Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Suspect]

[Finchinator]

First of all, I don't think there is enough community support to ban it right now. Or anything else in particular. It did feel broken in DLC 1, but not really in this DLC. I am not currently pro-ban or anti-ban for this pokemon. But while I would like to see action on something, and Wellspring is as good to me as almost anything else at this point, I feel like it would do the least for the tier of all the potential borderline bans that have been brought up.

Other Ogerpon forms are likely underutilized. Cornerstone is actually very useful. If Waterpon was banned, we would likely see a lot more Cornerstone and maybe some other faster wall breaker sets when that didn't cut it. Even the base form is really decent anti-meta because of Defiant and the speed boost. Although, it doesn't fit on every team since it is a major Tera hog and lacks as good coverage. The point is there is enough to slot in where I don't think it would be too huge difference with Cornerstone and whatever else. Maybe a few of the matchups shift, and maybe rain becomes a bit more common without a common water immunity, but I truly don't think it would fix the tier or anything. I think Cornerstone and whatever else is enough to fill at least most of that void.

As far as my thoughts on it goes, Waterpon is fairly predictable. You know the Tera and it can be a Tera hog. You more or less know what the game plan is. It isn't something you typically have to scout all that much. Maybe you scout for coverage like Play Rough versus Encore or whatever. It's more a problem for slower teams or defensive cores. But many thing in this meta are.

Some people bring up Waterpon's speed tier as a problem for a wall breaker. But I don't know. 110 base speed in gen 9 is kinda like the old 100 base speed as a benchmark for exceeding it being fast or not. Waterpon is right on that line. Not over it. It cannot use Booster Energy and it really only can use an awkward Trailblaze as a speed boost. I don't even think Trailblaze is good on it since faster teams will have Booster Energy and/or priority to revenge kill it. Slower teams are mostly outsped anyways. In general, most of the teams that struggle to Waterpon are slower or at least have slower defensive cores and thus would also already struggle against other slower wallbreakers like Hoopa or Kyurem. So I don't feel like the speed tier is much of a problem.

I play primarily balance and offense, and I can say that Wellspring is almost never an issue for any of my teams. You can make this case with many borderline threats, though, because we live in a threat saturated meta state. So the styles of teams they use and how they are built will tend to determine which of the too many threats are an issue for them in particular and which ones aren't. But it would likely be different for the next person and so on.

This whole post doesn’t actually discuss any counterplay to Ogerpon-Wellspring, instead opting to incorrectly label it as a Tera hog and claim it’s predictable (what does this mean when 3 moves hit the entire tier short of Amoonguss?).

I don’t even think there’s an issue with saying you don’t find it to be a problem, but what you’re saying doesn’t move the needle at all. What do you use on your balance and offense teams that makes it “almost never an issue”?

 

[Heatranator]

Finch: "Amoonguss is pretty useless into bulkier teams"
My amoonguss:

Amoonguss @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 248 HP / 124 Atk / 8 Def / 128 SpA
Relaxed Nature
- Growth
- Giga Drain
- Tera Blast
- Stomping Tantrum
(This is more of a joke post, this set does lure gliscor with tera blast ice and cleanly ko's it, while +1 stomping tantrum does 35% minimum to bulky gambit and bulky ghold without a balloon.)
I do think looking at growth amoonguss could be interesting, it's a mon that hits decently hard and can take many hits. Ev's are to make sure sp.Attack is always higher to get a special attack tera blast, while maximising damage.

 

[Moyashi]

First of all, I don't think there is enough community support to ban it right now. Or anything else in particular. It did feel broken in DLC 1, but not really in this DLC. I am not currently pro-ban or anti-ban for this pokemon. But while I would like to see action on something, and Wellspring is as good to me as almost anything else at this point, I feel like it would do the least for the tier of all the potential borderline bans that have been brought up.

Other Ogerpon forms are likely underutilized. Cornerstone is actually very useful. If Waterpon was banned, we would likely see a lot more Cornerstone and maybe some other faster wall breaker sets when that didn't cut it. Even the base form is really decent anti-meta because of Defiant and the speed boost. Although, it doesn't fit on every team since it is a major Tera hog and lacks as good coverage. The point is there is enough to slot in where I don't think it would be too huge difference with Cornerstone and whatever else. Maybe a few of the matchups shift, and maybe rain becomes a bit more common without a common water immunity, but I truly don't think it would fix the tier or anything. I think Cornerstone and whatever else is enough to fill at least most of that void.

It's arguably stronger now than it was in DLC1, and has become more optimized on both moveset and team structures it gets put on.

