine to B rank.
Mantine is in a worse spot than before. Tapu Koko is number two on usage statistics and has been having great success on tournaments. Charizard y teams are no longer popular, one of mantine a best selling points was the ability to hard counter charizard y. With Toxapex being basically mandatory on balance, mantine fits into less teams than before, as the two have bad synergy together. Rain usage has also died down a little. Mantine did have good usage at snake, I will admit, but it was used 11 times, and won a grand total 1 of them.

Mantine still does its job well, but the meta is not in its favor atm. I would like to hear others thoughts on the matter.
I think that Mantine is still excellent in this meta, it does have some things going for it that Toxapex doesnt for example: Toxapex can not force out Heatran as reliably because of Earth Power, which, Mantine is immune to, Mantine does have to be wary about getting Toxiced however. It can also completely dismantle anything fat lando does; the most popular lando atm, which, Toxapex can't. Mantine is able to beat Volcarona way better than that Toxapex is, Toxapex is still a very good Volcarona check but as more and more start to run Psychic it gets really shaky (+1 252 SpA Volcarona Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 170-202 (55.9 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery). Yes, while ur right that Tapu Koko is rising and Zard Y is falling; Toxapex was also one of the main Zard Y walls that loses to Tapu Koko, i don't think this is a fair point. Mantine also has Defog which Toxapex doesn't, if u need a bulky Water-type and Defog then Mantine is an amazing mon to put on ur team.


Well to not make this a completely worthless post i'd like to drop my opinion on some of the recent noms.

-> C
Yes, i think this should definetly get ranked considering it is basically as Mega Garchomp; say u have filled ur 5 out of 6 teamslots and have a scarfer, a defogger, need to lure Steel-types, and dont have a mega, Latios looks nice... just run Mega Latios lol, there's not really an opportunity cost to it because u dont lose out on ur mega as u didnt have 1 in the first place, Mega Latios also gets considerable increased bulk and good offensive boosts. Yes i know this is very situational and all but that's why it should be C and not any higher.

-> C+/C
Bisharp, is... Bisharp aka terrible. and should definetly drop.
 
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mantine more reliably handles volcarona defensively than anything in the tier while also being a great bulky water to handle things like greninja, keldeo, zard-y, rain, etc.. yeah, zard-y is declining, but rain is still seeing decent usage: it wasn't too long ago that lucha rain started to get popular, and i don't think it's already started to die off lol. also, mantine provides something extremely valuable in defog: there really isn't enough hazard removal in the tier given how many amazing spikers there are (greninja, ash greninja, toxapex, ferrothorn are all extremely good and easy to splash on teams). mantine is able to reliably defog while being immune to spikes. the rocks weakness is kinda annoying, yeah, but i don't think it's that big of a deal.

i want to even further emphasize how important it is that mantine is able to defensively check volcarona reliably: this means you aren't restricted to running a 101+ scarfer (which at this point is basically latios or keldeo) for volcarona. hell, if your team is especially volc weak, you're sorta limited to keldeo and some not-so-good options (nihi, garchomp, terrakion...). mantine isn't a fundamentally amazing pokemon or anything due to it being really passive and rocks weak, but it allows for more open teambuilding due to checking some top tier threats (greninjas, volcarona, keldeo) and some annoyances (rain, zard-y) in one. if you need hazard removal and don't want to run a specific scarfer (or payapa berry pex), mantine is a great choice still.

also i strongly believe mantine is a good level above fini (which only recently droped), alo, gastrodon, rotom-w, and suicune among other things in B rank.

i'll also briefly say that i 100% agree with the points brought up regarding a mega latios rise and a skarmory drop.

also ferro for S is just hilarious. Shadowtex1 looking at your recent nominations in the thread, it seems like you are just nominating for the sake of nominating. this isn't a "callout" or whatever... it just seems like you're making a bunch of controversial nominations with really loose supporting arguments for the sake of doing so. i think most ppl have a couple of opinions about viability that might be different than the norm, but i don't think they all need to be voiced. in this ferrothorn post, you made it clear that you knew this would be controversial and not supported. i think it's a good idea to think "why would this not be supported?" in those cases since this usually answers the question for you. you also seem to focus some arguments on usage, when usage isn't as big of a factor as you (and many others in the VR thread) make it out to be. i think usage is a fine factor for saying something like "x pokemon handles y, which is a super common threat" since that is pretty important. i also think usage is good for something new: Gary cited snake games for mega latios because it is basically a new latios set that stems from those snake games. usage is clearly worth considering as a factor in VR, but when the bulk of your argument boils down to usage stats, it probably isn't that great of one. hopefully this can help you (and others) with picking your arguments and structuring them in order to be effective.
 
