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Stall in SM OU

Discussion in 'Policy Review' started by blunder, Jan 18, 2017.

  1. UltiMario

    UltiMario Out of Obscurity
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    As previously mentioned, this isn't even a discussion we should start for a long time. It's too early in the metagame to look at playstyles when we're still trying to figure out the initial banlist. However, if we absolutely must entertain this discussion now, there's a few things I'd like to talk about.

    Let's maybe try and get some objectivity on the matter. I have some personal opinions against how trapping in general is discussed in the context of the last 2 or 3 gens, but I'll try and keep this post to some facts only. Let's use some data to try and build up a real argument here.

    ORAS can only provide a limited view to the future of the SM tier, but it's at least an indicator of rough patterns based on past tiering decisions.

    Of course, there's the obvious one that we'll get out of the way first: We went to save Sab once with a STag ban, then ended up banning Sab in the long run. I feel like talking about this is beating a dead horse, but there's at least some precedent that removing trappers does not significantly reduce the power of Sableye in a metagame. It cuts off one of its best support options, but the fundamental issues of why Sableye is the core of every stall team is still there. It still prevents hazards and stallbreaking options like Status and Taunt from really impacting most stall teams, where as otherwise those types of stallbreakers are significant threats to those team types. Again, everyone's heard this one, so let's move onto something that's a little more recent.

    The impact of Sableye's ban on Dugtrio in ORAS. Dugtrio is significantly more powerful in SM, and I doubt it'd fall from OU without Sableye's presence, but the incredible impact Sableye has when leaving a metagame can't be understated. I'll be looking at a number of stats here:

    Show Hide
    Dugtrio's usage pre-Sab ban (ou-1695):
    | 51 | Dugtrio | 3.73668% | 73067 | 1.292% | 53932 | 1.294% |

    Dugtrio's usage last month (ou-1695):
    | 70 | Dugtrio | 1.98665% | 17494 | 1.455% | 13185 | 1.525% |

    Dugtrio's current performance in ORAS SPL:
    | 33 | Dugtrio | 1 | 5.00% | 100.00% |

    Current SM Duggy usage:
    | 19 | Dugtrio | 9.04439% | 88332 | 3.941% | 64191 | 3.889% |

    SM SPL results:
    | 7 | Dugtrio | 10 | 16.67% | 60.00% |

    ADV SPL results:
    | 7 | Dugtrio | 5 | 25.00% | 60.00% |

    ADV OU usage last month (ou-1695):
    | 14 | Dugtrio | 16.92944% | 4352 | 14.203% | 3075 | 12.746% |


    As stated earlier in this thread, it's not impossible to build a decent Sab-less stall team, and Dugtrio is still fairly good in non-stall teams. However, let me remind you all that there was serious discussion to try and ban Dugtrio from ORAS for the sole reason of keeping Sableye in the tier. The argument ended up being shut down since Dugtrio never really compared to its Shadow Tag brethren and ultimately Sableye left the tier. In it's wake, we see a Dugtrio that's overall underperforming. It has won in its single appearance in SPL, but if it really was something that could be squeezed onto non-sableye stall to great effect we'd be seeing more of it. Its usage in OU mirrors this sentiment. If we want to analyze this data to project the impact of Sableye on Dugtrio's usage in the SM OU metagame, you can look at varying factors, including team mate statistics, percentage point drop, or raw percentage drop depending on how you want to interpret the data, which would leave Dugtrio with 4.83% to 7.29% usage, heavily favoring the 7.2% zone.

    The significance of those statistics can project the impact of Dugtrio and Sableye on the metagame, to an extent. One point I'd like to bring up that a Sableye ban would certainly bring Dugtrio's usage to less than half of gen 3 usage stats, and I can't even remember a time where I heard someone bring up banning Duggy in ADV OU. Obviously the more gens we drift from SM the harder comparing gens becomes, but data does drive a significant point: At all levels of play, Dugtrio performs better by itself in RS (the metagame where Dugtrio's place in the metagame is most similar: a very strong "generic" trapper) than in SM, and only at the top level of play in combination with Sableye does it exceed that level of power (Sab 80% WR, 4/5 games). I'd also like to throw in there that removing Sab stats from current SPL record would leave Duggy at 5 games and 40% WR, which isn't exactly outstanding.

    The reason I bring this up is to remind everyone here that "trapper hate" is an extremely recent and maybe misguided approach to the game. Sableye+Dugtrio is quite strong, but there isn't an objective measurement to really say it's Dugtrio that's overperforming. We've survived ADV where Dugtrio was in an even better position and nobody even bats an eye. On the other hand, I'm sure there's a number of you that are looking at this thread and would ban Dugtrio even if we got Sableye out of the way first. The point I'm trying to make here is that I don't really think that a lot of the Sab or Duggy ban talk is being very objective, and is mostly down to discussion between pro players about what types of games pro players do and do not enjoy playing. There's a good amount of statistics we can look at that we can really use to create an argument very much bound in realism, and most people tend to ignore it for anecdotal discussion.

    I'm pretty tired and I went and re-edited this post a few times before submitting, so I might've had some repeat phrases in there or something, but I'll cut it down into a tl;dr:

    We're not far enough into the metagame to really make a call yet. However, current evidence implies heavily that Dugtrio isn't inherently broken, especially when compared to previous metagames, and likely not the Pokemon at fault if stall becomes an issue in the future. P.S. Less subjectivity, more objectivity.
  2. njnp

    njnp

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    Yea, this is still an issue. There are 5 viable stalls right now in tour play and ladder play which is the most I've ever seen playing on mons servers for 5 years.