Cornerstone is a cool mon but it would not be used to nearly the same degree as Wellspring in the event of a suspect and ban, as Cornerstone lacks the incredible defensive utility as Cornerstone lacks defensive utility and thus is much less splashable, as well as much more challenging to position in comparison. While Teal Mask is anti-meta, it's neither overwhelming nor THAT splashable. Better than Cornerstone but still nowhere close to Wellspring (plus it can't really threaten bulky teams like Wellspring can). A Wellspring ban isn't going to singlehandedly fix the tier, no one ever claimed it would, but it would be a great start in easing the burden on teambuilding and it's one of the major contributors to that problem.

As far as my thoughts on it goes, Waterpon is fairly predictable. You know the Tera and it can be a Tera hog. You more or less know what the game plan is. It isn't something you typically have to scout all that much. Maybe you scout for coverage like Play Rough versus Encore or whatever. It's more a problem for slower teams or defensive cores. But many thing in this meta are.

What...? Wellspring is the furthest thing from predictable, nor is it a tera hog. I'm not sure how at all you could come to either conclusion. It's not something you have to scout? All of Play Rough, Knock Off, Superpower/Low Kick and Encore are viable on SD sets alone which absolutely dictates what counterplay is effective vs it. Hell just Play Rough alone slices the list pretty notably, But Encore sets can brute force even would be checks by locking them into bad moves and setting up on them freely (literally possible to encore lock stuff like a substituting Kyurem and then boost and break through). Your last line is rather dismissive for some reason and comes off as rather hand wavey of the issue.

Slower teams are mostly outsped anyways. In general, most of the teams that struggle to Waterpon are slower or at least have slower defensive cores and thus would also already struggle against other slower wallbreakers like Hoopa or Kyurem. So I don't feel like the speed tier is much of a problem.

And again, this is rather dismissive. Kyurem is still highly contentious so mentioning it doesn't really make Wellspring NOT potentially broken. It's just admitting it's another polarizing threat for bulkier teams.

I play primarily balance and offense, and I can say that Wellspring is almost never an issue for any of my teams. You can make this case with many borderline threats, though, because we live in a threat saturated meta state. So the styles of teams they use and how they are built will tend to determine which of the too many threats are an issue for them in particular and which ones aren't. But it would likely be different for the next person and so on.

I'd love to know what team comps you're running that make it "almost never an issue".

 

[Heatranator]

A Wellspring ban isn't going to singlehandedly fix the tier, no one ever claimed it would, but it would be a great start in easing the burden on teambuilding and it's one of the major contributors to that problem.

He literally said, that if it was going to go for a suspect, they would ban it. I'm in a similar position, I don't think waterpon is the most egregious thing in the tier, as it has noticeable weaknesses that do hold it back, but if it came down to a suspect, I would ban it because something needs to go.
Also, while the tera hog thing is not true, waterpon is kinda predictable. Sure it may have play rough, fighting coverage, knock off or encore, but you can scout for the coverage move and act accordingly. It encores a mon you think can take it on? Dragon types can now switch in much easier. It basically has to have play rough 90% of the time to not get walled by dragon types (even dragapult can take a +2 ivy cudgel, despite it also losing to knock off variants). That 10% of the time can be an issue, but smart play can help you a lot.
Finally, cornerstone does have a lot of defensive utility. It has a normal resistance, which is great for ursaluna which has risen in popularity, while sturdy on its own is amazing. This means it can revenge kill almost anything as long as hazards are off the field, which is difficult to do but acheivable. It can even use horn leech to get itself back into sturdy range.

 

[waffle04]

Wellspring reminds me a lot of gen 7 kartana. Both rely heavily on chipping their checks slowly throughout the game to get themselves in a position to clean. Both have a few expected moves and a few slots that let them tech to do better vs certain match-ups. Both also slot into a good speed tier that makes fatter balance scared while having offensive counterplay thanks to the speed being just good not great. It can also just blast past checks with tera similar to z-fight/normal sd kart.

However, it has a few key downsides in its role as a cleaner/breaker. The biggest is what everyone has already mentioned, it has a hard time coming in. It's rocks neutral and spikes are also really easy to slot on this gen so taking 12-24% on the switch constantly heavily limits its opportunities to come in. It turns something like tusk's Headlong Rush from a 3hko, which you can easily horn leech back and keep in range, to a roll to 2hko with rocks and guaranteed 2hko when rocks and spikes are up. This is arguably the most common resisted move in the tier and it can't even even switch in safely while hazards are up.

Speaking of resists, it only has 3. Ground, which has the aforementioned tusk, lando which does over half with u-turn + rocks, gliscor which can tox to exasperate its hp issues, and ting-lu which can ruination or just set up rocks and spikes to limit its switch-ins. Steel is its next resist which consists of make it rain and absolutely nothing else. It's last resist is its immunity to water, which is nice as a flex option vs certain threats but it really only safely switches into the passive ones (Mola & dozo) since the others heavily punish it if you predict wrong.

