Metagame Sun and Moon Doubles Discussion Thread

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figured i'd type this before i go to sleep after rocking sun for around 4 hours and a half, here's a idea that i've had ever since i saw strength sap with shiinotic. i doubt this could be used as a solid core but who knows

Shiinotic @ Leftovers
Ability: Effect Spore/Rain Dish
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpAtk / 252 SpDef
Calm Nature
- Strength Sap
- Moonblast
- Spore
- Leech Seed/Giga Drain/Confuse Ray


Sableye @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Swagger
- Protect/Fake Out/Will-o-Wisp
- Recover
- Foul Play

the general idea of the set is to set up swagger with sableye prior to mega evo (or do the effects of prankster remain even after the first turn of mega evo? i haven't looked too far into the new mega evo mechanics quite yet), and then let shiinotic use strength sap for massive damage. sableye runs mega for magic bounce and runs foul play to also abuse the effects of swagger, and then can run will-o-wisp to cripple after confusion ends or can run fake out/protect for utility. shiinotic runs strength sap because you get a ton of healing from +2 attack, moonblast for fairy stab and coverage, spore because 100% sleep is pretty nice IMO, and can run the last move as a flex move. i was thinking effect spore for RNG, but rain dish might actually be useful with the re-resurgence of rain with pelipper.

thoughts? i'm still looking for feedback, i can think of a few counters off the top of my head (bisharp/scizor) for this core but i'd like to see what others think. idk quite yet where this could lead, but i feel like strength sap + swagger has some potential, despite these two mons having completely shit speed (30 and 20 respectively).
 
Before I misplace it, this is the list of currently available megastones.....

Gengarite
Scizorite
Pinsirite
Aerodactylite
Lucarionite
Kangaskhanite
Gyaradosite
Absolite
Alakazite
Garchompite
Sablenite
Metagrossite
Sharpedonite
Slowbronite
Glalitite
Salamencite

All other Mega Stones are unavailable and wont be legal in DOU until they get released in-game. PS may not properly reflect this and allow you to use other megas for the time being as things get situated.
What sucks is Mega beedrill got buffed thanls to the mega speed change and fell stinger... and i can't even use it :(
 

Crabominable @ Life Orb
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Atk / 40 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Ice Hammer
- Close Combat
- Wide Guard
- Protect

I have a feeling that with the advent of Skymin + Mega Mence and the new high speed ub's and tapu's we're going to see a revival of the full TR archetype, and with that in mind I've been testing out one of my new favorite mons, Crabominable. Iron Fist + LO hits like a truck on anything neutral and Ice offensive typing is B-E-A-utiful. 252 hp / 40 Sp Def allows it to live a modest tran heat wave with the rest dumped in attack. I was originally thinking of using safety goggles to make it a great ammon check, but it underspeeds amoon after one ice hammer so I went with life orb instead. I'm hesitant about wide guard + tect because they overlap with each other, but its defenses aren't good enough for it to run just wide guard, and neither of its coverage options are very decent.
 
Shiinotic @ Leftovers
Ability: Effect Spore/Rain Dish
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpAtk / 252 SpDef
Calm Nature
- Strength Sap
- Moonblast
- Spore
- Leech Seed/Giga Drain/Confuse Ray


Sableye @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Swagger
- Protect/Fake Out/Will-o-Wisp
- Recover
- Foul Play
With all these terrains effects and even more checks, although some old ones are nerfed, I doubt that Spore will give the same same momentum as it did in ORAS. For Shiinotic, I also think that Leech Seed and Confuse Ray are poor move choices. Strength Sap is also very situational, but seems promising (or maybe not... I'm iffy). However, it competes with Amoonguss's Rage Powder, which it doesn't have. Sitrus Berry over Leftovers & Effect Spore over Rain Dish for sure.

Mega Sableye is a waste of a Mega Slot. This ain't Singles where you bounce off hazards or other status moves. On the bright side, normal sableye may have a good niche since prankster Swagger (why bring this back?) and Will-o-Wisp will be good against Mega Salamence, Mega Kang, etc. Plus, I heard that Dark types are immune to Prankster, meaning Prankster Thundurus will have a hard time against Sableye.
 

Necrozma @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Psyshock
- Calm Mind
- Trick Room
- Moonlight

When I first saw Necrozma I immediately thought "stronger Cress" and so far I have been proven correct. From the testing I've done its 97/101/89 defenses, while not as good as cress's, are more than enough when combined with its ability Prism Armor which lets it wake 3/4 damage from super effective attacks. Its 127 base Sp Att assures that it doesn't require two or three calm minds to really become a power house.
 

