SM UU Viability Ranking Thread Mk. II

Status
Not open for further replies.

ehT

:dog:
is a Contributor Alumnus
Changes:
Latias: A+ → S

One need look no further than Latias' astounding success rate in UUPL to see that it's one of the most defining threats in the tier by a large margin. The combination of bulk, typing, Speed, coverage, and the ability to run multiple viable Z-Moves make it threatening to every team in some form, and gives its Calm Mind set only two true counters in the situational Metagross and Unaware Clefable. This also renders most offensive counterplay moot, since the majority of faster Pokemon can't KO it, meaning something often has to be sacked for it to be put in range of a fast Pursuit / U-turn. All this together means that it definitely belongs with the likes of Scizor and Clefable.
Volcanion: A- → B+

Rocks weakness + the amount of competition Volcanion has as a Water-type really hold it back. It's ridiculously strong, and Water Absorb is nice, but the things it wants to switch in to either have a secondary STAB to hit it with or can just U-turn out, compromising its defensive utility, especially compared to Primarina, M-Blastoise, and Keldeo.
Venomoth: C- → B

A Pokemon that's flown under the radar until its recent success in UUPL, Venomoth is a lot more potent than previously thought. Surprisingly easy to set up and has no trouble outspeeding everything not holding a Choice Scarf at +1. Tinted Lens and Z-Moves more than make up for its lackluster typing, as well.
Snorlax: C+ → B-

The addition of reliable recovery via Recycle + Iapapa Berry really helps Snorlax keep pace with this far more offensive meta, since it's far less passive than Rest sets. Having a free moveslot for Earthquake or Fire Punch is really nice, too.
Mega Sharpedo: A+ → A

Was one of the most menacing threats at the start, but the tier has come to adapt, making it far easier to check. Every team now packs reliable checks that tend to have recovery, meaning that a lot of work has to be done for it to reliably clean like it used to. The rise of Conkeldurr and Mega Blastoise in recent weeks doesn't do it any favors, either.
Nidoking: B → B+

An absolute menace versus balance and bulky offense. Its options for a filler move (Thunderbolt, Flamethrower, Sucker Punch, Superpower, Substitute) also make it a headache to reliably scout, and that's on top of the given threat of Sludge Wave + Earth Power + Ice Beam. Its select few 100% counters are also extremely passive, meaning the sky's the limit as far as predictions go once you've accounted for those.
Metagross: C+ → B-

With its Assault Vest set being one of the few true Latias counters available, Metagross has a very viable niche over Scizor and Bisharp. Being a Steel-type that doesn't instantly lose to Fire coverage thanks to its natural bulk is also really nice. Mixed sets with a resistance Berry (usually Shuca, but Colbur also works) also make it a great glue for teams desperate for a check to M-Aerodactyl, Bisharp, Sharpedo, etc.
Decidueye: B- → C+

For the same reason that it dropped before. It has nowhere near as good a matchup versus stall as it used to, and its depressing Speed tier + piss weak priority (it fails to OHKO Swellow at +2) + Pursuit being on every other team mean it'll just drop most of the time versus offense. Really tough to justify over other stallbreakers.

We also decided to clean up C- a bit:
Gardevoir unranked
Umbreon unranked
Kingdra unranked
Rotom (Heat) unranked

Discussion Points:
Gastrodon: B → B-
Mienshao: B → B-
Forretress: B- → C+
Hippowdon: A → A-
Moltres: Unranked → C-
 
Last edited:
So, looking at Mienshao, it's main issue i can see is it's just so annoyingly frail. 65/60/60 is frankly awful for defensive stats for an offensive pokemon even, and that just makes it susceptible to a lot of priority, and hell, even trying to switch in the first place doesn't seem that easy at all either at that point. Sure, it can deal damage when it does get in, i won't deny that, but choice-locked fighting moves just don't feel safe in this tier considering what the pokemon that could take advantage of that are (Gliscor, Latias, Togekiss, Clefable, and hell, even Gengar are some of these Pokemon) and it's coverage moves just are not strong and invite even more things to just switch in on them. Also, why would you ever use Choice Scarf Poison Jab, that sounds like utter awfulness and begging for so many things to switch in when it only really hits Primarina and Togekiss reasonably (referencing the analysis here and being baffled why you would use the move at all in this case)

The main positives i can think of is that it does hit hard, and can clean up weakened teams pretty damn well while also putting good pressure on teams that don't run anything to handle fast Fighting-type pokemon, but i don't think that counteracts the fact it just feels liek it's not worth really using with it's lack of any bulk and not sitting in a good enough speed-tier to compensate for that fact ( and also it's lack of power outside of High Jump Kick)
 
Nice ranking update, but there are a few points I would like to discuss.

1. Why has Hippo not dropped to A- yet? I'm pretty sure there was enough reason given in the other UU thread as to why hippo deserves to drop, if Volcan deserves to drop out of a full rank then hippo definitely deserves to drop a sub rank.

2. Why was Umbreon unranked? Isn't it a really good special wall with nice support options such as Wish and Heal Bell? I've seen the Foul Play/Wish/Heal Bell/Toxic set put in work, if Umbreon gets the boot then Slyveon deserves to go too.