Once it gets in, there's a few common sets. SD/cudgel/grass/coverage or encore, 3A+encore or U-turn/cudgel/leech/coverage or encore. SD cudgels through fat with ease but is prone to letting rilla, pult or any fast strong revenge killer in if you go for SD, any dragon if you're not PR after an SD, and Rilla, corv or glowking can come in if PR is in the cards. Obviously woger can muscle past some of these post SD but it'll come out heavily chipped so it's fairly easy to either revenge kill or force out. 3A can't muscle past these checks and relies on exploiting fat checks like corv to force damage all over but is far easier to stop with the offensive checks, and the u-turn set suffers from hazards + helmet being everywhere.

Obviously, it's offensively very scary when all of the aforementioned mons are just checks sans Rillaboom, hydrapple, and sinestcha, the latter of which are not super splashable. It's also extremely consistent in forcing progress mid-game in a way only specs kyurem does reliably while being less worried about hazards. Imo we need a few of these somewhat bulky, kinda fast breakers because they offer excellent value to balance and bo builds by giving them a tool that provides good value in every match-up while also being exploitable by ho or stall due to having checks inherently built in. As a little side note, water absorb greatly neuters Mola wishpass balance which would make the metagame similar to the end dlc1 with it benefiting zap and just causing a rise in regen spam which is something no one is really keen on.

 

[EpicGuy321]

Hi chat! I’ve come back with a new creation!



Gamb 2da Slaughter (Kingambit) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Grass Knot
- Iron Head
- Kowtow Cleave
- Sucker Punch

With 0 spatk EVs and a negative nature, Kingambit can cleanly 3HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 fallen ally, as well as 2HKOing . Tera Grass powers up Grass Knot, and allows Kingambit to resist ’s Thunderbolt, Great Tusk’s Headlong Rush, and .

Calcs:

0- SpA Kingambit Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 146-172 (28.9 - 34.1%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

0- SpA Supreme Overlord 1 ally fainted Kingambit Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 188-222 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0- SpA Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Grass Kingambit Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 384-452 (103.5 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And for Rillaboom+Curse Garg teams:

0- SpA Supreme Overlord 1 ally fainted Tera Grass Kingambit Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Garganacl in Grassy Terrain: 216-254 (53.4 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Grassy Terrain recovery.

What do you think of this meal? Five-Star Cooking or Burnt?

 

[Heatranator]

Hi chat! I’ve come back with a new creation!



Gamb 2da Slaughter (Kingambit) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Grass Knot
- Iron Head
- Kowtow Cleave
- Sucker Punch

With 0 spatk EVs and a negative nature, Kingambit can cleanly 3HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 fallen ally, as well as 2HKOing . Tera Grass powers up Grass Knot, and allows Kingambit to resist ’s Thunderbolt, Great Tusk’s Headlong Rush, and .

Calcs:

0- SpA Kingambit Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 146-172 (28.9 - 34.1%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

0- SpA Supreme Overlord 1 ally fainted Kingambit Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 188-222 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0- SpA Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Grass Kingambit Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 384-452 (103.5 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And for Rillaboom+Curse Garg teams:

0- SpA Supreme Overlord 1 ally fainted Tera Grass Kingambit Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Garganacl in Grassy Terrain: 216-254 (53.4 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Grassy Terrain recovery.

What do you think of this meal? Five-Star Cooking or Burnt?

Bad set, use specs instead.


Okay, kinda cool, but not cooking. Low kick is a much better move to destroy dondozo and Garg.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Kingambit can cleanly 3HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 fallen ally

somehow that doesn't seem very clean to me

I still suspect we may have to look at mechanics like Booster Energy since it's gonna be hard to ban any particular mon. But that's another tangent.

i really don't think booster is a problem. it breaks two mons at most and i've gone over this in detail. besides this, if the community isn't going to rally behind broken mons, it's really not going to rally around a non-broken item

 

[Bold School]

This whole post doesn’t actually discuss any counterplay to Ogerpon-Wellspring, instead opting to incorrectly label it as a Tera hog and claim it’s predictable (what does this mean when 3 moves hit the entire tier short of Amoonguss?).

I don’t even think there’s an issue with saying you don’t find it to be a problem, but what you’re saying doesn’t move the needle at all. What do you use on your balance and offense teams that makes it “almost never an issue”?

Well, I said what I think. I didn't know you were looking for anything specific when you asked for what we think. Nor did I plan for my largely neutral opinion on the thing to "move the needle" for you. I called it predictable because it is generally going to be STABS and a combination of Swords Dance, Encore, or various coverages, which are generally one or two of several staples. You don't have to worry about a strange item or Tera typing. My point is it does what it does very well, but you know exactly what it does. Even something you think of normally as very predictable like Raging Bolt can entirely flip the expectations you had for it with a different item like Grassy Seed or Assault Vest. Waterpon just doesn't go outside of expected norms. I'm not too worried about most of the variables when I face it compared to most other threats in the tier. I don't see what is controversial about that.

