Metagame STABmons

EV

Banned deucer.
Mega Mawile Trick Room


I couldn't find the original so I threw this together. No hazard/control because no time. It's pretty flexible - just swap around the wallbreakers with whatever synergy works for you. Maybe a Ground immunity lol?

Magearna @ Fairium Z
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Moonblast
- Flash Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Trick Room

Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Shore Up / Swords Dance
- V-create
- Shadow Bone
- Knock Off

Mawile-Mega @ Mawilite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sunsteel Strike
- Sucker Punch
- Play Rough

Slowbro @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick Room
- Steam Eruption
- Psystrike
- Fire Blast

Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick Room
- Boomburst
- Recover
- Shadow Ball

Araquanid @ Choice Band
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Crabhammer
- Megahorn
- U-turn
- Aqua Jet


/done
 
Last time this was OMOTM the council refused to acknowledge rash quick-bans like Mega Metagross(banned in OU now), Tapu Lele etc. simply stating that you didn't have time for suspect tests. With Stabmons projected to win OMOTM next month will the decisions to come be handled democratically and will previous decisions be revisited?

Specifically,
  • Why are quick-ban slates a thing? Surely when you quick-ban one thing it affects the viability of other Pokemon/Moves on the slate.
  • Why would your first quick-ban slate include both Shift Gear and Metagrossite? Surely by banning Shift Gear any decision on Metagrossite would already be outdated. I realise that Metagrossite is banned in OU atm, but did you realise or not realise the problem with quick-banning both at the same time?
  • Why was Mega Aerodactyl quick-banned for being broken in the past? Tell us what's changed! Why is M-Aero so broken now (Keep in mind every ground type now has Shore up) that you needed to quick ban it?
  • Why is acupressure banned? Baton Pass is banned.
In one month you quick-banned 14 Pokemon/moves/items. This is far too much. At the time only three people were on the council. Three people decide the best for a metagame played by thousands, is that fair?

Please listen to the community this time. You can't accurately predict how the metagame is going to evolve, nobody can. If you can then I suggest you invest in the stock market as well.

Sorry if I came off as rude It's not my intention. I want to play Stabmons (And I did before the quick bans started) but it's hard when the bans are handled like this.
 
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EV

Banned deucer.
Last time this was OMOTM the council refused to acknowledge rash quick-bans like Mega Metagross(banned in OU now), Tapu Lele etc. simply stating that you didn't have time for suspect tests.
Nope, not how it happened.
With Stabmons projected to win OMOTM next month will the decisions to come be handled democratically and will previous decisions be revisited?
Nope. Playerbase is too small to allow player input and we have no plans to go back on any quickbans from earlier.

Specifically,
  • Why are quick-ban slates a thing? Surely when you quick-ban one thing it affects the viability of other Pokemon/Moves on the slate.
It's just easier and faster to lump them together.

  • Why would your first quick-ban slate include both Shift Gear and Metagrossite? Surely by banning Shift Gear any decision on Metagrossite would already be outdated. I realise that Metagrossite is banned in OU atm, but did you realise or not realise the problem with quick-banning both at the same time?
We determined that Megagross was broken without Shift Gear.

Nothing has changed since we quick banned it! That's why it's staying banned.

  • Why is acupressure banned? Baton Pass is banned.
Acupressure gets around the evasion clause.

In one month you quick-banned 14 Pokemon/moves/items. This is far too much. At the time only three people were on the council. Three people decide the best for a metagame played by thousands, is that fair?
Play the meta or don't play the meta. I won't lose any sleep over it. But last I checked, you don't play, so how come you're suddenly an expert?

Please listen to the community this time. You can't accurately predict how the metagame is going to evolve, nobody can. If you can then I suggest you invest in the stock market as well.
We do/did listen to the community when we make our decisions . . . Just because they don't line up with what you want (which just seems to be "no bans ever") doesn't mean we're tone deaf. I suggest you play the metagame before trying to make informed decisions in the future.
 


Here's my take on Trick Room! I saw Eevee's team and decided to give it my own shot. This team focuses on Mega Camerupt, not Mega Mawile. What Mega Camerupt offers is a fullproof check to Tapu Koko, literally always stopping it in its tracks. Firstly, I've selected Uxie as the main Trick Room setter which provides Stealth Rock, to make Camerupt's job a bit easier. Lunar Dance gives Mega Camerupt or Cofagrigus another shot in the spotlight, so I decided on that over Memento since Cofagrigus doesn't really need the drops Memento provides. Next, Porygon2 is my hazard control and secondary Trick Room setter. It compliments Uxie well in that it appreciates a Fighting-type check. It's a very simplistic Pokemon and I can't explain much else. Provides a one-time check to Porygon-Z, too, and can work with Cofagrigus to take it down. Camerupt is the next Pokemon. Now with access to recovery! Blue Flare is still incredibly strong, and the metagame trends of Tapu Koko being used, along with Grass-types being used more frequently to check Tapu Koko make it a lot nicer. Also, Celesteela is annoying, and Camerupt just happens to perfectly beat it. Mega Camerupt is a very solid Pokemon, and its bulk allows it to take FakeSpeeders on as well. Cofagrigus is the third Trick Room setter, but it works on its own. Flipping the match and unleashing havoc with Never-Ending Nightmare! Cofagrigus is legit scary to face, and it beats FakeSpeeders with ease. Also forces Porygon-Z to think before clicking. Next is Magearna, the final Trick Room setter. It's more of an offensive pivot that stops Porygon-Z cold and holds its own. If it starts rolling, it's difficult to stop. Finally, Rotom-Wash provides momentum and a Water-type that isn't Slowbro, which is what I wanted. Fairly simplistic set.

Now that I've shared my team, I'd like to move onto some other things.

Firstly, the Viability Rankings have a few changes I think need to be made.


A+ Rank → S Rank

Tapu Koko is an undeniable offensive force. With such versatility, offensive prowess, and ability to beat nearly every single one of its checks / counters, if it even has hard counters, I believe Tapu Koko needs to be moved up to the S Rank to reflect just how powerful it is in the metagame and how it's better suited there. Tapu Koko is just such an insanely strong Pokemon, and I've noticed that Grass-types seem to be running more and more rampant, partly due to Tapu Koko in my opinion. This change in the metagame reflects how Tapu Koko is a very strong presence in the tier. Therefore, I believe it should be ranked S Rank, not A+ Rank. I've gone into much further depth below this, so keep reading!