3. I'll say it again, Hydreigon deserves A, when you're able to 2hko like 80% of the tier with one move and kill or at least decently chunk the other 20% with coverage then you deserve to be higher up. Scarf kills offense and specs kills everything that's not a bulky steel or a fairy. Sure, it's speed is kinda meh and the -2 special attack drop can leave it to be set up fodder, but remember that shit like Scizor and Bisharp still get OHKO'ed and 2HKO'ed by fire blast even after the drop respectively and even stuff like Col gets chunked by about 60% minimal if it tries to set up.

4. Moltres C-, yes. This thing can really hurt shit with life orb or specs, it speed isn't that bad either. The only real problem I have with it is hurricane's 70% hit rate and the stealh rock weakness but it's not like it's going to be that high up anyways.

That's it really, would've liked to see some of the unranks stay, but whatever. Keep in mind these are just points for discussion, not really looking for an argument, I don't have the time.

P.S, Please organize the ranking update so that rises and drops are in separate sections and the rises and drops are in alphabetical order, like so:

Rises

A+ => S

(And Lati was originally A+ not A)
B => B+
C- => B
C+ => B-
C+ => B-


Drops

A+ => A

A- => B+
B- => C-





 
Nice ranking update, but there are a few points I would like to discuss.

1. Why has Hippo not dropped to A- yet? I'm pretty sure there was enough reason given in the other UU thread as to why hippo deserves to drop, if Volcan deserves to drop out of a full rank then hippo definitely deserves to drop a sub rank.

2. Why was Umbreon unranked? Isn't it a really good special wall with nice support options such as Wish and Heal Bell? I've seen the Foul Play/Wish/Heal Bell/Toxic set put in work, if Umbreon gets the boot then Slyveon deserves to go too.

3. I'll say it again, Hydreigon deserves A, when you're able to 2hko like 80% of the tier with one move and kill or at least decently chunk the other 20% with coverage then you deserve to be higher up. Scarf kills offense and specs kills everything that's not a bulky steel or a fairy. Sure, it's speed is kinda meh and the -2 special attack drop can leave it to be set up fodder, but remember that shit like Scizor and Bisharp still get OHKO'ed and 2HKO'ed by fire blast even after the drop respectively and even stuff like Col gets chunked by about 60% minimal if it tries to set up.

4. Moltres C-, yes. This thing can really hurt shit with life orb or specs, it speed isn't that bad either. The only real problem I have with it is hurricane's 70% hit rate and the stealh rock weakness but it's not like it's going to be that high up anyways.

That's it really, would've liked to see some of the unranks stay, but whatever. Keep in mind these are just points for discussion, not really looking for an argument, I don't have the time.
I don't use Hippo or Moltres enough to comment on those so will leave that to more experienced users. The thing with Umbreon though is that as a special wall it's just not that convincing, it falls to stuff like Keldeo and even +1 Z-D-Meteor from Latias will leave a big dent on it
(+1 252 SpA Latias Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 255-300 (64.7 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery). Even with Foul Play its still kind of passive and Cobalion and Terrakion will love every opportunity to get a switchin and boost (especially Terrakion seeing as it doesn't have too many anyways). The Sylveon comparison is imo not a good one because Sylveon actually has a good defensive typing and is not completely passive thanks to Hyper Voice which also prevents random mons with Substitute from setting up on it and dodging status as well as getting good coverage. Keep unranked imo

I would be ok with Hydreigon moving up to A though, considering a lot of teams are running checks for Latias a lot of those checks get bopped by Hydreigon, which swaps Calm Mind and unpredictability on Z-Attacks for U-turn, better bulk, actual Fire coverage, and a (somewhat gimmicky) Clefable lure with Z-Iron Tail, and not getting locked into Pursuit/Sucker Punch mindgames. Hydreigon beats a lot of Latias checks, including AV Meta and Latias.

edited out bit about Z-Iron Tail as ProfessorMasterChief said in their post below. I have mainly used Scarf and LO Hydra so I didn't know if Z-move was a thing. That's probably another plus point, that it can break past Clef without running a Z-move.
 
Last edited:
(since i think this is eht's first time hosting it aint gonna be perfect so constructive criticism without rudeness would be nice!!!!!)

but also ya reasoning would be good for the unranks, even just like a brief sentence or two.

umbreon probs dropped bc blissey is just so much better as a special wall in almost every aspect, especially with primarina moon blasting everything in sight. Foul play is a nice niche tho so maybe it can just live in C- since the deterrence towards physical set up can be pretty important

Hippowdown can def drop, its a bit too passive and kinda has 4MSS, as you need EQ, rocks, slack off, and you want stone edge, toxic and whirlwind (even ice fang) all at once :/ Its also hard to choose between full phys def or mixed, bc as a ground type u want it to be able to reliably check raikou, but also the more mixed u go, the easier it is to get chipped and then overwhelmed by things like sd bisharp and scizor etc.