I said Tera hog because all the Pon forms need Tera to maximize its abilities by design. You can decide to not Tera, and you probably do that in matchups that it isn't as strong in, but you aren't getting the max potential of the mon by doing that. And you are leaving some wallbreaking potential on the table by not using the Tera. I mean, it's just an objective truth from a game design standpoint that its mechanics are centered around Tera.

As for matchups, well, I think it depends on how you build and what style you play. Most people have already touched on Wellspring being more of a problem for slower teams. So I didn't feel like I needed to go into more specifics. I'll at least try to give you a picture of what I do.

Lately, I use a lot of Rillaboom teams, faster mons, or priority like everyone else on offensive teams. I use a lot of fast things so Oger damage is often limited. I have also used the base form Oger a decent amount. There have been a lot of Dragons on my teams because many of them are good in the meta. Play Rough is a problem for Dragons, but not Gouging Fire. D-nite sets up on Waterpon with Multiscale. Generally, there is also at least one poison on my teams like Glowking, Glimm, or even a rare Geezing. Hazards are common on my teams. Glimm got more common for me again because it helps me deal with Gouging Fire a bit more easily. I don't use Zama much so I don't know how that does into Play Rough. I assume it must be decent into Pon, right?

Anyways, most of my teams are gonna have a Poison type, faster threats/priority, and at least one Grass and/or Dragon type. I hope that helps you get a clear picture. I'm not saying what I do is better, either. It's just a result of the styles I play and how I tend to teambuild in a threat saturated meta.

If you were to build your teams with something like Prim as one of the defensive staples, you might struggle with Pon more. And its great into a lot of the rest of the tier. I can make that case about Gouging Fire and numerous other threats, too. Balance generally doesn't have room for defensive checks to all the threats in the tier. But that's not specifically a Waterpon problem. And I don't believe that changes if, say, Cornerstone winds up replacing it in a lot of instances.

And what about Cornerstone? Cornerstone hits the big 3 Unaware walls (Dozo, Clod, and Dirge) for super effective STAB. Clef probably doesn't have enough defense to switch into it. The metal birds are still neutral to Rock BONK. All the water walls are still hit by Grass coverage. Most of the grounds are at least hit neutrally if they aren't outright weak to Grass. Dragons are not usually a switch in for Rock STAB and Gouging Fire is hit harder. I said this before, but I really don't think Cornerstone has more than mostly minor differences.

Again, I'm not against a Wellspring suspect or even a ban. But it's not really on me to prove if it would "move the needle." In my personal opinion, all the other current borderline threats would result in much larger changes since they don't still have relevant alternate forms left. I'll still take a Wellspring ban if you can get it. But it's not like I could refute a lot of the anti-ban stances that are sure to come up in a suspect. Maybe you could. I don't know.

I still suspect we may have to look at mechanics like Booster Energy since it's gonna be hard to ban any particular mon. But that's another tangent.

 

[Moyashi]

And I don't believe that changes if, say, Cornerstone winds up replacing it in a lot of instances.

And what about Cornerstone? Cornerstone hits the big 3 Unaware walls (Dozo, Clod, and Dirge) for super effective STAB. Clef probably doesn't have enough defense to switch into it. The metal birds are still neutral to Rock BONK. All the water walls are still hit by Grass coverage. Most of the grounds are at least hit neutrally if they aren't outright weak to Grass. Dragons are not usually a switch in for Rock STAB and Gouging Fire is hit harder. I said this before, but I really don't think Cornerstone has more than mostly minor differences.

Cornerstone has next to no defensive utility making positioning it significantly harder to position by comparison to Wellspring, and it's nowhere near as splashable either.

Lately, I use a lot of Rillaboom teams, faster mons, or priority like everyone else on offensive teams. I use a lot of fast things so Oger damage is often limited. I have also used the base form Oger a decent amount. There have been a lot of Dragons on my teams because many of them are good in the meta. Play Rough is a problem for Dragons, but not Gouging Fire. D-nite sets up on Waterpon with Multiscale. Generally, there is also at least one poison on my teams like Glowking, Glimm, or even a rare Geezing. Hazards are common on my teams. Glimm got more common for me again because it helps me deal with Gouging Fire a bit more easily. I don't use Zama much so I don't know how that does into Play Rough. I assume it must be decent into Pon, right?

Unless you're CB Rilla, it actually does not threaten to KO Wellspring back without a large amount of chip (while those same bulky Rilla sets need to stay in pristine shape or they drop to +2 power whip). Gouging Fire needs to be bulky to reliably survive a +2 Cudgel, and any prior chip means it can't survive, while bulky sets can't beat a tera'd Wellspring. Other dragons get bopped by Play Rough, Glowking can't take +2 Cudgels even at max defense if Wellspring teras and Galar Weezing is both fringe and unable to handle +2 tera Cudgel either. I'll also point out Zama is a very short term answer also as it can only get the +1 defense once, and HDB sets take a lot from Cudgel without that boost. Set up sets are better though admitttedly.