    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    SPL Stall
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Ciele Stall
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    NJNP Stall
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Leftiez Stall
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    TDK Stall

    These are the relevant tour builds you can find many different variations if u wanna go on ladder but yea..you can't make a team that beats all these stalls without being weak to normal threats/normal teams. It has come to a point where you just have to pick which stall to prep for and pray you are correct. The "only" safe thing that can be consistent vs all of these builds as me and ABR realized as we were talking is max atk rocks from lando and even then you need to play well to keep them up. I'm honestly not really sure what this post will accomplish before wcop but I had to say something on this matter.
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2017
  3. TDK

    TDK
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    We tested Dugtrio towards the start of the metagame because, at the time, we felt stall, thanks to Dugtrio, was too strong. The community voted against banning Dugtrio, choosing not to take any action.

    I'm not going to rule out any future tests that are aimed at "nerfing" stall, but they won't be for a while unless stall becomes more pressing than it is right now. Retesting Dugtrio (or Arena Trap) can happen, but it's basically going to be a second test regardless of if it's Arena Trap or Dugtrio, and we aren't going to test it a second time so soon after it was voted to not be banned. If someone would like to argue for a reason to suspect Mega Sableye rather than Dugtrio, feel more than free to bring it up here, but as of right now I don't believe it should happen and there really hasn't been any interest expressed on the Council for prioritizing Sableye over Dugtrio. Not ruling out the possibility of it happening, but I disagree with it being more pressing than Dugtrio and haven't seen anyone formally express interest in a test for Sableye since ORAS outside of Tele's post in this thread a few months ago.

    Talking about the Stalls that NJNP outlined, I disagree with the degree of "viability" he's speaking of. I'm not going to bother with the standard Stall team because everyone knows the team and thinks it's a very solid team. The other teams, however, have a multitude of issues and are borderline unviable in the current metagame.

    Ciele's team, with the release of Mega Medicham, is practically unusable in the current metagame. Medicham is capable of 2HKOing or OHKOing every member of the team with just High Jump Kick / Zen Headbutt / Thunder Punch. If paired with something like Tapu Koko or a Pokemon capable of pressuring Clefable hard, stuff to keep rocks up, or stuff to Knock Off Clefable's Leftovers, it makes it even easier and doesn't require Medicham to have Zen Headbutt. The quickest way to alleviate this issue is to run Groundium Dugtrio, which can OHKO Medicham, but this opens the team up to a lot of threats and makes playing stall a lot more difficult without Sash. Things like Kyurem-B, Heatran, and two 'Mons you need Groundium for (MMedi, Hoopa-U, Mega Mawile, etc). While some teams can afford to run Groundium Dugtrio viably, I don't think this team is one of them.

    NJNP's team struggles greatly with SD + SR Landorus-T, even moreso than the other stall teams mentioned in the post. Due to the lack of an Unaware Pokemon, the only existing counterplay is to go Tangrowth and HP Ice, which fails to OHKO even after rocks. Another issue with the team is, due to the lack of Chansey, Dugtrio is forced to gt Rocks up. After experience with using this set, Dugtrio is one of the worst Rockers possible on Stall, as getting it in isn't easy and getting them up is just as challenging. Not to mention the fact that, without a Chansey, this team greatly struggles with Volcarona. Psychic Volcarona is capable of defeating the team with ease, as the only existing counter play is preserving Dugtrio's Sash and keeping Mega Sableye completely healthy, and then getting good rolls between Sableye Knock Off -> Dugtrio Earthquake.

    Leftiez stall I admittedly am not super familiar with, but this team simply doesn't seem good. Toxapex is capable of sitting on everything, beating every 'Mon but Dugtrio one on one and keeping Toxic Spikes up pretty well when packed behind offensive pressure or with a Pressure 'Mon like Zapdos or Suicune. SD SR Landorus is an even bigger threat than most stall builds because of the fact if they're up the game is basically 6-4. Ground/Dragonium Z Garchomp, Shed Shell Lele, Rocks + Zapdos + Regenerator Pokemon, and SD Bulu also all pressure this variant of stall even harder than others. Not to mention the fact things like Tapu Fini coupled with a breaker not easily killed by Dugtrio, Sub Coil Zygarde with Toxic, Sub Seed Serperior, and Manaphy all also obliterate this stall due to the lack of Clefable / Toxapex / Grass-type. This team relies entirely on keeping Rocks off the field and that's much easier said than done when you face a team that doesn't just bend over to Stall.

    Lastly, the Pyukumuku team I liked at the time of creation, but it simply is not that good now. Firstly, Rocks on Dugtrio is not good, as I detailed out earlier. And all sorts of new trends that were popularized after I used the team in SPL pressure it. CB Zygarde without absolutely flawless prediction just dismantles the team, Shed Shell Lele practically can't lose vs this team, Mega Metagross + reliable Rocker is more than capable of breaking this team as it relies on Skarmory to beat it, as well as the fact Zapdos + anything that can beat CM Blissey seems unbeatable. Simply put I wouldn't bother with this team anymore without major reworking.

