[WIP] Dragonite

[Colonel M]

[Pros]
<ul>
<li>Multiscale is an awesome ability to help secure Dragonite to survive an attack. The additional bulk also helps.</li>
<li>Has access to Fire Punch, Thunder Punch, and Hurricane to help separate it from Salamence.</li>
<li>With sand only lasting 5-8 turns, it helps Dragonite immensely since it has the capability of repeatedly using Roost and Leftovers to keep Multiscale up often.</li>
<li>Weakness Policy adds to Dragonite's usable items and can make Dragonite a very intimidating threat if the opponent decides to target Dragonite with a super effective attack.</li>
</ul>

[Cons]

<ul>
<li>Sluggish. 80 base Speed is not very fast even after a Dragon Dance.</li>
<li>No access to ExtremeSpeed and Superpower really limits its capability of running an effective Choice Band set that isn't outclassed by other Dragon-types. It also hurts the Dragon Dance set slightly and affects some of its other potential movesets.</li>
<li>Permanent rain exists no more, which means Hurricane and Thunder are limited on 5-8 turns of use.</li>
<li>The addition of Fairy-types really do not help Dragonite. Mono-attack Dragonite is now much harder to pull off and it forces Dragonite to choose rather unorthodox attacks to circumvent the fear of fairies.</li>
</ul>


name: Dragon Dance
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Dragon Claw / Outrage
move 3: Thunder Punch / Fire Punch
move 4: Earthquake / Roost
ability: Multiscale
item: Weakness Policy / Lum Berry / Leftovers
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
nature: Adamant / Jolly

<ul>
<li>The standard Dragon Dance set. With Multiscale, it makes setting up Dragonite a breeze without the reliance of items such as Focus Sash or Yache Berry.</li>
<li>Dragon Claw is your best bet this time, though Outrage can still be used if you have little fear of Fairies or King's Shield Aegislash.</li>
<li>Thunder Punch takes priority in slot three because it hits two targets that otherwise wall Dragon Claw and Outrage as well as Earthquake - Togekiss and Skarmory. For an added bonus it hits Azumarill as well. Fire Punch is still a great move for Aegislash, Skarmory, and Ferrrothorn. It also hits Bronzong which otherwise walls Dragon and Ground as well.</li>
<li>Earthquake is there to hit Aegislash without activating the Attack debuff from King's Shield while also hurting Steel-types such as Metagross and Excadrill a lot harder than Fire Punch would.</li>
<li>Roost is also a viable option to add pressure onto the opponent. If Dragonite can restore to full health, it can abuse Multiscale even more than once.</li>
<li>The elemental punches can be dropped for Earthquake and Roost if you fear King's Shield Aegislash and don't have as much fear against Skarmory and Ferrothorn. </li>
<li>Adamant provides more raw power, though Jolly is useful for threats such as Mega Gengar, Jolteon, and Mega Aerodactyl.</li>
<li>The item choice is where everything gets tricky, so let's break down what each does.</li>
<ul>
<li>Weakness Policy involves the strategy of using Multiscale to help buffer Dragonite from a Super Effective attack. This allows Dragonite to have +3 Attack after a single Dragon Dance and after Weakness Policy is activated. Opt for Fire Blast over Fire Punch as it will secure the OHKO on Skarmory (after Stealth Rock) and Ferrothorn.</li>
<li>You can even run a -Def or -SpD nature alongside Draco Meteor to really screw over walls. For example, Hippowdon will not like taking a boosted Draco Meteor whatsoever. Neither will Gliscor.</li>
<li>On the other hand, status is a serious issue for setup sweepers. Dragonite is no exception. Thanks to Lum Berry, this allows Dragonite to continue a sweep if it was burnt or put to sleep, or even confusion from Outrage.</li>
<li>Finally, Leftovers really plays well with keeping Dragonite healthy. With the combination of Multiscale, Roost, and Leftovers it can create a hell of a time just trying to take down Dragonite.</li>
</ui>
</ul>

[Checks and Counters]

 

[Colonel M]

Just going to copy Ezio's thread for now, but here I will discuss what I am looking into / possibly adding.

