Resource SV UU DLC 2 Viability Rankings- Update at Post #85

[Monky25]

This amazing art was created by Kolohe, thank you so much!!

Hosted by Monky25 and Lily​

Hello and welcome to the DLC 2 Scarlet and Violet UU Viability Rankings!

For those who are unfamiliar, in the Viability Rankings we come together as a community with a goal to rank every viable Pokemon within the SV UU metagame into ranks indicating their dominance and effect in the tier. This can serve as a great resource for teambuilding by essentially being a threat list, helping newer players understand which is the best Pokemon to use and what to account for while building. Any user is encouraged to post in this thread and share their thoughts on rankings that should be changed, which our lovely viability ranking team will read and discuss as we schedule VR updates. There is no set schedule for VR updates, but rather when we determine that the current rankings may be an inaccurate representation of the current metagame. There also is the possibility of mini updates which can be quick metagame changes that should directly happen without needing to conduct a full slate. The current viability council is below:

The current VR team is:
Monky25 (host)
Lily (host)
Lyssa
umbry
Estarossa
Moutemoute
Mossy Sandwich
Twilight
avarice
Askov
vivalospride
Queen of Bean
romanji
Rae

The ranking descriptions for what each rank means and what the characteristics are of Pokemon in these ranks are in the below spoiler:

Ranking Descriptions

S and S-: The best of the best Pokemon, being extremely splashable and versatile, having high consistency, and shaping the tier’s development. Their dominance has a notable effect on teambuilding and the dynamics of the tier. S- Pokemon are Pokemon that are a step above the rest of the A+ Pokemon but may not be as centralizing or potent as another S tier.
A+ and A: Great and metagame defining Pokemon that have exceptional prowess and must be accounted for while building. They are not as defining as S rank Pokemon, but are still strong Pokemon that most teams should make use of. A rank Pokemon have similar traits to A+ Pokemon but may be held back due to performance or usage.
A- and B+: These are Pokemon that still have an impactful role in the metagame and should still be accounted for, but lack the consistency and/or potency to be ranked any higher.
B: Generally the lowest ranking of Pokemon considered impactful to the tier, these Pokemon operate decently within the metagame but have enough notable flaws to keep them from being tier staples. This rank may also feature Pokemon that have potential for potency in the metagame, but are too unexplored to warrant a higher rank.
B- and C+: Pokemon in these ranks are without a doubt viable, but have noticeable flaws and restrictions that limit splashability and usage in the tier while not being too consistent either. Pokemon that are staples found in niche but viable playstyles reside here.
C: These Pokemon have roles in the metagame that are generally outclassed for the most part, but still have enough relevance and usefulness in the metagame to warrant a ranking.
D: Lastly, Pokemon in D rank are UU by usage but completely unviable. Discussion on D rank Pokemon is prohibited.

When nominating changes to happen in this VR PLEASE avoid personal biases and instead use information such as trends working for or against this Pokemon as well as usage to support your claim. Note usage does not always equal viability. There is a correlation, but just because Quaquaval got more usage last month than Slowking on the ladder does not mean it is a better Pokemon; tournament usage stats are generally better support for nominations. For nominating unranked Pokemon to be ranked, consider a few things: Does this have enough of a distinguishable niche in the metagame? (meaning does what it performs act differently enough from another ranked Pokemon). Also, should the first criteria be met, is this niche relevant enough in the current metagame? A good nomination of an unranked Pokemon would be here. Replays are also great tools to help support a nomination and are required to nominate an unranked Pokemon. And with that, here are our viability rankings! Happy posting!

S rank

Excadrill

S- Rank

Tornadus-Therian

Zapdos

A+ Rank

Hydrapple

Latios

Lokix

Slowking

A rank

Azumarill

Iron Crown

Kommo-o

Ogerpon-Cornerstone

Tinkaton

A- Rank

Barraskewda

Greninja

Hisuian Arcanine

Ogerpon

Pelipper

Scizor

Skeledirge

Tyranitar

B+ Rank

Cobalion

Empoleon

Keldeo

Mamoswine

Mandibuzz

Metagross

Mienshao

Rhyperior

Rotom-Wash

Toxapex

B Rank

Bisharp

Hippowdon

Okidogi

Raikou

Sandy Shocks

Terrakion

Ursaluna

Zarude

B- Rank

Amoonguss

Araquanid

Gastrodon

Hawlucha

Jirachi

Mimikyu

Pecharunt

Quaquaval

Sinistcha

Thundurus-Therian

Volcanion

C+ Rank

Cinccino

Enamorus-Therian

Grimmsnarl

Hisuian Goodra

Hoopa-Unbound

Indeedee

Hydriegon

Iron Jugulis

Magnezone

Manaphy

C Rank

Alolan Ninetales

Bellibolt

Brambleghast

Chesnaught

Comfey

Ditto

Donphan

Floatzel

Gardevoir

Gengar

Iron Leaves

Polteageist

Quagsire

Salamence

Scream Tail

Slowbro

Wo-Chien

D Rank

Galarian Weezing

 