This isn’t exactly a in depth post or anything, but after hearing Starrybalnkets great post and others, I would like to retract My nominations about Ferrothorn and Mantine. So, before I go lurking, I would like to make some quick nominations.
Altaria mega to c-. We all know how this mega is hot garbage, and that shows with its little usage. I understand usage isnt everything, but when no players in a high level tournament are using it, you know something is wrong. The same applies to the ladder to, lack of usage and success. Bulky steels are on every team and many have two or more. Altaria is like Buzzwole where it requires a very high amount of support for very little reward. Magnezone is basically mandatory, along with poison lures, and hazard control. In return, you gain a Pokémon who does pretty much nothing except for sweeping very unprepared teams, and more teams ate prepared to fight it than lose to it. Drop this duel monster to c-.
Alakazam to UR.
This has been brought up before, and I completely agree with it. Alakazam is also like Buzzwole isn’t he sense it is so outclassed its never worth using. It’s only “viable” set is very predictable and doesn’t consistently revenge kill volcarona, magearna, or tyranitar mega, the three most threatening sweepers atm. Any team that needs countermeasures against set up sweepers would rather run actually reliable countermeasures, like scarfers and defensive counters. It also has lack of usage and success. Plz UR Mt garbage.
Terrakion to c+.
Why. Is. This. Still. C+.
Ok, I understand that this thing is very reliable at revenging Salamence, volcarona, tyranitar, and others, but the only actually relevant threats that terrakion revenge kills are tyranitar mega and volcarona. Terrakion was used once at snake and lost. I agree with Gary, the first guy who brought this up, that Nihilego is a better scarfer. Sure, Nihilego is not too hard for most teams to switch in to, but it actually does something productive when your opponent goes to their check by setting up broken toxic spikes, while terrakion can’t really do much to its checks other than double switch. Double switching however, can be applied to every Pokémon in the tier. Stealth rocks is a relic of The early meta that has no reason to be used over lando or garchomp. Drop Terrakion to C+.
 

Finchinator

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Alakazam to UR.
This has been brought up before, and I completely agree with it. Alakazam is also like Buzzwole isn’t he sense it is so outclassed its never worth using. It’s only “viable” set is very predictable and doesn’t consistently revenge kill volcarona, magearna, or tyranitar mega, the three most threatening sweepers atm. Any team that needs countermeasures against set up sweepers would rather run actually reliable countermeasures, like scarfers and defensive counters. It also has lack of usage and success. Plz UR Mt garbage.
Unranking regular Alakazam would be a mistake, in my opinion. I believe that it is far from where it used to be in ORAS, where the LO set was a great addition to balanced teams, but it still remains viable overall. I do agree that the amount of usage it sees is quite low, but there is still merit to using Sash Alakazam on a Spikes bulky-offensive or balanced team, as shown here and here (yea, the latter is a loss, but my point is that teams like this are very much viable currently). Sure, these are just two random Snake/OLT games showcasing an individual build with Alakazam and I will admit to not personally using the Pokemon since the very start of the generation, but I do believe that it serves a similar purpose to what it generally does in terms of being a threat later in games and taking advantage of its ability in conjunction with Speed and Special attacking stats. Finally, there is some niche with Counter being utilized on the Sash set and this cannot be forgotten when discussing the viability of Alakazam. While I do not rate regular Alakazam highly right now, I do think that is it as very least good enough to remain in C rank for the time being.

I'm not going to respond to the rest of your posts or some other recent ones for the time being, but I will say that Ferrothorn has no place whatsoever in S rank and I do not believe we are considering this prospect currently.
 
Unranking regular Alakazam would be a mistake, in my opinion. I believe that it is far from where it used to be in ORAS, where the LO set was a great addition to balanced teams, but it still remains viable overall. I do agree that the amount of usage it sees is quite low, but there is still merit to using Sash Alakazam on a Spikes bulky-offensive or balanced team, as shown here and here (yea, the latter is a loss, but my point is that teams like this are very much viable currently). Sure, these are just two random Snake/OLT games showcasing an individual build with Alakazam and I will admit to not personally using the Pokemon since the very start of the generation, but I do believe that it serves a similar purpose to what it generally does in terms of being a threat later in games and taking advantage of its ability in conjunction with Speed and Special attacking stats. Finally, there is some niche with Counter being utilized on the Sash set and this cannot be forgotten when discussing the viability of Alakazam. While I do not rate regular Alakazam highly right now, I do think that is it as very least good enough to remain in C rank for the time being.