in terms of gastrodon like what even was its niche? water absorb + slow curse set up? it loses to toxic from stall so it cant be considered a stall breaker. tbh a specs set with storm drain could be a nice meme but other than that i can see it dropping too. I think people have previously said it already but it also invites in latias a bit too easy, even if it runs toxic

Also thoughts on Scizor dropping to A+? i might be getting a bit confused with chicken/egg but i feel like at this point its so prepared for that it often cant be too much of a threat to a solid team? SD sets are scary, or just sets that aren't leftovers aka u don't know the item, but bulky SD sets need too many boosts to reliably sweep a non-weakened team, and offensive ones have very little defensive utility. perhaps the necessity of packing scizor checks makes it an S threat but idk. while it does check top threats like Mega Aero and clef, it does in turn get checked by things like cobalion, keldeo, gliscor etc.
 
(since i think this is eht's first time hosting it aint gonna be perfect so constructive criticism without rudeness would be nice!!!!!)

but also ya reasoning would be good for the unranks, even just like a brief sentence or two.

umbreon probs dropped bc blissey is just so much better as a special wall in almost every aspect, especially with primarina moon blasting everything in sight. Foul play is a nice niche tho so maybe it can just live in C- since the deterrence towards physical set up can be pretty important

Hippowdown can def drop, its a bit too passive and kinda has 4MSS, as you need EQ, rocks, slack off, and you want stone edge, toxic and whirlwind (even ice fang) all at once :/ Its also hard to choose between full phys def or mixed, bc as a ground type u want it to be able to reliably check raikou, but also the more mixed u go, the easier it is to get chipped and then overwhelmed by things like sd bisharp and scizor etc.

in terms of gastrodon like what even was its niche? water absorb + slow curse set up? it loses to toxic from stall so it cant be considered a stall breaker. tbh a specs set with storm drain could be a nice meme but other than that i can see it dropping too. I think people have previously said it already but it also invites in latias a bit too easy, even if it runs toxic

Also thoughts on Scizor dropping to A+? i might be getting a bit confused with chicken/egg but i feel like at this point its so prepared for that it often cant be too much of a threat to a solid team? SD sets are scary, or just sets that aren't leftovers aka u don't know the item, but bulky SD sets need too many boosts to reliably sweep a non-weakened team, and offensive ones have very little defensive utility. perhaps the necessity of packing scizor checks makes it an S threat but idk. while it does check top threats like Mega Aero and clef, it does in turn get checked by things like cobalion, keldeo, gliscor etc.
I didn't really feel like I was being rude, but if I did come off as rude then I apologize.

I also agree with Scizor to A+, it's kinda on the same boat as Bisharp due to the fact that it is a really good mon but there is just too much shit that deals with it and people are so prepared for it. I never liked the "Oh it's 4X weak to this type, it must suck!" argument but when all you need to deal with scizor is HP Fire on bascally any pokemon not weak to steel with a special attack stat over, like 70 then you have a problem. Also it's SD set is not as good as people think, sure it can easily sweep on weakened teams but it's sweep stops cold when common stuff like Keldeo and Cobalion and even metagross to an extent come out and force it to U-Turn out. And also another thing, Bug Steel is a piss poor offensive typing.

Also, can anyone explain to me why Keldeo isn't like, the Primal Groudon of UU by this point, what's holding it back, Celebi?
 
Last edited:
I would be ok with Hydreigon moving up to A though, considering a lot of teams are running checks for Latias a lot of those checks get bopped by Hydreigon, which swaps Calm Mind and unpredictability on Z-Attacks for U-turn, better bulk, actual Fire coverage, and a (somewhat gimmicky) Clefable lure with Z-Iron Tail, and not getting locked into Pursuit/Sucker Punch mindgames. Hydreigon beats a lot of Latias checks, including AV Meta and Latias.
I just wanted to point that Iron Tail is rather pointless for hitting Clef, since standard Clef sets get 2hko'd by flash cannon anyway assuming you're not Scarf. You don't really need to make something that 2hkos nearly the entire tier into a lure, especially since Flash Cannon has better accuracy, 2hkos all relevant Fairies except Klefki, which can't switch into Fire Blast, and Primarina, which gets worn down pretty easily, and doesn't require Hydreigon to cut its solid bulk. Hell, I'm not really a fan of Z move Hydreigon in general since it already can 2hko nearly every viable wall, Z moves neuter its overall damage potential, considering the fact that outside of work up and charge beam, which I don't recommend since you have to drop coverage or roost, hell even taunt would be better. Hydreigon can't really break as well as it would like to without orb or specs, and it would be better to use the z move on something that actually needs it to break through teams, like Cobalion. I don't necessarily disagree with a rise btw, since Hydreigon is if anything harder to switch into this gen since more Klefki run phys def, and Clefable is much easier to pressure with Flash Cannon than Sylveon. Really with the exception of Primarina, who switches in once if hazards are clear, btw I recommend using Hydra with spikes, since a lot of its switch ins can easily get worn down by them, dark resists need to be careful switching in, since things like Cobalion, Terrakion, Keldeo, Bisharp, Clefable, and Kelfki lose if they switch into the wrong move. I do agree that Latias being the premier dragon to prepare for does help since things like Gross get bopped by dark pulse, and while Hydreigon now has to deal with the fact that its speed isn't top tier like in ORAS, its still enough to be usable, being faster than most defensive threats, again playing into its role of a breaker, along with being a great offensive check to Bisharp and Sharpedo, both of which can potentially cause problems for offensive teams. While I'm fine with it staying in A-, I've personally had more success with it than any other A- mons, so I do overall support it going to A.

