Ultra Sun & Moon OU Analysis Discussion

Whats the reasoning for blocking an aloha-raichu analyisis atm?
It requires too much setting up with Pelipper and Tapu Koko, to the point where you would do just as well with only Tapu Koko as your Thunder Spammer. Without Electric Terrain or Rain, Alolan Raichu simply isn't good.
 
I'd like to make an argument for Scarf Gengar to be a set. With its 110 base speed and a Choice Scarf equipped it can easily revenge kill +1 boosted mons such as Mega Charizard X, Salamence, etc. It also outspeeds a majority of common scarfers seen such as Tapu Lele, outspeeds Tapu Koko, and can OHKO with STAB Sludge Wave. Gengar also has access to Trick to mess with stall teams, and is immune to Toxic. Its power may be a little lacking but it has enough to revenge kill many threats with even just a little bit of prior damage, and its typing and coverage is useful, especially with the strong Fairy-types littering the tier. Most people don't expect a Choice Scarf so they think they can kill it with something faster, but are then outsped and KOed, so the surprise factor is nice as well.
 
I feel like Scarf Nihilego gives Scarf Gengar a ton of competition, as they're somewhat similar, but Nihilego has qualities more befitting of a Scarf user. They aren't completely comparable but I feel like Nihilego's much more orthodox thanks to Beast Boost and the fact that nothing is immune to Power Gem. On the flipside Gengar has much better coverage moves and STAB combination (while mono-Rock coverage is sometimes superior to Mono-Ghost or Mono-Poison coverage, Ghost/Poison coverage is generally superior to Rock/Poison coverage), but that's usually more relevant for a non-scarfed attacker. Gengar is better suited for its ability to have few safe switch-ins thanks to its STAB coverage+Focus Blast and whatever utility move it chooses to run.

I'd like to make an argument for Scarf Gengar to be a set. With its 110 base speed and a Choice Scarf equipped it can easily revenge kill +1 boosted mons such as Mega Charizard X, Salamence, etc. It also outspeeds a majority of common scarfers seen such as Tapu Lele, outspeeds Tapu Koko, and can OHKO with STAB Sludge Wave.
Everything here also applies to Scarf Nihilego, and it is actually even better at killing Charizard and Salamence thanks to Power Gem. I'd say that Gengar is an ideal choice if you want a scarfer that fills a similar role as Nihilego while outspeeding some obscure threats at +1 or with a Scarf, the most relevant of which is probably Kartana (no one uses scarf keldeo), and having a generally better matchup against stall teams thanks to Trick, while Nihilego has the potential to sweep lategame against more offensive teams thanks to Beast Boost. I haven't used Scarf Gengar so I'm probably underestimating it (Ghost coverage is really good, and i guess Focus Blast lets it revenge Mega Gyarados/Steel types effectively) but I can't help but feel Nihilego outclasses it in a lot of ways.
 

Colonel M

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I've been drinking a bit, but I think I can provide a proper rebuttal to Scarf Gengar. While it would not be my personal set of choice, the issue with comparison of Nihilego is that Scarf Gengar has a much more abusable STAB to work with (Shadow Ball). I admit that Normal-types still fuck this concept over, but outside of instances such as Porygon-Z and Chansey there aren't many super common Normal-types. Yeah Bewear exists, but it is more of a niche mon in a way so it isn't used as much in teams atm. Pursuit users being rather rare help this too since the only Pokemon that has been running Pursuit constantly is Tyranitar. Scizor needs a dedicated set for it that fights with its Swords Dance sets, Bisharp has often opted against running Pursuit at this time, Weavile has often considered superior options such as Poison Jab or Swords Dance.

To be fair Scarf Shadow Ball can lead to some crummy situations such as free Mega Gyarados switch-ins and the like, but such is the life of many Choice Scarf Pokemon.

I'm probably missing something really big so don't be afraid to counter it.
 
Pursuit users being rather rare help this too since the only Pokemon that has been running Pursuit constantly is Tyranitar. Scizor needs a dedicated set for it that fights with its Swords Dance sets, Bisharp has often opted against running Pursuit at this time, Weavile has often considered superior options such as Poison Jab or Swords Dance.
You're forgetting about Alolan Muk which is a dedicated Pursuit user that will probably continue to increase in popularity. It also is really effective against Gengar, whether it is Scarf or not.
 