Matt

Maybe monads might not matter
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Before I misplace it, this is the list of currently available megastones.....

Gengarite
Scizorite
Pinsirite
Aerodactylite
Lucarionite
Kangaskhanite
Gyaradosite
Absolite
Alakazite
Garchompite
Sablenite
Metagrossite
Sharpedonite
Slowbronite
Glalitite
Salamencite

All other Mega Stones are unavailable and wont be legal in DOU until they get released in-game. However, PS may not properly reflect this and allow you to use other megas for the time being as things get situated.
Apparently the starters are legal too:

 

emma

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DPL Champion
BEWARE THE BEWEAR

Bewear @ Leftovers
Ability: Fluffy
EVs: 208 HP / 224 Atk / 76 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 SpA / 0 Spe
- Bulk Up
- Substitute
- Hammer Arm
- Return

This thing is the real threat. Fairy weakness is a bit unfortunate but I still like this thing. It can set up on a lot of stuff like MKang, Rotom-W, Amoonguss, Lando-T, and a lot of -1 Mons. Lando-T makes a nice partner as it can take on Fighting and Flying types and Intimidate to allow more set-up. ZardY is cool too to resist Fighting and Fairy. Magearna can set Trick Room, resists Fairy and Psychic, and has FAIRY TYPE DRACO for Fightings.

BEWARE THE BEWEAR



 

Pocket

be the upgraded version of me
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http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/doubles-overview-rules-and-q-a-read-before-asking.3587197/

The Sun and Moon Doubles OU Banlist has been inputted into this thread. You can also see upcoming threads there as well. It will also be a place for Q&A in due time but I would prefer that be done here in the meantime and for people to properly learn the meta and new mechanics before that opens up.
Doubles OU is a format in which both players have two Pokémon on the field at the same time. All Pokémon except those on the banlist (found below) can be used in Doubles OU regardless of the Pokémon's tier in singles play. Unlike in VGC, all Pokémon default to level 100 instead of level 50 and all 6 members of the team are brought each game.
Play Restrictions
  • Endless Battle Clause: Players cannot use any moveset on any Pokémon capable of intentionally causing an endless battle. Thus:
  • A Pokémon may not carry Recycle and hold a Leppa Berry in conjunction with Heal Pulse and Milk Drink, Moonlight, Morning Sun, Recover, Roost, Slack Off, Soft-Boiled, or Wish.
  • A Pokémon may not hold a Leppa Berry while carrying Recycle and Pain Split.
  • A Pokémon may not hold a Leppa Berry while carrying Recycle and Fling.
  • Evasion Clause: Players cannot use the moves Double Team or Minimize.
  • Moody Clause: Players cannot use a Pokémon with the Moody ability.
  • OHKO Clause: Players cannot use the moves Fissure, Guillotine, Horn Drill, or Sheer Cold.
  • Species Clause: Players cannot have two Pokémon with the same Pokédex number on the same team
Pokémon Restrictions
Players cannot use the following Pokémon:
  • Mewtwo
  • Lugia
  • Ho-oh
  • Kyogre
  • Groudon
  • Rayquaza
  • Dialga
  • Palkia
  • Giratina
  • Giratina-Origin
  • Arceus
  • Reshiram
  • Zekrom
  • Kyurem-White
  • Xerneas
  • Yveltal
  • Solgaleo
  • Lunala
Move Restrictions
Players cannot use the following moves:
  • Dark Void
Players cannot use the following moves on the same team:
  • Gravity and sleep moves with below one hundred percent accuracy

The following is a summary of the changes to the SM banlist for the start of the metagame...
Bans:
Solgaleo
Lunala

Unban:
Swagger
Soul Dew
Salamencite
Shaymin-Sky
complete zygarde is playable?
 

kamikaze

The King Of Games
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complete zygarde is playable?
for now yes. the only way to use it is by using 10% or 50% zygarde formes.

it starts out in 10% form or 50% form before transforming mid battle to gain more hp when those two drops below half (it doesnt gain any other stats)

Wishiwashi is also another weird case. It transforms when its sent out and stays that way until its health belows 1/4

They are being given chances to play in the tier and see how it goes
 
I've had a lot of fun with Instruct Oranguru + Shell Smash Minior: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankdoublesou-479534451

That's a replay of me testing it.

