This is honestly how I feel. Balance, although works, isn't the best right now. When I build HO or stall, it feels like there's some variety to what can be besides obvious picks like Blissey for stall and Glimmor for HO. I could run Hydrapple or even Vensaur to counter ogerpon on stall. Or run Latias to wish pass. Same for HO. Feels like there's a variety with how you can customize your offensive threats. Iron valiant, iron moth, boulder, toaring moon, tusk, kingambit, lando, and so, so many more can be run on HO. There are so many threats on Ho they can sacrifice to run more variety. Not balance at all. Balance right now doesn't have the extremes of defense of stall or the offensive of HO meaning there needs to be insane role compression in this meta. Pokemon need to multiple things at once or you will lose to a specific playstyle easily. That's why the same Pokemon are typically spammed on balance such as gking, tusk, or kambit. You can't sacrifice to run anything else unlike HO or stall or you will dam lose right away. Balance can still be great don't get me wrong, but trying to build it and use it is really hard. Would love to hear if anyone ideas differ.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
It’s not as straightforward to build as HO but it’s definitely doable. I managed to claw back to the ~1750s after a long post-DLC2 slump using a balance team with the classic Glowking + Alomomola core. Mola replaced Dondozo, which is a powerful defense mon but lacks the utility and pivoting capabilities of Mola. It’s currently a very potent mon for balance structures.
Another mon I recommend is Grasspon. It lacks the pure offensive power of Waterpon but in return it can run Boots, provides emergency speed control with Tera, packs much needed Encore support, and can check Gargarnacl. This enables it to compress several tools that Balance needs.
Kyurem had roost last gen though so its staying power was significantly greater than it is now. Combined with gen 9 being much faster paced on average, its not as much of an issue. If I made a list of reasons to ban Kyurem freeze chance would be near the bottom.
In OUPL there was a game decided by a Pult Shadow Ball crit drop, and I agree. If we ban freeze, then we might ban things like shadow ball for the sp def drop chance that can win games. At that point we might argue about getting rid of crits as well. Crits have even less chance to happen than ice beam freeze for most moves after all.
Idk why but I'm always happy when Heatrans doing well, that dawg is a real one
In my opinion offensive leaning teams are king at the moment but all styles are good. Probably a hot take but Gen 9 feels well balanced to me even though we have a ton of sweepers that we have to build around. Broken checks broken you know. If you struggle with Kyurem just do a proper check in team building to see if you can beat it.
I think Hawlucha is a sleeper pick right now. Fighting is a needed type to deal with the unholy lord Kingambit, and it’s basically a junior Sneasler with worse attack but swapping out a poison stab which only hits Fairy for a better flying stab to shoot out STAB Acrobatics, which at +2 can 2 hit Gholdengo, it’s main counter. Since you aren’t locked into Flying Tera like most Sneasler, you can use Tera Dark to whack Ghold with TB for a OHKO at +2. It also can be a fast support with moves like Encore, Taunt, and Defog with a 606 Speed with neutral nature and Unburden proc. Its move set should be CC/Drain Acro TB/Fling and SD, if you have TB you should one hundred percent use CC and White Her. and with Fling use Rare Bone or the like and possibly Drain Punch for some recovery. You can also use it on any team with a terrain setter, boosting its middling bulk with a Seed and you could use Fire Punch for Ghold coverage. Give me your thoughts.
Hawlucha seems like it has some potential, but it absolutely needs to capitalize on Unburden since its offense is pretty meh for SV OU without a SD boost and any power it can muster (high BP moves, SD, even Adamant Nature).
One thing I will mention for your move suggestions, Tera Blast is unnecessary for Dark Hawlucha coverage, as it has access to Throat Chop which has equal power without the need to Terastalize to be used. I'm not a fan of Fling since it's one-time use and commits you to Unburden Sweeping without having gotten your SD boost in yet (or requiring you survive a turn to SD and THEN Fling for your speed at the expense of your one time Dark Coverage), whereas Support moves mentioned like Encore, Taunt, or the unmentioned Substitute provide Hawlucha more means to disrupt opponents or create openings. The biggest issue is that it has a very hard time breaking certain fat balance staples without being crippled like Dondozo, Gliscor, Defensive Gholdengo, and Alomomola unless you run those moves. Raging Bolt also presents a threat to it with Thunderclap and being able to tank almost any neutral hit from +2 with its standard investment.
Hawlucha's biggest issue is that while strong, it's linear and so dependent on its set-up that your opponent will see it coming a mile away, so you need to create an immense amount of pressure and momentum to get it into a position to make that one chance it gets count.
Yeah, Lucha has gained a lot of traction recently, it'd be so cool if it rises again to OU. I mean look at its usage for this month:
| 43 | Serperior | 4.791% |
| 44 | Iron Boulder | 4.095% |
| 45 | Iron Crown | 3.961% |
| 46 | Hawlucha | 3.330% |
Make it happen, we need mexican representation in the tier!!
