Well Sakurai made sure Samus' jab was bad to fit her character design so they're not going to just all of a sudden change Bayonetta's.
Bayonetta was a mistake, by design she is low risk, insanely high reward.
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Super Smash Bros 4 (Spoilers ITT)
- Thread starter LonelyNess
- Start date
Bayonetta was a mistake, by design she is low risk, insanely high reward.
you do realize that's a balance issue, not a design issue, right? nerfs that weaken her comboes such that they aren't guaranteed kos and are generally less safe to attempt could easily fix her balance-wise without drastically changing how she plays at all
I mean if Samus is supposed to be designed similar to her game why are her missiles so garbage lol? And why is screw attack like 10x more shitty than it is in her games?
Characters aren't supposed to play exactly how they should in their games, and that's proof in many characters movesets.
Characters aren't supposed to play exactly how they should in their games, and that's proof in many characters movesets.
I don't see how they can do that at all when she has 15 ways to 0 to death every character in the game and if you nerf anything her whole combo all flashy and over the top basically gets screwed. She just has too much stuff and too many ways to 0 to death to make it even matter anyways you'd have to nerf everything on her so they can't combo much. I guess I'm not against that but it'd completely screw with her theme and she'd officially suck so I just don't expect Sakurai doing anything noticeable.
by this line of reasoning can we make flare blitz have 33% recoil instead of 53% recoil, and make it not still have recoil even if you miss?
pls
also i honestly trust the balance team to do a good job with nerfing bayonetta, when 1.1.5 dropped we all thought mk's uair combos were completely dead but it turns out that they are now just really high damaging strings that can usually be escaped by most characters and usually don't kill either, as opposed to before where it was just "lololol i dash attacked you at 20 you're dead now", which is way better from a game balance standpoint. i do think that it would be trickier to do a similar thing with bayo but it should still be possible.
pls
also i honestly trust the balance team to do a good job with nerfing bayonetta, when 1.1.5 dropped we all thought mk's uair combos were completely dead but it turns out that they are now just really high damaging strings that can usually be escaped by most characters and usually don't kill either, as opposed to before where it was just "lololol i dash attacked you at 20 you're dead now", which is way better from a game balance standpoint. i do think that it would be trickier to do a similar thing with bayo but it should still be possible.
Bayonetta needs damage reduction and nerfs to Witch Twist and Witch Time. By reducing the damage on her aerials, her ability to rack up damage and her kill potential go down. Uair could also use an angle adjustment to make it easier to DI. I have been trying to end combos with Bair in situations where Uair would've easily killed and noticed Bair was easier to DI despite being stronger. Witch Twist needs a distance reduction to prevent cheese kills from the upper blast zone, same thing goes to dive kick's knockback and hitstun. The Bullet Arts variant can be left untouched since it's useless in combos and lets her recover. Witch Time needs to be adjusted to be consistent with other counters. As Bayonetta's signiture move, it shouldn't be completely gutted. As overpowered as it is right now, it's very punishable and even the best players don't throw this out every 5 seconds in the neutral. Adjusting it to start on frame 6 or 7 and adjusting the time it traps you for will make this move more balanced. Basically Bayonetta should get nerfed to a point where she can continue to execute combo strings and rack up damage, but in a way that requires Bayonetta to punish the opponent and combo them 4 or 5 times before they are in kill percent. A match with Bayonetta should be as demanding to the Bayonetta player as to the opponent.
If you're struggling against this matchup, Bayonetta struggles with zoning characters such as Duck Hunt and ROB. Limit her approach options and bait out something so you can punish on whiff. If you're struggling to escape some of her combos, try adjusting your controls so you don't have to rely on your triggers for airdodging. If you don't want to change your controls then try replacing Up Taunt with Shield. If Bayonneta begins a combo, HOLD shield so you can buffer it as soon as you touch the ground, don't mash it until you are high enough so that you don't land with lag.
