Metagame SM Ubers General Metagame Discussion

I disagree, I think that hazard control is more necessary than ever due to lati@s nerf which buffed sticky. Sticky is inherently anti-offense playstyle that any decent offense team must be able to deal with.
 
I agree sticky web is an extremely anti-offense playstyle but with the lati nerf it becomes significantly more difficult to fit hazard control on teams. Previously lati could switch into a multitude of threats such as pogre and pdon and threaten them to give it room to Defog. However now Latios is soundly 2hkoed by Ice Beam from pogre and offensive pdon no longer has to fear being OHKOed or put in range of certain priority. There are few mons that fill its role on offense, gira-o being too slow and weak to offer much resistance to hyper offense and dd defog mence needing to forgo earthquake or facade and in some cases you need to chose between defogging or giving a threat an extra turn to setup. Looking back on oras hazard control on offense wasn't all that common to begin with, Magic Coat/Taunt deo-s and spinners such as exca and cloy being the primary ways to prevent hazards and then relying on hard hitters to pressure hazard setters. Outside of suicide leads lati was more or less the only other hazard control offense had, and was needed due to how good klefki was vs offense, as it could status everything on offense and proceed to stack spikes. With both klefki and lati nerfed there's less reason to run reliable hazard control while the best defogger on offense is also obsolete. If sticky web is truly a problem I could see offense builds in general changing to not rely so much on removing webs, whether by running more speed on don/xern to outspeed more stuff at +1 or a shift to using more mons that don't really care about webs (yveltal, mence, and solgaleo come to mind).
 
If offense did use hazard control (and it wasn't a suicide lead) it'd generally be defog lati and there was also stuff like defog lati on bo allowing supportceus to run max utility
 
So I've been trying to figure out how to make a good Zygarde Complete. Would a 10% be better for a speedy coil into 100% or would 50% be better to insure surviving but at the cost of a slower coil? What nature or evs would you run?
 
So I've been trying to figure out how to make a good Zygarde Complete. Would a 10% be better for a speedy coil into 100% or would 50% be better to insure surviving but at the cost of a slower coil? What nature or evs would you run?
Definitely the latter option. 10% simply doesn't survive hits in this metagame.

Coil sets are generally phys def to take on Ekiller and offensive Pdon better.
 
Definitely the latter option. 10% simply doesn't survive hits in this metagame.

Coil sets are generally phys def to take on Ekiller and offensive Pdon better.
So you'd run max hp/def with coil or potentially hp/max special def and proceed to dragon tail everything? Or instead even trapper with waves and proceed to set up on something with rest.
 
Zygarde should be 252 HP / 252 Def / Impish, because teams will be using it to check physical threats.

I think the two best Zygarde sets are Coil mono-attacker and Phazer, both with Rest and Sleep Talk. Obviously the Phazer will want hazard support, and the Coil will want some people to deal with Fairies.
 
Zygarde should be 252 HP / 252 Def / Impish, because teams will be using it to check physical threats.

I think the two best Zygarde sets are Coil mono-attacker and Phazer, both with Rest and Sleep Talk. Obviously the Phazer will want hazard support, and the Coil will want some people to deal with Fairies.
You can still run some speed on Zygarde to get the drop on min-speed 90s like support Pdon, which only requires 44 speed EVs which you take out of HP. You'll still easily check the many physical threats in the tier, regardless.
 
Zygarde should be 252 HP / 252 Def / Impish, because teams will be using it to check physical threats.

I think the two best Zygarde sets are Coil mono-attacker and Phazer, both with Rest and Sleep Talk. Obviously the Phazer will want hazard support, and the Coil will want some people to deal with Fairies.
I'm a pretty big fan of my DD set with resto Chesto. With 152 speed EV's, after a Dragon Dance you outspeed timid base 130's, most notable mega gengar, meaning its no long scares you out. Subtitute is also great for getting into power construct easier and avoid status moves, the substitute will be fast with DD and have a lot of HP, so it can take weaker hits.

I do like slower glare zygards as you can cripple things like Xerneas if they to switch it in immediately.
 
Primal Kyogre's newfound dominance of the meta certainly isn't helping Ho-Oh's case, either.

Speaking of Primal Kyogre, that thing is an absolute savage right now. How the hell do defensive teams beat this thing besides using Pdon? Even with Pdon, Pogre's simply gonna keep chipping it with Ice Beam when it comes in until it dies to a +1 Ice Beam, and then what do you do?
 
Primal Kyogre's newfound dominance of the meta certainly isn't helping Ho-Oh's case, either.