Damn thats higher than Garchomps 2% and Latias 1.46%, and now that we got 3 months time for tier update Hawlucha might actually catch on wow
I totally missed the Throat Chop in its movepool, thanks.
I agree with many of your points, although Sneasler suffered from many of the same issues yet managed to thrive. Although it does suffer to many defensive monsters, some could argue all Pokemon do. I do think Hawlucha suffers from major 4MSS as it wants to run SD, it’s 2 stabs, coverage, and something like Taunt, Encore, or the aforementioned Substitute. A more gimmicky set could run Flying Press en leu of both Acro and CC to allow it to do this, as it deals damage with both Fighting and Flying effectiveness simultaneously, and possibly Hone Claws to ensure the hit.
Thinking about Hawlucha just makes me think about how much i miss Tapu Lele as I feel Psy-Terrain helps Hawlucha's viability more than Grassy does, and I was looking for a funny meme of tapu lele to go along with this point and now I need bleach in my eyes.
To bring a more substantial point, Hawlucha is also hindered by the popularity of Tera Ghost as of late, I have been using Hawlu for some time now and I cannot tell you how many Gambits have just said NOPE and ruined my endorphine rush. However, I agree that it is having some resurgence and I def appreciate it. I have used it alongside T-Grass Heatran as a stallbreaker/trapper and it's a nice combo, and even if you can trade 2 or 3 opponents for Hawlucha, picking up the pieces is a breeze with the rest of your team. It just needs a lot of support to come in, as it only does the thing once, but hey I'll take it anyday over running Rillaboom with no dedicated partners you know? it's a match made in heaven. monke and birb be thriving
My biggest problem with Hawlucha is it is a fairly bad revenge killer since it needs a turn to SD. And before that, you need to ensure terrain it up. If an opposing sweeper gets out of control, it just takes too long to get it going unless there is significant preexisting chip or you can catch them still in the setup phase with Encore. But Encore limits your coverage options a bit, making it easier to setup yet harder to sweep. It's a speed control option that really is limited to mostly setup.
Blaziken has a similar issue. It just takes a bit too long for it to get going with base 80 into Speed Boost and maybe a setup move. And then you really want a supporting move for this like Protect, but this ruins impacts coverage.
Gen 9 often doesn't give you the time for all that. You want thing that can flip the game with like a turn. Otherwise, they are often too slow. BE changed revenge killer forever.
The limitations of Hawlucha make it not the best revenge killer. It just lack immediate power. So you generally have to SD first. Another limitation is the rain matchup. Barraskewda basically owns Psychic Terrain since it is faster than anything you can put on it and you lack priority. Since Rillaboom helps with all these issues, it makes a far better partner for Hawlucha.
Blaziken has a similar issue. It just takes a bit too long for it to get going with base 80 into Speed Boost and maybe a setup move. And then you really want a supporting move for this like Protect, but this ruins impacts coverage.
Gen 9 often doesn't give you the time for all that. You want thing that can flip the game with like a turn. Otherwise, they are often too slow. BE changed revenge killer forever.
I have tried Hawlucha (and many other options looking for speed control) on Psychic Terrain and it is sadly much better in prior gens. This isn't just because of a lack of good setters. The biggest problem is how Booster Energy completely warps speed tiers. Even something like a Scarf Lele might not be fast enough in this metagame because of BE. Psychic Terrain teams have a huge speed control problem in this gen since they compromise on priority. All the teams that aren't heavily defensive with Unaware backbones typically need priority to ensure they aren't swept by all the powerful fast sweepers. Ironically, one of the only ways to fix that priority issue is to run Rillaboom since it ends Psychic Terrain.
The limitations of Hawlucha make it not the best revenge killer. It just lack immediate power. So you generally have to SD first. Another limitation is the rain matchup. Barraskewda basically owns Psychic Terrain since it is faster than anything you can put on it and you lack priority. Since Rillaboom helps with all these issues, it makes a far better partner for Hawlucha.
Not that I disagree, I'm with you on pretty much all points, but I feel like you've overestimating the impact of BE, at least in the Hawlucha match-up. The point of Hawlucha seems to me to outspeed even Scarf and BE mons. Iron Valiant is perhaps the most consistent user of BE and gets obliterated by Acrobatics. Roaring Moon gets CC'd on it's face, and Iron Moth has negative defense stats. Wake is a bit more iffy, but even then Wake usage has been plummeting as far as i've seen. Beyond that, I can't think of many mons who would enjoy a ProtoSpeed boost. Those that do, yeah they be fast, but I believe there's counterplay to them, and if anything BE encourages some creative sets, I saw a RBolt set with ProtoDefense to counter Gambit which was fyah. Everything is faster this gen, but also there's a lot more priority and the mons that actually get impacted by BE are too few to judge the item collectively. I think there's a case to be made about RMoon's brokenness, but all the others seem fine to me. Or maybe I have just gotten used to them. Anyway, I don't wanna get into an argument, last time I was an ass + L + ratio + post your elo, and you brought some good points that I've been thinking about, so I really liked what you had to say about Hawlucha. I just finished my draft for its analysis writeup and this discussion thats been happening this afternoon will be very helpful in my revision. Take care man
Cheryl.