That being said, Bayonetta hasn't provided sufficient tournament results to be deemed the best character in the game, so Rosalina continues to be at the top with Bayonetta as second best, both of them being the only top tiers. The next best characters include Meta Kight, Sonic, Fox, and the rest of the high tiers.
Something to notice is that all these characters at the top of the tier lists share something in common: stupidly good frame data. Except Bayonetta. Something to take note of.
If you're struggling against this matchup, Bayonetta struggles with zoning characters such as Duck Hunt and ROB. Limit her approach options and bait out something so you can punish on whiff. If you're struggling to escape some of her combos, try adjusting your controls so you don't have to rely on your triggers for airdodging. If you don't want to change your controls then try replacing Up Taunt with Shield. If Bayonneta begins a combo, HOLD shield so you can buffer it as soon as you touch the ground, don't mash it until you are high enough so that you don't land with lag.
That being said, Bayonetta hasn't provided sufficient tournament results to be deemed the best character in the game, so Rosalina continues to be at the top with Bayonetta as second best, both of them being the only top tiers. The next best characters include Meta Kight, Sonic, Fox, and the rest of the high tiers.
Something to notice is that all these characters at the top of the tier lists share something in common: stupidly good frame data. Except Bayonetta. Something to take note of.
Bayonetta's not the best character in the game, she's a character w/ a great combo game that gets a LOT of leverage off of being unprepared for, kind of like Small Mii Brawler (who by the way, beats Bayonetta, #freemii). If you're mixing up your DI a lot of the "guaranteed kills" actually end up becoming series of 50/50's. Relevant 0 to deaths are not a think that is common at high level play, and even when they happen they aren't true.
IMO people like to hate on Bayo because she's a good char w/ something they can isolate her for (Luigi is easy and broken, she's 5.99, he's using customs, etc).
IMO people like to hate on Bayo because she's a good char w/ something they can isolate her for (Luigi is easy and broken, she's 5.99, he's using customs, etc).
Bro do you know any character in Smash 4 who can 0 to death off of any confirm (with so many ways it's basically purely down to reads not to get one shotted before getting damage) and whole gameplan makes it so if you go aggressive and she witch times you're basically screwed? That's basically what happens if you mess up in the good tournament matches and most of the professionals seem to agree that she's pretty ridiculous. I certainly can't and I can't think of a better character than Bayonetta. I really don't see how she AT LEAST isn't the best character, I figured that was undisputed.
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except even at high level play, dying at stupid percents does happen not infrequently. yes, it's not guaranteed at all, but the fact that top players still die to it at all is telling. really the biggest problem with bayo isn't the death combos themselves but how retardedly safe the setup moves are. a move that is frame 4, has a very good hitbox, and is almost completely unpunishable to the point where you can literally spam it in neutral (shoutouts tyroy, this is all he does) should not be a move that can kill you at literally any percent, lmao
really the fact that you can go from literally being at #10 on a relatively pretty small pr with the undisputed best character in the game at that point to outplacing players like void, almost beating mr r, and 3-0ing abadango is very telling that something is wrong. i know you'll give me the "haha learn the matchup xD" thing that every bayo defender uses but it's been 3 months already, you'd think if people could easily beat bayo by learning the matchup they'd be doing so by this point. bayonetta carries players, it's pretty obvious if you just look at the results.
also if you think that bayo isn't the best character in the game, you therefore think she's a decent amount worse than prepatch sheik which means you're saying that tyroy literally switched to a noticeably worse character and got like way better, which doesn't even begin to make sense
Man that's a LOT of character assassination.
A. he is the best Bayonetta in the US at minimum, will be the best in the world by Summer's end
B. she has no true 0 to deaths that are competitively relevant unless you put the controller down.
It's easier to call something broken than it is to practice against it.
No I don't, I also play/talk with Tyroy at literally every weekly at my university, and I will attest that
A. he is the best Bayonetta in the US at minimum, will be the best in the world by Summer's end
B. she has no true 0 to deaths that are competitively relevant unless you put the controller down.
It's easier to call something broken than it is to practice against it.
