SM UU Viability Ranking Thread Mk. II

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Toxicroak B- C+
Infernape can really do much of what toxicroak does, with versatility in running a physical or special set with swords dance or nasty plot. Infernape has better priority with it being stab, and an ability to boost it. Infernape has similar moves to toxicroak with fake out, earthquake, gunk shot, thunder punch, setup moves, and much more. I generally feel like they can do similar things but infernape can do it better.
 
Toxicroak B- C+
Infernape can really do much of what toxicroak does, with versatility in running a physical or special set with swords dance or nasty plot. Infernape has better priority with it being stab, and an ability to boost it. Infernape has similar moves to toxicroak with fake out, earthquake, gunk shot, thunder punch, setup moves, and much more. I generally feel like they can do similar things but infernape can do it better.
I'd agree with that. Toxicroak's biggest niche is hard countering suicune sets that only run scald to attack.
 

Hilomilo

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Mega Swampert to S: Agree Mega Swampert has emerged as an extremely influential Pokemon, and is among the tier's best Mega Evolutions. I quite frankly see no problem in ranking it alongside Mega Aerodactyl at this stage in the metagame. Its Rain Dance set poses such a gigantic threat to offensive teams, as its answers are pretty much limited to Celebi, which only requires some chip damage to be picked off by Ice Punch, Choice Scarf Latias, which can't OHKO it from full and hates Ice Punch as well, and Buzzwole, which can use SubPunch to wear Mega Pert down, but fears getting flinched by rain boosted Waterfall, which can prevent Buzzwole from functioning as a method of merely adequately chipping this monster. It also has been seeing some success with its Stealth Rock set, due to the ability to easily force switches to reliably set up entry hazards, while also matching up against opposing leads in Azelf, Hippowdon, and Terrakion really well thanks to its typing and insane tanking capabilities. Overall, the combination of fantastic physical bulk and power and the extreme versatility between two very reliable sets compels me to believe that right now, Mega Swampert is more than deserving of placement up in S.

Chandelure up to B-:
Agree The rise of SubPunch Buzzwole really benefits Chandelure in that by virtue of its Infiltrator ability and resistance to the Bug/Fighting/Ice coverage that set usually runs, it can function as one of the metagame's most reliable offensive checks to one of the biggest thorns in the archetype's side. Alongside heavily pressuring Buzzwole, Chandelure can pressure stall teams with its SubCM set that has been gaining some well deserved traction as of late, and can match up against other tier staples in Cobalion, Scizor, and Mega Beedrill fairly well. Between adequately dealing with stall, pressuring a few mons that offense often tends to struggle with, and leaving opponents guessing as to whether its SubCM or Choice Scarf, I feel that Chandelure is starting to pose much more of a threat in this meta and has a lot more incentive to be used than when it was dropped down to C+.

I'd also like to voice support for some other noms that I don't feel are as necessarily controversial. Toxicroak should honestly drop to C rather than C+, as it faces immense competition from both Infernape, who already sits two subranks above it, and Lucario, which has better priority attacks to abuse and a more convenient typing for setup, yet sits in C+ when I truly believe that it deserves at least a rank above Toxicroak. As for other reasons it should drop, Toxicroak just straight up loses to a lot of the Water-types that you'd think it could check, such as Primarina, Starmie, both Swamperts, Volcanion, Gastrodon, etc., while better options to pressure these mons are plentiful in the current meta. Jellicent and Suicune should both rise a subrank each, as the reasons highlighted have been quite adequate to me. Jellicent soft checks a really large portion of the meta, notably covering things like Buzzwole, Scizor, Mamoswine, Mega Beedrill, and more, while Suicune's been finding a lot more opportunities to set up what with the ability to force out so many of the Pokemon that just recently entered the tier. Hawlucha should definitely rise to at least B, as the loss of its biggest check in Clefable and the prevalence of so many Pokemon that it can easily force out or set up on, such as Buzzwole, Krookodile, and Mega Steelix, allows for it to more consistently sweep than ever before (it's also worth noting that Sylveon can adequately check it but isn't nearly as dominant as Clefable was for a good amount of reasons).

While I'm still here, I'd like to go over some nominations of my own that I think could better reflect the current metagame. Let me know what you guys think:

Hydreigon up to A: I was honestly confused as to why this monster hadn't risen in the previous update. Its Choice Scarf set is capable of reliably revenge killing a number of threats that are very prominent in the metagame thanks to its nearly unresisted coverage. It easily disposes of Mega Aerodactyl, Latias, Buzzwole, Cobalion, Mega Beedrill, Mega Pidgeot, Celebi, and so many more threats thanks to its amazing Special Attack and nigh unresisted Dark/Dragon/Fire coverage. Its Specs set is also absolutely monstrous in this current metagame, as offensive teams are limited to pretty much just Primarina, which is 2HKOed by Flash Cannon with Spikes down, in terms of Pokemon that they can adequately switch in. Overall, Hydreigon's just been responding super well to the metagame's recent trends in that it revenge kills some the tier's most prominent setup sweepers and absolutely loves the lack of very common or reliable defensive Fairy-types. If there was one thing holding Hydreigon back, I'd say its the rise of threats like Mamoswine, Scarf Latias, and Conkeldurr, but even then these threats can only hope to revenge kill Hydreigon after once their teammates has been sacked, which is testament to the threat it poses to the current metagame.