Edit: I agree with the post below, I have used Arcanine a few times, and unless you keep hazards off at all times, it has difficulty walling anything, and the fact that it is forced to recover so often makes it pretty easy to take advantage of. Idk maybe someone has had more success, but at least to me it falls short of C+, which contains things that I would actually be able to justify using on a serious team, where as I would only use Arcanine for the fun, if you even find it fun (I don't).
 
Last edited:
Can someone explain to me what keeps Arcanine in C+? the thing is overall trash with the negatives greatly overshadowing the few positives it can muster up, Morning Sun is immediately nullified if a Hippowdon is on the opposing team, it brings in and is set-up fodder for the likes of Clefable,Latias,Gliscor and if lacking Wild Charge many of the tiers premier water types can take advantage of it such as Keldeo,Volcanion,Primarina,MegaStoise,Starmie etc. Intimidate while cool is not nearly as useful as it could with what Arcanine switches into with Scizor just U-Turning out and other physical attackers still capable of 2hkoing or ohkoing especially with rocks.
 
Can someone explain to me what keeps Arcanine in C+? the thing is overall trash with the negatives greatly overshadowing the few positives it can muster up, Morning Sun is immediately nullified if a Hippowdon is on the opposing team, it brings in and is set-up fodder for the likes of Clefable,Latias,Gliscor and if lacking Wild Charge many of the tiers premier water types can take advantage of it such as Keldeo,Volcanion,Primarina,MegaStoise,Starmie etc. Intimidate while cool is not nearly as useful as it could with what Arcanine switches into with Scizor just U-Turning out and other physical attackers still capable of 2hkoing or ohkoing especially with rocks.
BECAUSE IT'S A DOG THAT CAN SET SHIT ON FIRE

In all seriousness I think it's mainly Intimidate that keeps it ranked that high, also it stops Scizor harder then a 18 wheeler stops a Mini Cooper which is nice. And it can act as a sort of lure for stuff like Prim and Aero with Z-Wild Charge and kill them if the attempt to set up.

But yah, it isn't that good, if it gets unranked at some point I probably wouldn't be that surprised.
 
BECAUSE IT'S A DOG THAT CAN SET SHIT ON FIRE

In all seriousness I think it's mainly Intimidate that keeps it ranked that high, also it stops Scizor harder then a 18 wheeler stops a Mini Cooper which is nice. And it can act as a sort of lure for stuff like Prim and Aero with Z-Wild Charge and kill them if the attempt to set up.

But yah, it isn't that good, if it gets unranked at some point I probably wouldn't be that surprised.
Z-Wild Charge really isn't a viable option considering Z-Thunder Punch Infernape is so much better as a lure for bulky Water-types, since it has the space for Swords Dance and a much better offensive typing (neutrality to Stealth Rock is also nice). Marogod also just said that Arcanine seems like a decent stop to Scizor on paper, but really can't adequately check it unless it's the last Pokemon on the opposing team due to U-turn on the switch.

While I'm on the topic of Infernape, I'd like to suggest that it rises to A-. Infernape's honestly such an amazing Pokemon right now, and should be represented as the tier's best Fire-type in rising above Volcanion. Its Choice Scarf set is even better than before given Terrakion's entry into the tier, since alongside Mega Sharpedo, Cobalion, Krookodile, Raikou, Hydreigon, and Celebi, it just has another huge threat that it's capable of adequately covering. Alongside an extremely consistent Choice Scarf set is loads of offensive versatility given its amazing SD, NP, and mixed sets, which always leaves opponents guessing and due to its various checks between each sets, eases prediction of switch-ins and allows for more reliable setup opportunities. Overall, Infernape's ability to check two of the metagame's biggest threats in Bisharp and Scizor, act as an amazing revenge killer of just about half the mons in S through A-, and possess so much offensive versatility that mispredicting its set is beyond enough in my eyes to justify a rise, especially considering it feels about as viable and consistent to me as Klefki, Starmie, Mega Blastoise, and Swampert. Hope you guys agree! :)
 
Can someone explain to me what keeps Arcanine in C+? the thing is overall trash with the negatives greatly overshadowing the few positives it can muster up, Morning Sun is immediately nullified if a Hippowdon is on the opposing team, it brings in and is set-up fodder for the likes of Clefable,Latias,Gliscor and if lacking Wild Charge many of the tiers premier water types can take advantage of it such as Keldeo,Volcanion,Primarina,MegaStoise,Starmie etc. Intimidate while cool is not nearly as useful as it could with what Arcanine switches into with Scizor just U-Turning out and other physical attackers still capable of 2hkoing or ohkoing especially with rocks.
Honestly, it's people who don't really know much about the UU meta that are really using Arcanine I believe, and overhyping how much that being a good on paper Scizor stop it is (it's a good thing, but it's not nearly enough). Otherwise, yeah, it's just.... mediocre. It has a not very good recovery move, it's typing leaves it able to be broken through by a lot of physical sweepers still, and it can't really do anything back to much teams besides stopping a few pokemon.