A+ Rank → lower ranking

Garchomp-Mega is just not a good Pokemon. I don't know why it's A+ Rank, I really could not tell you. It's a bulky Dragon Dancer that costs you a Mega slot and isn't ever seen. In the last dozens of battles I've played, I've seen Garchomp. Not one has been Mega. It's just simply not a common or good Pokmon. While usage ≠ viability, I don't see why Garchomp-Mega deserves an A+ Rank position. If someone would care to enlighten me, I'm all ears. Because as of right now, it feels out of place. That is why I haven't said which rank to go to, as I simply do not know. All I do know, however, is that Mega Garchomp is not in the right ranking.


A Rank → A+ Rank


Porygon-Z is a monster. It's very obvious what it does, and it does it incredibly well. It's such a frightening powerhouse that it's hard for me to not see it in anything but A+. Pokemon like Zygarde, which is also incredibly powerful in its own right, are the same viability as Porygon-Z. While I don't think anything in the metagame has necessarily changed to make a change warranted, I believe it was ranked improperly in the first place. Furthermore, I've noticed that it's started to run Choice Scarf sets more to make up for its somewhat lackluster Speed stat. Porygon-Z is just ferocious and I think it should be reflected in the rankings as an A+ Rank Pokemon.


Unranked → A Rank

Mega Mawile isn't ranked, and it needs to be. Sunsteel Strike is actually such a cool move that it's got now. After giving it a try myself, it's easily an A Rank Pokemon and it's so frightening to face. Seriously, Sunsteel Strike is so powerful that it's insane. I understand it wasn't released until recently, which is why it isn't ranked, but I believe it's an A Rank. Also, seeing Eevee's Trick Room team convinces me more. It can really shine under multiple lights, and although Sucker Punch received a nerf, it deserves to be ranked. Like, +2 Sunsteel Strike OHKOes Celesteela after the tiniest bit of residual damage. That's insane power right there. I just feel Mega Mawile is a great Pokemon.


Unranked → A Rank


Rain is such an underrated playstyle, and also an incredibly threatening playstyle. Mega Swampert is the face of Rain. The mechanic change which allows it to gain the Speed boost the very turn it Mega Evolves is insanely great to its viability. Mega Swampert checks Tapu Koko, though it's 2HKOed by Play Rough. However, Shore Up is an incredible buff, and it can run things like Refresh (my personal favorite), Ice Punch, Stone Edge, or Superpower. It's a versatile powerhouse that crushes the competition under Rain. Even out of Rain, it's bulky and powerful, so it's not deadweight out of it (like Kingdra is) and it's easily an A Rank Pokemon. I could even be leaning towards A+, but I don't think it's really on that level. Regardless, Mega Swampert is an A Rank Pokemon.


Unranked → A- Rank

Alakazam is a very strong Pokemon. It even got a buff this generation – Counter. Now it can beat FakeSpeeders if it needs to, and provides an emergency check to dangerous set up Pokemon such as Kyurem-B (lacking Icicle Spear). Even Life Orb sets shine, too. Though, it's not the strongest Pokemon out there, and the ever common Celesteela puts a thorn in its side, it can even beat it with Counter, as it'll be forced to either switch, or Beak Blast / Anchor Shot, which Alakazam can capitalize on. Psystrike is just as strong as ever, and although Tapu Lele isn't here anymore, I've tested out a Psychic Terrain set, and it's actually pretty neat. More power, and no priority to worry about. Just a little hard to find a reason to use, though. Still deserves an A- Rank in my opinion. Or B+, which I will get into later in the post.


Unranked → A- Rank

Pelipper saw a huge buff with Swampertite being released. Now, Rain is a viable and potent playstyle. It wouldn't be possible without Pelipper. Roost and Defog are great assets, and it has U-turn. Scald, Steam Eruption, Oblivion Wing, Hurricane. Pelipper's very versatile. It even has Knock Off! Whatever Pelipper wants to do, it does. However, it's slow, easily exploitable, and not very strong in its own right. It's got the bulk and utility down, but lacks offensive prowess at all. Drizzle in itself is enough to get this Pokemon ranked, as it's its main selling point. Therefore, I find A- Rank to be the perfect position for it. Not any higher, not any lower.


Unranked → A- Rank

Tangrowth is a strong Grass-type, with stronger competition. However, I feel that Tangrowth should be ranked. Regenerator, insanely good physical bulk to take on Tapu Koko better, or even an Assault Vest set to stop Greninja, Tangrowth is a cool Pokemon. Spore is great if you're into that, too. I feel its biggest competition is Ferrothorn and Mega Venusaur. Regenerator, Knock Off, and neutral Grass-type make it stand out to me. It doesn't cost a Mega Slot, or lose momentum easily. It's just a very solid glue Pokemon that needs to be ranked. While it's not as good as Ferrothorn and Mega Venusaur, it's uniquely good in its own respect, and should be ranked A-. Also lower than both Ferrothorn and Mega Venusuar.

There's some Pokemon that could use a ranking, too, which is why I propose a B Rank that need to be added. Here's some contenders for B+:

Alakazam-Mega: A very strong Pokemon, but it faces competition from itself and other Mega Pokemon. It's so susceptible to being weakened through pretty much all priority, and it lacks strong ways to beat Celesteela without relying on Focus Blast. It's a solid Pokemon, but not worthy of the A Ranks, and if anything, matching to its base form in A- would be best if not B+.
Araquanid: Genuinely find this Pokemon really overhyped. Yes, it's really strong. Tail Glow sets are absolutely devastating. However, it's really easy to completely wall. With Tapu Koko being on so many teams, it's hard pressed to actually set up and it doesn't offer much defensively either. Being weak to Stealth Rock, and just being all-around mediocre. It's not a bad Pokemon, and I see it as like the lowest of A-, top of B+, but more fitting in B+.
Jirachi: Jirachi is a great stop to Porygon-Z, and a defensive Steel-type is always great. It provides so much momentum and utility in just one little set that it needs to be ranked somewhere in my opinion. However, it's really, really weak to some of the most common Pokemon (Tapu Koko, Greninja, Silvally-Ghost, Zygarde) and it provides so many opportunities to be taken advantage of. However, it deserves a ranking.
Kingdra: If the other rain Pokemon are ranked, Kingdra should be as well. I don't see it as an excellent pick, but I certainly see why it would be run. Core Enforcer is a nice buff for it. It's a solid rain Pokemon, but falls short outside of Rain, unlike Swampert. Therefore, I think it needs to be ranked the lowest of any rain Pokemon.
Scizor: Scizor being unranked is a true crime against humanity. Choice Band Gear Grind is so incredibly, immediately, threatening. Momentum, strength, bulk, synergy. Scizor is a great Pokemon. However, I feel Mega Scizor is the better pick in the metagame. Therefore, I think it should be one rank lower than Scizor-Mega. Though, with more and more Grass-types surging, it's nice to have Scizor to help out.
Volcarona: Incredibly threatening Pokemon in its own right. It can boost alongside Silvally, which is something not a lot of Pokemon can claim. It scares FakeSpeeders thanks to Flame Body, and it can overwhelm the opponent if they slip up even once. With more Grass-types popping up, it's easy to see Volcarona popping up more, too. After using it, I can safely say it deserves a rank. Not in the A Ranks, but a rank.