Nidoqueen up to B: While it still doesn't quite compare to Nidoking, Nidoqueen's been getting a lot more usage lately, and for good reason. It compresses a lot of roles for bulky offensive teams really well thanks to its solid bulk, which is easily its most notable perk over its biggest competition. The combined utility of Nidoqueen's immense offensive presence, its ability to reliably set up Stealth Rock (and even Toxic Spikes if need be), the ability to tank hits from tier staples like Buzzwole, Raikou, Mega Aerodactyl, Cobalion, and especially Terrakion (its a full stop to the Rockium Z set), an immunity to Volt Switch, and the extremely small amount of Pokemon that can safely switch in is all part of what makes Nidoqueen such an easy Pokemon for most things seen on bulky offense teams to seriously appreciate as a teammate. Please rise this poor thing, it no longer has any business staying in B- with much more situationally useful Pokemon in Reuniclus, Bewear, and Alolatales.

Zygarde-10% down to B-: It hurts my soul to have to do this, but I really don't feel that Zygarde really warrants placement in B anymore. It's certainly capable of limiting its switch-ins against offense, but the same can be said to a more accurate degree with other Ground-type breakers like Mamoswine, Nidoking, and CB Krook due to their more threatening movepools. Another thing worth noting is that the aforementioned Ground-types all come with much more utility than Zygarde, such as powerful STAB priority and Stealth Rock in Mamoswine's case, a plethora of useful resistances and a diverse movepool in Nidoking's case, and the ability to burden switch-ins with the removal of their item in CB Krook's case. Zygarde also struggles to do anything of worth against the ever present Buzzwole, and in contrast to most other Ground-type options is extremely difficult to bring into play due to its total lack of any defensive utility whatsoever. As much as I love this dragon-dog hybrid, it's really having trouble fitting itself onto teams as easily as other Ground- and (to a lesser extent) Dragon-types for me to believe it should maintain its B rank.

Empoleon up to B+: I've always felt that Empoleon was more or less on the verge of a rise from B, but I feel that metagame trends have really favored it as of late and that a rise is beyond justified. Empoleon has the ability to check Mega Pidgeot, a massive thorn in bulky offense's side, alongside covering other Pokemon that the bulky offense archetype frequently seems hard pressed to find switch-ins to, such as Primarina and Latias, which hasn't been seen using Electrium Z nearly as much as earlier on in the meta. Overall, I feel that Empoleon's ability to set rocks alongside providing teams with a switch-in to some of the trickiest Pokemon in the metagame to come in on is more valuable than it's ever been, which should be represented with a rise to B+.

As for some other nominations I'd like to talk about but don't have as strong of feelings towards, Crobat should definitely rise due to its ability to reliably function as an answer to SubPunch Buzzwole. It was already gaining traction pre-shift to begin with, but immensely appreciates the ability fit onto offensive teams much more comfortably due to the immense need to cover one of the archetype's most common answers. Blissey could also rise, given that it currently forms an extremely potent core with Buzzwole that outside of a select few Pokemon, is extremely hard to adequately break through. Blissey also provides teams with a reliable answer to Latias, Primarina, and Mega Pidgeot, who are all relatively hard to switch into, which is further justification for a rise in my eyes. Metagross could rise to B, as its Assault Vest set has even more incentive to use now with Latias and Mega Pidgeot infesting the tier, and in my opinion, is about as good as Alolan Muk's in terms of checking Latias, which should be represented in keeping them only one subrank apart rather than two.

I hope you guys enjoyed reading! I had fun with this post, and hope it produces some thought provoking discussion :) thanks for reading!
 
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I'd also like to voice support for some other noms that I don't feel are as necessarily controversial. Toxicroak should honestly drop to C rather than C+, as it faces immense competition from both Infernape, who already sits two subranks above it, and Lucario, which has better priority attacks to abuse and a more convenient typing for setup, yet sits in C+ when I truly believe that it deserves at least a rank above Toxicroak. As for other reasons it should drop, Toxicroak just straight up loses to a lot of the Water-types that you'd think it could check, such as Primarina, Starmie, both Swamperts, Volcanion, Gastrodon, etc., while better options to pressure these mons are plentiful in the current meta.
I wanted to say toxicroak should drop to C but I thought it could only drop by 1 at a time. It was my first reply for a vr thread so I wasn't sure, but I completely agree with you.
 
Pokemon can drop or get raised up to usually 1 or 2 sub ranks at a time, anything more is a rare case unless some breakthrough occurs.
 
I would like to bring up some discussion about Durant. While Scizor is the far superior option in almost every case, I think Durant has some advantages over Scizor that justify a C- Rank in my opinion:

Durant @ Life Orb
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- X-Scissor
- Superpower
- Hone Claws/ Thunder Fang

This would be the set to go, Rock Slide and Crunch coverage aren't needed at the moment. Using Durant over Scizor gives you a better matchup against:

- Cobalion : Durant outspeeds Cobalion and OHKOs, while Scizor has to take a hit or loses without Superpower.
- Celebi (with HP Fire): Durant outspeeds and OHKOs, while Band Scizor loses and bulky Scizor takes huge damage
- Rocks Krookodile : Superpower OHKOs after Indimidate while Scizor would have to take a hit
- Nidoking : Durant has a good chance to OHKO Nidoking with Iron Head, guarenteed OHKO after rocks
- Mantine & Primarina : Thunder Fang allows Durant to OHKO Mantine and Primarina
- Hydreigon (no Scarf)

Running Durant over Scizor allows you to outspeed and OHKO some prominent mons in the UU meta, of course at the cost of special bulk, U-Turn and Priority in Bullet Punch. I still think this is enough to justify a placement in the lowest rank.
 