also, gonna repost something that was in the other thread, as a kind of call to drop down Cresselia:

TBH, if you want to kick Necrozma down from c+, I would say that Cresselia should go down too because quite honestly, i don't see what it does that warrants being used like, really at all. It's even worse then Necrozma to use IMO because it just... sits there, and can't really hit back all that hard to stop things from doing what they want. Calm Mind is honestly done better by things that aren't as weak as it (like Latias and Clefable), who also have not shoddy recovery moves (Moonlight is just not that good of recovery option, considering it only has 8 PP and is screwed by hail and sand). I guess just a generic bulky set with T-Wave, Moonlight, and 2 attacking moves is okay, but still, it's passive as fuck and just takes hits while not doing much of anything, which feels just bleh and not something i would want to use.

I mean, i'm not trying to say here that Necrozma is really that good. I use it and like it, but i acknowledge it has basically almost nothing over Mew when compared to it aside from a better ability that helps it tank super effective hits and power behind it's moves without boosting. I just don't see how you can really rate Cresselia over it when Cresselia has a harder time actually doing anything noteworthy on a team. If someone wants to prove me wrong, then fine, but i just don't see it at all
 
Last edited:

Amane Misa

Bring Them Home Now!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Mienshao: B → B-: Agree
Mienshao is not as good as it used to be in the beginning of the meta. Since we got Clefable, everybody is spamming this fat monster. When Mienshao's best attack to hit it does only 45.1% max you know you are not going anywhere with it. Other drops than Clefable are Gliscor and Gengar, both prevent Mienshao from spamming its most powerful move. I used to ran Toxic on my Mienshao so I could catch Hippowdon and wear it down, but as you probably know, Toxic doesn't affect those three. Even with those three, Mienshao is still threatening, thus I don't think it should drop further.

Forretress: B- → C+: Agree
I really don't like Forretress in this meta. Most threats it's supposted to check have coverage for it (Clefable has Flamethrower, Latias has HP Fire / Z-Attack, Mega Aerodactyl has Fire Fang, etc.) so it's not good in that sense. It is not even good in checking Scizor, Bisharp and Krookodile - Scizor constantly U-turns on it, forcing it to take hazards and U-turn damage, Bisharp Knocks Off its potential Leftovers, its only recovery and Forretress gets worn down quickly and Krookodile easily shuts down Forretress with Taunt. It's not even good of a hazard setter because its so easy to taunt it and most hazards removers beat it 1v1. It's also not even a reliable hazard remover itself, as I said, it is worn down pretty quickly and doesn't have that many opportunities to spin. Yes it has a good defensive typing, access to every form of hazard in the game and Rapid Spin but c'mon, it's just bad in the current metagame.

Moltres: Unranked → C-: Agree
I wrote a huge post about it here so I will try to make it short.

On the offensive side: Primarina-level power, good STAB combination, many switch-in opportunities (assuming no rocks), two powerful STAB moves and U-turn surely make it worth having a spot in the viability ranking.

On the defensive side: Good typing, 90/90/85 bulk, average speed, Will-O-Wisp, Roost, Defog, Toxic, Whilrlwind and U-turn. Faces competition with Talonflame though.


BECAUSE IT'S A DOG THAT CAN SET SHIT ON FIRE

In all seriousness I think it's mainly Intimidate that keeps it ranked that high, also it stops Scizor harder then a 18 wheeler stops a Mini Cooper which is nice. And it can act as a sort of lure for stuff like Prim and Aero with Z-Wild Charge and kill them if the attempt to set up.

But yah, it isn't that good, if it gets unranked at some point I probably wouldn't be that surprised.
Arcanine is weak to rocks, gives Bisharp a Defiant boost, not so fast and has a pretty bad method of recovery. Did I forget anything?

If you insist of using a Fire type to stop Scizor, you're better off going with a bulky Infernape, which completely outclasses Arcanine. Over Arcanine, it is faster, has Stealth Rock, Taunt, Slack Off and it doesn't give Bisharp a Defiant boost.

Even then, both Infernape and Arcanine aren't that great so...

Hmm... also... does someone mind explaining me why is Shuckle C+? After using Shuckle for a while, I ranted about it here, if you wanna read it...
We all can agree that Shuckle is a really unique Pokémon. On one hand, it is one of the two Pokémon that have access to both Stealth Rock and Sticky Web, making it an exceptional lead and is quite bulky. Not only that, it has support options such as Encore and Toxic. It can Encore an opposing Rapid Spin user or Defog user, supporting its teammates, set-up sweepers. It has a great ability that every suicide lead wishes to get, Sturdy, means it does not have to sacrifice its item slot to survive any one hit.