Also keep in mind that Tapu Fini's teammates can't status opposing Pokemon affected by Misty Terrain.
This line from the Tapu Fini page should probably read:

Also keep in mind that Tapu Fini's teammates can't status opposing grounded Pokemon affected by Misty Terrain.
You can status flying types like Landorus-T or Hydreigon.
 
Only grounded Pokemon are affected by Misty Terrain, so adding "grounded" there would be redundant. It should be clear the way it is.
 
Call me stupid but I think that Gale Wings nerf isn't such a big nerv as most people think. You can outspeed most pokemon without Prio Gale Wings. It now has problems with scarfers and maybe Extreme speed. I believe that the loose Prio Roost is what hurts it a lot, but it is still very flexable to use. Sorry if I wasted your time but I think that people overdramatize the nerf a bit like they do with Gengar.
 

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Call me stupid but I think that Gale Wings nerf isn't such a big nerv as most people think. You can outspeed most pokemon without Prio Gale Wings. It now has problems with scarfers and maybe Extreme speed. I believe that the loose Prio Roost is what hurts it a lot, but it is still very flexable to use. Sorry if I wasted your time but I think that people overdramatize the nerf a bit like they do with Gengar.
The problem is that stealth rocks will basically make it impossible to be at full health, and outside of priority brave bird and roost Talonflame is pretty "meh".
 
Call me stupid but I think that Gale Wings nerf isn't such a big nerv as most people think. You can outspeed most pokemon without Prio Gale Wings. It now has problems with scarfers and maybe Extreme speed. I believe that the loose Prio Roost is what hurts it a lot, but it is still very flexable to use. Sorry if I wasted your time but I think that people overdramatize the nerf a bit like they do with Gengar.

Talonflame can't even switch in to any attack, otherwise it would lose Gale Wings.


Actually, the very existence of Stealth Rock kills Talonflame's credibility because it makes Talonflame completely useless.
 
Only grounded Pokemon are affected by Misty Terrain, so adding "grounded" there would be redundant. It should be clear the way it is.
I agree its redundant. But every sentence is about compromise.

Adding a single word adds a little bit of redundancy, but makes the sentence more accessible to beginner players. Its not a big deal either way of course, but in this case, I favor the (very slight) amount of redundancy added for the benefit of helping a weaker player out.
 
Talonflame can't even switch in to any attack, otherwise it would lose Gale Wings.


Actually, the very existence of Stealth Rock kills Talonflame's credibility because it makes Talonflame completely useless.
The question is: Would you run Gale Wings after the nerf or Flame Body? Are Natural Gift + Acrobatics Sets trash too?
 
The question is: Would you run Gale Wings after the nerf or Flame Body? Are Natural Gift + Acrobatics Sets trash too?
The Gale Wings nerf has made Talonflame comparable to "Flame Orb Guts Swellow Facade" levels of usability. Lets leave it to the NU specialists to figure out whether Swellow or Talonflame is more usable... I mean seriously, at least Guts Swellow + STAB Quick Attack is a real form of reliable priority.

In OU, you're going to simply get more benefit from Hawluncha's Substitute / Sitrus Berry / HJK / Acrobatics set than anything from Talonflame in this gen.
 
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Call me stupid but I think that Gale Wings nerf isn't such a big nerv as most people think. You can outspeed most pokemon without Prio Gale Wings. It now has problems with scarfers and maybe Extreme speed. I believe that the loose Prio Roost is what hurts it a lot, but it is still very flexable to use. Sorry if I wasted your time but I think that people overdramatize the nerf a bit like they do with Gengar.
I've been trying Talonflame in OU past few days and I must say it's a big nerf. So much of a nerf I rather have Flame body over Gale Wings. Talon needs the boost of SD to be somewhat of a threat. You would need to be able to get it in AND get a boost without taking damage, If that doesn't happen, Gale Wings is useless. Brave Bird and Flare Blitz being it's main attacks hurt it even more because they have recoil.
 
Hey Smogon Community,


I was wondering if I could write some analyses for the SM OU/BL tier (and possibly edit some current entries for a few OU/BL Pokemon I noticed had some missing information; for example for Zygarde and Heatran's entries just from thinking off the top of my head).