Here's a nomination I think is worth talking about:
Mega Steelix: B+ ----> A-

Mega steelix really shines in this metagame, and is an excellent rocker on just about every type of team. You would be surprised how much stuff you wall and check with max hp and special defense.
Earthquake can force many Pokemon out, such as Nidoking, Xurkitree, and Cobalion, allowing it to get up rocks without taking damage. Heavy slam does great damage to frail Pokemon who don't resist it, and you can either carry toxic or roar for your last move. Roar is good for forcing a boosting Pokemon out, and toxic is good for whittling down bulky Pokemon like Alomomola. It is surprisingly good in a metagame where Buzzwole and Mega Aerodactyl rule, and it does its job very well at being a tank with a 125 base attack to damage other Pokemon.
 
I would like to bring up some discussion about Durant. While Scizor is the far superior option in almost every case, I think Durant has some advantages over Scizor that justify a C- Rank in my opinion:

Durant @ Life Orb
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- X-Scissor
- Superpower
- Hone Claws/ Thunder Fang

This would be the set to go, Rock Slide and Crunch coverage aren't needed at the moment. Using Durant over Scizor gives you a better matchup against:

- Cobalion : Durant outspeeds Cobalion and OHKOs, while Scizor has to take a hit or loses without Superpower.
- Celebi (with HP Fire): Durant outspeeds and OHKOs, while Band Scizor loses and bulky Scizor takes huge damage
- Rocks Krookodile : Superpower OHKOs after Indimidate while Scizor would have to take a hit
- Nidoking : Durant has a good chance to OHKO Nidoking with Iron Head, guarenteed OHKO after rocks
- Mantine & Primarina : Thunder Fang allows Durant to OHKO Mantine and Primarina
- Hydreigon (no Scarf)

Running Durant over Scizor allows you to outspeed and OHKO some prominent mons in the UU meta, of course at the cost of special bulk, U-Turn and Priority in Bullet Punch. I still think this is enough to justify a placement in the lowest rank.
i mean none of these guaranteed OHKOs are really guaranteed with hustle u nah I'm saying lmao
i think with all the "new" threats we've gotten lately tho don't really favor durant at all
pretty much all the megas shit on it
weavile outspeeds
buzzwole basically walls

i think a sub hone claws set would be its best bet as it can force switches and setup/attack somewhat safely

i do think it can fit in C- rank as its definitely as good as like bruxish (????) silvally (?????????) and like moltres (?????????????)
 

HotFuzzBall

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alright here are my thoughts and nominations...


Bewear B- -> C/C- Agree
Tbh Bewear should have dropped around the time Conkeldurr startered to regain popularity due to its stallbreaker Flame Orb set. I agree with pif's nomination of severely dropping Bewear since, while this may be irrelevant, in OU Bewear's unranking on their VR list was mainly because it was outclassed by Buzzwole since Buzzwole has similar bulk, access to recovery and hits much harder while being able to snowball with Beast Boost. The same logic can be applied to UU as there really isn't a reason to use Bewear as long as Buzzwole exists. Due to Buzzwole's high base attack, it is able to invest more in its bulk while still doing approximately the same amount of damage, which is something Bewear can't really achieve. Also the ever increasing popularity of Conkeldurr really hurts our bear friend as well.


Zygarde 10% B -> B- Agree
Hilomilo's nomination basically says it all. There are better options for offensive Ground-types (Mamoswine, Nidos, Krookodile) that outshine Zydoge and as long as Buzzwole is here, it won't be doing much as it is forced to lock itself into Outrage in order to do some sort of meaningful damage to it. (Talking about the Banded set fyi, D-dance will do even less damage).

Noms I agree with but, didn't want to restate whats been said
Chandelure C+ -> B-
Mega Swampert A+ -> S
Toxicroak B- -> Way lower


As for my own nominations...

Cobalion A+ -> A
Cobalion doesn't really appreciate the tier shift at all tbh. Prior to the tier shift, Cobalion was used as a counter to Bisharp (or check depending on whether the Bisharp has Low Kick) and a check to Clefable but, they are both gone which does hurt Cobalion's viability. The drops of Buzzwole, Mega Pidgeot, Mega Swampert, and Mamoswine (to an extent) also does hurt Cobalion since Buzzwole and Mega Swampert can tank any unboosted attack (Buzzwole tanks even boosted AoPs) while Mega Pidgeot can easily revenge kill it. Conkeldurr's rising popularity also hurts Cobalion. Also I find that Cobalion is typically forced to run Shuca Berry in order to check rising threats such as Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Beedrill (with Drill Run, which is very common) and Krookodile which hurts its offensive prowess quite a bit. All in all, the meta doesn't really favor Cobalion too well but, the rise of Sylveon and Togekiss (I feel) and Hippowdon not being as common should allow it to stay in A.

+2 252 Atk Cobalion All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 181-213 (50.9 - 60%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Terrakion A -> A-
Basically what I said about Cobalion can easily apply to Terrakion lol... But, the fact that Cobalion is able to deal with Fairies while being neutral to Psychic-types is a lot better than Terrakion's superior offensive capabilities.
 
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ehT

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Changes:

B- → C
Bewear is simply outclassed by Buzzwole and Conkeldurr for a multitude of reasons, namely the former's superior bulk, and the latter's higher power and access to priority. That said, we felt that Normal STAB was still enough of a niche to keep Bewear ranked, so we'll keep it at C for the time being.

C+ → B-

The loss of its main competition in Gengar, the ability to punish most Buzzwole sets, and the slight decrease in Pursuit usage means Chandelure has a lot more breathing room than it did before June shifts, making its already good matchup versus bulkier teams even better. Although it isn't hard to pressure offensively, this is more than made up for by its ridiculous power, especially with Choice Specs, and the threat of Will-O-Wisp.