    But yeah, if it wasn't really evident I don't think any of these stall teams are worthwhile in the current metagame aside from the tried and true variant. Maybe a new one can surface between now and WCoP, but I don't think there is. That's not to say these teams won't be used, but the weaknesses these teams have don't really bring up any reason to want to ban a similar aspect on these teams.
  4. Leftiez

    Leftiez Geeeuaahhh...
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    I totally disagree with your entire post, most of these teams bar mine (which was built during pheromosa era hence why there is a shedinja to begin with) can adapt, ciele stall doesn't lose against Medicham if you decide to use Sucker Punch + Earthquake which is a blatant 2HKO with really prior damages:

    252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Medicham-Mega: 156-184 (59.7 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Dugtrio Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Medicham-Mega: 73-86 (27.9 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

    While you can still use Pursuit as a Marowak / Lele Shed Shell counter measure even though Knock Alomomola might be enough for that if you play correctly.
    Obviously you have to drop Screech but and so ? Screech only works in stall vs stall matchup so you have an easier pp stalling because there are no win condition so this is definitly not a big loss.

    In case of NJNP's Stall, ben gay proved that dropping Sr for Whirlwind on Skarmory was a better add as you don't have any Unawares user, so yeah once again you can drop Screech on dug and keep Eq / Stone Edge / Pursuit (no need reversal as you are using eject button Toxapex and still trap everything the team needs you to trap (Volcarona / Marowak / shed lele) while now countering any sort of SD Lando.

    I really didn't get what you tried to explain in your post but if that was so much easy, stall wouldn't be a dominant playstyle and the one with the most wins in our official tournaments right now.
  5. I'm Rick Astley

    I'm Rick Astley
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    I won't make this post about the overall state of the meta, but instead I'd prefer to look at the arguments in the suspect thread. Dugtrio received a very high 58% ban vote, which is obviously just short of the supermajority. We've had tests that came close to a ban before, but didn't quite cut it, but what really separates the Dug test out from other close tests are a lot of posts like P2's and Tele's:

    http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sm-ou-suspect-process-round-2-dirt.3595351/page-7#post-7234023
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sm-ou-suspect-process-round-2-dirt.3595351/page-2#post-7228692

    The reasons they gave for not banning Dugtrio here weren't because stall is fine, but because they believe Sableye is the problem instead. That means that while a supermajority of voters didn't agree on Dugtrio being a problem, there is a strong consensus among the community that something needs to be done about stall in its current state. I realise that stall isn't an easy style to suspect test members of because you can't really separate out the different parts of a core in the same way that you can on offence. While most people might agree on stall being a problem, we can't agree on what the exact cause is, which is a tough dilemma to solve.

    Stall being untouched after the test wasn't because of a mistake of the council, but based on the overall feeling in this thread and the Dug suspect thread I believe deciding not to look at stall for a long time would be a mistake. This might involve doing something like having a couple of a weeks of a Dugless ladder, then a couple of weeks of a Sabless ladder to see which pokemon is actually at fault, but we ought to still be looking at this teamstyle as a major issue in the current metagame.
  6. njnp

    njnp

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    Yea tdk's post imo was poor, I already made my comments on it. Only thing the post bout the light was the councils views/position on stall which are very displeasing.

    Show Hide
    Screenshot_20170428-134029.jpg

    Screenshot_20170428-134105.jpg


    I don't need to express addition opinion that isn't already covered in those screenshots of me replying to tdk's post and leftiez covered in his nice post.

    Bless Up.

    Attached Files:

  7. MrAldo

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    It is actually amazing how the only constant between the 5 stall teams posted in Dugtrio, yet people insist in calling Mega Sableye the problem. Really interesting.

    I think the dugtrio suspect has some interesting results despite not being what some people wanted or expected. I think the only "fault" of the dugtrio suspect was the timing cause most of the people visioned other Pokemon as far more broken and concerning than Dugtrio atm, and a Dugtrio retest is doable (but like in a distant future) since technically the majority (58%) though Dugtrio should have been banned but didnt due to suspect politics. Not suggesting any change on the supermajority since I believe that works. And that a retest sounds doable in the future based on the results.

    I still insist Dugtrio is the problem and that abilities like Arena Trap are just plain broken. Mega Sableye on a metagame where hazard control is actually fucking atrocious looks more like a healthy presence instead. The only thing that bothers me greatly is calling Manaphy and serperior unviable, but thats a completely different topic.
  8. John

    John
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    Literally Skarmory.

    On a more related note, the notion that you absolutely have to prepare for each and every stall archetype that NJNP presented in his post is definitely a stretch. It is simply impossible to do this while still having a team that functions well vs everything else. This isn't even a stall problem either, just the nature of the game. More and more threats added = harder to account for everything. Additionally, not all of those teams are what you'd call consistent or even practical, as TDK outlined in his post (excluding standard vanilla stall because that one is pretty tried and true).

    All that isn't to say that I don't think there is a problem btw. I wasn't exactly sure 3 months ago and still am not. The rest of the council also hasn't felt strongly enough about the stall "issue" to propose a change from what I remember. Doing something like testing Dugtrio/Arena Trap so soon after it was voted to stay in OU would simply make it look like we are pushing an agenda in my opinion. I think the best course of action for right now is to be patient and see what happens to the metagame with the next couple of tests. If people continue to see this as a big issue moving forward, we can look at tackling this from a different angle.
  9. njnp

    njnp

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    All these stalls except leftiez stall and I guess tdk stall have been proven with consistent tour wins in various tournaments. That statement is disregarding the fact tdk won with his in spl and marshall should have with leftiez if he didnt play so poorly. There also is yes the tired consistent stall that went undefeated in spl. You also have to consider all these variants work really consistent on ladder as well which the council seems to keep disregarding.