There's obviously more, but this is what I see as immediate standouts for the uncreated rank, should it be created. Some other ideas I've had are Uxie, solely for being great on Trick Room and all-around really cool; Gyarados-Mega for being really frightening and strong; and Bisharp for being a really strong Pokemon that really doesn't fit in the higher rankings. Just some ideas to explore.

Finally, something somewhat controversial, but I believe it needs to be addressed. Tapu Koko needs to be suspected.

Tapu Koko is quite obviously one of the, if not the, best offensive Pokemon in the tier. With its blistering Speed and high Attack stat, alongside Electric Terrain Bolt Strike, it's really hard to actually stop Tapu Koko. Choice Band sets push it over the edge in my opinion. Bringing a Ground-type is cute, until it just U-turns out and comes back in later to keep forcing you to lose momentum in order to stop it. There's even more to Tapu Koko, with it often donning a Choice Scarf to make it even harder to check. These sets carry Hidden Power Ice, so good luck bringing in your Landorus-T. Tapu Koko has shaped the metagame to allow for Grass-types like Mega Venusaur to rise, though this is also due to how insanely good Greninja is, but anyways. Brave Bird walks over these sets, and though you do get recoil, you eliminate the thing stopping you from spamming Bolt Strike mindlessly. However, Tapu Koko can even run fully special sets to launch off Moonblasts, which really do terrify most of the tier. Tapu Koko is far too versatile and overbearing for the tier in my eyes.

What about Tapu Koko's flaws? Ground- and Grass-types. Of the ranked Ground- and Grass-types, let's dissect how Tapu Koko actually can break through them. No, it can't do it all, but it can attempt to and do a pretty damn good job at it. Firstly, Diggersby. Diggersby gets smacked by Life Orb Play Rough, and even Choice Scarf sets 2HKO it. Choice Band straight up KOes after any residual damage. Next, the best Ground-type check: Landorus-T. All-out physical sets cannot break through Landorus-T, but even Jolly Hidden Power Ice 2HKOes after Stealth Rock. And it's OHKOed by any special sets. Garchomp and Zygarde both gets walked all over by Play Rough, or Moonblast / Hidden Power Ice on special / mixed sets. Dugtrio doesn't stand a chance against Play Rough, and it can attempt to trap and get hit by U-turn. Not good. Let's move on to Grass-types. Mega Venusaur stops it if and only if it runs primarily Defense investment. Which it will. Even then, Brave Bird is a clean 2HKO, and Bolt Strike will just 2HKO it after a tiny bit of residual damage. Tapu Bulu is OHKOed by Brave Bird, but does stop Electric Terrain! Which is great. Play Rough still 2HKOes it. Serperior obviously drops. I've saved the best stop to Tapu Koko for last: Ferrothorn. Ferrothorn is probably the most reliable way to beat Tapu Koko. However, don't let it get worn down, as it will be 2HKOed by Bolt Strike (it does ~42%-~49%). Choice Band sets run through normal checks. Life Orb makes it even harder to know what to do. Choice Scarf sets halt offensive stops. Special sets lure out things that it shouldn't beat.

Let's discuss more of Tapu Koko's flaws: FakeSpeed, Speed control, and residual damage. Firstly, it is checked by FakeSpeed. Tapu Koko gets worn down a little quickly, and it will fall to FakeSpeed if kept in. This is one of the best ways to check Tapu Koko, and quite a reliable one at that, too. I'll not deny that FakeSpeed puts a dent in Tapu Koko's viability. It does the same to Greninja, though, which is arguably just as strong. Speed control means Sticky Web and Choice Scarf. Sticky Web is hardly run, and it's quite easy to remove with the plethora of entry hazard removal available. However, it does make it harder for Tapu Koko to shine. Choice Scarfers like Garchomp or Rotom-H can reliably check and outspeed Tapu Koko. Until it runs Choice Scarf. Then they can't even do that, and will be sacrificing their bulk they could be using to use Choice Scarf. Tapu Koko has ways to manage each and every one of its checks and all are viable. None of the ways Tapu Koko beats its checks is in the slightest unviable. Finally, being forced to switch a lot means Tapu Koko absolutely needs entry hazard control. That's the only essential support it needs. Obviously partners help it, but it just needs entry hazard removal support, and that isn't a huge demand to make.

Tapu Koko is one of those Pokemon that if you don't handle it in a multitude of ways, you just can't beat it. While Tapu Koko does have notable flaws, I don't think they hold it back from being suspect worthy. And keep in mind, a suspect is not a ban. However, I think Tapu Koko needs to be looked at. Even if you disagree with my idea of banning it, it's really difficult for me to see it not at the very least suspected. Tapu Koko shapes the metagame in a way I'm not a fan of, and I think its presence is overwhelming in the tier, and it should be removed.

Congratulations if you've read this very long essay! Hopefully it was worth the read. :)
 
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I've loved Sketchmons for quite a while now, and when I saw that STABmons was likely to be the replacement, I was mildly interested in coming to play this. I have faint memory of playing it last generation, and I figured I could go ahead and create a few quick teams, play some fun practice matches, and go and, well, prepare for this to become the OMotM. Hell, maybe I could even get a round in with my brother and have some fun.

Everything happened there, except for you have to remove the word 'fun.'

There's a few issues that currently make STABmons a bit of a pain to go ahead and play, and even if there's a wide group of people more well informed, more experienced in this meta, I wanted to get my two cents in anyways.




Silvally! Oh boy, where do you begin? Ghost Silvally with Tail Glow, Spore, Moongeist, and Secret Sword breaks just about any bulky team I've seen, including my own and opponents, and you can even swap around Tail Glow for Quiver Dance, Spore for Agility or Autotomize, or Secret Sword for any coverage move that your team (somehow) lacks. Swords Dance is also very much so possible, with Shadow Force and Close Combat being the two primary contenders for the physical STAB options. FakeSpeed with Normal is possible, but far less threatening than, say, Diggersby, but you may just lose a mon to Silvally if you don't anticipate it and think it's the Ghost one. Water, Steel, and when I tried it a few times Ground were pretty good at walling multiple things, since access to every recovery move, Taunt, Scald, Parting Shot, any anything else you may need is great. Normal also can run a fairly convincing Ekiller set, besides the worst overall stat spread. Its versatility is nuts, it performs every role that a team needs it to do, and if you guess wrong at team preview and choose an option that is only risky with one Silvally variant, you might have just screwed yourself a new one.