B- → B

Jellicent has always been decently anti-meta, but the addition of Buzzwole and Mega Swampert on top of the already existing things it naturally walls gives it lots of opportunities to spread status and shut things down with Taunt. Passive Water-types like Alomomola have gained a lot of traction in this new meta due to their ability to handle so many new threats and the relative scarcity of Grass-types, too, making bulkier teams more open than before to being harassed by Jellicent.

B+ → B

Although Muk's typing and bulk allow it to Pursuit trap a number of things, it's tough to keep healthy enough to do so with any sort of consistency due to how easy it is to wear down. That said, it's still one of the most consistent Latias checks with Assault Vest, and it can get away not being able to 100% beat Z-Draco sets since crippling it for the rest of the game is generally often enough to sufficiently support teammates that find themselves checked by Latias, as well as other things that it can only soft check like Starmie and Celebi. I've actually gotten quite a lot of mileage out of Muk + Alomomola, as proactive Wish usage can help Muk come in at full multiple times to trap the majority of things that want to try to abuse Alo, while Alo in turn holds back Aero, Krookodile, etc, making Muk a really neat trapper for fatter teams. That said, that level of support is more than should be required for a B+ threat, and thus we moved it down.

A → A-

Bulky Ground-types have only gotten more popular, and Raikou needs a lot more help than our other Electric-types to be able to pressure them. Z-Moves give it an easier time blowing past them and other defensive checks, but Xurkitree is far better at doing so due to its drastically higher power and better coverage. That said, Raikou's ability to boost its Sp.Def. and higher base Speed allow it to much more consistently threaten offense, whereas Xurkitree has to wait for all offensive checks to be taken out before it has a chance of breaking through.

B → B+

The decrease in Latias usage and Grass-types, as well as the introduction of new offensive counterplay to them, means that all Suicune sets got a nice jump in viability. VinCune in particular proves brutal versus teams that rely on passive or easy to wear down Water resists like Amoonguss and Primarina, respectively, as shown by its success in UUPL. Defensive sets also do a much better job than before as a physical tank due to the influx of physical wallbreakers that it can threaten.

B → B-

Not fast enough to be a consistent to be a consistent revenge killer, not strong enough to be a consistent wallbreaker, and too frail to make use of its typing defensively. This is made worse by the stiff competition it receives from other, stronger offensive Ground-types that actually offer some sort of defensive ability, like Krookodile, Mega Swampert, and even Mamoswine, who despite having a far worse defensive typing, can actually tank most neutral hits, and has better priority in STAB Ice Shard.

Declined Nominations:

C+ → B-
Honestly Forretress isn't worth it. Can't check any of the things its wants to since they either Taunt it or set up on it, and there's nothing it can do back besides set up hazards once, click Volt Switch once, then be death fodder later because it doesn't have recovery. The only niche it has is the combination of Volt Switch and Spikes, which even then makes you a sitting duck against anything you're supposed to wall.


B+ A-

Forgot to mention this with the last update, but Infernape is staying B+. Boosting sets are a completely liability versus Latias, and even with priority and Pursuit support, all sets besides Choice Scarf (which is its best set due to the utility of fast U-turn + Fire + Fighting STAB) run into the same problem of base 108 Speed simply not being enough for something so frail in a tier run by fast Flying- and Psychic-types.

B- C+

People really aren't giving Toxicroak enough credit. Poison STAB + Dark coverage are awesome boons for a Fighting-type to have, and makes it deceptively hard to switch in to. Passive Water-types like Suicune, Tentacruel, and Alomomola are becoming more popular at the moment, meaning that it has an easier time than before at punishing said passivity. Here's a ladder game showing what I'm talking about. Nidoqueen is the only real Toxicroak switch-in that my opponent had, and once I had it worn down, Toxicroak could flat out abuse 4 of the 5 remaining members by spamming Gunk Shot. It's not top tier by any means, but if I had, say, a Buzzwole or Cobalion here, I'd have had a much harder time breaking through that team. The potential for Sucker Punch and Knock Off alongside its defensive typing means it isn't dead weight versus offense, either, since getting off Sucker Punch early-game versus Aerodactyl or Beedrill goes a long way supporting, say, Latias or Terrakion later on, while also passively supporting by making Blastoise and Primarina think twice about clicking Hydro Pump.


Discussion Points:

A+ → A
Unranked → C

B- B/B+
A+ A

 
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i feel that as long as buzzwole remains in the tier, cobalion should def drop a bit, as the beast boosting bug makes cobalion almost a liability.
while it gained a mon it could check decently well (weavile), low kick OHKOS after knock
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 260-307 (80.4 - 95%) or whatever chip.
aside from those two however, i feel like cobalions status is largely unchanged

hawlucha is def an underrated threat, as it can sweep unprepared and even prepared teams rather easily with the right support. it threatens buzzwole which is always nice, can tank an ice shard occasionally when boosted
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hawlucha: 203-242 (68.3 - 81.4%)
and severely threatens HO and some bulky balances.
It also has passable enough bulk to be able to set up on a large amount of mons
252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hawlucha: 129-153 (43.4 - 51.5%)
252 Atk Krookodile Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hawlucha: 128-151 (43 - 50.8%)
252+ Atk Swampert-Mega Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hawlucha: 252-298 (84.8 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

so in short agree with coba drop and hawlucha rise
 
Seriously can't believe how toxicroak never dropped. I can see how some people think it should stay, but it is pretty outclassed by infernape, and in some cases lucario as a fighting type setup sweeper.
Also I saw many mega swampert to S nominations. Heard nothing about those though...
 
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esche

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Neither Infernape nor Lucario "outclass" Toxicroak because it fulfills the role of a Fighting type set up sweeper differently than they do. Toxicroak offers the unique ability for teams to run a Fighting type that does not only not care about, but actually comes in on, Scald. Additionally, Toxicroak is the only one of the three you mentioned that has sustainability in the form of Drain Punch + Black Sludge, being able to successfully run a bulky set up sweeping set, which I firmly believe to have potential in the current metagame.