I think Zygarde's analysis deserves to have a thousand arrows DD LO set included (this set acts both as a late game DD sweeper and as an extremespeed revenge killer, with the added perk of not being choice locked into extremespeed/thousand arrows and forced to switch/be sacrificed). Coil set with sub deserves some mention too.

...and Heatran's analysis is missing a few useful sets, such as an offensive Life Orb/Air Balloon/Leftovers set, and the rare but useful Rest-Talking set. I could fix these by adding these sets to the pages.

I think Tyranitar's entry had a few missing sets as well, such as a bulky utility support set with Stealth Rock and Pursuit.

Salamence's analysis seemed to be missing a couple sets as well, such as Choice Scarf Moxie.

I'm quite keen to write analyses for both OU/BL Pokemon introduced in SM (such as Alola-Marowak possibly) , as well as Pokemon in the SM OU/BL tier from past generations (like Mew, Skarmory, Azumarill, Garchomp, Jirachi, Gliscor, Breloom and Scizor/Mega-Scizor).

I think I could write good analyses for the community because I've been often battling competitively from the RBY days up to SM today, I had laddered quite a lot during the ORAS period (so I know a lot about Pokemon that worked well during this time), and I'm laddering on Showdown in the SM OU tier quite regularly, so I have a good knowledge of the current SM OU metagame as well.

I've also read 'Sun & Moon OU Reservation Index' thread so I know how to conform to Smogon's analysis standards.

Lastly (and I guess it deserves some mention), english is my first language.

Let me know, cheers!

7he J
 
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I'm sure the QC staff appreciate your enthusiasm to write analyses but there's a few things I want to point out

  • The on-site Zygarde analysis only has a set for Zygarde 10% form, and there is an analysis for Zygarde 50% being worked on right now with a Coil and DD set that are currently being written up.
  • Offensive Heatran with Leftovers/Air Balloon is a small change of the current moveset and is actually mentioned in the set details of the analysis if you read it closely, and Rest+Sleep Talk compounds Heatran's pre existing 4MSS, not to mention that it makes it significantly more passive when there are frankly just better choices to place onto stall teams that check the same threats it does.
  • Bulky Tyranitar is really bad because you are frankly wasting its potential as either an insane offensive wallbreaker or a pretty consistent Pursuit Trapper, and there's several different kinds of pokemon that can perform the role of bulky Stealth Rock user better than Tyranitar, not to mention that mold breaker excadrill is so good rn that it doesn't need sand support+sand rush to function, and the loss of Talonflame of the tier means it isn't as valuable defensively.
  • Lastly, Moxiemence is pretty bad as a steamroll killing Pokemon or whatever you want to call it as several UBs have Choice Scarf sets that can acomplish the same thing that moxiemence does but better, and Shift Gear Magearna can do a great job at it as well.
Currently, there aren't any Pokemon up for reservation, so you have to wait until there are. If you leave the reservation index on watch you can see when new analyses are available to write and write ups of the current bullet pointed analyses should be available to write in a couple months for you as well. I hope I helped!

It is a great help Littlelucario, so thank you :).

Ok great, Zygarde seems to be sorted then :).

I wasn't aware that Offensive Heatran was mentioned in the analysis already! I must have skipped it when I read it!
I absolutely more or less agree with you that Rest-Talk Heatran is mostly not useful in the current metagame and there are better options available, especially since Burn got nerfed so Lava Plume is much less effective than it used to be, but I was thinking maybe it could serve a small niche for defensively-oriented teams.
HOWEVER, I do think Offensive Heatran's move options should be explained more concisely, since it is quite a useful Pokemon right now and has a lot of options right now including Fire Blast, HP Ice, Earth Power, Flash Cannon, Overheat, the rare Dragon Pulse, Stealth Rock, Substitute, Toxic and Will-O-Wisp. I will also specifically mention that with Will-O-Wisp equipped, Timid Heatran is both an excellent and one of the only reliable answers to SD LO Bisharp, as the Adamant variant is outsped and Heatran can deal with every move bar Knock Off, then proceed to WoW it before it had a chance to KO it with Sucker Punch, and can then get rid of it the turn after with Fire Blast, Overheat or Earth Power. If Bisharp is Jolly, while it may outsped Timid Heatran it simply doesn't have the power to OHKO Heatran after SR damage and Knock Off with the correct defensive EV spread set for Heatran.