Maybe you break Silvally. So, now you've moved on with three, maybe you're lucky unlike me and had four mons left after having to deal with Silvally's reign of terror (or you're lucky and had to click X before Koko came in!) The Koko now is in the house, and either it breaks you with a Choice Band, Z-Mirror Move, maybe it's a Life Orb mixed attacker or special sweeper, a Taunt set, or even it just clicks Specs Fleur Cannon! There's not much counterplay to Koko besides praying it's not the set that it very well could be, as any counter it has can be beaten through another set it can carry (Lovely Kiss/Transform Chansey doesn't appreciate Bolt Strike damage, Landorus hates taking multiple Moonblasts or a Hidden Power Ice, Tangrowth or Tapu Bulu don't enjoy Brave Bird or repeated switches into Bolt Strike or Play Rough, and the latter hates Fleur Cannons). It tends to clean up nearly any game where Silvally doesn't, in the cases where Silvally is a sweeper.



My last little gripe is about the non-removal of the reliable Sleep Inducers. Sleep Powder is incredibly inaccurate, as well as Sing. Spore and Lovely Kiss, on the other hand, are not. Spore isn't a move I see too frequently besides Silvally, but 100% accurate sleep can ruin switchins such as a Fire Type into a Tapu Bulu or a Flying type into a Tangrowth. A rise of Grass types to attempt to combat Koko, Greninja, and to a lesser extent Keldeo means that Spore just makes its rounds several times again and just feels a pain to deal with. Lovely Kiss isn't something I have seen yet, but there's a very good sized list of Normal types or ex-normal type mons that appreciate a sleep inducing move, such as Pidgeot-Mega, Chansey, Lopunny-Mega (when that's out), Porygon-Z, and of course Silvally. Most of them either inflict sleep onto a switchin counter, thus rendering it useless for a short time, or use it to begin a sleep, and with the only counterplay being to sack the correct mon, or a Berry to cure the condition...


EDIT: Future me writing this up: Spore is by far the lowest issue I see right now, but as I feel Koko and Silvally should be gone (and in the near future when MLop exists) I just am curious on what the stance will be on these. Spore has iffy distribution, but grass types being more widespread only means more sporemons. Hell, I'm probably wrong again. But who knows?




I know some of that is biased and probably not exactly well educated, but I'm trying.



But I'm not only here to go ahead and complain, because if I wanted to do that and only that, I'd just go to Reddit. And, hey, if this stuff gets toned down or gone or whatever, then I've got my crowned glory here to come and stay:

Gyarados-Mega @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Liquidation
- Beak Blast
- Dragon Dance
- Roost

Bulkados is here, and he doesn't want to move. Ever. Intimidate on the switch in can work repeatedly to start setting up dragon dances with Water/Flying's good defensive qualities (notably preventing Lando from clicking Precipice Blades). If Gyarados takes significant damage, Roost it off and proceed to set up a bit more. Liquidation will be the primary STAB option for mashing once you get a boost or two, OHKOing Koko with Rocks on a good roll after just +1, or can be guaranteed through 88 Attack:

+1 0 Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 229-271 (81.4 - 96.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Beak Blast may seem a bit odd, but it's a decent answer to a Koko that blindly will press Bolt Strike against you when mega'd before boosts, at -1 or -0. While you will earn no awards for damage against it, and will likely die in the process of letting it hit you, burning Koko is incredibly good on physical variants, which seem to be the most common ones, and lets subsequent mons such as Ghost Silvally or Z-Trick or Treat Hoopa-Unbound to come in on it later and wreck house. Beak Blast also lets you combat other physical threats that enjoy contact or may seek to revenge kill you, such as Medicham before boosts, Mimikyu (which also hates having Mold Breaker break through Disguise), and Accelerock Tyranitar/Terrakion once your health is low enough.
 
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Also agreeing that GhostVally needs to be looked at. However, I do have to disagree with the banning of Spore, or at least limiting it.

Firstly, you mention the rise of Grass-types, which I agree with, but you neglect to mention the other half of that: more Grass-types = more Spore immunities. While it also brings more Spore users to the table, it also brings more Spore counters. A double-edged sword. Sleep can be really annoying, but I just fail to see how it's over-centralizing in any way. Furthermore, Tapu Koko being everywhere makes Spore even harder to use, as Electric Terrain prevents Sleep from being inflicted on any grounded Pokemon. Spore's really not that easy to mindlessly spam as you make it out to be. You've got to account for Tapu Koko and Grass-types, either one or both, being on the opposing team. There are other viable ways to prevent it, too, with some Choice Scarf users (think Heatran, Terrakion, etc) that use Sleep Talk themselves. It's a helpful preventive measure. Lovely Kiss doesn't have any excellent abusers, except for Mega Lopunny, which isn't released. Also, Silvally would run Spore not Lovely Kiss.

I see Spore as more of a... come prepared for move. It's something like FakeSpeed, which you should account for. Neither are inherently broken, and neither are too difficult to prepare for (i.e. not using random Pokemon like Insomnia Banette or something) on all teams. Spore honestly makes the tier more fun in my opinion, and it would be a shame to see it go. I do understand why some see it as a broken move, but I'm not in that boat.

Mega Gyarados is a really cool Pokemon! I've run a set with Roost / Dragon Dance / Crunch / Liquidation and enough Speed to outspeed max Speed Tapu Koko at +1, with the rest invested in bulk. It's a super threatening and slept on Pokemon.
 

drampa's grandpa

cannonball
is a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
I think Spore and other sleep moves, whether they are broken or not, should not be our first priority, and will be entirely different if Silvally and Tapu Koko get banned, as we would lose the best abuser and the only source of Electric Terrain. I propose we put a hold on even discussing sleep suspects until those two have been dealt with.

I personally would like to throw my weight behind the banning of both. wishes basically said what I would like to say about Koko, expect she failed to mention Steelix(-Mega), probably the single best Koko answer in the game.

I'm not going to bother doing calc's for the physical set, trust me when I say Steelix takes nothing and heals it off with Shore Up. As for special sets...
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Steelix-Mega: 136-162 (38.4 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
The evs are just the default tank set in the calc. More investment would obviously take hits better, to a maximum of
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix-Mega: 118-140 (33.3 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


But thats kind of irrelevant because one solid answer does not a non-broken mon make, especially when said mon is fairly passive. Tapu Koko has a ridiculous speed tier, an insane main attack, the coverage to hit what it needs to, and the ability to go special to kill most of its usual checks. It doesn't even care about switching out that much, unless it's the Z Mirror Move set, as long as Electric Terrain is up. Too strong too fast plz ban.