I 100% agree with the ranking team that people give Toxicroak too much shit. It's not a 'mon that you can just slap on your team and expect to work out since some trends, for example the drop and popularity of Mega Swampert, work against it, for which you will have to account. However, Toxicroak still excels at it's role to punish "passive play" with bulky Water types, such as hazard removal from two of the most popular removers: Tentacruel and Empoleon. As eht has also pointed out in the update, Suicune seems to be on the rise again, which makes Toxicroak even more valuable, defensively speaking.

Anyway, speaking of trends, the defensive core of Empoleon, Sylveon and Buzzwole is rather prominent at the current point in time, and guess what switches in on and grabs a free SD on the Empoleon? 'Tis indeed, the Croaker. It actually then proceeds to pressure Buzzwole for a very good amount, which might come as a surprise, but take a look:

Bulky: +2 252+ Atk Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 280-331 (66.9 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Fast LO: +2 252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 331-391 (79.1 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Even Bulk Up variants can't keep up with the damage output, unless they run fully physically defensive (which is actually a good set albeit not common), and even those can't play around:

Bulky: +2 252+ Atk Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 213-252 (50.9 - 60.2%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Fast LO:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 253-298 (60.5 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

That part aside, my point is that Toxicroak deserves to stay in B- because of its most noticeable trait: The unique combination of its defensive capabilities, which grant it opportunities for set up unable for any other Fighting types to abuse, and offensive presence, due to the exploitation of "passive play", especially concerning bulky Waters, by setting up.
 
Neither Infernape nor Lucario "outclass" Toxicroak because it fulfills the role of a Fighting type set up sweeper differently than they do. Toxicroak offers the unique ability for teams to run a Fighting type that does not only not care about, but actually comes in on, Scald. Additionally, Toxicroak is the only one of the three you mentioned that has sustainability in the form of Drain Punch + Black Sludge, being able to successfully run a bulky set up sweeping set, which I firmly believe to have potential in the current metagame.

I 100% agree with the ranking team that people give Toxicroak too much shit. It's not a 'mon that you can just slap on your team and expect to work out since some trends, for example the drop and popularity of Mega Swampert, work against it, for which you will have to account. However, Toxicroak still excels at it's role to punish "passive play" with bulky Water types, such as hazard removal from two of the most popular removers: Tentacruel and Empoleon. As eht has also pointed out in the update, Suicune seems to be on the rise again, which makes Toxicroak even more valuable, defensively speaking.

Anyway, speaking of trends, the defensive core of Empoleon, Sylveon and Buzzwole is rather prominent at the current point in time, and guess what switches in on and grabs a free SD on the Empoleon? 'Tis indeed, the Croaker. It actually then proceeds to pressure Buzzwole for a very good amount, which might come as a surprise, but take a look:

Bulky: +2 252+ Atk Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 280-331 (66.9 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Fast LO: +2 252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 331-391 (79.1 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Even Bulk Up variants can't keep up with the damage output, unless they run fully physically defensive (which is actually a good set albeit not common), and even those can't play around:

Bulky: +2 252+ Atk Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 213-252 (50.9 - 60.2%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Fast LO: +2 252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 253-298 (60.5 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

That part aside, my point is that Toxicroak deserves to stay in B- because of its most noticeable trait: The unique combination of its defensive capabilities, which grant it opportunities for set up unable for any other Fighting types to abuse, and offensive presence, due to the exploitation of "passive play", especially concerning bulky Waters, by setting up.
I disagree with this. Sure setting up on Bulky Waters is a thing Ape and Lucario can't do. But unlike Ape and Lucario, Croak has a mediocre 85 base speed. Indeed, it has priority but yet it still loses to the Bulky waters you speak of.
Swampert? He lives even a plus 2 Drain Punch and gets OHKO'd by a non-invested Earthquake.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 214-253 (53.3 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 332-392 (108.1 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Suicune? The most common set is the Vincune set or the RoarCune set, in which Suicune can roar it out and switch to a teammate to deal with it later.

Jellicent? Only move Croak has for it is Sucker Punch and Gunk Shot, which Gunk Shot fails to 2HKO without a boost and Jellicent burns it before it can even do serious damage to it and recover up.

Mega Swampert? M-Pert can stomach anything at Plus 2 and kill it with Earthquake.

Unlike Croak, Infernape and Lucario can beat their checks with the right set. Meanwhile, Croak fails to beat the Bulky waters it's supposed to beat 1v1. Also, it has paper thin defenses which means it isn't switching into many things since it takes damage even from resisted hits or neutral hits.
Point is I don't see Toxicroak having more usage than Ape and Lucario due to utility and firepower and speed and even useful resistances.
 
I disagree with this. Sure setting up on Bulky Waters is a thing Ape and Lucario can't do. But unlike Ape and Lucario, Croak has a mediocre 85 base speed. Indeed, it has priority but yet it still loses to the Bulky waters you speak of.
Swampert? He lives even a plus 2 Drain Punch and gets OHKO'd by a non-invested Earthquake.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 214-253 (53.3 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 332-392 (108.1 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Suicune? The most common set is the Vincune set or the RoarCune set, in which Suicune can roar it out and switch to a teammate to deal with it later.

Jellicent? Only move Croak has for it is Sucker Punch and Gunk Shot, which Gunk Shot fails to 2HKO without a boost and Jellicent burns it before it can even do serious damage to it and recover up.

Mega Swampert? M-Pert can stomach anything at Plus 2 and kill it with Earthquake.