    I'm sry but the you guys the council just keep posting the same bullshit supporting your ideals and just rewording it. I mean it kinda is ridiculous that some council members additimely are just ignoring people who ask them about their opinions of metagross suspect cause they didn't include them in the metagross post.
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2017
    Get this Money and Leo like this.
  10. Martin

    Martin Like the hole in a doughnut
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    I put off posting in here before the Duggy suspect 'cause I was a bit worried about the type of response a post like this would get at the time, but in hindsight having regrets over a Pokemon forum is fucking stupid so I'm just going to do it. If there's backlash then there's backlash and I can just boil it off by doing things that aren't Pokemon.

    I stand by the statement that Sab makes Duggy an issue and not vice versa, and the fact that Dugtrio is not unhealthy on offense is testament to the fact that the issue doesn't come from trapping in a vacuum. Honestly I do think that the effect of trapping abilities gets overstated, and I never have had–and never will have–any issues with them, but the big thing to notice with Dugtrio is that the moment you remove the element of hazard control without drawbacks that you get with Mega Sableye is that being able to actually use it with anywhere near as much consistency is harder than it was before; if you can't block hazards, you have to regularly remove them with Skarmory or Zapdos or whatever spinner/defogger(s) you opt to use in order to keep Dugtrio's Sash in tact, and if you lack Sash you can only really get Dugtrio in on doubles, faints, and weak attacks as opposed to having any of the same freedom that you get from being able to bust it on switch-in to fire off a Reversal/EQ or whatever as well as losing the freedom to trap things which use DD/QD/whatever after doubling in due to the fact that you can't bust it on their attack. Part of the reason why Sashless Duggy functions on offense is because sacking things is much less crippling due to the playstyle functioning as a series of 2-3 'mon cores as opposed to a single six-'mon core and because you can also fall back on things like VoltTurning (which stall doesn't have the luxury of running short of Pyuku without sacrificing other important tools) to get it out versus what it needs to trap.

    The other thing to consider is that, while Dugtrio traps a lot of stallbreakers right now, without Sableye a lot that Duggy doesn't trap with the same type of consistency/at all without sacrificing Sash become a lot more effective in that explicit role. I'm talking about things like Mew and Taunt Gliscor and other traditional stallbreakers that Sab either stalemates or completely shuts down. If the issue is that Pokemon like Tran or Tyranitar or Lele which otherwise give stall a huge headache get trapped by Sash Duggy, then the issue isn't the fact that Duggy can trap and remove them so much as the fact that the stallbreaking methods which don't get trapped as consistently simply lack the potency due to the presence of another overbearing threat. As much as I'm sure everyone's sick of the comparison between XY stall and ORAS stall due to the fact that every pro-sab ban poster has used it a trillion times, it is definitely worth noting the stark difference in the effectiveness of trapping abilities on stall as an archetype, the methods of stallbreaking which were used, and the potency of the stallbreakers which Dugtrio has difficulty with between the two metagames that the introduction of Mega Sableye caused, and realistically speaking the attack buff that Dugtrio got doesn't offset this to an extent where I would expect it to change it.

    That said, I don't really have any issues with stall at this point in time. While I do believe that it could be looked into in the future 'cause it is definitely pretty unreasonable to prep for it fully without falling flat vs. other things, I think that this is in large part due to the fact that there are significantly more pressing issues in the tier that would need to be addressed before we can identify whether stall is actually unreasonable to build for or whether it is just that we can't properly deal with the restriction on both sides (see: Mega Metagross, Greninja etc.) that require compromising other matchups to deal with. I don't really agree with having suspects which don't fall that close to the bulls-eye in the (admittedly somewhat outdated) characteristics of an uber until other candidates which do fall more blatantly into them have been looked into, and this includes looking into nerfing playstyles (what people are talking about with regards to stall atm).
  11. TDK

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    I guess it wasn't clear enough, but my post isn't even stating that I think stall isn't "too good" or anything of the sort, simply that the reasoning NJNP provided in his first post was quite poor due to the fact he greatly exaggerated the viability of multiple stall builds when only one, maybe two, stall build(s) actually holds consistency in the current OU metagame. Sure, inconsistent or bad teams can be used, and even win an important game or win multiple games, but that doesn't mean the team is good. I don't think any of the teams NJNP displayed are worthwhile in this metagame as I detailed in my prior post.

    Both the Shedinja and the Pyukumuku team are simply unviable in this metagame; at most there are two viable variants of stall right now. Sure, some can come up, but that's not at all the point of my post, this discussion, or relevant right now.

    Ciele's team relies entirely on
    a) keeping rocks off the field to beat Mega Medicham, as you can't even suicide Defog to get them off vs it;
    b) using Alomomola + Dugtrio to beat Shed Shell Lele
    c) using Skarmory + Clefable + Alomomola to beat offensive Garchomp

    Not to mention the fact this team has an absurd weakness to Tapu Koko, relying on chipping at it with Chansey and Clefable. This team is far weaker to it due to not only the lack of a Sableye, allowing stall a switch in to non-Gleam Stallbreaker Koko, but also the multitude of hazards the standard team has, chipping Koko greatly. Ciele's team greatly misses the lack of Toxic Spikes, amplifying the issue of the aforementioned threats.

    Sure, I was probably too harsh on this team in this metagame, but none of the other variants are good, consistent teams.