- Weakness Policy as an item should be added in Dragon Dance set(s). Lum Berry, Leftovers, and Life Orb should still get a mention.
- Set order is going to be different from what is listed above:

- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw / Outrage
- Earthquake
- ThunderPunch / Fire Punch / Roost

To me, EQ is always a must for Dragonite. With the addition of Aegislash and, soon to come, Heatran - Dragon / Ground offers fairly consistent coverage. There are three main Pokemon that resist or are downright immune to the set (Togekiss, Skarmory, and Bronzong) - two of which that are trapped via Magnezone.

ThunderPunch is before Fire Punch for a couple of reasons. First, the most common Fairy-types are as follows:

- Klefki
- Togekiss
- Clefable
- Azumarill

Two of the three lose to ThunderPunch and Klefki is already rolling over to EQ. I guess we could count Carbink in the list too, but still is weak to EQ. Clefable would be one of the only Fairy-types that really requires Dragonite to look outside of its standard movepool to take down (...yay Steel Wing?).

- Rain sets are really limbo at the moment. With Politoed only bringing a reduced amount of turns of rain now, STAB Hurricane isn't as appealing. Still, it is STAB, has 70% Accuracy, and is annoying as shit to deal with. Hell, Dragonite is so bulky it could produce the rain for all it cares. It has the movepool to abuse rain after all (Thunder, STAB Hurricane, Surf, Aqua Tail / Waterfall) while still retaining its health if it lacks Leftovers (Roost). I'm not opposed to testing it.

- Agility seems okay; especially with Weakness Policy. I will test this one out.
- Choice Band / Specs / Scarf seem decent. Scarf is probably a "no" unless QC thinks otherwise - I think Salamence has the upper hand there with Moxie and more Speed.
- Mixed set is probably going to stay out for now. Dragonite is missing E-Speed and Superpower (unless suddenly it can be bred via another Pokemon aside from Dratini).
- Parashuffler or whatever the set is / was seems worthy of a test. Probably not an auto-addition, but still annoying as shit with MultiScale.

Any other comments / suggestions are appreciated by everyone.

 

[Cloudz]

What about extremespeed? There are so many priority pokemon running around this gen and dragonite wouldnt appreciate that extra damage. (Ice shards, bulletpunches, sucker punches, fake out)

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

What about extremespeed? There are so many priority pokemon running around this gen and dragonite wouldnt appreciate that extra damage. (Ice shards, bulletpunches, sucker punches, fake out)

Illegal until Pokebank

 

[Colonel M]

Wrote up Dragon Dance. This is what I evaluated so far but Quality Control has freedom to tell me "add it" or "subtract it".

- Choice Band. The lack of ExtremeSpeed and Superpower limit its strengths to keep it useful. Salamence, Haxorus, and Garchomp pull off the Choice Band set better in my opinion. They're faster, one has Mold Breaker Earthquake, one has Moxie, and the one has STAB Earthquake. I don't think it's worth adding.
- Definitely no on Choice Scarf.
- Rain sets are definitely worthy of testing and I am contemplating on what to consider and what not to consider. The lack of Superpower is fine on the mixed set to an extent, but if the rain suddenly stops Dragonite is really fucked over.
- Multiscale Shuffler seems weak now that Fairies exist. It's harder to shuffle things around when you can't hit them.
- Has anyone ever used a Tank Dragonite set!?!
- Agility looks promising. I'm actually serious - Weakness Policy really is the key unfortunately.

Hide

- Agility
- Dragon Claw / Outrage
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast

Okay, the deal is that you obviously get hit by a super effective attack while setting up Agility. Believe it or not, this thing actually has a lot of power behind it. Take a look at just how scary Draco Meteor is for example:

Dragonite's Draco Meteor vs Hippowdon (366 - 432 HP) Damage: 87.14% - 102.86%

That's no investment for Dragonite and Hippowdon carrying max HP / 0 SpD.