As for Silvally... I don't think any one set is too strong. What I don't like about it is the complete surprise factor. Even with things like Mew or Smeargle you have some idea what they're capable of at team preview but Silvally just has too many niches which it fulfills adequately, too many strange coverage options, too many weird choices for utility moves. When building you have to prepare to both be able to neuter defensive / utility silvally and prevent it doing its thing and wall ALL setup Silvally variants... Coil, Quiver Dance, Dragon Dance, Swords Dance, w/e, every type with every imaginable coverage option. I don't believe it does any one of these things the best, but its unpredictability leaves me believing it needs a ban.

Hope I made some sense.
 
I'm going to have a fun time if this is the OM of the Month. I'm thinking something along the lines of Leafeon with Solar Blade... I think that weather might play a good part in this meta thanks to anyone of the typing getting access to moves like Blizzard and Hurricane, not to mention Shore Up.

I have a simple idea for a Wobbuffet-Sableye combo:
Sableye @ Aguav Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Memento
- Topsy-Turvy
- Dark Pulse
- Trick-or-Treat
Wobbuffet @ Leftovers
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick Room
- Stored Power
- Rest
- Calm Mind
the idea is to first eliminate opposing dark threats (maybe with a Tapu) and obvious Taunt users so as to not get walled, then send in Sableye to mess up the opponent with a Memento, followed immediately by switching Wobbufett in, who prevents the opponent from switching with Shadow Tag. The essentially doubled defenses and monstrous HP allow for some easy setup, then you trick room and sweep... assuming that they also don't set up on you. I know that Wobbuffet is totally outclassed by Gothitelle in the power department, but I'm counting on Gothitelle being banned already. Even without a Shadow Tag switch-in, the Sableye can probably lead to at least one free turn of setup for another mon.

Next, I thought about other Dark Type stuff. Now they all get Power Trip and Snatch. In this Meta where everyone is going to run Shift Gear users and whatnot, do I even need to say more? Let's give a moment to Accupressure + Power Trip Drapion...

Another thought that comes to mind is Manetric learning Electrify and having Lightningrod. Sure, Raichu and Zebstrika are faster, but Manetric can Mega evolve once it gets a hearty amount of setup, making it bigger, faster, and stroger too ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶f̶i̶r̶s̶t̶ ̶m̶e̶m̶b̶e̶r̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶D̶K̶ ̶c̶r̶e̶w̶. Besides, after just one Agility, Manetric doesn't really need to worry about speed (the same can be said about both Zebstrika and Raichu, but meh).

Finally is the concern of so many mons getting some kind of "all around buff" Z-Move in Purify, Forest's Curse, Conversion, Trick or Treat, and anything else I'm currently forgetting.
I'm pretty late to the "brainstorming about STABmons" party, I just made an account less than an hour ago, and I didn't read half of these posts. Shame on me.
 
Hey Toady Bloyster!

Since STABmons follows an OU banlist, where Shadow Tag is bannned, Wobbuffet is not allowed to be used with it, so the core isn't actually legal.

Next, Shift Gear is also banned due to being insanely good on nearly any threat, notably Scizor-Mega, so it's banned. Power Trip is certainly an interesting move, especially on Hoopa-U, which can utilize Z-Trick-or-Treat with it to threaten a lot of the tier. Just has some difficulties setting it up.

Manectric isn't really viable because of how common FakeSpeed (Fake Out + Extreme Speed) is and how it's really not that strong in STABmons standards. And it's also too slow. Tapu Koko is the infinitely better Electric-type. Mega Manectric is an okay Pokemon, but it's really not worth it because it doesn't offer anything special, though I haven't used it much.

All stat raising Z-Moves sound threatening on paper, and they're not bad, but the issue lies in the lack of good users. Z-Purify Nihilego and Z-Trick-or-Treat Hoopa-U are the best abusers, and neither are exactly the most prominent or pressing threats. With such high power attackers such as Tapu Koko and Diggersby, it's hard to set up and maintain a sweep.

Welcome to Smogon! I've got a few resources to help you get around. Firstly, this will take you to the common sets in the metagame. Next, check the second post in the thread for the Viability Rankings to see how things line up. Finally, come by the Other Metas room on Pokemon Showdown! to discuss STABmons and get help on starting in the metagame. You can also VM or PM me and I'd be more than happy to help you with whatever you need. :)
 

EV

Banned deucer.
[There will be an announcement by the council later with regards to QB/suspects. Stay tuned!]

In the meantime, I've compiled our sample teams into one document along with a threatlist compendium. If you have suggestions, please post! (And this time it's view only, you little stinkers.)
 
kyu-b - S++++

broken, best answers to this beast is scizor which get surprised by a random hp fire lure. after one dd it pressures any team wayy too much. not to mention kyurem-b has access to a physical z move ANYTHING NOT NAMED scizor/doublade/jiarchi dies to this. thou they are some hard stops to the physical set like def magearna and forretress who can pivot but kyurem-b has no 4mss and can easily run mixed dd with bolt/beam coverage and literally any move like hp fire/ep
the best sets are

Kyurem-Black @ Icium Z /electirium Z/ Life orb
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Icicle Spear
- Fusion Bolt
- Earth Power/hp fire
 
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Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
some interesting things to note:

ferrothorn has access to pseudo-reliable recovery in strength sap, which means ferrothorn can become a MASSIVE pain for physical attackers to take down with a combo of SS and King's shield. kokokounter?

silvaly man, forget ghost type, fairy type becomes incredibly hard to break because of moonblast, quiver dance, Strength sap, and lava plume, silv's hp is so low, that most of the time it gets to full hp and sableye and most sap sippers aren't capable of handling silv's coverage. it spreads burns, lowers special attack, raises its special defense, hits hard, and has a "full hp recovery" move in its arsenal. on top of being fairy type, its a incredible set, and i think it might just surpass ghost silv. can't break unaware though. so ghost still wins there.

rotom- so this thing gets all the other rotom formes moves? so all rotoms get grass, flying, electric, water, fire, ghost, and ice coverage. silv jr?

kyurem B...specs got a buff with core enforcer to break regencores and weaken mons who rely on their abilities like scizor on the switchin, physical set still is as OP as ever, banded can forgo dclaw/outrage for dragon hammer...yeah...i agree...still OP.
 
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Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Hello so first off I want to say that I'm really hype that we won OMoTM and would like to personally thank everyone for voting for the best Other Meta to get the ladder it rightfully deserves.

With this being said, I would like to speak on the behalf of the council and announce a couple of things before we begin the month.