As a little side note, water absorb greatly neuters Mola wishpass balance which would make the metagame similar to the end dlc1 with it benefiting zap and just causing a rise in regen spam which is something no one is really keen on.

Just gonna also leave this here, but fearmongering about an uncertainty like this is not an argument to keep something around. You also cannot claim Mola balance would be similar to DLC1 without proof. Especially as Wellspring alone isn't the only way to threaten these balance squads.

 

[Heatranator]

I still suspect we may have to look at mechanics like Booster Energy since it's gonna be hard to ban any particular mon. But that's another tangent.

Eh, no. I get where you are trying to come from, by banning a mechanic which might be easier to do, but booster ain't it. As DaddyBuzzwole said, it breaks only maybe moon and raging bolt, which both would pivot to other sets. I've used grassy seed moon, which does quite well, and air balloon bolt which can decimate people that only have a ground type to resist electric moves. Plus, booster valiant, despite people saying it excarebates the speed tier issue, is actually a healthy component of the tier. With the prevelance of really fast mons such as dragapult, zama, darkrai and weavile, speed tiers were going to be wack.

Cornerstone has next to no defensive utility making positioning it significantly harder to position by comparison to Wellspring, and it's nowhere near as splashable either.

Stop saying it has no defensive utility. Sturdy on its own is massive for defensive utility, as being able to soft check basically anything is amazing defensive utiltity. Plus, it can take an ursaluna facade in a pinch, which is massive for teams that struggle with it. So no, it does have defensive utility. Maybe not as much as waterpon who can switch into water move willy nilly, but still a great deal of defensive utility.

 

[Moyashi]

Stop saying it has no defensive utility. Sturdy on its own is massive for defensive utility, as being able to soft check basically anything is amazing defensive utiltity. Plus, it can take an ursaluna facade in a pinch, which is massive for teams that struggle with it. So no, it does have defensive utility. Maybe not as much as waterpon who can switch into water move willy nilly, but still a great deal of defensive utility.

Sturdy on a frail mon that can't wear boots is not reliable defensive utility, and necessitates heavy anti hazard support which heavily limits the teams it fits on. It also cannot switch into Luna reliably, given facade is a roll to OHKO if even stealth rock is up, and Headlong Rush drops it outright. It doesn't have a great deal of defensive utility.

 

[Heatranator]

Sturdy on a frail mon that can't wear boots is not reliable defensive utility, and necessitates heavy anti hazard support which heavily limits the teams it fits on. It also cannot switch into Luna reliably, given facade is a roll to OHKO if even stealth rock is up, and Headlong Rush drops it outright. It doesn't have a great deal of defensive utility.

Run horn leech on it, or if you really want to, synthesis. For some faster paced teams, sturdy absolutely comes into play. Also, while hazard removal does limit the teams it can be on, it isn't by that much. It just means something like HDB spam can't use it, which is like one team style. Tusk is one of the best mons in the tier, and that can semi-reliably get hazards off the field. And let me tell you, it is worth it. I used cornerstone a lot in early DLC2, because I thought it was going to be better than waterpon which was dropping off, and sturdy came into play a lot. I even used charm to increase its defensive utility a lot. Even against ghold, it can use horn leech to get back to sturdy if it takes just stealth rock damage. Plus, rock tera is better than water tera since it can boost it's defense and take many hits.
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Rock Ogerpon-Cornerstone-Tera: 238-282 (79 - 93.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Look at that, I would say that is decent defensive utility. Sure, it's not going to be the best defensive mon, but I think that is on par with waterpon.
It can't replicate waterpon's role 1-1, but it can do similar things. Honestly, grass+rock coverage is even better than water+grass. It only really needs stabs + fighting move, as only ghold resists all moves.

 

[Bold School]

Cornerstone has next to no defensive utility making positioning it significantly harder to position by comparison to Wellspring, and it's nowhere near as splashable either.

Sturdy, Extreme Speed resistance, and a defense boost = next to no defensive utility? It's going to be a bit harder for most things to revenge kill it with priority. Grass/Rock is a decent defensive typing, too. Pure Rock isn't as much, but it has uses like against Fire damage or U-Turn chip.

Unless you're CB Rilla, it actually does not threaten to KO Wellspring back without a large amount of chip (while those same bulky Rilla sets need to stay in pristine shape or they drop to +2 power whip).

You can generally live a hit with Rillaboom since you resist both STABs, U-Turn, and bring in something threatening on offense or balance teams. By the time Wellspring comes back in, it would have more chip with hazards and such. Then Rilla might able able to finish it off. Grassy Terrain teams tend to do well into Wellspring. Pun intended.