[Monky25]

Update Log
Update #1- 2/12/2024
Mini Update #1 - 2/29/2024
Update #2- 3/12/24
Mini Update #2- 3/28/2024

 

[Monky25]

As usual, there will be a 48 hour period to ask questions about any placements to the VR before the thread is opened for nominations, where the VR team will respond to all your questions. Please be mindful of the current suspect test when making nominations after the question period is up. Also, Please do not repeat questions if they have been asked already, for your post will be deleted. I will answer a few questions that will likely be asked in advance

Didn’t you put up the viability list not long ago? Why put up the VR when we have a suspect test going on? Aren’t tier shifts soon as well?

• The reason the VR was put up now is that it was the best time to do so. Our non-negotiable plan was to put the VR up before UUPL, which starts in mid-late February. However, we have to deal with the impactful consequences of the upcoming tier shift that will create instability within the tier. Additionally, there will very likely be another test in February that will end before UUPL begins. As such, no matter what time we put up the VR, it will be done in unfortunate circumstances. However, we decided that it would be best to put the VR in during only a test rather than during a test + consequences of tier shifts. This was the best time to put the VR up, and as such we did.

Where is the D tier?

• Putting up a D tier is awkward when there’s a lot of bad stuff within the tier kept up by the nature of the DLC 2 tier shifts. It would be pretty sizable which adds confusion and for now was deemed to be unnecessary. When the February tier shifts are released, any Pokémon that failed to get ranked on the VR yet remained UU by usage will be added to D tier. Hopefully we don’t have any, but we will see very soon.

Ceruledge is being tested, but it’s only in A tier? Shouldn’t it be in S?

• How unhealthy/overpowered a Pokémon is doesn’t have to do with its viability. Ceruledge lacks the consistency and splashability of the Pokémon in S and A+ that makes anything higher than A hard to justify but still creates debatable unhealthy dynamics on the tier with its potent sweeping potential and negative effect on the builder and how it functions on hyper offense teams.

 

[Szark]

Why is Ursaluna all the way up to B+? I thought the ease of Hazard Stacking and the strong fast offensive threats in the meta would hold it back more.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Why is Ursaluna all the way up to B+? I thought the ease of Hazard Stacking and the strong fast offensive threats in the meta would hold it back more.

Same cuz at most it gets one kill then kinda dies... like it'd not doing much and getting one kill is kinds expected of a lon on ur team... with pretty much null defense presence on a team

 

[StarFalcon555]

Why is Gastrodon ranked in B? I haven't seen or thought about that mon since the DLC dropped, and there are just so many better hazard setters, Water types, and Ground types in the tier now.

Why are Alolan Ninetales and Grimmsnarl both ranked in B? I assumed A-tales would outrank Grimm by a long shot. Is it because of the sleep moves ban leaving A-tales unable to use Hypnosis?

 

[Lyssa]

Why is Ursaluna all the way up to B+? I thought the ease of Hazard Stacking and the strong fast offensive threats in the meta would hold it back more.

Same cuz at most it gets one kill then kinda dies... like it'd not doing much and getting one kill is kinds expected of a lon on ur team... with pretty much null defense presence on a team

While it's absolutely true that the hazard stacking problem exists and it's speed tier is a little awkward, ursaluna's still pretty relevant for a few reasons including being alomomola's best partner, being arguably the best stallbreaker in the tier, a style which we've seen a bit of resurgence from in the last couple of weeks, and finally it's defensive stats still make it one of the scariest tradebots to be up against. This last point also touches upon what was mentioned in the second post, going 1x1 at worse is not bad at all, especially with a mon like ursa that can choose his targets or even force out tera from the opponent, and the upsides are great.