Komala has been quickbanned

Komala has been brought up for discussion for banning not by merit of its offensive/defensive capabilities (although it still proved to be an effective SD setup sweeper), but rather that the access to two new phazing moves in Roar and Whirlwhind in tandem with its ability in Comatose allows it to effectively phaze its opponent while ignoring its negative priority bracket when used with Sleep Talk (coining the term of "ComaPhaze"). This strategy works extremely well when paired with hazards since Komala is potentially able to wear down the opposing team while immobilizing the enemy foe from reacting in return. However, Komala still can get outspeed by faster threats such as Ash Greninja, Tapu Koko, and Aerodactyl even when equipped with a Choice Scarf. Komala is also susceptible to priority moves, which means it can often be forced out due to how prevalent they are. With all this mind, we still feel that that this strategy invites nothing competitive since it removes the targets ability to counteract without specific preparation.

Here is a replay of it in action: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7stabmons-232369

We also will be reviewing other potential suspects, so stay tuned for future changes.

Hope everyone has fun playing Stabbies this month!
 
I use Shuckle+ComaPhase Komala in Sketchmons. I do agree with the quickban XD
Guys up there, look at the bans. No Z-moves that can give +1 to everythiing are allowed. So no-Z Trick or Treat Hoopa-U.
Also, i have no idea on which pokemon i should start teambuilding with (except tapu lele to stop fakespeed) so start posting ideas that everyone can borrow XD
 
All +1 Z-Moves are not broken. There are no good abusers, well there are, but no overwhelming abusers. Each are easily manageable and there's no reason to ban them as far as I'm aware right now. Here's a better way I put it above:

All stat raising Z-Moves sound threatening on paper, and they're not bad, but the issue lies in the lack of good users. Z-Purify Nihilego and Z-Trick-or-Treat Hoopa-U are the best abusers, and neither are exactly the most prominent or pressing threats. With such high power attackers such as Tapu Koko and Diggersby, it's hard to set up and maintain a sweep.
 
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EV

Banned deucer.
(big post dump)


Ladder's coming, thanks for your patience.

We on the council are also going to try and do a better job communicating our processes, including what we want to suspect, why, and how. I think it's important that the players have an ongoing dialog with the people influencing bans the most, so from now on you can expect us to be more vocal.

To start, I'd like to go over our Whys and Hows of suspecting. STABmons does not hold traditional Req suspects, for a few reasons. Instead, we prefer the approach utilized by the UU council, which errs on the side of caution and QBs threats in handfuls at a time. We chose this philosophy because of i) limited time, ii) our transient playerbase, iii) and because we want to distinguish ourselves from other ladders, which take far too long to ban obviously broken threats, thus increasing the enjoyability of our ladder for longer.

So just what is a STABmons suspect?

When we suspect a Pokemon/move/whatever, we will announce the suspect(s) to the community with reasons why and provide a grace period of testing, during which we will host tournaments where the suspect(s) is banned. Also during this time, the playerbase are encouraged to post their opinions in the thread in order for us to gauge every angle and consider every argument. After the grace period has passed, the council will hold a simple vote and announce the results in the thread. You may see us suspecting one, two, or more at a time - the number just depends on how many threats we think are worthy of our immediate consideration.

With that said, we're introducing the following format for pre-suspect announcements. It assigns a "threat level" to each suspect, indicating what we believe to be the most banworthy. (The actual "levels" are fairly arbitrary, but you get the point.)




version 1.0


Welcome to O.T.R.! The council has been hard at work gathering intel about dangerous threats roaming the STABmons metagame. In this post, you'll see what threats we are keeping a close watch on and the likelihood of said threats to be banned based on their distances. After a few days of laddering and discussion from the date of this post, the council will reconvene and announce which of the following targets have been officially suspected.


Silvally-Ghost <5 m
Arsenal: (every move, but mainly) Quiver Dance, Moongeist Beam, Secret Sword, Taunt, Spore, Strength Sap. Immunity to FakeSpeed, usable all-around stats, unpredictable. May even be a physical set.
Kyurem-Black <15 m
Arsenal: Dragon Dance, physical Ice-STAB, Fusion Bolt, coverage with Earth Power or Hidden Power Fire. Roost for longevity and high all-around bulk make it difficult to revenge. Can run Choiced sets effectively, too. Very few dedicated checks.
Tapu Koko <20 m
Arsenal: Graced with the "Kyurem-B effect" and finally sports a strong, physical STAB move with Bolt Strike. Electric Terrain increases STAB by another 50% and grants immunity to Sleep. Fusion Bolt, Play Rough, Brave Bird, and U-turn common. Can be Choice Banded or Scarfed. Can run mixed sets with Hidden Power and Fleur Cannon to catch checks off-guard. Z Mirror Move or Electrium Z are viable, too.

[distant threat detection - additional reconnaissance required]


Ash Greninja <50 m
Blistering fast and strong special pivot with high-powered Water STAB. Lacks some of the coverage available to its base form and is very predictable.​

Thundurus <50 m
Capable stallbreaker and cleaner. Requires moderate levels of support to beat opposing offense teams. May pose a stronger threat once other Pokemon leave the metagame.
Diggersby <75 m
Superb revenge killer and wallbreaker. Cannot spam STABs blindly thanks to dual immunity, plus the inclusion of new checks in the metagame have made its job harder (e.g. Celesteela, Silvally-Ghost, Shore Up Ground-types).
Porygon-Z <75 m
Excellent Z move user and wallbreaker. Struggling more this generation with the addition of more Steel-types, but has the flexibility to fit onto any offense archetype thanks to Z-Conversion or Plates for added coverage.

[out of range threat detection - off the radar]


Spore <100 m
100% accurate Sleep available to all Grass-types (and a few others). More Grass Pokemon this generation = more Spore absorbers = wash. New auto-terrains (Electric and Misty) invalidate the status. Can be deflected or negated with proper planning, e.g. Magic Bounce, Safety Goggles, Sleep Talk, and Sleep immune abilities.

[transmission complete]


Note that the above list is not an official suspect announcement - it is merely a "heads up" with regards to the council's future ban trajectory. Plenty can happen from now until an official announcement, so if you'd like to get in on the action, start posting your thoughts once that ladder goes up!

:heart:

Also,
All +1 Z-Moves are not broken. There are no good abusers, well there are, but no overwhelming abusers. Each are easily manageable and there's no reason to ban them as far as I'm aware right now. Here's a better way I put it above:

All stat raising Z-Moves sound threatening on paper, and they're not bad, but the issue lies in the lack of good users. Z-Purify Nihilego and Z-Trick-or-Treat Hoopa-U are the best abusers, and neither are exactly the most prominent or pressing threats. With such high power attackers such as Tapu Koko and Diggersby, it's hard to set up and maintain a sweep.
IDK why you think the Z moves are subpar. They're really frickin good and arguably Porygon-Z is the best user of them, not Nihilel.
 