Minior @ White Herb
Ability: Shields Down
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Acrobatics
- Rock Slide
- Explosion

Oranguru @ White Herb
Ability: Symbiosis
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Instruct
- Protect
- Stored Power
- Psych Up
 
for now yes. the only way to use it is by using 10% or 50% zygarde formes.

it starts out in 10% form or 50% form before transforming mid battle to gain more hp when those two drops below half (it doesnt gain any other stats)

Wishiwashi is also another weird case. It transforms when its sent out and stays that way until its health belows 1/4

They are being given chances to play in the tier and see how it goes
I would also like to add that it stays in school form until the end of the turn in which it goes below 25%. So if you recover health via leftovers or sitrus and end up above 25%, you stay in school form.
 

kamikaze

The King Of Games
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I would also like to add that it stays in school form until the end of the turn in which it goes below 25%. So if you recover health via leftovers or sitrus and end up above 25%, you stay in school form.
is this confirmed in game? I know Minior's Shields Down Mechanic works like this in-game but dont know about Wishiwashi (I found this out later Bughouse that Minior actually does change at end of turn)
 
is this confirmed in game? I know Minior's Shields Down Mechanic works like this in-game but dont know about Wishiwashi (I found this out later Bughouse that Minior actually does change at end of turn)
It has been confirmed in game that i does not revert based on HP change until the end of the turn.

Research Thread:

"A Pokemon with Schooling cannot have its ability removed by Worry Seed, Skill Swap, Entrainment, or Gastro Acid (UltiMario). Schooling will only start activating for Wishiwashi starting at level 20. Schooling's effect will not wear off until after the turn ends when the Pokemon's HP drops below 25% of its maximum"

Video
 


With all the new fairy types up and about, I thought I'd share my new favorite core.

Gengar is fantastic in this meta as it speed ties with Tapu Koko and also traps and ko's the other, slower Tapus. Will-O helps keep down physical attackers like Mence and Kang, as well as trickle down Celesteela, which is incredibly annoying to deal with sometimes. Taunt is an option over wisp if you feel you end up too weak to TR.

Lando-I is another Tapu Koko answer that I feel is going to be very big in this meta. 331 speed puts it above all the Tapus except for Koko and sludge bomb can finish off almost all of them. It is also a big Magearna answer, which is going to be a huge part of the meta as long as it remains unbanned. The third moveslot is open depending on what your team is lacking in. You can go rock slide if you're zard weak, or hp ice if you lack lando-t answers.

Genesect is the pivot which allows gengar to fully utilize its trapping abilities. U-turn also chunks both Tapu Bulu and Tapu Lele , especially at +1. It is also a huge compliment to Lando-I as it takes care of Lando-T, Celesteela, and Ice types, while Lando-I deals with basically every fire type that's decent in the current meta.

The addition of a strong fire and dragon type do well in rounding out a team built around this core, and a taunt user is almost mandatory if you decide to go with wisp Gengar in order to deal with TR.

Gengar-Mega @ Gengarite
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Will-O-Wisp
- Protect

Landorus @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Earth Power
- Sludge Bomb
- Rock Slide
- Protect

Genesect @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Download
EVs: 100 Atk / 156 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- U-turn
- Iron Head
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
 
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Salazzle

Salazzle @ Focus Sash
Ability: Oblivious
EVs: 8 HP / 252 SpA / 248 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Fire Blast
- Sludge Bomb
- Encore
- Fake Out

Salazzle is one of my favorite new support mons this gen. It has a great support movepool, notable moves being Fake Out, Encore, Disable, Will o Wisp, Taunt, and Knock Off, as well as the usual stuff like Protect and Sub. Unfortunately, its offensive movepool is pretty meh, the only good moves you get are Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Overheat (no Heat Wave) Sludge Bomb, and HP Ground and Ice.