Fire Blast also does nicely:

Dragonite's Fire Blast vs Aegislash (222 - 262 HP) Damage: 68.52% - 80.86%

While not OHKOing Aegislash, it's enough damage to likely KO it if it's softened up a bit.

I don't think I really need to do calcs with Dragon Claw but just in case:

Dragonite's Dragon Claw vs Gliscor (243 - 286 HP) Damage: 68.64% - 80.79%

Max HP / 0 Def Gliscor. The only thing that it's really conveying is that it should KO Pokemon that aren't heavily invested in Def and are worn out slightly (Stealth Rock is your friend).

I will also mention that spinners are huge for Dragonite as well as Stealth Rock. Spikes is also a helpful entry hazard for Dragonite too.

If anyone has tested ANY rain set please let me know. Same with Agility.

Overall, I think all the rain sets should not exist. Unless someone has had success with them, they look bad now that rain isn't around forever.

 

[Trinitrotoluene]

for the dragon dance set, wouldn't it be better to put the 4 leftover evs into defense than hp? iirc, 4 hp evs means that dragonite takes more passive damage per turn than one with no hp evs. i already know that dragonite isn't supposed to be taking passive damage in the first place, but it may come in handy if dragonite gets hit by a stray toxic / takes sand or hail damage as it sets up.

 

[Colonel M]

for the dragon dance set, wouldn't it be better to put the 4 leftover evs into defense than hp? iirc, 4 hp evs means that dragonite takes more passive damage per turn than one with no hp evs. i already know that dragonite isn't supposed to be taking passive damage in the first place, but it may come in handy if dragonite gets hit by a stray toxic / takes sand or hail damage as it sets up.

Yeah, agreeing with you here. Especially if you run Roost with Dragon Dance.

Will add this in. I think I'm turning down all Rain sets. Except either maybe Mixed or something that sets up rain, and the latter I tested was really rocky.

Expect progress around Friday.

 

[Colonel M]

Sorry about the lack of updates. I'm hoping that I can get on this one since Aero is practically "done".

Though no one has posted anything on Dragonite either... which perplexes me.

 

[flamewizzy21]

My favorite item on Dragonite is by far the Yache Berry. I don't know why the 4x ice weakness lures people like sirens to the rocks but the first hit my Dragonite takes is almost always ice.

Anyway, in my experience with Dragonite, the set you posted (Dragon Dance, Dragon Claw, Earthquake, Fire Punch) works fantastically (just as before). I personally like the Firepunch more than Thunderpunch because my team has bigger issues with Ferrothorns, Scizors, and Grass types than Fairies, but I understand your logic for Thunderpunch. Versus Azumarill, though, Azumarill is most dangerous when he's belly-drummed, at which point he should be low enough to EQ anyway [EDIT: LOL NO]. I haven't done calculations, but I think Dragonite might be able to survive an unboosted Play Rough to the face.

I tried changing Dragon Dance to Roost and my Dragonite suddenly became useless and easily walled. I also don't recommend Outrage since it locks you into a move where the enemy can just switch in a fairy and set up for free (the OP made a note about this concern, and I just wanted to agree more strongly on the cautionary side).

 

[CalDW19940]

I've always ran a Dragonite with slightly mixed defences and a lum berry to improve his chances of tanking one ice move to make him fast enough from a Dragon Dance to kill the attacker buuut main issue with this is lacking a 1hko to finish them off.

I was thinking of running safeguard baton passer to cover lack of lum berry into Dragonite to make things a bit easier to switch in with say a Yache berry and be able to get a more decent boost. Thoughts on if this would be viable?

 

[SOMALIA]

Agreeing that the shuffler and rain sets should not be included for the reasons you mentioned. However I feel
that tpunch isnt worth losing out to hitting skarmory, bronzong, ferrothorn, forretress and air balloon exca. Togekiss is a great counter to dragon types and id rather do solid damage to a wider range of relevant Pokemon then try too hard to hurt Togekiss. Azumarill is still going to take an Earthquake.