Why is Gastrodon ranked in B? I haven't seen or thought about that mon since the DLC dropped, and there are just so many better hazard setters, Water types, and Ground types in the tier now.

A combination of being the most effective zapdos abuser the tier has, still being a very strong spikes setter and storm drain being pretty relevant with the variety of offensive water types currently present in the tier.

Why are Alolan Ninetales and Grimmsnarl both ranked in B? I assumed A-tales would outrank Grimm by a long shot. Is it because of the sleep moves ban leaving A-tales unable to use Hypnosis?

Personally I've always rated Grimmsnarl higher than A-tales even before the sleep moves ban, taunt is a seriously important move for their teamstyle, especially in current meta, and it's also a little less awkward into tornt than a-tales is since turn 1 knock-off is easier to avoid through parting shot and can help with repositioning. Both have their upsides and should be ranked about the same

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

Am wondering about the placements of Araquanid, Cinccino (why its considered much better than Maushold), Swampert, and the two Thundurus (IE why is Incarnate better than Therian ATM when it was the opposite just a few months ago).

Gengar on that note too, it was a C-rank mon in the DLC1 meta.

 

[Simonds]

My questions:

- Was Amoongus placed in B+ prior to the Spore ban or does this reflect its current viability?

- Seconding the question about why Maushold is ranked a full letter grade below Cinccino

- Why is Fezandipiti ranked?

 

[StarFalcon555]

the two Thundurus (IE why is Incarnate better than Therian ATM when it was the opposite just a few months ago).

...actually, on that note, why is Thundurus-Therian all the way in C+???? I knew it got worse, but I didn't think it got that bad. Does Zapdos really outclass it that hard?

 

[Moutemoute]

[...] Cinccino (why its considered much better than Maushold) [...]

My questions:

- Was Amoongus placed in B+ prior to the Spore ban or does this reflect its current viability?

- Seconding the question about why Maushold is ranked a full letter grade below Cinccino

While Maushold is better at dealing damages on the Normal-type, Cinccino outclasses it in every other way. It's faster, stronger and has way better coverage overall. The movepool difference allows it to be more threatening towards things such as Iron Treads, Sinistcha or Ogerpon-Cornerstone thanks to Triple Axel while the difference in attack and speed allows it to dent top threats without even using Tidy Up which is actually great.

About Amoonguss, as I said in this post, while the ban of Spore could be seen as a downgrade, it's actually not that bad and doesn't impact that much its viability. People need to remember that at the end of SS UU, most Amoonguss in teamtours were running Stun Spore and not Spore and I think this is what's gonna happen now too (this or Toxic). Amoonguss is still a great pivot thanks to its typing and access to Regenerator while allows it to pivot on things like Greninja, Azumarill, Ogerpon or Keldeo. It's alsol really great vs things like Garganacl thanks to Grass Knot or Sludge Bomb / Clear Smog (if Tera Fairy Garg). I think with or without Spore, Amoonguss is still in the same spot because it wasn't ranked because of Spore but thanks to its defensive assets.

 

[Despicable]

500+ BST is for chumps.

 

[somethingaboutsomething]

why is necrozma so low? It has pretty great stats, a great ability and more than one dangerous set...

 

[somethingaboutsomething]

Am wondering about the placements of Araquanid, Cinccino (why its considered much better than Maushold), Swampert, and the two Thundurus (IE why is Incarnate better than Therian ATM when it was the opposite just a few months ago).

Gengar on that note too, it was a C-rank mon in the DLC1 meta.

i mean im not the best player but araquinid is a pretty bulky sticky web user that doesnt lose to defog scizor, cinccino is faster and has more attack than maushould(althought population bomb still hits harder than skill link tail slap so...)

also i made a post about gengar once https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ussion-teal-mask-edition.3728797/post-9911875

 

[Twilight]

Am wondering about the placements of Araquanid, Cinccino (why its considered much better than Maushold), Swampert, and the two Thundurus (IE why is Incarnate better than Therian ATM when it was the opposite just a few months ago).

Gengar on that note too, it was a C-rank mon in the DLC1 meta.

Araquanid has a defined niche as a Sticky Web setter over Ribombee due to its ability to actually beat Iron Treads 1vs1, which is usually most teams form of removal. It is not passive either as it hits extremely hard with Liquidation and has a useful defensive typing that can help with Keldeo and Greninja if not knocked down to its Focus Sash early on.