I never once said they were subpar. Obviously +1 Z-Moves are going to be good. Porygon-Z has better things to do, like ya know, STAB Adapt Boomburst. Nihilego is a far better user since it has no other roles (I guess you could run Scarf if you want) and Porygon-Z does have better things to do. Let's take a look at all of the +1 Z-Moves:
  • Conversion
Porygon-Z. Congrats. There's no other Normal-type that regularly uses this move and it is very notable only on Porygon-Z. Obviously a ton of Pokemon can use the move, but none do. Greninja has a Z-Happy Hour set, that's the closest thing to a Z-Normal-type move that raises all stats I can think of. Nothing else uses the move. Unless it becomes more popular, then no, I stand by saying the abusers are subpar.
  • Purify
Gengar, Nihilego. Now these are actual good abusers. Both have already strong enough Special Attack / high enough Speed to be worthwhile abusers. These are two good abusers, but neither are perfect. Gengar is better with Choice Scarf / Choice Specs in my opinion, and it prefers those over Z-Purify due to practicality. Nihilego's got nothing that is notable that is better than Z-Purify, making it the most consistent user of it. As a personal user of Z-Purify, I can attest that it's incredibly threatening and hard to stop, especially thanks to Beast Boost.
  • Trick-or-Treat
Hoopa-U and Mimikyu! Both are excellent abusers of the move. Trick-or-Treat is probably the most viable, as it has two of the most viable abusers. Hoopa-U has Stored Power and Power Trip, while Mimikyu has Disguise. Both are unique enough to be worthwhile.
  • Forest's Curse
Out of every single battle I've played, Forest's Curse is the one +1 Z-Move I've seen a grand total of zero times. I guess Celebi could use it? Maybe Venusaur? Serperior? I have no idea what the point is since it makes the opponent resist the user's moves, which obviously isn't cute. It's just not that viable of a move, since Grass-types have so many better things to be doing.

Z-Moves that raise all stats are completely amazing, but there are not good abusers of the moves that are given. Porygon-Z definitely shouldn't be running Z-Conversion, it should be running Choice Specs or Choice Scarf. Besides Porygon-Z, there's only four Pokemon which make use of it, and none are broken / overpowered. So to clarify: no, I never said +1 Z-Moves are subpar, but I stand by the abusers being weak.

Anyways, onto the suspects:

Silvally-Ghost: Wholeheartedly broken. Between impeccable coverage, freedom to do whatever it wants, excellent all-around bulk, and solid recovery, Silvally-Ghost is a Pokemon which has been a nuisance to the tier as long as it's been here. Instead of arguing for banning Silvally-Ghost, I'd like to see someone argue as to how it isn't broken, since I think that's a million times harder to prove than that it is broken.

Kyurem-Black: In all honesty, I've yet to use Kyurem-Black much. However, every time I've used it or faced it, it's pulled its weight. Having Dragon Dance, reliable Ice STAB, and solid bulk make Kyurem-Black a complete monster. I'm fully behind the banning of Kyurem-Black and do think it should be banned.

Tapu Koko: broken bird

Ash-Ninja is something I'd like to see played out after the above bans occur, since I'm not quite sure whether it is broken or not. It's certainly threatening... But broken? Not sure yet. Thundurus is 100% not broken right now, nor is it a top tier threat. However, after losing competition in Tapu Koko, I'm very interested to see the result of how Thundurus plays. Diggersby and Porygon-Z aren't broken, and I genuinely don't see them becoming overpowered when losing a check (Silvally-Ghost), but we'll see. I like their "distance" on the radar currently.

tl;dr: +1 Z-Moves are outstanding but have bad abusers, ban Silvally-Ghost/Kyurem-Black/Tapu Koko, ban Tapu Koko, and ban Tapu Koko!
 

drampa's grandpa

cannonball
is a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
(big post dump)


Ladder's coming, thanks for your patience.

We on the council are also going to try and do a better job communicating our processes, including what we want to suspect, why, and how. I think it's important that the players have an ongoing dialog with the people influencing bans the most, so from now on you can expect us to be more vocal.

To start, I'd like to go over our Whys and Hows of suspecting. STABmons does not hold traditional Req suspects, for a few reasons. Instead, we prefer the approach utilized by the UU council, which errs on the side of caution and QBs threats in handfuls at a time. We chose this philosophy because of i) limited time, ii) our transient playerbase, iii) and because we want to distinguish ourselves from other ladders, which take far too long to ban obviously broken threats, thus increasing the enjoyability of our ladder for longer.

So just what is a STABmons suspect?

When we suspect a Pokemon/move/whatever, we will announce the suspect(s) to the community with reasons why and provide a grace period of testing, during which we will host tournaments where the suspect(s) is banned. Also during this time, the playerbase are encouraged to post their opinions in the thread in order for us to gauge every angle and consider every argument. After the grace period has passed, the council will hold a simple vote and announce the results in the thread. You may see us suspecting one, two, or more at a time - the number just depends on how many threats we think are worthy of our immediate consideration.

With that said, we're introducing the following format for pre-suspect announcements. It assigns a "threat level" to each suspect, indicating what we believe to be the most banworthy. (The actual "levels" are fairly arbitrary, but you get the point.)




version 1.0


Welcome to O.T.R.! The council has been hard at work gathering intel about dangerous threats roaming the STABmons metagame. In this post, you'll see what threats we are keeping a close watch on and the likelihood of said threats to be banned based on their distances. After a few days of laddering and discussion from the date of this post, the council will reconvene and announce which of the following targets have been officially suspected.


Silvally-Ghost <5 m
Arsenal: (every move, but mainly) Quiver Dance, Moongeist Beam, Secret Sword, Taunt, Spore, Strength Sap. Immunity to FakeSpeed, usable all-around stats, unpredictable. May even be a physical set.
Kyurem-Black <15 m
Arsenal: Dragon Dance, physical Ice-STAB, Fusion Bolt, coverage with Earth Power or Hidden Power Fire. Roost for longevity and high all-around bulk make it difficult to revenge. Can run Choiced sets effectively, too. Very few dedicated checks.
Tapu Koko <20 m
Arsenal: Graced with the "Kyurem-B effect" and finally sports a strong, physical STAB move with Bolt Strike. Electric Terrain increases STAB by another 50% and grants immunity to Sleep. Fusion Bolt, Play Rough, Brave Bird, and U-turn common. Can be Choice Banded or Scarfed. Can run mixed sets with Hidden Power and Fleur Cannon to catch checks off-guard. Z Mirror Move or Electrium Z are viable, too.