Speaking of Primal Kyogre, that thing is an absolute savage right now. How the hell do defensive teams beat this thing besides using Pdon? Even with Pdon, Pogre's simply gonna keep chipping it with Ice Beam when it comes in until it dies to a +1 Ice Beam, and then what do you do?
Ogre is that good again? This excites me greatly...

Still isn't Palkia a decent solution vs Ogre still?
 
Ogre is that good again? This excites me greatly...

Still isn't Palkia a decent solution vs Ogre still?
252 SpA Life Orb Palkia Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 231-273 (57.1 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Palkia: 144-170 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO

Palkia might have trouble with some of the other special attackers like Xern, you can try a assault vest to serve as a better check to primal kyogre and maybe sponge a few attacks from other meta threats.

252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Palkia: 96-114 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- 28.2% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Palkia: 260-308 (80.9 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Palkia: 142-169 (44.2 - 52.6%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Gengar-Mega Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Palkia: 102-120 (31.7 - 37.3%) -- 84.8% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Lunala Moongeist Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Palkia: 108-127 (33.6 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
 

Manaphy

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Don't bother with assault vest, Palkia's viable set is the Psychium Heal Block one. For Palkia, it's niche is strongly resisting Origin Pulse and always being faster than POgre and forcing it out. It's OK that you don't like taking Thunders too much because you'll also have another POgre check with PDon on your team.
 
how good is Solgaleo as an attacker outside of checking Xerneas. I tried out CB and am a bit dissappointed. Scarf Lunala is an amazing mon to have on offense as late game cleaner, especially if paired Ekiller or CM DarkCeus
 

I guess you could say it's... time... to bring Dialga back into relevance.
This thing's movepool (while it didn't get anything new) is relatively well adapted for dealing with our new Darkceus overlords; access to moves like Aura Sphere, STAB Draco Meteor (or Dragon Pulse), Earth Power, Fire Blast, STAB Flash Cannon, Ice Beam, Power Gem (Niche), Thunderbolt, and also was boosted up wonderfully by access to Z-Moves (I see some cool niches, even as a weather setter once Pdon / Pogre are taken care of). Not to mention access to Stealth Rock, and Roar. Being a Dragon with a neutrality to Fairy and a way to nail it Super Effectively with your STAB + coverage to nail the omnipresent Dark types doesn't hurt either. Has anyone else come up with some good sets for this thing yet? I want to see some love for one of my favorite dragons in an Ubers metagame that feels like it could really shine in.
 
So are we going to get back Swagger in Ubers now that it and Prankster were nerfed this gen and already unbanned in OU?
 

Aaronboyer

Something Worth Fighting For
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So are we going to get back Swagger in Ubers now that it and Prankster were nerfed this gen and already unbanned in OU?
It isn't going to be unbanned. This is because Swagger is still purely luck based and is an underhanded strategy that doesn't build what Ubers or any Smogon-Tier promotes, which is a balanced and skillful meta.

Blue Jay's statement from 2014 put it like this:
There have been several incidents of considerable dissent between users, and while I would not defend public hostility that begins to cross over into bullying that has on occasion resulted from the use of this strategy, it should be evident that swagger is toxic both to competitive play and to the community.
 
It isn't going to be unbanned. This is because Swagger is still purely luck based and is an underhanded strategy that doesn't build what Ubers or any Smogon-Tier promotes, which is a balanced and skillful meta.
So is it going to be rebanned in OU then?
 

Aaronboyer

Something Worth Fighting For
is a Contributor to Smogon
So is it going to be rebanned in OU then?
It isn't going to be unbanned. This is because Swagger is still purely luck based and is an underhanded strategy that doesn't build what Ubers or any Smogon-Tier promotes, which is a balanced and skillful meta.

Swagger is likely to remained banned in all tiers. It seems that you've only made a total of 2 posts. Those posts were both made in the last 25 minutes. Check out some of the resources found here on Smogon, and on Pokemon Showdown. They will help you understand why we have things in place such as a Swagger Clause.
 
It isn't going to be unbanned. This is because Swagger is still purely luck based and is an underhanded strategy that doesn't build what Ubers or any Smogon-Tier promotes, which is a balanced and skillful meta.

Swagger is likely to remained banned in all tiers. It seems that you've only made a total of 2 posts. Those posts were both made in the last 25 minutes. Check out some of the resources found here on Smogon, and on Pokemon Showdown. They will help you understand why we have things in place such as a Swagger Clause.
I don't think you are understanding what he is saying. Currently, Swagger is not banned in the OU beta metagame so he is asking whether or not it will be banned in the future.
 

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