Swampert is a very mediocre Pokemon from my experience despite the buff of Knock Off. Defensively it does not actually handle a whole lot and simply gets overpowered by stuff like Scizor, Zapdos, etc. Gastro also offers competition with it having Spikes and being more reliable into Keldeo and Greninja due to Water Absorb and being better into the tier's Electric-types like Zapdos and Raikou. Perts biggest selling point is a Ground-type that can pivot imo.

Gengar is still a fairly mediocre Pokemon hence its placement but the Speed tier and STAB combo is fairly effective into a decent amount of offensive teams. Choice Scarf is a nice cleaner and NP sets can be potent breakers albeit being very reliant on Focus Blast for Garg and Ttar. AV Torn is still the biggest pain but the tier has got a lot more stronger SpA users to overwhelm it and also Static Zapdos to potentially let Gengar beat it 1vs1.

...actually, on that note, why is Thundurus-Therian all the way in C+???? I knew it got worse, but I didn't think it got that bad. Does Zapdos really outclass it that hard?

Thundurus-T just feels extremely awkward to use in this metagame and that is mostly due to the Speed tier. It is stuck in this awkward spot where it is just slower than SO much relevant Pokemon like Treads, Chomp, Keldeo, Ogerpon, etc. that it finds very few chances to switch in and reliably wallbreak. Latios is also a huge pain for standard sets especially if they have Recover. Offensive Zapdos is slower than Thundy but STAB Hurricane is a big difference in power, has reliable recovery, and the yellow colour is broken if you activate Static.

Thundy-I has the better Speed tier putting it faster than most of the above so it is valued more as a NP breaker and pivot. It also has the option of running Prankster Twave to act as an emergency response to these faster threats.

 

[Twilight]

why is necrozma so low? It has pretty great stats, a great ability and more than one dangerous set...

I didn't see this question when I answered the others. I think Necrozma is actually a decent threat and personally did vote for it to be a bit higher but the biggest issue for it is just the rise of Mandibuzz. CM sets can't touch it and have to run tera Steel or Poison to avoid being put on a timer. DD sets need Tera Blast or they just lose to Foul Play + Toxic. You could run Meteor Beam but the loss of Autotomize is notable and most Mandi are either mixed or full SpD right now. The special sets also face competition from Latios as a Psychic wallbreaker and even as a CM sweeper. This is the main reason for it being ranked so low, though personally I'd say it is good enough for at least B-

 

[Welcome to mars]

I think the cobalion ranking genuinely abit too harsh, im not saying its even remotely close to being an A+ mon
but B is in my actually unbiased opinion, not reflective of the pokemons actual viability in the tier, it provides far too much offensive and defensive utility to be in the same tier as gastrodon (which doesn’t fit on many teams, hence its b rank status)

the fall of moltres has been shocking, the tier is very hostile to it now with all the knock off users and seeing a pokemon that was once a actually important part of ou fall to the bottom of uu is painful to watch

 

[Goombatower69]

Metagross being the second highest Pseudo after CHomp is such a W for the MetaGoat.

By the way, why is Gengar so high? Everything it does is done 5 times better by something else, like Latios or Moth

 

[Goro Yagami]

I was wondering why Terrakion is ranked in A- tier, considering its non-scarf sets are mostly inferior to Ogerpon-Cornerstone (due to its speed), and its weakness to common priority such as Bullet Punch and Water Shuriken.

Scarf sets seem to be prediction reliant as well, and I feel most of the userbase hasn't fully explored the mon enough to rank it that highly.

 

[somethingaboutsomething]

also, why isnt zoroark-hisui ranked?

 

[Lily]

By the way, why is Gengar so high? Everything it does is done 5 times better by something else, like Latios or Moth

It's the best spinblocker for hyper offense, which is a pretty valuable role in a metagame with so much Iron Treads usage. What sets Gengar even further apart is its positive matchup against most Garganacl sets, which is super valuable considering how difficult busting through ID Garg can be for these offensive teams. It's definitely a specific role, but B- is accurate enough for it.

also, why isnt zoroark-hisui ranked?

It's viable in a vacuum because it's still a strong fast Ghost but the reality is it just doesn't do anything that Gengar doesn't do better, and Gengar is already fairly niche.

 

[5camp]

It's the best spinblocker for hyper offense, which is a pretty valuable role in a metagame with so much Iron Treads usage. What sets Gengar even further apart is its positive matchup against most Garganacl sets, which is super valuable considering how difficult busting through ID Garg can be for these offensive teams. It's definitely a specific role, but B- is accurate enough for it.