    Except Whirlwind Skarmory isn't a perfect Landorus counter. If Skarmory takes a +2 Continental Crush, it's basically out of commission for the entire game. Not to mention the fact +2 Edge can easily dent Skarmory enough that it can't check Landorus the next time it comes in. You legitimately can not counter Landorus-T adequately on stall without using both Skarmory + an Unaware Pokemon; there's no way around it. Whirlwind Skarmory is far from a perfect answer, despite you making it out to be.

    Not to mention the fact you're acting like ben gay's variant flawlessly handles these threats when his Dugtrio was Groundium Z which leaves the team incredibly open to Volcarona. I've also never seen this team use Stone Edge Dugtrio in the many times I've seen it in action, but sure it can run it to handle Volcarona.

    Legitimately nothing you pointed out in your two screenshots refute any of my points about the stalls being inconsistent or not viable enough to take into consideration for tiering. I'm not going to cover what I've already said earlier in this post in response to Leftiez, but you say things like "the shedinja team in the right hands can easily win games" and pointing out if you mispredict vs stall, you're likely to lose. Yes, those are things that can happen, but that's apart of Pokemon. If you play better than your opponent does, you typically will win the game. That's pretty much what we aim for with tiering. When both sides are high level players, the player who wins should play near flawlessly to win the game.

    Beyond the Ciele team, I also totally disagree with your opinions about the stall builds and fail to see how they aptly respond to the threats I pointed out other than stating "no they're not weak to that," which is what your response ultimately translates to.

    As I said previously in this post, winning a single tournament game or a series of games does not make a team good, especially when said games took place in a metagame that is no longer current. If all you have in response is that they've won a tournament game I'm not sure what I'm supposed to respond with, because winning a tournament game does not make a team good by default.

    You complain about us responding and holding the same opinion but complain about a lack of communication in the same paragraph. I'm not sure what exactly you expect from us other than to simply act to your every whim.

    If you don't want to offer any reasoning for your opinions, which you really haven't so far other than stating that having 5 viable stalls make stall need a nerf (which would not necessarily be true even if there were 5 viable stall builds), then I'm not sure what you're attempting to gain out of publicly calling us out. You simply have called my post bad, complain about the Council "posting the same bullshit," and attempted to dispute my post while stating things like the stall user will win vs someone if they play better, which is pretty much what we hope for in tiering, not an "issue".
  12. Leftiez

    Leftiez Geeeuaahhh...
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    Don't get me wrong though, my post wasn't about you spreading bullshit or w/e you think it is, njnp said that, not me, it was just to point out the fact that the same way metagame adapt to stall the same way stall adapt to metagame and i can see this still being an issue later, however i agree with bro fist on the fact that metagame naturally becomes harder to cover with pokemon being added up each generation but then should we consider it as a relevant point in our tiering process ?
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  13. praj.pran

    praj.pran unreal!!
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    some stats from st
    Clefable / Chansey / Dugtrio / Skarmory | 102 | 3.76% | 70.59%
    Toxapex / Clefable / Skarmory / Sableye / Chansey / Dugtrio | 49 | 1.81% | 69.39%
    Clefable / Alomomola / Skarmory / Zapdos / Chansey / Dugtrio | 42 | 1.55% | 73.81%
    honestly this is some worrisome stats
    all duggy does is trap the problematic mon and kill it which is kinda stupid tbh and bit uncompetitive its due to its stupid ability arena trap plz do smt abt it before wcop
    (quick ban arena trap ._<)
    if stall was easy to beat it wouldn't be having such good win ratio in st :C
    just wanted to sparkle the dicussion again <_<
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  14. p2

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    Honestly before anything can be done here, I think we should establish what the key problem of these teams are, and the collateral damage of what can happen whether Sablenite, Dugtrio or even some other component of these teams are looked at.

    I've been a proponent of a Sablenite suspect since oras because I think it's the key issue with stall. I don't necessarily think stall is too broken at this stage in the meta, but it is very difficult to prepare for between Sab stall + double defog stall, all of which have different forms of counterplay to each others threats, and I do feel a nerf to stall is something that should be considered in the near future. The tier is pretty balanced atm especially with mgross+bp bans, there's nothing massively overbearing outside of stall which I guess has made it a little easier to prepare for but it should still be looked at.

    Anyway, the restrictions Mega Sableye(when paired with Arena Trap or vice versa) place on building and even playing are what I feel push it over the edge. I don't think a single thing on stall is broken, but when there's a combination, it definitely feels like something should be done, but what?

    • Banning Sablenite: My main issue with Sablenite is that it suffocates counterplay through status, you can't rely on taunt users nor can you reliably get rocks up, this is a pretty big deal when double defog stall is similarly common and rides off the fact that stallbreakers like Mew or Gliscor and Stealth Rock users like Terrak, Tran have fallen out of favour over the last little while. Banning Sablenite reduces the number of big stall builds and effectiveness of them, but not to the point where they are unviable, they still have the option of trapping threats with Dugtrio and they can still outplay threats.. It's a heavy nerf for sure, but it means there isn't such a radical difference between the main stall teams and usually provides the option of good consistent options that can constantly put in work vs stall (aforementioned Mew, Gliscor, makes getting hazards and applying pressure against defog users easier)

    • Banning Arena Trap: Banning Arena Trap will completely crush stalls viability in the tier and make it near impossible to function as a legitimate playstyle, going with an Arena Trap ban is an extremely huge buff to stallbreakers and pretty much anything else that isn't immune bar fat grasses. this also removes strategy some offensively based teams rely on such as using Dugtrio to remove threats like Toxapex, Heatran, Tyranitar + others. Along with destroying stalls viability, it removes legitimate options non-stall teams have available and removes some counterplay for big threats. However it ensures stall will not be problematic again. But, the result of the Duggy suspect test doesn't make this a particularly viable option until at least another few months down the line.