Regarding your comments about Bulky Tyranitar, you really shouldn't underestimate it in the current metagame, and I have a few reasons to explain why. Just hear me out!:
1) it's an excellent partner for Pheromosa, being able to deal with one of its most dangerous counters, Alola Marowak by Pursuit Trapping it regardless of whether Alola Marowak stays in play or not. I also note it has the bulk to survive Thick Club Bonemerang assuming Alola's standard EV spread. I also note that if you add a Lum Berry to said Ttar, it can cure a potential WoW prediction from Alola-Marowak, And bluff a choice band/scarf set too.
2) like it has since gen IV, it can still guarantee pursuit traps on many threats, such as Latios, Starmie, and Latias, to name a few.
3) with Stealth Rock, it's also very useful for a team to use since the wallbreaker is usually straight up shut down by Hippowdon Landorus-T and defensive Gliscor with Roost that can simply recover damage from Banded Stone Edge/Crunch, Roost to resist Stone Edge, set up Rocks, and wear it down with Toxic or Earthquake. With Stealth Rock equipped on a support set, this problem of wasting a turn is circumvented, since you set up rocks for the team.
4) Finally, it still packs quite a punch with its physical options for the last 2 move slots, ranging from Stone Edge, Superpower, Crunch and EQ.

Regarding your comments about Scarf Moxiemence, I agree with you when you say that it's outright useless especially with even more reliable counters to it, such as Tapu Bulu and Tapu Fini, to name a few. At least the Flynnium Z set with Fly can break past these threats with its Z-move if they have taken some prior damage (and Tapu Bulu is OHKOed by Skystrike anyway). So I agree with you that I was wrong about Scarf Moxiemence, and thanks for pointing it out.

Lastly, are you absolutely certain that I can't write even just One SM OU analysis? It would really mean a lot to me if it's possible and you could arrange this.

Be well, and happy battling!

7h3 J
 
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These analyses are meant to be a preview of the developing S/M OU metagame. It's really only been a month since the metagame has begun to develop, which explains the focus on the most important and relevant Pokemon to the current OU tier. Eventually, once the tier has settled and more suspect tests have been completed, the analyses will be rewritten (in a more complete form, not just bullet points) to reflect the changes in the metagame. Additionally, more Pokemon may become available to write an analysis for should they be deemed viable in the OU tier based on a specific niche or having low usage but possessing potentially OU-viable sets. As LittleLucario has already pointed out, if you wish to write an analysis now, either keep checking this thread to see if someone drops their current reservation, or wait a few months until the full write-ups are implemented.

Best of luck with your future C&C endeavors! It's always nice to see new enthusiastic contributors.
 
Max HP is rlly bad. While the KOs thing seems insiginificant on paper, it is really noticable when your actually using it because your Moonblasts do fuck all to the neutral targets you use them on, which is really, really horrible in general. Also, there are a few semi-notable things that it misses out on (not that "notable KOs" is a particularly good metric when looking at STAB moves--hint, Alolan Ninetales is clicking them a lot more than you think) include:
  • Mega Gyarados Moonblast 2HKO
  • Regular Gyarados Freeze Dry OHKO
  • SpD Mantine Freeze Dry 2HKO
  • Offensive Garchomp Freeze Dry OHKO
  • Defensive Lando-T Freeze Dry OHKO
  • PhysDef Toxapex Freeze Dry 2HKO after SR
  • Offensive Tyranitar 2HKO after SR
  • Mixed Def Hippo Freeze Dry 2HKO chance after SR
  • PhysDef Hippo Freeze Dry 2HKO
  • PhysDef Suicune Freeze Dry 2HKO chance after SR
  • Bisharp Moonblast 2HKO before SR
  • Semi-bulky Bulu variants 2HKO before SR
  • Max HP Bulu 2HKO both before and after SR
Like, there is probably more in addition to this too, but the point is that even if I ignore the fact that notable KOs is a bad argument for something like Ninetales there is quite a lot it is missing out on by not running max SpA.