Eh, no. I get where you are trying to come from, by banning a mechanic which might be easier to do, but booster ain't it. As DaddyBuzzwole said, it breaks only maybe moon and raging bolt, which both would pivot to other sets. I've used grassy seed moon, which does quite well, and air balloon bolt which can decimate people that only have a ground type to resist electric moves. Plus, booster valiant, despite people saying it excarebates the speed tier issue, is actually a healthy component of the tier. With the prevelance of really fast mons such as dragapult, zama, darkrai and weavile, speed tiers were going to be wack.

The point is more about bringing down the overall power level of the tier a bit than about any one thing being broken by it. It was debatable only a couple mons were truly broken by sleep, but that didn't make it competitive in a gen 9 context.

I don't think the speed tiers would be too problematic since everybody on non-stall teams runs priority anyways. Choice Scarf becoming more common again would likely be good for the tier since it's generally easier to play around. You would also be dealing with less immediately extremely fast and/or strong set up monsters. Slowing the DD runaway train by even a turn would be huge. It would just take some much needed pressure off of everyone's defensive cores.

I have used Grassy Seed sets of both Moon and Bolt. They are each very good. Same for several other non Booster variants. You are right that they would both switch to different things and still be strong. Personally, I believe Moon is broken and Bolt is not. But everybody has varying opinions on the borderline threats and who to target. Wellspring and Volc would be the main relevant borderline threats not touched by a Booster Energy suspect since Kyurem was fairly recently suspected. My opinion this week was target Booster Energy and then Volcarona.

 

[Conflux123]

Sturdy, Extreme Speed resistance, and a defense boost = next to no defensive utility? It's going to be a bit harder for most things to revenge kill it with priority. Grass/Rock is a decent defensive typing, too. Pure Rock isn't as much, but it has uses like against Fire damage or U-Turn chip.

SR is super common, and I think what they're saying is that it definitely has less defensive utility than waterpon, since it's water absorb+water-grass typing versus sturdy and grass-rock typing.

 

[Insolence]

Waterpon does have counterplay, but adding that to your team generally requires sacrificing it elsewhere. In a meta with so many threats, putting yourself in a situation where you can adequately counter Waterpon, leaves you far more vulnerable to other extremely common mons, such as Glowking. I dislike backseating SPL games so I won't try to analyze them but in most of the week 9 games Waterpon either took heavy chip from entry hazards and ended up trading or got checked by mons like Hydrapple (stormzone vs devin). This mostly matches my experience vs. it on ladder. The argument obviously exists that certain team compositions get punished harder than others by it, but this is true for many mons and I don't think Waterpon is any worse than Kyurem in this regard.

In many ways I see parallels to Gouge here, both mons have options which can feel overwhelming to deal with, however a lot of this power is indirect as in choosing to counter the mon you reduce your ability to deal with other meta threats. I did not play a ton during the Gouge suspect due to the release of other games, but as more people slot it into their team the opportunity cost of running a counter to it decreases. I have no doubt that this will also be the case with Waterpon if it gets suspected (it does have higher usage right now than Gouge did earlier in the dlc meta, but we'll need to look at the stats for march to really see.)

Cogerpon is a very interesting mon which I think is held back by species clause, there's a lot to experiment with. I do still agree with the discussion above that its typing and ability are distinctly worse than Waterpon, so I doubt it will replace it directly in any team if Waterpon were to get banned, but there is a lot to still explore with it.

 

[sire clod]

Curious what people think of Ogerpon-Wellspring. I find the combination of STABs and Play Rough challenging to switch into. I think it makes building balance or bulky teams really challenging. Switchins to it are limited, but its own switchins are limited as well admittedly.

definitely falls in the "annoying to deal with" category but definitely not broken for me

 

[Moyashi]

Sturdy, Extreme Speed resistance, and a defense boost = next to no defensive utility? It's going to be a bit harder for most things to revenge kill it with priority. Grass/Rock is a decent defensive typing, too. Pure Rock isn't as much, but it has uses like against Fire damage or U-Turn chip.

I already went over why sturdy isn’t very reliable defensively in a hazard centric meta with such few removal tools. Grass/rock is also not good typing defensively as it has a meager 2 resistances (one of which is normal which basically doesn’t exist outside Luna which Corner can’t switch into anyways), the other is electric. Again I’m not saying its a bad mon, but it’s nowhere near as splashable as Wellspring is.

The point is more about bringing down the overall power level of the tier a bit than about any one thing being broken by it. It was debatable only a couple mons were truly broken by sleep, but that didn't make it competitive in a gen 9 context.

sleep was uncompetitive. BE is not. I’m not really sure what your argument is there comparing them.

also removing BE isn’t gonna make scarf pop up again. There just aren’t a lot of good scarfer options this gen.

 

[Heatranator]

I already went over why sturdy isn’t very reliable defensively in a hazard centric meta with such few removal tools. Grass/rock is also not good typing defensively as it has a meager 2 resistances (one of which is normal which basically doesn’t exist outside Luna which Corner can’t switch into anyways), the other is electric. Again I’m not saying its a bad mon, but it’s nowhere near as splashable as Wellspring is.




sleep was uncompetitive. BE is not. I’m not really sure what your argument is there comparing them.

also removing BE isn’t gonna make scarf pop up again. There just aren’t a lot of good scarfer options this gen.