^circlejerk/bandwagon mentality like that is the reason why it takes so long to learn this matchup. There are so many resources that help you deal with Bayonetta. I've posted several times in this thread with tips on how to beat her, yet all I keep reading are the same shitty arguements I read a month ago. She doesn't even compare to abominations like Brawl MK or prepatch Shiek.
How do you even compare Sheik and Bayonetta? Sheik has an extremely high skill cap while Bayonetta requires very little skill to perform. Of course a random unskilled player will perform better with Bayonetta than with Sheik.
Go win a tournament with Bayonetta if you really think she's broken.
How do you even compare Sheik and Bayonetta? Sheik has an extremely high skill cap while Bayonetta requires very little skill to perform. Of course a random unskilled player will perform better with Bayonetta than with Sheik.
Go win a tournament with Bayonetta if you really think she's broken.
Just wondering - even if she doesn't 0 - death you, don't her combos still do a ton of percent? It just seems like in a lot of ways people are so focused on the 0-death (which are possible, even if improbable if Bayo's opponent is mixing up their DI) that they're not talking about how even if you do DI correctly, you're still eating a ton of % depending on what she hits you with. Combine this with how easy it if for Bayo to hit moves like Up B (it's an insane OoS option), her ability to tack on % with bullet art nair / neutral B, her decent (not great, but decent) kill moves in back air, forward throw, and up air (dtilt to up air is supposedly a kill confirm), Witch Time giving Bayo a guaranteed kill once their opponent is at ~100% and having a somewhat high potential to kill at lower percents (70%-90% you can still easily get a kill depending on stage position, the opponent's weight, the opponent's recovery, etc), and her smash attacks (they're laggy, but they have good reach / kill power) and I think you have an incredibly strong character on your hands, even if you don't think she's the best. To me, it seems like Bayonetta's ability to quickly rack up percent combined with her many kill options make her the best in the game, especially when Bayonetta seems to lack the flaws the majority of the other top tiers seem to have (Rosa's exploitable recover / Luma dying somewhat easily, Cloud's recovery, Sheik's lack of kill power, etc)
LMAO tyroy has an extremely good sheik guys and he was a top player in his irrelevant region before bayonetta
i'm so glad an amazing player such as: tyroy managed to finally find a character that fits him :D and can show his skill, which rivals those of the top players of the game.
y'all just haters.
i'm so glad an amazing player such as: tyroy managed to finally find a character that fits him :D and can show his skill, which rivals those of the top players of the game.
y'all just haters.
so the patch files are on the server and...
It looks like Bayo's aerial upwards side-b has increased KBG (0x28/0x1E/0x64 -> 0x32/0x26/0x70)
Also, Bayo's aerial downwards side-b has decreased damage (8 -> 6.5), decreased angle (0x50 -> 0x3C) and decreased hitbox size (6.5 -> 4.5).
Bayo's dtilt has reduced hitbox size (3.5 -> 2.8)
Bayo's fair hit one has reduced damage (3.8 -> 3).
Bayo's landing hitbox of downair has reduced KBG (0x8C -> 0x87).
Bayo's third hit of fair has less KGB (0x52 -> 0x44) and a 3 frame later autocancel window / 3 frames more endlag.
DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD
(no other characters were changed that we know of RIP)
edit: here's a better list of everything
It looks like Bayo's aerial upwards side-b has increased KBG (0x28/0x1E/0x64 -> 0x32/0x26/0x70)
Also, Bayo's aerial downwards side-b has decreased damage (8 -> 6.5), decreased angle (0x50 -> 0x3C) and decreased hitbox size (6.5 -> 4.5).
Bayo's dtilt has reduced hitbox size (3.5 -> 2.8)
Bayo's fair hit one has reduced damage (3.8 -> 3).
Bayo's landing hitbox of downair has reduced KBG (0x8C -> 0x87).
Bayo's third hit of fair has less KGB (0x52 -> 0x44) and a 3 frame later autocancel window / 3 frames more endlag.
DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD
(no other characters were changed that we know of RIP)
edit: here's a better list of everything