On the other hand, being honest, it's a pretty bad lead. It's really passive and the only thing keeping it from being a complete set-up fodder is Encore (even then, you have to predict perfectly since Shuckle is slow as hell). Its only two forms of actually damaging the opponent is by passive damage dealt by Toxic or Infestation, which means that Pokémon can set-up a free Substitute on it. Not only that, it's really weak to taunt users. Mental Herb is a mandatory item on Shuckle, to guarantee at least one form of hazard.
 
Mienshao: B → B-: Agree
Mienshao is not as good as it used to be in the beginning of the meta. Since we got Clefable, everybody is spamming this fat monster. When Mienshao's best attack to hit it does only 45.1% max you know you are not going anywhere with it. Other drops than Clefable are Gliscor and Gengar, both prevent Mienshao from spamming its most powerful move. I used to ran Toxic on my Mienshao so I could catch Hippowdon and wear it down, but as you probably know, Toxic doesn't affect those three. Even with those three, Mienshao is still threatening, thus I don't think it should drop further.

Forretress: B- → C+: Agree
I really don't like Forretress in this meta. Most threats it's supposted to check have coverage for it (Clefable has Flamethrower, Latias has HP Fire / Z-Attack, Mega Aerodactyl has Fire Fang, etc.) so it's not good in that sense. It is not even good in checking Scizor, Bisharp and Krookodile - Scizor constantly U-turns on it, forcing it to take hazards and U-turn damage, Bisharp Knocks Off its potential Leftovers, its only recovery and Forretress gets worn down quickly and Krookodile easily shuts down Forretress with Taunt. It's not even good of a hazard setter because its so easy to taunt it and most hazards removers beat it 1v1. It's also not even a reliable hazard remover itself, as I said, it is worn down pretty quickly and doesn't have that many opportunities to spin. Yes it has a good defensive typing, access to every form of hazard in the game and Rapid Spin but c'mon, it's just bad in the current metagame.

Moltres: Unranked → C-: Agree
I wrote a huge post about it here so I will try to make it short.

On the offensive side: Primarina-level power, good STAB combination, many switch-in opportunities (assuming no rocks), two powerful STAB moves and U-turn surely make it worth having a spot in the viability ranking.

On the defensive side: Good typing, 90/90/85 bulk, average speed, Will-O-Wisp, Roost, Defog, Toxic, Whilrlwind and U-turn. Faces competition with Talonflame though.




Arcanine is weak to rocks, gives Bisharp a Defiant boost, not so fast and has a pretty bad method of recovery. Did I forget anything?

If you insist of using a Fire type to stop Scizor, you're better off going with a bulky Infernape, which completely outclasses Arcanine. Over Arcanine, it is faster, has Stealth Rock, Taunt, Slack Off and it doesn't give Bisharp a Defiant boost.

Even then, both Infernape and Arcanine aren't that great so...

Hmm... also... does someone mind explaining me why is Shuckle C+? After using Shuckle for a while, I ranted about it here, if you wanna read it...
I was just listing the reasons why I think it is in C+, I never said it was good.
 
Moltres: I could see a case being made for moltres to rise, but obviously not because of an offensive set, where talonflame or even tornadus is just better. A defensive set though, has much more usefulness given pressure, or even flame body to serve as one of the best scizor counters in the tier. I don't have much more to say, but considering it might be the only good scizor counter that can stop uturn, and with pressure can annoy things like clefable, I guess C rank is fine.

Forretress: It remains consistently ok in all areas of the game. It has good pivoting capabilities, all hazards, spin, and options for coverage like custap explosion and hp fire that can surprise a lot of players. That said, it is not nearly as good as 90% of the other B- mons, so I'm on the fence.

Hippowdon: It's not quite as good as gliscor or mew for example who can do what it does to a large degree and then some, plus it can even be a detriment with residual sand storm damage, or you have to choose a useless ability.

Gastrodon: I think there's enough offensive water types in the tier to keep the thing where it is. At the same time, they all tend to have coverage that beats this passive mess of a pokemon. In the end though, the difference between B and B- is so negligable that it makes me wonder why I'm even making a post about this.

Hydreigon: Honestly every offensive dark type should just be in the A ranks. The typing is that good.

Scizor: uturn is just too good and has very little stops, which is why I advocate shitty flame body pokemon all the time. Besides that, when you're beating all the S mons (to some degree) and uturning out on almost everything that tries to check you, you're probably good enough for S. Bullet punch invalidates so many things, too. Anything frail and unresisted is going to be 2hko'd.

Arcanine: again, scizor check. I don't see why it's bad enough to not be C besides that. Defensive fire types are really good when they have recovery. This is one of the stronger ones too which makes it better against clefable in a way, and mono fire means it counters alola ninetales. Why not just keep it in C+?

Also this is unrelated but Amoonguss has been used 7 times in the last UUPL week and has a 100% winrate js.
 