I'm not going to respond to the rest of your posts or some other recent ones for the time being, but I will say that Ferrothorn has no place whatsoever in S rank and I do not believe we are considering this prospect currently.
I suppose you are right on the alakazam matter. I would also like to state that I changed my mind on Ferrothorn to s and mantine to B, as I said in my post.
That being said, would a drop to c- be out of the question? It still doesn’t fit on to a whole lot of teams, and I feel it’s much more niche than the rest of c rank, except for gliscor, but I would support those mons dropping to.
 
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Finchinator

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OU Leader
I suppose you are right on the alakazam matter. I would also like to state that I changed my mind on Ferrothorn to s and mantine to B, as I said in my post.
That being said, would a drop to c- be out of the question? It still doesn’t fit on to a whole lot of teams, and I feel it’s much more niche than the rest of c rank, except for weavile and gliscor, but I would support those mons dropping to.
Considering most of C- is either basically ranked on name value despite seeing no usage (see: Mega Gardevoir, Slowbro, Talonflame) or a sporadically effective meme (Porygon-Z being the main one), I feel like it shouldn't drop as that would be misrepresenting something that can at least merit serious use. However, I (or Gary) will bring it up to the VR Council if there is more support in the thread.
 
Why hello people, so this will be my 1st ever post on the VR so hopefully I don't sound like a dumbass. :p

I'm going to suggest ranking Mega Sceptile up to perhaps C- rank from unranked. It is inferior to Mega Diancie in the aspect that it doesn't function well against stall, but what most people don't know is you can run Nature Power on Mega Sceptile. To me, it functions very similarly with Mega Diancie as an all-out attacker. What it has over Mega Diancie is that it's base 145 speed, outrunning shit like Mega Lopunny, Tapu Koko and Ash Greninja and it also 4x resists Water Shuriken. It also has base 145 base spatk so if a player can lure out mainly AV Magearna, it is very difficult to wall.

This would be the set I've been using mainly just for fun.



Sceptile-Mega @ Sceptilite
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Dragon Pulse
- Nature Power
- Hidden Power [Fire]

This set makes Sceptile very hard to wall imo as outside of AV Magearna & fuck Chansey (which can be lured with multiple other things outside of just Z-Wild Charge Tapu Koko), not many things in OU can eat up hits from these 4 moves. HP Fire is self explanatory for Mega Scizor & Ferrothorn, Nature Power via Electric Terrain gets turned into Thunderbolt to score surprise kills on Toxapex and Celesteela, 2 very irritating things in OU and this allows it to or even Psychic via Psychic Terrain to pick off Mega Venusaur if it is weakened.

252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Celesteela in Electric Terrain: 282-332 (70.8 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex in Electric Terrain: 180-212 (59.2 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Psychic vs. 248 HP / 156+ SpD Venusaur-Mega in Psychic Terrain: 218-258 (60 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Lastly, just to prove I'm not talking out of my ass, I managed to get some replays of me using my Mega Sceptile teams. The teams do work for me at the higher end of the ladder, the highest of these was a 1850 ELO game.



Hope this was an interesting read lol. Let the hate rain down on me for this crap lmfao.
 
Why hello people, so this will be my 1st ever post on the VR so hopefully I don't sound like a dumbass. :p

I'm going to suggest ranking Mega Sceptile up to perhaps C- rank from unranked. It is inferior to Mega Diancie in the aspect that it doesn't function well against stall, but what most people don't know is you can run Nature Power on Mega Sceptile. To me, it functions very similarly with Mega Diancie as an all-out attacker. What it has over Mega Diancie is that it's base 145 speed, outrunning shit like Mega Lopunny, Tapu Koko and Ash Greninja and it also 4x resists Water Shuriken. It also has base 145 base spatk so if a player can lure out mainly AV Magearna, it is very difficult to wall.

This would be the set I've been using mainly just for fun.