Oblivious is a pretty nice ability too on a support mon that's kinda vulnerable to taunt (if you run a lot of support moves at least) it also has good matchups against most of the new fairy and steel types, which is great. Overall, it's a great mon, def give it a try.

btw Persian-Alola is p good, might post about that later
 
someone post sample teams that i can nab pls
Ask and ye shall recieve

Gengar-Mega @ Gengarite
Ability: Shadow Tag
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Will-O-Wisp
- Protect

Landorus @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Earth Power
- Sludge Bomb
- Rock Slide
- Protect

Genesect @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Download
EVs: 100 Atk / 156 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- U-turn
- Iron Head
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt

Volcanion @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 112 HP / 252 SpA / 144 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Heat Wave
- Substitute
- Protect

Salamence @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Hydro Pump
- Fire Blast
- Tailwind

Tapu Koko @ Life Orb
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Dazzling Gleam
- Taunt
- Protect
 
does anyone have any good counters to magearna? i've been struggling against the thing for a bit of time now and i can't find a good counter to it :/
 
does anyone have any good counters to magearna? i've been struggling against the thing for a bit of time now and i can't find a good counter to it :/
Fire types and steel types. Zard Y, Aegislash, and Heatran stand out, just be careful of aura sphere/hp ground
 

Z Strats

Banned deucer.
does anyone have any good counters to magearna? i've been struggling against the thing for a bit of time now and i can't find a good counter to it :/
Zard Y and volcanion are probably they biggest ones since magearna is running aura sphere over tbolt right now alolan marowak would probably be a good one. Aegi also walls it hard like megacyber said
 
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Hate to be the debbie downer of the community but there are some new pokemon that are pretty awful presences in the metagame at the moment.

Power Construct Zygarde, recently quickbanned from SM OU, poses similar problems to doubles as it does singles. It has incredible bulk if it isn't killed before it gets into complete form, has multiple set-up options in Coil and Dragon Dance, only needs one move to hit every pokemon in the tier with Thousand Arrows and ultimately just becomes very difficult to take down. Coupled with redirection the options to take out Zygarde complete become incredibly limited and in my opinion should be brought up in discussion by the council.

Magearna: Less problematic imo but can quickly get out of control. Magearnas bulk, good defensive typing and its ability to capitalize off your opponent picking up KOs make this pokemon pretty dumb to play around. It consistently boosts up to at least +4 in almost every game it plays in. The ability to gain boosts while clicking protect or substitute is very strong and has sweeping potential on par with anything else in the tier.
 

GenOne

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Hate to be the debbie downer of the community but there are some new pokemon that are pretty awful presences in the metagame at the moment.

Power Construct Zygarde, recently quickbanned from SM OU, poses similar problems to doubles as it does singles. It has incredible bulk if it isn't killed before it gets into complete form, has multiple set-up options in Coil and Dragon Dance, only needs one move to hit every pokemon in the tier with Thousand Arrows and ultimately just becomes very difficult to take down. Coupled with redirection the options to take out Zygarde complete become incredibly limited and in my opinion should be brought up in discussion by the council.

Magearna: Less problematic imo but can quickly get out of control. Magearnas bulk, good defensive typing and its ability to capitalize off your opponent picking up KOs make this pokemon pretty dumb to play around. It consistently boosts up to at least +4 in almost every game it plays in. The ability to gain boosts while clicking protect or substitute is very strong and has sweeping potential on par with anything else in the tier.
I haven't played around with Zygarde yet but I've built a few teams around Sub-Magearna (I think I might have been one of the first people to think of this set??) and found it to be a pretty significant wincon. I see Magearna being influential to this meta the same way AzuRachi was to ORAS.

From the Magearna team builder's perspective, it does have a few flaws. It gets good coverage moves that let it check threats like Volcanion (Thunderbolt), Heatran (Aura Sphere) and Aegislash (Shadow Ball), but you basically have to pick two moves and roll with them. It can't check everything at once and still capitalize on its STAB. Of course, your opponent has no way of knowing what you're running, so Magearna definitely has a threatening presence in the early stages of a match. Magearna is in a middling speed tier where fast mons and dedicated tr attackers can both threaten it before it sets up, and it's offensive presence before boosting is pretty "meh." You also have to think pretty hard about what mons are going to support Mage on your team -- it doesn't just splash onto anything.

But overall, Magearna forces you to build checks for it -- you basically need multiple Ground or Fire attackers to beat it. I can see it being suspected, but we'll see what teams people come up with for it.

Fwiw, I've found scarf Kyube to be a good partner for Magearna (and a good mon in SuMo in general). Kyube's speed and movepool almost perfectly pick off the mons that threaten Magearna -- Ice Beam for Landorus, Salamence and Zygarde; Earth Power for Heatran; Bolt Strike for Volcanion; Rock Slide for Charizard.

The meta hasn't evolved enough for me to make a "good" team, but here's a Magearna team I've been tinkering with. The EVs are pretty arbitrary and don't hit specific benchmarks, for the most part. The speed EVs on Mage let it speed creep slow Volcanion sets, but idk if its nessesary.