    • Other?: There aren't really other options. Banning Chansey is a dumb meme. Toxapex? Defog? Magic Bounce itself??
    There's very little to go off of though, there's nothing to show which idea may be the better idea, there is no current meta without either threats for players to make a judgment for themselves. Suspect ladders aren't a good indication of a meta because people just spam sample teams with little to no regard of meta development nor do they seem to give a shit about what happens at the end of the process. Perhaps the bp ban will vastly reduce this, but that's an entirely different issue.

    I think an extended suspect process for all of the involved components of stall should be looked at in one, with separate ladders to allow people to have a grasp of the meta and actually see what it looks like on both sides (one with no Sablenite, one with no Arena Trap). Providing the insight we need here will probably shed some light on what we should really do in the future about this. But just to clarify, my thought process on this is a problem exists with Mega Sableye + Dugtrio, but no problem exists with Dugtrio + anything else, but on the other hand, no problems really exist with Mega Sableye + anything else either. It's a pretty odd scenario, but targeting one side in a suspect clearly didn't work, so trying the other side may give the answer.
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  15. Mazinger

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    could ban unaware
  16. Robert Alfons

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    Can somebody please reiterate why Shadow Tag is considered uncompetitive but Arena Trap, which largely does the same thing but fails to trap a handful of things that Shadow Tag does trap (still leaving you capable of trapping over 2/3 of the tier), may not be uncompetitive? I have trouble seeing how banning Arena Trap is even remotely controversial, seeing how we have a strong precedent in the form of the ban on Shadow Tag.
  17. ABR

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    I'd like to start off by saying that the council is completely open to the idea of a Sableye suspect test, as well as retesting Dugtrio / Arena Trap. However, we still don't think that stall as a whole is problematic, and really nothing has changed over the last month. If anything, less focus on covering Metagross/BP should leave room for more stall prep, when there already was some room to begin with. If stall wasn't worthy of a test one month ago then it most definitely is not now. You may see that there is an issue and that's fine but at the moment the council does not. There are many ways to break stall - you just have to treat prepping for Skarm and the boys like you do Greninja and Zygarde.

    A smaller banlist is an idealized banlist, assuming the metagame is balanced either way. That is not a council belief but rather a belief of the greater Smogon philosophy, and it makes sense too. We only create and implement rules when there is a problem worth addressing. OU tiering, as a whole, deemed Shadow Tag "uncompetitive" solely as a criteria for banning it, because it was hindering the metagame. Confuse Ray is technically "uncompetitive" but it isn't overpowering or harming the metagame so we don't touch it. In the same vein, if Arena Trap isn't deemed a reasonable hinderance to the metagame (it currently is not to the council) then it shouldn't be tested. This is also why Arena Trap or Shadow Tag aren't banned in older generations - they aren't deemed a largely negative presence. Additionally, there is the fact that Smogon usually tries to ban pokemon first, and only abilities when abilities break multiple pokemon (except weird form-change cases like Zygarde-C). In the case of Shadow Tag, most people found Wobb and Gothita to also be negative presences in the metagame, and I'm not sure the same can be said about Diglett.


    In regards to all of the aforementioned points, and to both p2 and Robert Alfons, I'd like to clarify a few things. When I say that "the council believes x", it isn't an example of us being unjustly tyrannical. We are who we are because we make tiering decisions that aren't entrusted onto the masses. If we simply took the will of the Smogon masses then there wouldn't be a need for the existence of a council at all.

    Additionally, the same Smogon masses deemed Dugtrio deserving of staying OU not too long ago, so it's still a bit soon to retest there. We obviously can't repeatedly test things that stay OU because then that tilts the scale in favor of the pro ban side always. So, the only possible test at this point in time would be Sableye, but Sableye isn't currently deemed a problem so nothing is happening at this point in time.