Amane Misa

Bring Them Home Now!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Also this is unrelated but Amoonguss has been used 7 times in the last UUPL week and has a 100% winrate js.
You have a point there. It's an amazing pivot: a great bulk, typing and Regenerator. Arguably the best Keldeo and Clefable counter, two metagame defining Pokémon. It has a lot to offer to many teams - for stall and balance it has Spore and Clear Smog and for bulky offense it has Spore and Stun Spore. It is also one of the best Eject Button users.

From full it can take almost any one hit - Life Orb Latias' Psyshock, Primarina's Psychic, Mega Blastoise's Ice Beam, Mega Aerodactyl's Wing attack, etc. and pivot from there.

I dunno, before you mentioned it I had no feelings towards Amoonguss' place in the viability ranking but now, thinking about it, I believe it deserves A-.
 
Last edited:
You have a point there. It's an amazing pivot: a great bulk, typing and Regenerator. Arguably the best Keldeo and Clefable counter, two metagame defining Pokémon. It has a lot to offer to many teams - for stall and balance it has Spore and Clear Smog and for bulky offense it has Spore and Stun Spore. It is also one of the best Eject Button users.

From full it can take almost any one hit - Life Orb Latias' Psyshock, Primarina's Psychic, Mega Blastoise's Ice Beam, Mega Aerodactyl's Wing attack, etc. and pivot from there.

I dunno before you mentioned it I had no feelings towards Amoonguss' place in the viability ranking but now, thinking about it, I believe it deserves A-.
Can anyone tell me where to find the winrate for UUPL mons please? I can't quite seem to find it.

And yah the shroom deserves A-, it's bulk allows it to almost always get a spore off and stopping the water pony in it's tracks is pretty good too. like why is it B+ when it's high A- in OU lol.

Was there even any solid reason as to why it was only B+ in the first place?
 

pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
NewfieDude

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/uupl-v-replays-stats.3600503/

That thread is user friendly and you can see the win rates easily by clicking on the hide tags.

That said, I would caution against solely using that number as an indicator for viability (which nobody has done so good for us) as:
  • Win % can be distorted if same mon is used by both players in a game
  • Just because it was on the winning side does not mean the mon contributed to the win
  • And vice versa, just because it was on the losing side does not mean the mon did not contribute greatly
  • Not all games are of the same quality
On balance though I definitely agree having a higher win % is good for viability. But you're not really ever going to be on balance / get all things equal so it's good we have discussions on other indicators of viability.
 

SPACE FORCE meeps

LAW & ORDER!
is a Tiering Contributoris a Past SCL Champion
hello!!!!!!!!!

i know conkeldurr was risen not too long ago in the other viability ranking thread, but i think it still deserves to be higher (b+ for sure, maybe a-)

now that people are using the good set, conkeldurr is proving itself to be one of the meta's most potent wallbreakers. here is the good set for reference:

BODYBAG BONGRINE (Conkeldurr) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 72 HP / 252 Atk / 184 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Facade
- Bulk Up / Knock Off


facade is far better than any other coverage options because the change in damage output is for the most part neglible in regards to other coverage options, e.g. clefable 2hko by both facade and poison jab, amoonguss 2hko by both facade and ice punch, togekiss ohko by ice punch and facade 87.5% of the time (mach punch kills afterwards always), etc., so facade can be used instead of using two coverage moves. only thing it misses by using facade over ice punch is that gliscor can't be ohko'd, but facade still does solid damage to it anyways. facade is also ridicously spammable, as it's stronger than neutral drain punch, ghosts are rare, every rock-type and most steel-types in the tier die to a combination of facade + mach punch, thus making conkeldurr an absolute menace to try and play around, especially for bulkier teams (it's capable of singlehandedly dismantling some stall teams). conkeldurr is also quite effective against offensive teams too, as many of the common dark-types are either unable to ohko conkeldurr, or get ohko'd by mach punch in return, so conkeldurr can pressure switches against these pokemon, and potentially nail potential switch-ins like latias or primarina with facade.
 
I agree that Flame Orb Conkeldurr is actually really good and amazing in the meta UU has right now, but your set.... I don't feel like leaving yourself with no way of hitting Ghost-types is a good idea at all, especially when facing Gengar, which would just absolutely love to be given a free Sub that your set with Bulk UP would give it every time. I know Pursuit users have weakened Gengar's viability, but you still don't want to be giving it a guaranteed free switch like that.

But yeah, otherwise, Flame Orb Conkeldurr is just really good and pretty much, you can just click facade after being burned, and generally just hurt something pretty well and thus, not have to worry about predicting with moves like Ice Punch or Poison Jab, which is always a plus in my book. Plus, Mach Punch actually becomes super nice for cleaning up considering it actually has some reasonable power behind it, and it also helps with it revenge killing stuff that is neutral to it (don't have specific cases here sadly, but i know from experience how good it is). And Knock Off is just generally useful for removing Lefovers and other items from walls so it's easier to break them, and it also means you aren;t fucked by Ghost-types. I think it would work in B+ personally.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ehT
Arcanine: again, scizor check. I don't see why it's bad enough to not be C besides that. Defensive fire types are really good when they have recovery. This is one of the stronger ones too which makes it better against clefable in a way, and mono fire means it counters alola ninetales. Why not just keep it in C+?
Could you please elaborate how defensive Fire-Types are really good in the current meta with the threats that are common? Also while Arcanine is a Scizor check why it should stay C+ despite the fact there are far better are more splashable Scizor checks in the tier.