Celesteela is Life
Hawlucha still not being OU by usage surprises me when it's seen rather consistent success in SPL and seems like it would be the perfect ladder mon. I guess fitting on only one playstyle could be a factor into why it's not used as much on ladder, but GTerrain offense is still pretty good imo and really easy to pilot for the most part.
speaking of gterrain offense, has anyone tried the grassy seed hoopa-u idea that i saw posted a while back? (might have been my idea, i don't remember)
That's actually a bad set. Not trying to start an argument. I'm telling you this because I initially made this mistake. Due to the large difference in base stats, you can't run something like BE defense on Bolt without purposefully lowering your special attack. Otherwise, BE will give you a different boost like Special Attack since it will be the largest stat. But compromising on special attack on Raging Bolt is generally a very bad idea. Other BE can run into similar issues, so you need to be careful what stats you are compromising to get the Boosts you want.
What you want to do is run something like Grassy Seed Raging Bolt so that you can run Body Press with the defense boost without sacrificing special attack. It's a very potent set that allows you to be sort of a mix attacker in a way with Body Press and Thunderclap priority.
No, but it's worth noting that the special defense stat is much higher. I primarily have run Assault Vest Hoopa-U and it was very strong. I don't know if the bonus multiplier for a lacking defense stat would be as good, particularly as just a one time use. AV can come in multiple times and still have the same defensive utility. You also have a major U-Turn weakness, making coming in on many physical attackers more suspect in the first place.
I have tried running Grassy Seed on other mons and it tends to be strong or at least decent. Hoopa-U seems to have a lot more issues with this concept, but I don't know what the original vision for it was.
Update: I’ve tried to build more balance and I don’t believe the people who say it’s possible lol.
Honestly ridiculous how oppressive Paradox mons are, I really dearly hope they get permanently dexited in Gen 10 cause I actually want some more interesting mons to have success rather than these reskin stat beasts.
Hm, yeah. I saw that the guy who posted it had 30IVSpA but due to event limitations, it can only be 20 or 31, 31 passing max def and 20 being pretty low. I'll give ur set a try for sure, let's see if I can cook.
That's not a problem with paradox mons specifically, that's just because of gen 9's absurd powercreep. There are still some pretty bad paradox mons (scream tail, iron jugulis, iron leaves) and there are some bad new mons (Arboliva). But the overwhelming stat spreads is not exclusively a problem with the paradoxes. Mons like annihilape, kingambit, and gholdengo are also very clear problems no matter how you look at it.
Hoopa-U normally has a defense stat of 140, if we are using the mixed set on the calc. With a +1 boost, that is raised to 210. I did some quick calcs, and you still are ko'd by lando-t u-turn, but you did always live waterpon ivy cudgel. You also always live corv u-turn, which is definetely good. You also have a good chance to live 5 allies supreme overlord boosted gambit sucker punch, which is nice for endgames.
However, compare this to another grassy seed mon I've used that has a u-turn weakness, moon, and its kinda pathetic. Moon only takes 41% from lando-t u-turn.
TLDR, on paper it might sound nice, but you are right, Grassy seed Hoopa-U is just too bad.
Your wish is granted. Gen 10 will have even more oppressive Sub-Legebdaries.
Only three got banned (one of them was Moon who got unbanned and isn’t broken anymore)
The only paradox rn that is arguably broken is G-Fire. Most of the paradoxes are well-designed with their stat distributions, typings, and movepool. Hell, some of them are in the lower tiers.
I believe Gen 9 added the most high-BST mons of any generation, and I don't expect things to get toned down for GEN 10 of all generations given the historical significance of the occasion as you just know Gamefreak will flex.
We'll probably get even more 550+ BST third-stage Pokemon and strong legendaries with a snowballing mechanic in their abilities with optimized stats. If the power level is lower in Gen 10, it'll only be 'cause Tera isn't legal.
And since Mega Evolutions will be returning in Legends: Z-A, we'll get some historically strong additions that keep up with the passing of time and newly designed Megas that'll probably have some serious OU niches.
We'll probably get even more 550+ BST third-stage Pokemon and strong legendaries with a snowballing mechanic in their abilities with optimized stats. If the power level is lower in Gen 10, it'll only be 'cause Tera isn't legal.
And since Mega Evolutions will be returning in Legends: Z-A, we'll get some historically strong additions that keep up with the passing of time and newly designed Megas that'll probably have some serious OU niches.
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