    I hope I cleared everything up.
  18. njnp

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  19. PK Gaming

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    Here's a summary:
    • The most problematic aspect of stall is Dugtrio, who cripples anti-stall counterplay by easily removing stallbreakers.
    • The rise of GroundiumZ + Screen Dugtrio has made stall even more difficult to deal with.
    • "Stallbreaker Pokemon" is an outdated concept, because you need several anti-stall measures to succeed against stall. Compared to previous gens, there is no such thing as a Pokemon that reliably breaks stall by itself. For example, Tapu Bulu for example is a great anti-stall Pokemon in paper, but gets trapped and toxic'd by Dugtrio if it's not using Substitute.
    • Even teams that run many stallbreakers can potentially lose. This is because as long as Dugtrio does its job, you will be walled out by Chansey, Skarmory, etc.
    • In standard OU, you need to prep for many team styles. Sticky Web teams, rain teams, Magearna, etc. Stall puts considerable pressure on team building. There's the argument that you can't prepare for everything, but stall exacerbates this issue greatly.
    • Stall is extremely adaptable. There are many variants of stall are difficult to deal with. Preparing for one variant can put you at risk to another.
    • Arguments like "if we ban Dugtrio stall will be crippled" are both irrelevant (because we've never catered to a specific playstyle) and untrue (Reyscarface succeeded without it)
    • Dugtrio + Eject Button is arguably the worst aspect of stall, given how mindless, easy and effective it is.
    • Important excerpt.
    • Roughly 58 games have been played in WCOP so far, with Dugtrio being used in 25 of those games (43%). High usage alone is not an indicator of whether a Pokemon is overpowered, but along with all of the points raised so far, it's symptomatic of a bigger issue.
    • Reyscarface's went undefeated in SPL solely using stall. Not to discount skill, but this is more evidence stall's overwhelming strength in gen VII.
    • Another important excerpt.
    • Similarly, ben gay tore through OST using Dugtrio. Again, I'm not discounting player skill, but using ben gay's own words
    • "Dugtrio is broken, and i'm using it to win" (paraphrased)
    • Mega Sableye is nowhere close to being the best aspect of stall
    • Refer to this post.
    • Dugtrio is constraining to the player facing it, because they're unable to make simple plays (such as pivoting into a bulky mon) without worrying about Dugtrio trapping and KOing it or using Toxic.
    • We've banned Shadow Tag for being uncompetitive, and Arena Trap is similarly overwhelming.
    • When Dugtrio was able to trap a Pokemon and kill/toxic, it went 16-0. That's a 100% win rate when Dugtrio was able to accomplish its main goal.
    • The rest of the video covers high level matchups involving Stall.
    • Misplaying against Dugtrio (or assuming the wrong Dugtrio set) can straight up cost you the game.
    • The assertion that a Dugtrio ban would cripple stall is both irrelevant (we don't cater our bans towards a specific team style) and wrong (Reyscarface himself used a team without Dugtrio to prove that you can succeed).
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2017
  20. Ciele

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    I don't really care either way about Dugtrio anymore but I feel the need to reply to the above (or the aim/njnp video, I guess).

    Something I feel gets overlooked in regards to Dugtrio/stall is that while Dugtrio is a big asset to stall, it's also one of the biggest threats to stall. Dugtrio can trap and eliminate important stall Pokemon so one of the many absurd power Pokemon in the tier can flatten the opposing team. For example, non-Toxapex stall is going to have huge trouble beating Zard Y if their Chansey gets trapped. If Unaware Clefable is preventing one of your broken setup Pokemon from sweeping, you can always trap that instead. The WCoP R1 stats that some like referencing actually show that Dugtrio + Charizard as a combination had a higher win rate than both Dugtrio + Chansey and Dugtrio + Sableye had. Of course, this argument can be used to show how powerful Dugtrio is as a whole, but if your problem is merely stall, banning Dugtrio might not be the best way of solving things.

    Another thing is, "reyscarface went undefeated in SPL solely using stall." He used stall twice. Twice. And that's out of ten games. In other words, 20%. To say he "solely" used it is not just inaccurate, it's completely wrong. I get that it's a lengthy video with a lot of discussion points, but these kind of things should really be fact checked if you're not entirely sure about them.

    Worse than the above is, "Roughly 58 games have been played in WCOP so far, with Dugtrio being used in 25 of those games (43%)." While this is technically true, none of our usage stats, whether it be ladder or tour, actually record usage stats in this manner. Expressing it this way is extremely deceiving and doesn't reflect the state of the metagame at all. When we say "Landorus has 45% usage" or "Greninja has 30% usage", we mean that it's on that percentage of teams, not that it's in that percentage of games. If we recorded usage in this way then Landorus would be closer to 70% and Greninja would be closer to 50%. Dugtrio's true usage in World Cup was 22.5%. Yes, this is still high, but it's not in the top five, nor is it even half of what Landorus-Therian had (45.42%).

    "When Dugtrio was able to trap a Pokemon and kill/toxic, it went 16-0. That's a 100% win rate when Dugtrio was able to accomplish its main goal." This is a nice statistic but it's presented in a way that only focuses on the positive side of it. Like, why is Dugtrio only accomplishing its goal in 16/54 games? Doesn't that show high inconsistency? Regardless, the stat isn't even correct, as can be seen here, where Dugtrio traps and KOes a Jirachi, yet the player still loses.

    I believe the problematic aspect of stall (if one exists) is Defog. Stall relies super heavily on keeping hazards off the field and it can't solely rely on Sableye and Rapid Spin to do it. I'm sure that without Defog, stall will lose a ton of its viability. Sableye stall will still be viable but it certainly won't be overpowered. It will also remove the "problem" of there being a variety of different kinds of stall. I don't expect Defog to ever be considered for testing (nor do I want to be) but if you want to remove a single element of the game to nerf stall then nothing would make a bigger difference than removing Defog.
  21. PK Gaming

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    Personally my problem is with Dugtrio itself, but if Dugtrio was such an effective tool against stall I imagine the goto counterplay to stall would be "just use Dugtrio" which clearly isn't true. It's undeniable that removing Dugtrio would weaken stall.

    My apologies.

    Hence the reason why I said that high usage by itself is not an indicator of whether something is overpowered or not. Greninja is another issue entirely, but nobody is going to seriously argue for a Landorus-T ban.

    The statistic shows a near perfect win-rate if Dugtrio traps something. I don't think that's a good thing. The game being over after Dugtrio trapped something certainly wasn't the case in previous gens.