Unlike Croak, Infernape and Lucario can beat their checks with the right set. Meanwhile, Croak fails to beat the Bulky waters it's supposed to beat 1v1. Also, it has paper thin defenses which means it isn't switching into many things since it takes damage even from resisted hits or neutral hits.
Point is I don't see Toxicroak having more usage than Ape and Lucario due to utility and firepower and speed and even useful resistances.
While Bulk Up and SD sets are the better ones for croak you do realize if it wants to beat its own checks it can run a Nasty Plot set consisting of Sludge Wave,Focus Blast and Dark Pulse, of course V-Wave is preferred to have a chance against offensive but if its to take out bulkier issues Focus Blast is a solid option, anyway that set blasts through all the mons you just listed while still maintaining similar pressure as the physical sets. I don't really hold much of an opinion on where Croak should be placed the fact that it also has the capability of blasting past its would be counters shouldn't be ignored.
 
While Bulk Up and SD sets are the better ones for croak you do realize if it wants to beat its own checks it can run a Nasty Plot set consisting of Sludge Wave,Focus Blast and Dark Pulse, of course V-Wave is preferred to have a chance against offensive but if its to take out bulkier issues Focus Blast is a solid option, anyway that set blasts through all the mons you just listed while still maintaining similar pressure as the physical sets. I don't really hold much of an opinion on where Croak should be placed the fact that it also has the capability of blasting past its would be counters shouldn't be ignored.
Then the argument that Toxicroak isn't outclassed by the two is invalid then, since Infernape and Lucario can both run a Physical, Special, and even a mixed set that is better than Toxicroak's.
 
Discussion Points

A+ → A
Eh, Cobalion kinda sucks atm. Like, I can see it still doing well in a metagame with Weavile, but it's just too underwhelming right now. It gives setup opportunities to Mega Swampert, Latias is everywhere, Scizor is now using more offensive sets with Superpower, Mega Beedrill can carry both Knock Off and Drill Run, and Buzzwole is also everywhere and hardly checks Cobalion. In my opinion, the only good sets Cobalion can use at the moment are Chople + SR, which is really good to handle Superpower Scizor and Terrakion, and Z-Bounce + SR, which can be used as a surprise effect and OHKO Buzzwole without a single boost. I'd say Cobalion could drop even further, but I think it's becoming relevant again if Weavile drops.

→ C
No opinion since I didn't see it doing anything yet.

B- B/B+
Yeah I think a rise is warranted right now. Meeps' team perfectly showcases what Hawlucha does: it sets up, and then wins the game. Hawlucha doesn't need Ninetales-A to set up, though, as it finds many setup opportunities against Cobalion, Buzzwole, and Krookodile. Its Power Herb set is also really good, as it has a more direct form of hurting opposing Pokemon, but it struggles against many offensive threats unlike the Subs + SD one.

A
I strongly disagree with this one. While Krookodile is struggling with threats such as Buzzwole and Conkeldurr around, it's still the best physical Scarfer in the tier, and it can do many things that other Scarfers such as Infernape and Mienshao can't. The first thing that differentiates Krookodile from them is, of course, a powerful STABed Knock Off, which allows Krookodile to OHKO Z-less Latias, Starmie, and Celebi after a bit of prior damage. Krookodile can do many other things, such as being a shaky check to Mega Aerodactyl, outspeeding +1 Xurkitree (Z-Terrain isn't Xurk's most effective set tho). Oh, and Intimidate is still stupid good, tbf it's even better right now since Bisharp left the tier. Krookodile is also very flexible, being able to use many other sets, such as Groundium SR, Steelium SR, and even Choice Band. Krookodile is still a top tier Pokemon, thus it deserves being placed in high A.

 
Florges: I dont understand why this tier needs florges, but I guess i wont knock it since it can do stuff vs latias.

Hawlucha: needs to rise asap. I can honestly see it going to A one day, because its pretty much still as good as it was last gen. I think it needs to go as high as possible so im gonna say B+

Krook: Honestly krook is super debatable, because people are fucking around with florges and this tier is flooded with fighting types. But at the same time, clef is gone and so is keldeo, so i dont see why It should move from where it is. It's just sitting on thin ice right now. Also keep in mind there are tonnes of megas in the tier now and they all kinda fuck up krook. I say drop, but its really really debatable.

Swampert: I'm like 65% sure it deserves S for being such a reliable sweeper, more reliable than most pokemon. It doesnt really care about much once rain is up. Sometimes youre stuck in a situation where your moves just barely make the cut for 2hkoing a pokemon, so that's why im kinda on the fence. Otherwise its a pretty seamless pokemon that can 1v1 a lot of things in rain.

Toxicroak: B- is perfectly fine for it. It is kinda in the middle of a bulky fighting like buzzwole and strong one like lucario, which gives it some use on balance where you'd want something that can deal with a nice slice of the metagame. Think of it like this: you wont ever be able to switch lucario in on anything. But, you can switch toxicroak in on a lot more, and then proceed to outspeed the average speed tier and hit quite hard with any unique moveset. It's better than buzzwole or conk in that it is way faster, and its better than lucario or infernape because its way bulkier, so its perfectly in the middle if you dont need something as extreme as all offense and no bulk, or all bulk and little offense. Also there is like an entire section of the metagame that croak can deal with that no other fighting type can. It is the best against water types, rivaled only by conkeldurr who has to run one obvious set to beat them. B- is like the textbook definition of a mon with these kinds of niches.
 
Swampert: I'm like 65% sure it deserves S for being such a reliable sweeper, more reliable than most pokemon. It doesnt really care about much once rain is up. Sometimes youre stuck in a situation where your moves just barely make the cut for 2hkoing a pokemon, so that's why im kinda on the fence. Otherwise its a pretty seamless pokemon that can 1v1 a lot of things in rain.
Do you mean mega swampert? Regular is also uu so be sure to specify that.
 
