Zygarde [QC 0/3]

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[OVERVIEW]
* Zygarde is one of the bulkiest Pokemon in the tier
* It mostly plays the role of a physical tank in balance teams and is able to check a phletora of threatening physical attackers, thanks to its sky high HP stats and decent Defense stats
*Alternately, Zygarde can also opt for an offensive set which works well with T-spikes support.
*However, Zygarde's mediocre special defense stats combined with its immense weakness to ice makes it quite underwhelming against strong special attackers such as Primal Kyogre and Xerneas.
*These flaws are further exploited given the fact that Zygarde has to stay in its mediocre 50'/, forme , lose a certain amount of HP before gaining access to its complete forme.

[SET]
Name: Physically Defensive
Move 1: Glare/Sleep Talk
Move 2: Dragon Tail/Sleep Talk
Move 3: Rest
Move 4: Thousand Arrows
Item: Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
Nature: Impish
Evs: 252 HP/4 Atk/252 Def

[SET COMMENTS]

Moves
========
*Glare allows Zygarde to paralyse offensive threats such as Primal Groudon and speed oriented sweepers, faltering their effectiveness.
*Because of Glare, no offensive threats are able to switch into Zygarde safely without the fear of being paralysed
*Dragon Tail is used for phazing setup sweepers such as Mega Salamence and dual dance Primal Groudon.
*Rest when paired with Sleep Talk, provides reliable recovery for Zygarde and frees it from status conditions.
*Sleep Talk prevents Zygarde from becoming overly passive during sleep turns and works great with it; as against physical attackers there is almost no difference between scoring Glare or Dragon Tail.
*Thousand arrows is Zygarde's best choice for an offensive move and enables it to hit Mega Gengar, Primal Groudon and Ho-oh hard.

Set Details
==========
* Maximum HP and Defense investment, combined with an impish nature maximizes Zygarde's physical bulk, allowing it survive a boosted Precipice Blade from Primal Groudon at 50'/, forme, activating Power Construct.
*Maximum physical bulk also makes it impossible to 1HKO Zygarde-C at full health without attack boosts.
*4 Atk Evs are used to boost the power of Dragon Tail and Thousand Arrows slightly, giving it at least some sort of offensive presence.
*Leftovers provides a sort of recovery for Zygarde and fits well due to the set's defensive nature.
*Power Construct is mandatory for Zygarde to transform into its complete forme.

Usage Tips
==========
* When using Zygarde, try to utilize Glare to favour your team and cripple opposing attackers.
* Attempt to activate Power Construct as early in the game as possible. Power construct activates based on Zygarde's HP at the end of the turn. Due to this, it is advisable to sometimes not rest off the damage in order to activate Power Construct.
* Zygarde has to be careful of unexpected HP Ice, which is run by some sets of Primal Groudon and Marshadow. Play cautiously around these Pokemons and attempt to scout for HP Ice.
*Due to the nature of Sleep Talk and being a Ground type, Zygarde can be used as a counter-play to webs offense that rely on Smeargle to get webs up. Either crippling it with Glare or phazing it out for a safe switch in for a defogger.

Team Options
============
* Primal Kyogre appreciates Glare support from Zygarde and its ability to check strong physical attackers, something which Primal Kyogre struggles in.
* Hex Mega Gengar also makes a good partner to this set, as it is able to take advantage of the status support by Zygarde.
* Mega Gengar in turn helps Zygarde against fairy types such as Xerneas and Arceus Fairy.
* Scarf Yveltal when paired with Zygarde is able to get rid of almost all suicide leads in hyper offense teams. Crippling them with glare and dealing a huge chunk of damage with Dragon Tail and U-turn.
* Hex Giratina O is a potential partner, however Mega Gengar is better as a hex user.

[SET]
name: Offensive Dragon Dance
Move 1: Thousand Arrows
Move 2: Dragon Dance
Move 3: Substitute
Move 4: Dragon Tail/Extreme Speed
Item: Groundium Z
Ability: Power Construct
Nature:Adamant
Evs: 10 HP/252 Atk/246 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========
* Thousand Arrows is Zygarde's best offensive move. Enabling it to hit Primal Groudon and Defensive Dusk Mane hard
* Dragon Dance turns Zygarde into a threatening setup sweeper. A boosted Tectonic Rage is able to 1HK0 most variants of Xerneas and any variants of Arceus Fairy.
* Substitute is offensive Zygarde most valuable aspect as it abuses the nature of Power Construct, protects Zygarde against status conditions and overall acts as a shield against Ice and Fairy-type attacks.
* Dragon Tail is the only reliable physical dragon STAB Zygarde has access to and is able to phaze Pokemon that tries to setup on Zygarde.
* Extreme Speed is an alternate option for Dragon Tail. However due to the fact that there is not much stuff to hit with it, Dragon Tail is better overall.