I mean, waterpon also only has two resistances, which are ground and steel. Steel isn't really a common attacking type, gambit and ghold are the main ones, but ground is common. Cornerpon's (Which is what I'm calling it now) resistances are about the same. There is a reason why you need at least one ground type on a team.
I think a better comparison would be weaknesses.
Waterpon has three weaknesses, poison, flying and bug. Flying is not really that common, as only really corv uses brave bird, poison isn't the most common offensive type but being weak to both glowking and darkrai (it commonly runs sludge bomb) is problematic. Finally, being weak to bug is not really good, as u-turn chunks you HARD. Overall, not a bad defensive typing, but not really the best.
Cornerpon 4 weaknesses, ice, fighting, bug and steel. Steel types as mentioned above is a very uncommon attacking type. Being weak to bug is not good (I swear rock resists bug, I guess not). Ice type weakness is not the best, being weak to kyurem and weavile (I'm sorry meow, you ain't hot shit) is bad due to their prevelance, but at the very least they both are weak to it. Fighting isn't really good either, as it makes it weak to tusk, valiant and zama. Overall, a lot worse than waterpon, but not unworkable.
Overall, yes, waterpon has better defensive utility, but it isn't the absolute best. Water absorb is good into a large amount of mons, but I'd say into the whole metagame, sturdy is superior. Also, USE HORN LEECH. It is amazing on cornerpon as it allows it to reliably get back to sturdy. If hazards weren't so prevelant, then sturdy would 100% be the better ability. I'd say sturdy bumps up cornerpon to around the same level as waterpon in defensive ability.

 

[awyp]

Curious what people think of Ogerpon-Wellspring. I find the combination of STABs and Play Rough challenging to switch into. I think it makes building balance or bulky teams really challenging. Switchins to it are limited, but its own switchins are limited as well admittedly.

If it ever gets suspected I'm voting do not ban. I can elaborate in the suspect thread if / when it gets put out.

But it having no item makes it weak to Toxic Spike and Spikes / SR (Glimmora teams namely) and forces it a lot of support on the team building side with usually carrying an entry hazard remover. This goes with spike stack teams (SR and Spikes)

Has very bad 4MSS, Ivy Cudgel (Water), Grass Move [Horn Leech or Power Whip] are the 2 mandatory moves and then you can mix it up with other moves like Knock Off, Synthesis, Substitute, U-Turn, Spikes, Swords Dance, Low Kick, Superpower, Play Rough, Encore, Grassy Glide and Spiky Shield.

Speed is pretty good but not elite, have to resort to Grassy Glide under terrain or Trailblaze

I genuinely think it keeps Balance and some Stall honest which we really need in this meta, I can elaborate in a future post.

Yeah is it challenging to switch into? sure but you essentially just need a Dragon or a Grass mon and switch in and make sure it doesn't go for the Play Rough [Then make a business decision on if to tera or go for the double] or whatever it has for Grass mons (which aren't common but I have to have an honorable mention)

 

[Alternator]

I got a bit curious about the Eleki suggestions, and I'm not sure that's crazy talk. The Transistor nerf and general offensive power creep means it actually has defensive checks without dipping into lower tiers, as well as options to revenge it or switch in, eat a hit, and force it out.

252 SpA Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 93-111 (14.2 - 17%) -- possible 6HKO
Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 0 HP Regieleki: 100-100 (33.2 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Just getting this out of the way, but Blissey obviously doesn't care about Regieleki.


252 SpA Tera Ice Regieleki Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 138-164 (26.8 - 31.9%) -- 34.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Ice Regieleki: 204-240 (67.7 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Ting-Lu can take an Ice Tera Blast like a champ, no surprise there.


252 SpA Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 109-129 (27.6 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 SpA Slowking-Galar Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Regieleki: 181-214 (60.1 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Glowking can switch in and win a 1v1, or pivot out and heal off the initial hit with Regenerator.


252 SpA Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 174-205 (44.1 - 52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Regieleki: 169-199 (56.1 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Clef can come in off a pivot and threaten with Moonblast, which pairs nicely with Glowking.


252 SpA Tera Ice Regieleki Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 158-188 (34.1 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Clodsire Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Ice Regieleki: 147-174 (48.8 - 57.8%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO

Another in the category "needs a pivot to come in, but wins the 1v1" for defensive answers.


252 SpA Tera Ice Regieleki Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Treads: 145-172 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Ice Regieleki: 255-301 (84.7 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Same deal as before, except it's a favorable gamble to hard switch in if Regieleki has even modest chip already.