Sceptile-Mega @ Sceptilite
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Dragon Pulse
- Nature Power
- Hidden Power [Fire]

This set makes Sceptile very hard to wall imo as outside of AV Magearna & fuck Chansey (which can be lured with multiple other things outside of just Z-Wild Charge Tapu Koko), not many things in OU can eat up hits from these 4 moves. HP Fire is self explanatory for Mega Scizor & Ferrothorn, Nature Power via Electric Terrain gets turned into Thunderbolt to score surprise kills on Toxapex and Celesteela, 2 very irritating things in OU and this allows it to or even Psychic via Psychic Terrain to pick off Mega Venusaur if it is weakened.

252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Celesteela in Electric Terrain: 282-332 (70.8 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex in Electric Terrain: 180-212 (59.2 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Psychic vs. 248 HP / 156+ SpD Venusaur-Mega in Psychic Terrain: 218-258 (60 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Lastly, just to prove I'm not talking out of my ass, I managed to get some replays of me using my Mega Sceptile teams. The teams do work for me at the higher end of the ladder, the highest of these was a 1850 ELO game.



Hope this was an interesting read lol. Let the hate rain down on me for this crap lmfao.
As somebody who used Mega-Sceptile A LOT in ORAS OU and made the probably most popular Mega-Sceptile team, I can tell you that it's main niche is gone. It used to get in for free against rotom and start breaking teams with its nice coverage and then clean lategame. Nowadays rotom, while viable is a rare sight and doesnt warrant Sceptile's use. Unfortunatly I dont believe Nature Power to be the saving grace either as it still gets walled by a lot, although I do believe it to be the best coverage option right now. Double Tapu is also a huge commitment and you dont always have the terrain out that u need.

I believe that your team can be improved as well but I'm not gonna go into detail here. Perhaps with better replays one could make a case for Mega-Sceptile to C- I'd love to see it make a small comeback :)
 

zbr

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Lastly, just to prove I'm not talking out of my ass, I managed to get some replays of me using my Mega Sceptile teams. The teams do work for me at the higher end of the ladder, the highest of these was a 1850 ELO game.

as much as im a mscep lover, i have to say those replays showed nothing at all.

all it showed was sceptile being on the team and occasionally showing it's face. what did nature power thunderbolt achieve in game 2 that eq would have not achieved? interesting concept but like za warudo above me said, the team needs a lot of tinkering and the replays dont match with what you want to push for mscep to rise in VR.
 
Bisharp is not terrible, in hazard stacking/balance teams it pairs well with spikes users because after switching in on Defog (which is much more common than Rapid Spin) it can hit very hard. (it also works well on webs teams but those aren't the most relevant archetype at the moment). It's not perfect because it's slow and can be checked very well by some mons (Lele and Landorus-T particularly). It's not completely useless outside of it because it can wallbreak with SD too.

Calcs:

+2 252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 319-376 (80.1 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 228-268 (62.8 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leech Seed recovery
+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Fini: 246-291 (71.7 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kartana: 231-273 (89.1 - 105.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Fini: 246-291 (71.7 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 240 HP / 156 Def Mew: 350-414 (87.2 - 103.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

leave it in B-, that's where it fits best - not good enough for B, not bad enough for C+

EDIT:
+2 252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur: 288-339 (79.3 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leech Seed recovery
 
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Bisharp is not terrible, in hazard stacking/balance teams it pairs well with spikes users because after switching in on Defog (which is much more common than Rapid Spin) it can hit very hard. (it also works well on webs teams but those aren't the most relevant archetype at the moment). It's not perfect because it's slow and can be checked very well by some mons (Lele and Landorus-T particularly). It's not completely useless outside of it because it can wallbreak with SD too.

Calcs:

+2 252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 319-376 (80.1 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 228-268 (62.8 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leech Seed recovery
+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Fini: 246-291 (71.7 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kartana: 231-273 (89.1 - 105.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Fini: 246-291 (71.7 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 240 HP / 156 Def Mew: 350-414 (87.2 - 103.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

leave it in B-, that's where it fits best - not good enough for B, not bad enough for C+
So uhh, a 2hko on Steela isnt enough lol ur just gna get chunked by Flamethrower, same case with mvenu u just get eq'd, tapu fini calc 2 times but just to say >>tapu fini in 2017<< also kartana that doesnt straight sacred sword lol also staying in on mew to get burned indeed very smart. just to say that these arguements are most definetly flawed...

anyways

def going to agree on a skarmory drop to B- or maybe even C+, when do u ever use this over like steela or ferrothorn lol.. i mean yes, role compression and thats it, outside of that it isnt as good as it once was as stall was the only playstyle it was always usable on, it fits on some balance teams but its rly hard to fit over smthn like steela.
 
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