Some of my own nominations:
Buzzwole to S: Buzzwole is very restrictive to team building at the moment. My biggest gripe is its SubPunch set. Thanks to its surprisingly good physical bulk, Buzz can switch in on most of the relevant physical attackers in the tier (with resistances to boot) and set up a Sub on them. The Sub essentially makes Buzz immune to switch threats bar Crobat. When the Sub is thrown up (assuming during the opponent's switch), the opponent will most likely switch to a Pokemon that would take Focus Punch the best. Even if you successfully tank a Focus Punch, you don't directly force a Buzz to switch due to Substitute.

Terrakion to A-: Latias' continued dominance in the tier and introduction influx of other Fighting-types such as Buzzwole and Conkeldurr leaves Terrakion little room to operate on its usual SD sets. Furthermore, the ever-growing speed creep from new Megas and Weavile gives it harder times setting up or maintaining a set-up. In short, there are better wallbreakers available in the tier that do not need turns to set-up and have better natural assets (typing, raw stats) than Terrakion.

Xurkitree to A-: I've been messing around a lot with Xurkitree ever since I started playing competitively again, and I personally feel like this Pokemon is either dead weight or not efficient against offense and some BO teams. Outside of the Base 173 Special Attack, Xurk's main draw is its Tail Glow. It's painfully slow and painfully frail. Although it has a generally favorable match-up against stall, it tends to be more or less dead weight against BO, Balance, and regular Offense due to limited switch-in opportunities and ease of being forced out (low bulk and low speed, respectively). Xurkitree is somewhat similar to Haxorus in the sense that an SD Hax has a favorable matchup against stall, but has poor match-ups against other playstyles. Xurk could go lower, but I think this is the logical ask for my suggestion.

Steelix-Mega to A-: I've been seeing more Steelixes in room tours recently paired in Steel-Water-Fairy cores (not to say increased usage correlates with increased viability). In the meta's current state, Steelix-Mega can switch into a lot of UU's prominent threats, such as Latias, Xurk, Raikou, Weavile, etc. For balance teams, Steelix is almost a necessary backbone to build upon. Furthermore, it forms strong Defensive cores with Pokemon in A and S such as Latias, Togekiss, Prima, etc.
 
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Some of my own nominations:
Buzzwole to S: Buzzwole is very restrictive to team building at the moment. My biggest gripe is its SubPunch set. Thanks to its surprisingly good physical bulk, Buzz can switch in on most of the relevant physical attackers in the tier (with resistances to boot) and set up a Sub on them. The Sub essentially makes Buzz immune to switch threats bar Crobat. When the Sub is thrown up (assuming during the opponent's switch), the opponent will most likely switch to a Pokemon that would take Focus Punch the best. Even if you successfully tank a Focus Punch, you don't directly force a Buzz to switch due to Substitute.

Terrakion to A-: Latias' continued dominance in the tier and introduction influx of other Fighting-types such as Buzzwole and Conkeldurr leaves Terrakion little room to operate on its usual SD sets. Furthermore, the ever-growing speed creep from new Megas and Weavile gives it harder times setting up or maintaining a set-up. In short, there are better wallbreakers available in the tier that do not need turns to set-up and have better natural assets (typing, raw stats) than Terrakion.

Xurkitree to A-: I've been messing around a lot with Xurkitree ever since I started playing competitively again, and I personally feel like this Pokemon is either dead weight or not efficient against offense and some BO teams. Outside of the Base 173 Special Attack, Xurk's main draw is its Tail Glow. It's painfully slow and painfully frail. Although it has a generally favorable match-up against stall, it tends to be more or less dead weight against BO, Balance, and regular Offense due to limited switch-in opportunities and ease of being forced out (low bulk and low speed, respectively). Xurkitree is somewhat similar to Haxorus in the sense that an SD Hax has a favorable matchup against stall, but has poor match-ups against other playstyles. Xurk could go lower, but I think this is the logical ask for my suggestion.

Steelix-Mega to A-: I've been seeing more Steelixes in room tours recently paired in Steel-Water-Fairy cores (not to say increased usage correlates with increased viability). In the meta's current state, Steelix-Mega can switch into a lot of UU's prominent threats, such as Latias, Xurk, Raikou, Weavile, etc. For balance teams, Steelix is almost a necessary backbone to build upon. Furthermore, it forms strong Defensive cores with Pokemon in A and S such as Latias, Togekiss, Prima, etc.
I made a post about why I think Mega steelix needs to rise so I am totally for a mega steelix rise. I am also for a terrakion drop but I am against Buzzwole rising. It has low special defense and if it's hits by a strong special attack it's either OHKOed or heavily damaged, it doesn't help that Buzzwole isn't too fast either. I am kind of on the fence whether or not Xurkitree should fall or not, because sometimes it can be ineffective but other times it can be incredibly useful and sweep with ease thanks to Z-Hypnosis. The best nomination here is definitely the Mega steelix rise, he needs to rise ASAP imo.
 

pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
Regarding Florges, I agree with ranking it. C is fine, maybe higher as its only slightly worse than Sylveon on average.

Quick comparison between the two Fairies:
  • Sylveon has greater physical bulk and power and can even pretty reliably crush Blissey with Echoed Voice sets
  • Both get the same utility moves
  • Sylveon can go through Substitutes which is important almost solely for Buzzwole
  • Florges has greater special bulk and speed
  • Florges gets instant Recovery so it doesn't need to spend a turn Protecting (although both get Z Heal Bell)
  • Sylveon can run a better Choice Specs set, but that's laregly irrelevant with Primarina
  • Moonblast drops lol...
To be honest, I really don't think Florges is sigificantly worse at all. Even the lack of comparable Physical bulk isn't a huge problem when considering one of the main reasons you run physical bulk is Conkeldurr, which outspeeds Sylveon but not Florges.