Also you're plenty bulky with Aurora Veil up even without the HP investment, and you are bulky/fast enough without that setting it up shouldn't be an issue.
This reply is mad late but I haven't been very active the past month. I mentioned 'notable kos' simply because the investment was in an attacking stat, thus this aspect of the conversation about ninetails concerns damage output and, consequently, KOs. It's exactly your thought here:
"... the fact that notable KOs is a bad argument for something like Ninetales... "
that has me questioning Max SpAtk in the first place, because it's almost never trying to get a KO.

So I switched to SpAtk because that list of 2h/ohko's initially convinced me, used it anytime I've played ninetails in the last month, and from my experience these calcs almost never came into play. Things like gyra and the fat grounds never stay in, and mantine switches out too when it sees how much damage it's taking from freeze dry.
Mantine and bulu are attractive targets max SpAtk can get, granted.

I've found that with max HP I can typically come in one more time per game to setup veil, cause the things ninetails switches in on frequently are moderately weak special attackers. Showing this through replays will be tough because it would require quite a few to make a reasonable sample size, but idk I just wanted to say that after using both, I still like max HP more because it's easier to set up more times on the weak attackers that you usually set up on. Maybe your experience is totally different.
 
Hey Smogon Community,


I was wondering if I could write some analyses for the SM OU/BL tier (and possibly edit some current entries for a few OU/BL Pokemon I noticed had some missing information; for example for Zygarde and Heatran's entries just from thinking off the top of my head).
Just note: a lot of UU and even RU pokemon have an analysis. For example, a pokemon like Hawluncha will never reach OU / BL status, but it has a unique niche in Swords Dance / Substitute / Sitrus Berry / Unburden / Acrobatics that can be tricky for some teams to deal with. Perhaps a better example would be Choice Scarf Ditto, who I'm sure will see OU usage even if it's a Pokemon that will drop to NU or even PU usage.

Whether or not a specific Pokemon gets an analysis is up to the analysis team of course. These OU analysis are about how to use a specific Pokemon in the OU metagame.

As such, it doesn't really make sense to say you're writing "OU / BL Pokemon", because BL isn't a metagame (BL is a ban-list for UU). And there will be NeverUsed / RarelyUsed pokemon that get OU analysis pages.

Just want to make sure you're approaching this with the right mindset. Otherwise, good luck grabbing an analysis!
 
Hi I would just like to say, running scald on tapu fini (as the suggested sets say) is pointless in comparison to hydro pump - tapu finis terrain negates any statuses.
 
Hi I would just like to say, running scald on tapu fini (as the suggested sets say) is pointless in comparison to hydro pump - tapu finis terrain negates any statuses.
It has been said multiple times now, but Misty Surge doesn't affect non-grounded mons (Flying-types, Levitators, those with Air Balloon iirc, etc.) and is crucial against a Tapu Bulu switch-in as the latter will change the Misty Terrain into a Grassy Terrain, leaving it vulnerable to Scald burns.

I won't go deeper into the details, but it has been shown and proven at multiple occasions that Scald, despite its ability, is still Tapu Fini's Water-type STAB move of choice (in most, if not all, cases anyway).
 
It has been said multiple times now, but Misty Surge doesn't affect non-grounded mons (Flying-types, Levitators, those with Air Balloon iirc, etc.) and is crucial against a Tapu Bulu switch-in as the latter will change the Misty Terrain into a Grassy Terrain, leaving it vulnerable to Scald burns.

I won't go deeper into the details, but it has been shown and proven at multiple occasions that Scald, despite its ability, is still Tapu Fini's Water-type STAB move of choice (in most, if not all, cases anyway).
Thanks for replying!
Are unreleased megas getting an analysis? If so, I think mega swampert definitely deserves one with rain getting a much more reliable setter in pelipper and the mega evolution speed buff. Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask.
If so I also have an interesting mega beedrill - could be incredibly viable, this in my opinion is due to the buffing of fell stinger, and the fact that you no longer "have" to run protect (mega buff) could mean we might be seeing mega beedrill revenge killing with a 50 BP adaptability boosted fell stinger, boosting itself to +3 atk. Might be missing something but this could be a very lethal sweeping strategy..
 

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