It's viable in a vacuum because it's still a strong fast Ghost but the reality is it just doesn't do anything that Gengar doesn't do better, and Gengar is already fairly niche.

This has confused me even further. Best spinbocker when it's weak to the primary stab of the most common spinner? Who is straight up immune to its secondary stab? And good into Garg, who resists both of its stabs? Is its viability based entirely on the ability to hit focus blast?

 

[Bluebox130]

May I ask why Okidogi is ranked quite well in B+ tier? I haven't seen many on ladder and I always thought its poison typing and low Sp. Def held it back even with an assault vest. Is it able to check or threaten other mons like Mandibuzz out or is there something I am missing?

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Why is h-lilligant so low? what is the basis of ranking a mon that is way more consistent than stall even with acc hurting it, and even with ceruledge here it often eats a couple hits or isnt that hard to make it guess if im tera ghost or just bluffing.

Victory dance puts in work against many teams as well... most counterplay gets thrown out the window and while its frail you can still setup on many mons esp by forcing them out, alo, slowking, rotom-w, quaq, empoleon, garg, azu, etc...

Even against many of the sample teams there are mons that just give it free setup or close to unless you want to gamble if it will stay in or not but that is every setup sweeper... and after one victory dance most teams just crumble and even with smth as good as okidogi it is still in 2hko range from ice spinner

+1 252 Atk Hustle Lilligant-Hisui Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Okidogi: 168-198 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Hustle Lilligant-Hisui Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Okidogi: 150-177 (39.4 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

so unless you bulk up or read the tera you are in 2hko range, god forbid i victory dance again if you are low enough and you click poison jab.

 

[Lily]

This has confused me even further. Best spinbocker when it's weak to the primary stab of the most common spinner? Who is straight up immune to its secondary stab? And good into Garg, who resists both of its stabs? Is its viability based entirely on the ability to hit focus blast?

Sorry, you're right that I should've been clearer on the set.

Gengar @ Air Balloon
Ability: Cursed Body
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 36 Def / 220 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Wave
- Focus Blast

It lives a 0 Atk Treads Knock Off (and Knock is less common these days especially on 252 Atk), outspeeds it, and does a ton with Shadow Ball/Focus Blast. It doesn't really matter that it's weak to Sludge Wave since you're faster anyway. Its purpose is not to be a hard counter to Treads - it's something you can throw in on it, ensure your hazards are staying up, and potentially make progress with.

Re: Garg, Gengar threatens every common Tera type quite heavily. It does a number to Ghost (which no longer resists Shadow Ball), 2HKOing it after a boost. It OHKOs Fairy, the most common Tera type, after a boost. It does huge damage to stuff like Water, Electric, etc - and because it's a Ghost-type it doesn't fear Body Press, so it can afford to boost in Garg's face. Even though it'll rarely actually get the kill, it's able to force out a boosted Garg in this way, which is immensely helpful in forcing it to take further hazard damage and preventing it from just soloing your team. It also obviously can bop non-Tera Garg but yeah it does have to hit Focus Blast.

Hopefully this helps clear things up.

May I ask why Okidogi is ranked quite well in B+ tier? I haven't seen many on ladder and I always thought its poison typing and low Sp. Def held it back even with an assault vest. Is it able to check or threaten other mons like Mandibuzz out or is there something I am missing?

Okidogi is a decent scarfer thanks to its great STAB Combo + Knock Off + useable Speed tier. Notably it does great damage to all common variants of CM Latios, and it can actually switch into stuff thanks to its bulk. Bulk Up variants can really sit on stuff like Garg, Mandi, Amoonguss, and Alomomola, and it's really tough to find long-term counterplay that can deal with it. It isn't the easiest thing to build with and can be awkward to use in battle but it is still very strong.

Why is h-lilligant so low? what is the basis of ranking a mon that is way more consistent than stall even with acc hurting it, and even with ceruledge here it often eats a couple hits or isnt that hard to make it guess if im tera ghost or just bluffing.

It's hard to find reasons to use Lilli-H when it's difficult to find setup turns, it's not immensely threatening even after a boost, it's strapped for moveslots, and even if you get everything to work out it's gotta deal with Hustle being Hustle. The ceiling for Lilligant is absolutely incredibly high but it just isn't a consistent Pokemon at all and there are significantly better choices for hyper offense most of the time.