Magearna @ Leftovers
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 200 SpA / 56 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Substitute
- Protect

Kyurem-Black @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 216 Atk / 68 SpA / 224 Spe
Naive Nature
- Ice Beam
- Fusion Bolt
- Earth Power
- Rock Slide

Volcanion @ Firium Z
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Steam Eruption
- Earth Power
- Protect

Tapu Lele @ Life Orb
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 200 HP / 252 SpA / 56 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Moonblast
- Taunt
- Protect

Landorus @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Earth Power
- Rock Slide
- Sludge Bomb
- Protect

Gengar-Mega @ Gengarite
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Bomb
- Shadow Ball
- Taunt
- Protect


E: The original paste erroneously had "Sand Force" as Lando-I's ability. Awk. :)
 
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Hate to be the debbie downer of the community but there are some new pokemon that are pretty awful presences in the metagame at the moment.

Power Construct Zygarde, recently quickbanned from SM OU, poses similar problems to doubles as it does singles. It has incredible bulk if it isn't killed before it gets into complete form, has multiple set-up options in Coil and Dragon Dance, only needs one move to hit every pokemon in the tier with Thousand Arrows and ultimately just becomes very difficult to take down. Coupled with redirection the options to take out Zygarde complete become incredibly limited and in my opinion should be brought up in discussion by the council.

Magearna: Less problematic imo but can quickly get out of control. Magearnas bulk, good defensive typing and its ability to capitalize off your opponent picking up KOs make this pokemon pretty dumb to play around. It consistently boosts up to at least +4 in almost every game it plays in. The ability to gain boosts while clicking protect or substitute is very strong and has sweeping potential on par with anything else in the tier.
i wanted to mention magearna as being a possible suspect test. i haven't had any trouble or experience besides maybe one game off the top of my head with zygarde-complete but a lot with magearna. while it has counters, it seems impossible to win against it WITHOUT running a counter as mentioned above, but its counters (zard y and heatran come to mind) are very effective.

here's a set i've been using as a trapping set to KO magearna's with heatran



Heatran @ Air Balloon
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Earth Power
- Taunt
- Protect

this set OHKO's most magearna's if they aren't running any spdef (which i personally run with good success) investment. if it lives, you can trap it to stop it from gaining any more momentum and can let your partner mon (whatever it is) deal the remaining damage. regardless, i think that magearna should definitely be suspected at the very least, i think still needs time to adjust to a lot of the changes in s/m though.
 
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Matame

New Rules
i wanted to mention magearna as being a possible suspect test. i haven't had any trouble or experience besides maybe one game off the top of my head with zygarde-complete but a lot with magearna. while it has counters, it seems impossible to win against it WITHOUT running a counter as mentioned above, but its counters (zard y and heatran come to mind) are very effective.

here's a set i've been using as a trapping set to KO magearna's with heatran



Heatran @ Air Balloon
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Earth Power
- Taunt
- Protect

this set OHKO's most magearna's if they aren't running any spdef (which i personally run with good success) investment. if it lives, you can trap it to stop it from gaining any more momentum and can let your partner mon (whatever it is) deal the remaining damage. regardless, i think that magearna should definitely be suspected at the very least, i think still needs time to adjust to a lot of the changes in s/m though.
I don't see the point of taunt on a set thats 'meant to counter magearna' when using sub covers much more of its options, including trick room and sub which seem to be what taunt is for? Also lol i highly doubt people will stay in on you so much so that you can trap them with magma storm, when yet again sub probably deals with it much better. Even if you really want a surefire way to ko it why not just use fire blast?
 
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Matame

New Rules
ok time to be productive!!!

Guzzlord @ Assault Vest
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 228 Def / 100 SpA / 180 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Sludge Bomb
- Dark Pulse
- Flamethrower
This pokemon is practically a shitty hydrei for trick room. Draco for immediate power, dark pulse for strong dark stab, flamethrower to hit opposing steels such as magearna and celesteela and sludge bomb to hit faries like the tapus. Assault vest makes it a really good sun check and lets it tank dazzling gleams from tapu koko.



Mimikyu @ Mental Herb
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Play Rough
- Shadow Sneak
- Swords Dance
Mimikyu with metnal herb may be the most reliable trick room setter. Although it's bulk leaves much to be desired, it's ability, disguise, practically lets it take zero from it's first hit. It can then stop itself from being a momentum suck with swords dance, offering strong fairy stab and priority in shadow sneak.
 
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