Replays showing Florge's advantages (I use Z Heal Bell, Leftovers is more standard. Both Sylveon and Florges can un either so this isn't such an important point)
Florges can go as high as B- in my opinion (same as Sylveon) because they run roughly the same cleric sets and Sylveon's extra power is less relevant than last generation because Primarina.
 

HotFuzzBall

fuzzy-chan \(ㆁヮㆁ✿)
is an Artist

Mega Absol B+ -> B
Now that Weavile is in the tier, Mega Absol has a lot more competition for an offensive Dark-type. With Buzzwole in the tier, Mega Absol was actually a decent Dark-type due to its ability to lure in Buzzwole and 2HKO it with Fire Blast, while Weavile/Krookodile struggled to get past it. Mega Absol's 4MSS is probably a lot more prominent now that Buzzwole is gone, since many Fighting-types (Bewear, Cobalion, Terrakion mainly) will see the limelight again, forcing Mega Absol to have to fit in moves like Play Rough / Fire Blast to deal with them as well as potentially Iron Tail for Fairy-types, that are creeping in popularity with Clefable's departure (Sylveon and Florges specifically) while also wanting both Knock Off and Sucker Punch the majority of the time. The competition for the mega slot is also a lot more prominent as the top tier mons in UU are primarily mega evolutions so it is a lot harder to fit Mega Absol onto teams, especially since there are similar-ish options with Weavile, Krookodile, and even A-Muk. Also, I don't see Mega Absol on the same level as I do Nidoking and Suicune sooo yeah... However, I do not believe Mega Absol should drop any further since it has ways to lure in or get around its counters which sets it apart from its competition, ultimately forcing the opponent to play around and scout its set and Magic Bounce is still pretty potent as well.


Arcanine C- -> D
Simply put, Arcanine is probably the new meme of UU (and it will probably stay in UU since it is the patron/god of newer players) since Mega Audino and Pelipper or going to drop or rise (in Pelipper's case). While Arcanine has solid stats, its movepool and Fire-typing are really the hindrances of this mon. Offensively, Arcanine is outclassed by both Infernape and Entei (and Darmanitan in some respect) so there is really no reason to run offensive Arcanine. Now with that aside, being a wall that have moves that inflict recoil (Flare Blitz and Wild Charge) or lower its defenses (Close Combat) is counter-intuitive for a Pokemon that is supposed to be a wall. While it can utilize Flamethrower/Fire Blast instead, Arcanine ends up being more vulnerable to the tiers multitude of viable bulky Waters (Suicune, Alomomola, and Jellicent are decently popular-ish nowadays), which can typically force Arcanine out or just beat it 1v1. Anyways, there really isn't a reason to use Arcanine anymore honestly. It loses to basically every relevant wall in UU (bar Amoonguss and Blissey in some cases), while providing very little utility besides walling a very small handful of mons (namely Beedrill and Cobalion), which is prominent now that Buzzwole is gone.


Mamoswine A- -> A
Mamoswine is pretty terrifying atm with Buzzwole's departure. Prior to the council vote, many people used Buzzwole as one of the very few, viable Mamoswine switch-ins, which inadvertently caused a very small influx in its HP Flying set as a lure to it. With Buzzwole gone, Mamoswine has a very limited amount of Pokemon that can reliably switch in to it, ultimately causing it to be a pretty scary wallbreaker (I can see Mamoswine measuring up to Primarina as of now). The Pokemon that can sorta switch in to it (Slowbro and Alomomola) also tend to not appreciate Knock Off and in rarer cases, Freeze Dry. Mamoswine's Stealth Rock set is also pretty decent as well since it can take advantage of its ability to force a good amount of the tier out in order to set them up.


Hawlucha B- -> B/B+ Agree
A lot of people summed up my thoughts so yeah... I'll leave it at that

edit- I feel like we/you should consider ranking the mons from A- and up based on viability (rather than alphabetical order) so we could drop a mon within their subrank rather than an entire subrank, if that makes any sense. There are also clear winners/underdogs in each subrank (for example, Terrakion and Mega Sharpedo are the underdogs of the A rank but, I don't believe they should drop an entire subrank while Mega Pidgeot and Conkeldurr are probably the standouts of the A rank).
 
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dingbat

snek
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I had a relatively short chat with eht about this and he was planning to address this soon anyways, so I'm gonna pre-emptively make a Weavile nom

Right now, there's a strong case for Weavile being at minimum an A+ rank. With its LO 4 Attacks set with Knock Off, Ice Crash, Low Kick, and Ice Shard (unquestionably its best set atm), it's more than capable of causing plenty of havoc against any given team regardless of archetype, easily seen by how amazingly it performs in practice. Between its highly spammable coverage moves, it's capable of severely denting anything that's not a bulky water type (even then, losing leftovers is not ideal), and on top of that, Weavile is not easy to revenge kill via faster targets because many of them risk losing at least half their health from Ice Shard (mega aero, mega bee, scarf hydra, scarf krook, scarf latias, mega pidgey, etc). Now we all know by now that it has major deficiencies defensively because its defensive typing in turn is pretty garbage and its bulk is about nonexistant, leaving it heavily susceptible to other top tier threats including Scizor, Conk, and Infernape, but when you take into account its offensive capabilities in practice are matched by absolutely nothing else in this tier, it screams a top tier threat that every battler must be thoroughly prepared for.
 
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