252 SpA Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meowscarada: 106-126 (36.1 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Meowscarada Flower Trick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Regieleki on a critical hit: 264-312 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Scarf Meowscarada outspeeds and can force Regieleki out, though it dies instantly to Ice Tera Blast if the Regieleki player predicts the switch in correctly.


252 SpA Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cinderace: 204-240 (67.7 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Regieleki: 313-370 (103.9 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Cinderace is not switching in, but it can force Regieleki out off a pivot move or after a kill.


252 SpA Transistor Tera Ice Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Primarina: 188-224 (58.5 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Primarina Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Ice Regieleki: 288-339 (95.6 - 112.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

AV Primarina is going to get chunked, but does force Regieleki out. Surf also has an OHKO roll, though a less favorable one.


252 SpA Tera Ice Regieleki Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gouging Fire: 117-138 (33.3 - 39.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Gouging Fire Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Regieleki: 342-403 (113.6 - 133.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Gouging Fire can come in, take a hit, and force Regieleki out immediately with the threat of an OHKO. Earthquake misses the OHKO on Tera-Ice even with the Proto boost active, doing 82% at minimum.


252 SpA Tera Ice Regieleki Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem: 118-141 (30.1 - 36%) -- 44.2% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Ice Regieleki: 366-432 (121.5 - 143.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Earth Power is an OHKO pre-Tera, but needs Eleki to have taken significant damage to kill off Tera-Ice, while Draco Meteor kills regardless.


252 SpA Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 142-168 (36.5 - 43.2%) -- 98.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 88 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Regieleki: 273-322 (90.6 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

AoA set OHKOs with Close Combat, but even the Body Press set will win.

Obviously, this is a big old Wall of Calcs, but it shows that Regieleki isn't freely able to blast through the tier. I didn't include mons from lower tiers on the VR, anything that needs to tera, or a handful of mons like Kingambit that you wouldn't be using as checks unless you're about to lose anyway. Regieleki does outspeed Booster Speed Valiant by two points, though, so the speed creep is real.

Much like Lugia, I'd love to see this in a tournament and hate to see it dropped straight into OU for testing, but it's not insane to consider.

 

[SandVeil10]

A few days ago, 658Greninja mentioned Rotom-Mow as a means for Balance teams to deal with Wellspring, while also having a good matchup against Primarina, Alomomola and Dondozo, as well as Garganacl and Serperior, though the latter is more of a niche pick right now.

I haven't tried it out myself, but to those who have, have you been finding success with Rotom-Mow?

 

[Bold School]

Isleep was uncompetitive. BE is not. I’m not really sure what your argument is there comparing them.

The point was Sleep was deemed unhealthy for the tier despite not outright breaking many mons.

Booster Energy may not break many if any mons directly, but it absolutely spikes the overall power level of the tier. Of course, it is just one of many factors that does so.

also removing BE isn’t gonna make scarf pop up again. There just aren’t a lot of good scarfer options this gen.

Isn't the lack of scarfers more because Booster Energy is just generally superior to Choice Scarf? In most cases, you are better off not locking yourself into moves. This is particularly true with how offensive the meta is and all the setup mons we have in the tier. We have so many mons that can click set up moves like Dragon Dance or even SD or Calm Mind + Booster Speed. In prior gens, most of those same mons couldn't have run setup and gotten a speed boost at the same time outside of like weather. The speed tiers have been completely warped by BE.

And most of the somewhat slower mons that you might otherwise like for Choice Scarf cannot justify it when like every non-stall team is full of BE mons. Like how can anyone justify Scarf Lando-T or Enamorus when they would just be outrun by everyone's booster mons? I think Scarf Valiant could be decent. But who would ever run that over BE? Nobody. There is no reason to.

 

[Moyashi]

I got a bit curious about the Eleki suggestions, and I'm not sure that's crazy talk. The Transistor nerf and general offensive power creep means it actually has defensive checks without dipping into lower tiers, as well as options to revenge it or switch in, eat a hit, and force it out.



Obviously, this is a big old Wall of Calcs, but it shows that Regieleki isn't freely able to blast through the tier. I didn't include mons from lower tiers on the VR, anything that needs to tera, or a handful of mons like Kingambit that you wouldn't be using as checks unless you're about to lose anyway. Regieleki does outspeed Booster Speed Valiant by two points, though, so the speed creep is real.

Much like Lugia, I'd love to see this in a tournament and hate to see it dropped straight into OU for testing, but it's not insane to consider.

outside ting-Lu, and blissed who is stall exclusive, eleki just endlessly volt switches on things it can’t kill immediately and it’s impossible to punish offensively without priority. It’s a very stupid Pokémon and not remotely worth entertaining.

Can we stop talking about dropping things when we have enough on the plate as is. seriously’

 

[Heatranator]

Guys, just use any fast electric type. That's basically just slightly worse regieleki.
Idk, not much really is going to come out of a eleki unban, besides maybe one more spinner (and no, it would not be worth it because people would be spamming offensive eleki instead of spinning).