Edit@Reply - It is a niche category yes however when you are worse then the whole of it as well as lower ranked mons you deserve to drop despite the seemingly good niche on paper being tragic in practice so i still don't see how it "fits the bill" compared to other C+ Pokemon capable of being more then a wasted slot.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: ehT

Amane Misa

Bring Them Home Now!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Could you please elaborate how defensive Fire-Types are really good in the current meta with the threats that are common? Also while Arcanine is a Scizor check why it should stay C+ despite the fact there are far better are more splashable Scizor checks in the tier.
Mainly, Defensive fire types are really good because they can counter Scizor and Clefable (also Bisharp to an extent), three metagame defining Pokémon. It's also really cool to have the ability to spread burns.

EDIT: Heavily pressure Clefable, not counter it
 
Last edited:
Could you please elaborate how defensive Fire-Types are really good in the current meta with the threats that are common? Also while Arcanine is a Scizor check why it should stay C+ despite the fact there are far better are more splashable Scizor checks in the tier.
I said fire types with recovery, and arcanine is one of the only intimidate mons in the tier making it useful in checking a whole bunch of other things that are not scizor. (it does not counter clefable, it barely even checks it, but that's besides the point). C+ is basically just niche category, and arcanine fits that bill.

Also lol amoonguss: I didn't even nominate it to rise I was simply sharing something I found curious because i couldnt really make a post anywhere else just for that. It will never rise on spl usage alone.
 
Umbreon can operate defensively really well in our current meta with the only set it has. Blissey is not able to perform the same role due to Psyshock on Latias, Clefable is a physical wall, Togekiss (who could also wish to friends) is rocks weak, Espeon is very frail on the physical side and tend to be pursuit trapped (although magic bounce could still be enough niche imo). Florges/Sylveon are bad atm. All of these lack foul play.
C- is fair tho, but it should definitely be ranked imo.

What Could go unranked is Silvally which seems to have 0 effect on the current meta (although SD+Flame charge+Multi-attack
+filler could have gotten some replays this far to prove it)

On this week discussion points I only have enough to say about gastrodon: should probably stay where it is, the reasonings for it haven't changed and access to recover makes swampert envious.

Arcanine is the only wild charge user we have.
 
Nom for Suicune to move to B+. Even when stated its not as good as oras this thing is still so heavily under prepared for, forcing so many ground types out easily getting this thing a cm boost and can proceed to late game sweep. Celebi is less common, decideye's and tsareena is afraid of scald(unless uncommon aromatherapy) and aero/clef varients/sciz all struggle to break it depending on set. Ability to check these mons and become an unprepared scary wincon should be enough to set it to at least B+.
 
This Pokemon is being completely ignored and I think its the biggest threat going around. PZ is a bit underrated in OU, I've used it a fair bit and once you remove the scarf EQ on the other team things become simpler.


Porygon2 @ Normalium Z
Ability: Download
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe (228 speed is acceptable just to beat 110s)
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Conversion
- Ice Beam
- Recover

This Pokemon sweeps or stalls out the entire S and A rank 1v1, with the exception of CM Clef and Scarf Krook (Jolly Scarf Krook EQ does 71.3 - 84.8% so you still beat it). Also sweeps most of B rank bar about 5 Pokemon. 311/324/339 defenses with only one weakness lets you stall out most threats.

Ideally you want to +2 boost to break through Hippo and Amoongus but against offensive teams you can still manage to sweep with +1.

I pair it with CB Metagross which forces Clefable out and also 2hkos Swampert with Zen Headbutt. It also pressures Blissey and Amoongus with pursuit.

+2 252 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Hippowdon: 356-420 (84.7 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Amoonguss: 364-430 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 SpA Porygon2 Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 195-231 (49.4 - 58.6%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Porygon2 Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 304-358 (88.3 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Porygon2 Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar: 240-283 (91.9 - 108.4%) -- OHKO after Rocks
+1 252 SpA Porygon2 Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cobalion: 247-292 (76.4 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Common scenario. The opponent's Aero, Lati, Gliscor, Prim, Scizor, Raikou, Bisharp, Hydreigon, Blastoise, Starmie, Tentacruel, Volcanion (thats just S-B+) kills your Pokemon and you bring in your P2, then the opponent immediately switches an offensive check such as Conk, Keldeo, Cobe, Terrakion, Infernape, Gengar.

You OHKO all of them at +2, but not Terrakion and Conk at +1.

252+ Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Porygon2: 234-276 (75.2 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Never OHKOs after rocks
252+ Atk Guts Burned Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Porygon2: 154-183 (49.5 - 58.8%).
252 Atk Cobalion All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Porygon2: 177-208 (56.9 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So you beat your most popular offensive checks.

Blissey and an Amoongus above 85% are the biggest issues, but other than that P2 generally does its job fairly easily.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 2)

Top