 

[flamewizzy21]

Agreeing that the shuffler and rain sets should not be included for the reasons you mentioned. However I feel
that tpunch isnt worth losing out to hitting skarmory, bronzong, ferrothorn, forretress and air balloon exca. Togekiss is a great counter to dragon types and id rather do solid damage to a wider range of relevant Pokemon then try too hard to hurt Togekiss. Azumarill is still going to take an Earthquake.

Yeah I played an Azumarill the other day too. He didn't even Belly Drum, he just Played Rough until Dragonite dropped. Even then, He would have still survived if he had half health from Belly Drum (I did significantly less than 50% HP dmg, probably around 30-40%?). This is from a Dragonite with maxed out Attack. I will admit that Thunderpunch would be much better in this scenario.

I also ran into problems with Cloyster switching into Dragonite, and dropping the SkillLinked IcicleSpear without ShellSmash (I learned that day multihit attacks only apply YacheBerry/MultiScale on the first hit, poor Dragonite). Thunderpunch might be a better idea in that scenario too.

 

[Ranevski]

tpunch isnt worth losing out to hitting skarmory, bronzong, ferrothorn, forretress and air balloon exca. Togekiss is a great counter to dragon types and id rather do solid damage to a wider range of relevant Pokemon then try too hard to hurt Togekiss. Azumarill is still going to take an Earthquake.

ThunderPunch is slashed with FirePunch for this very reason, but I 100% agree with Colonel that TPunch should be the primary slash.

The most common checks to Dragonite are Togekiss, Azumarill, and to a lesser extent Skarmory. Thunderpunch hits the first two hard enough to actually score the OHK on squishy variants after a DD, or can 2HK the 252hp variants by attacking on the switch instead of Dancing. Thunderpunch happens to also deal identical damage to Skarmory as Fire Punch would. Aside from this Earthquake can still hit Ferrothorn and Forretress for neutral on the switch in (albeit badly). You can DClaw Excadrills to break the balloon before setting up, and frankly I see them often using EBelt/LOrb now at high ratings because they need it to ensure the OHK on bulky Rotom-W. Bronzong doesn't exist.

To be clear I'm not trying to make out like FirePunch doesn't help Dragonite immensely, it does. What I am certain of is that the desire for FirePunch doesn't come up nearly as much as the desire for Thunderpunch. The fact that Dragonite so badly desires FirePunch as a 4th attack on the DD set is exactly why I think it's grossly overrated this generation. I basically never see it above 2k but I see it plenty below.

 

[SOMALIA]

ThunderPunch is slashed with FirePunch for this very reason, but I 100% agree with Colonel that TPunch should be the primary slash.

The most common checks to Dragonite are Togekiss, Azumarill, and to a lesser extent Skarmory. Thunderpunch hits the first two hard enough to actually score the OHK on squishy variants after a DD, or can 2HK the 252hp variants by attacking on the switch instead of Dancing. Thunderpunch happens to also deal identical damage to Skarmory as Fire Punch would. Aside from this Earthquake can still hit Ferrothorn and Forretress for neutral on the switch in (albeit badly). You can DClaw Excadrills to break the balloon before setting up, and frankly I see them often using EBelt/LOrb now at high ratings because they need it to ensure the OHK on bulky Rotom-W. Bronzong doesn't exist.

To be clear I'm not trying to make out like FirePunch doesn't help Dragonite immensely, it does. What I am certain of is that the desire for FirePunch doesn't come up nearly as much as the desire for Thunderpunch. The fact that Dragonite so badly desires FirePunch as a 4th attack on the DD set is exactly why I think it's grossly overrated this generation. I basically never see it above 2k but I see it plenty below.

You are correct, thanks

 

[flamewizzy21]

You are correct, thanks

I changed my Dragonite from Firepunch to Thunderpunch. It was a good idea.