    Granted, I'm nowhere near as experienced with Gen VII OU as you, but I emphatically disagree with this point. Every part of me—every fiber of my being says this wrong. I know that isn't a valid counterargument, but I feel like going after Defog at this point would be a fool's errand. Willfully denying every argument made against Dugtrio/Stall, causing this (imo undesirable) metagame to stay as is.
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  22. craing ;_;

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    I've read a few of the arguments, some good and some bad but I figured that I can provide an objective opinion on the matter, especially since people regard me as a notorious stall player. as far as stall goes as a playstyle, it's a common misconception that there is a singular stall build to prepare for, and as such standard vanilla, or better known as SPL stall, has for the most part been rendered obsolete. just as how every team should pack resistances to almost every type, hazards, win cons, etc., there is no reason that a well built sumo team should be utterly useless vs stall. unfortunately, being well equipped vs it requires you to pack at least two answers for it, preferably more but at least one solid answer and the secondary at least a buffer towards it. this is because of the presence of dugtrio more or less, which is able to at the very least eliminate one of those breakers. believe it or not, stall is actually an incredibly fragile playstyle and is extremely prone to any number of mons or combination of mons. that is why there are so much viable variations on it, as there is no one singular stall team that can handle everything in the meta, but rather a combination of them that collectively can. this can be said about any playstyle by means of how versatile the tier is but one thing that remains a fact is that there is no such thing as a good stall team without dugtrio, well at least not dugtrio perse but its role as the tier's only viable and dedicated trapper. dugtrio acting as a safety net gives stall a slight 'edge' over other playstyles, added to the fact of having much more reliable hazard removal/deterrents than any other archtype (though getting hazards up vs stall isn't impossible). this isn't necessarily the case vs other playstyles in terms of preparation. revenge killer/priority for set up sweepers, sturdy water resist(s) for rain and offensive waters, fast/strong pivot mons for offense, etc. dedicating a bit more towards dealing with stall is really only a consequence to the presence of dugtrio, as stall is by no means unmanageable or broken for that matter.

    the reason I think dugtrio is borderline overpowered is not necessarily because it makes stall better, but because of the lack of viable counterplay and it overcentralizing the metagame. you can't compare dugtrio to the likes of magnezone because it traps, outspeeds, and eliminates more than half the metagame with its three extremely potent sets in sash, scarf, and tec rage. being able to get rid of a broad list of threats that would otherwise overrun the majority of your team is different from getting rid of a few defensive steel types that wall or check a threat outright(notably ONLY ferrothorn and celesteela, with scizor being almost nonexistent atm and skarmory only really appearing on stall and having shed shell, which dugtrio can just trap after). as for pursuit, it isn't anywhere nearly as effective as it was in oras, also having to deal with the issue of its unreliability factor. as for dugtrio itself, there is no limit to what it can revenge as circumstances may vary, but anything that is grounded, isn't a ghost type, doesn't resist earthquake, and doesn't have a shed shell is fair game for it. it isn't even limited towards being on stall, as strategies such as zardy+dug or any other offensive threat allows it to play like magnezone but on a much grander scale. there are games that have been cited that showcase it doing a lot of work, or not much at all but most of the instances that have been cited are not indicative towards dugtrio's individual ability as a pokemon because those are games subject towards the players skill level and the flow of the game in general. trapping, specifically dugtrio with the ability arena trap, is an underlying issue that effects team match up, which is already heavily centralized and hard to deal with as new generations/threats are released.

    this isn't to say that dugtrio doesn't have its downsides. its frail as shit, requires dedicated hazard removal/deterrents for sash sets, and can only be brought in safely via volturn, eject button, lead, burning sash, double switch, after a sack or riskily on an attack it can tank. however it isn't a stretch to say that this mon has no counters because counter implies being able to switch out and putting it in check. the ability to straight up eliminate at least one if not more mons means that dugtrio will almost never be deadweight vs any good sumo team. even then it still pressures and supports as well as it does once it has accomplished what it has set out to do. toxic, memento, screech, pursuit, sucker punch, stealth rock, stone edge, reversal, substitute, earthquake. while it isn't the most glamourous in terms of its viable movepool, it does what it's capable of with the combination of stellar offensive stats and broken ability. and for anybody wondering why this is an issue in sumo, my argument also appeals towards oras, with dugtrio being arguably more broken there. as Ciele has elaborated before, this is because of the presence of defog but unless you want to ban defog and have this tier turn out to be completely hazard centric like older gens and rendering sr weak mons unviable, I don't believe a closer look at defog is a good idea. defog is a move that helps every playstyle, excluding and narrowing its use solely towards stall is completely and utterly ridiculous. hazards are an aspect of the game that affect every team, and its needless to say how good they are but that's a different topic for another discussion.

    i'm also not one to bring up statistics as I think they are for the most part unreliable, but the last vote towards dugtrio ban was a 58.67% majority, barely making the required 60% cut towards a ban. this is still a noticeable majority that apparently counts as the minority and while I do get you're speaking for the council and smogon as a whole, it still irks me to see that there is a problem that has yet to have been addressed even though its presence has persisted in this metagame since the start of the gen. while there are new megas that are being released, myself and many others believe that sumo really does need a new metagame shift from what it currently is. the fact that people are running shed shell toxapex, dugtrio to counter opposing dugtrio stall and also seeing the usual same mons with not much variation and innovation in team builds is worrisome towards the future of sumo. What I mean by that is that dugtrio invalidates, hinders the viability, and forces certain mons to be certain sets that otherwise isn't generally effective, all of which I believe to be an unhealthy indicator towards a mon's presence in the tier. while you can take that statement and apply it on a broader spectrum towards different pokes, as I have stated before dugtrio is a mon with very little if not any counterplay and if there is anything worth looking at right now in sumo it would be just that.
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2017
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