[distant threat detection - additional reconnaissance required]


Ash Greninja <50 m
Blistering fast and strong special pivot with high-powered Water STAB. Lacks some of the coverage available to its base form and is very predictable.​

Thundurus <50 m
Capable stallbreaker and cleaner. Requires moderate levels of support to beat opposing offense teams. May pose a stronger threat once other Pokemon leave the metagame.
Diggersby <75 m
Superb revenge killer and wallbreaker. Cannot spam STABs blindly thanks to dual immunity, plus the inclusion of new checks in the metagame have made its job harder (e.g. Celesteela, Silvally-Ghost, Shore Up Ground-types).
Porygon-Z <75 m
Excellent Z move user and wallbreaker. Struggling more this generation with the addition of more Steel-types, but has the flexibility to fit onto any offense archetype thanks to Z-Conversion or Plates for added coverage.

[out of range threat detection - off the radar]


Spore <100 m
100% accurate Sleep available to all Grass-types (and a few others). More Grass Pokemon this generation = more Spore absorbers = wash. New auto-terrains (Electric and Misty) invalidate the status. Can be deflected or negated with proper planning, e.g. Magic Bounce, Safety Goggles, Sleep Talk, and Sleep immune abilities.

[transmission complete]


Note that the above list is not an official suspect announcement - it is merely a "heads up" with regards to the council's future ban trajectory. Plenty can happen from now until an official announcement, so if you'd like to get in on the action, start posting your thoughts once that ladder goes up!

:heart:

Also,

IDK why you think the Z moves are subpar. They're really frickin good and arguably Porygon-Z is the best user of them, not Nihilel.
I like this list. I must say Thundy has never done anything for me or to me, but I guess we'll see once Koko goes of it rises to prominence, as wishes said.

Also it's not just Ghostvally that's a problem. The whole mon is. Suspect the whole thing, not just the ghost memory or something.

I still don't understand why kyub was ever legal.
 
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Happy to see this 'suspect watch' type of thing; lets me know immediately what you guys are thinking. Makes me understand what on earth is going on without spamming your pms on PS lmao



I second Drampa's statement of it not just being Ghostvally (although Ghostvally is definitely the biggest issue). Silvally's frustrating with multiple types since it still can run Quiver Dance or Tail Glow with some other types (Electric with BoltBeam, Fighting with Moongeist/Secret Sword to replace Ghostvally if it gets removed), SD, tank sets, etc etc etc etc etc basically just fuck silvally, it can go back to NU/PU and maybe it'll be ok in Tier Shift. Maybe then it'll find a use in an OM.


Kyu-B's silly. Dragon Hammer is slightly better than Dragon Claw, but really its just eh. Icicle Crash/Icicle Spear and Ice Shard are incredibly cool for non-choiced sets, giving Kyurem-Black a proper way to damage things like SpDef Celesteela (as well as most Ice attacks not proccing King's Shield), while Ice Hammer is also great for Choiced sets for a better nuking option, since offensive sets don't like the reduced speed. Dragon Dance makes Kyurem-Black basically an ad on television.

"HELLO, KYUREM MAYS HERE WITH A SPECIAL TV OFFER. YOU HATE SILVALLY RUINING YOUR DAY? GRENINJA SPAMMING WATER SPOUT OVER EVERYTHING YOU DREAMED OF? WELL, WITH A SINGLE PRESS OF A BUTTON, YOU TOO CAN HAVE A FREE WIN FOR THE SIMPLE PRICE OF YOUR DIGNITY!"


Koko I still stand by everything I said in the last one. Happy to see it's in the range of the Suspect Missiles.




As for the only one of the 'distant threat detection' that I see being a problem to me, personally, Ashgren, I haven't had too many issues with it, although that also stems from seeing a lack of them. I've used it a bit and it does work once the opposing Grass type, since every team seems to have one (or at least one Water resist), is removed. Before then, it's primarily a bait -> Parting Shot mon, which still works. I feel Specs Water Spout is incredibly silly (for alright reasons) and is ok. For now.



Thundurus is... weird. I keep hearing Oblivion Wing with Thundy-T is the best thing to grace the earth, and even though it is a Stallbreaker, I must say there's a huge lack of stall or even balance teams I could find when playing. Most teams are either extreme HO or Chansey Offense, with Chansey just carrying Transform. It'll be the premier Electric type once Koko stops existing, though, which I'm happy to see as one of my favorite Gen 5 mons.


Diggersby... FakeSpeed. It makes me sad whenever it breaks my setup sweepers, but its just a be-prepared-for thing. Not too hard to deal with.


Porygon-Z... Haven't seen it yet. Won't make any judgments until I see one. get it judgments because it gets judgment k ill go leave


Spore I'll go give in a bit. If/When Koko is gone, I'll take more thought into it, but there really isn't too many good abusers. then mlop exists with lovely kiss gvdsyvfdsgvfyusdv




I don't know how to end posts... uh.. silvally's broken banpls
 
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Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
I like this list. I must say Thundy has never done anything for me or to me, but I guess we'll see once Koko goes of it rises to prominence, as wishes said.

Also it's not just Ghostvally that's a problem. The whole mon is. Suspect the whole thing, not just the ghost memory or something.

I still don't understand why kyub was ever legal.
I second this. I thought the people here at Smogon hated complex bans, hence why Baton Pass as a whole was banned from OU. Allowing every other Silvally form except for a specific one is stupid, and goes against this philosophy. No matter what form you have, you're basically always getting a Mega Smeargle which can change types and has a legitimate offensive presence. Either we ban Silvally as a whole, or don't ban it at all.
 

drampa's grandpa

cannonball
is a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
I second this. I thought the people here at Smogon hated complex bans, hence why Baton Pass as a whole was banned from OU. Allowing every other Silvally form except for a specific one is stupid, and goes against this philosophy. No matter what form you have, you're basically always getting a Mega Smeargle which can change types and has a legitimate offensive presence. Either we ban Silvally as a whole, or don't ban it at all.
I disagree that this ban would be complex, given that you could just ban the item.
 

fanyfan

i once put 42 mcdonalds chicken nuggets in my anus
I second this. I thought the people here at Smogon hated complex bans, hence why Baton Pass as a whole was banned from OU. Allowing every other Silvally form except for a specific one is stupid, and goes against this philosophy. No matter what form you have, you're basically always getting a Mega Smeargle which can change types and has a legitimate offensive presence. Either we ban Silvally as a whole, or don't ban it at all.
Just to reply to this train of thought: There's no reason Ghost Silvally can't be banned by itself. It has been decided that the Silvallys are tiered separately, so it doesn't go against smogon philosophy, and if Ghost Silvally is the only Silvally that's banworthy right now, why ban all the others? No opinion on the suspect itself.

Edit:Ninja'd
 
The only negative thing I see about banning Ghost Memory would be that physical Normal-type attackers wouldn't be able to use Ghost Multi-Attack anymore.

Though, are there Normal-types that actually use Ghost Multi-Attack as coverage? If not, then banning Ghost Memory shouldn't have many repercussions.
 

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