Set Details
========
* Maximum attack investment with an Adamant nature puts a lot of power behind Zygarde's attack after a Dragon Dance boost.
* 246 speed Investment ensures it outspeeds Marshadow, Mega Salamence, Xerneas, Mewtwo, Deoxys A and all Arceus formes after a boost.
* The rest are dumped into HP to increase Zygarde's overall bulk.
* Groundium Z is mandatory for this set, as a boosted Tectonic Rage is able to remove key threats to Zygarde.

Usage Tips
========
* Zygarde is best used in teams with T-spikes support, as it is able to stall out threats such as Arceus Fairy until it is under KO range by Thousand Arrows, saving Tectonic Rage for another threat.
* Zygarde is mostly used as an early-mid game sweeper, punching holes into teams with boosted Tectonic Rage and strong attacks, opening room for its team mates to sweep late game.
* While using offensive Zygarde, keep in mind that it is not as bulky as its defensive set, so it is unable to switch in as well into strong attackers.
* It is advisable to utilise Substitute in order to activate Power Construct.

Team Options
========
* Zygarde appreciates T-spikes support from Pokemons like Toxapex and Cloyster, as it is able to make full use of toxic damage with the aid of Substitute.
* Late game cleaners such as Mega Gengar and Dual Dance Primal Groudon likes Zygarde ability to weaken foes enough for them to sweep late game.
* Fairy-types such as Xerneas likes Zygarde's ability to check Steel and Poison types, opening room for them to sweep.
* Priority users such as Extreme Killer Arceus or Marshadow are potential partner as they appreciates Zygarde ability to punch holes in teams, thus opening room for them to sweep.
* Steel-types such as Dusk Mane Necrozma and Magearna are able to aid Zygarde in dealing with fairy-types and offers more reliable ways to check Fairy-types.
* U-turn support from Pokemon like Mega Scizor aids Zygarde in getting free switch-ins, creating space for it to setup.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============
* There is an offensive Zygarde set that utilises Coil instead of Dragon Dance. However it is easily forced out by Marshadow due to it being faster than Zygarde and the nature of Spectral Thief bypassing substitute.
* Another Zygarde set is the utilisation of Outrage and Dragonium Z, dealing heavy damage to Ground immunes such as Yveltal. However this set loses the option to KO fairy-types.

Checks and Counters
==================
* Primal Kyogre -- Against Defensive Zygarde Primal Kyogre is able to 1HKO it with Ice Beam due to its absurdly high special attack. However it does not like being paralysed by Zygarde. Against offensive Zygarde, Primal Kyogre can set up a Subtitute of its own and threaten to 1HKO it with Ice Beam.
* Fairy-types -- Arceus Fairy and Geomancy Xerneas are able to 1HKO defensive Zygarde's 50'/, forme, thanks to their high special attack and gifts in Pixie Plate and Fairy Aura respectively. They are also able to use defensive Zygarde as a setup fodder, however they do not like being paralysed.
* Ice Coverage -- Due to Zygarde's crippling weakness to Ice. Threats that it usually checks such as Marshadow and Primal Groudon sometimes run Hidden Power Ice to cripple Zygarde. Thus, Zygarde cannot effectively check both without knowing the full extent of their sets. Furthermore Arceus Ground and Arceus Water are frequent users of Ice Beam, both are able to 1HKO Zygarde 50% forme.
* Faster Dragon Types -- Although rare, Palkia, Kyurem W and Rayquaza are able to make use of Zygarde lack of reliable dragon stab and are able to 1HKO its 50'/, forme with ease.
* Strong Special Attackers-- Due to Zygarde's mediocre special defense, strong special attackers such as Choice Specs Yveltal, Mega Mewtwo Y and Mega Gengar are able to take advantage of Zygarde's mediocre 50'/, forme and deal heavy damage. However they must be careful not to activate Power Construct.
* Bulky Phazers -- Phazers such as whirlwind Lugia are able to prevent offensive Zygarde from setting up.
 
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Hey, I'm not a QC member, but I just wanted to leave my opinion here.

Thousand Arrows is indispensable on Zygarde-C in my opinion. The nullification of Flying-type of Celesteela and Ho-oh is beneficial for obvious reasons and some of these 'mons sometimes run Substitute which completely leaves Zygarde with Dragon Tail as the only attacking move practically useless. Also it lets Zygarde threaten Mega Gengar which otherwise traps and tortures it every time it uses Rest.
 
Hey, I'm not a QC member, but I just wanted to leave my opinion here.

Thousand Arrows is indispensable on Zygarde-C in my opinion. The nullification of Flying-type of Celesteela and Ho-oh is beneficial for obvious reasons and some of these 'mons sometimes run Substitute which completely leaves Zygarde with Dragon Tail as the only attacking move practically useless. Also it lets Zygarde threaten Mega Gengar which otherwise traps and tortures it every time it uses Rest.
The main purpose of defensive Zygarde is not to directly check physical offensive threats but to cripple them with glare and phaze them with dragon tail for a team mate to do the work.Mega Gengar cant assure a safe switch in to Zygarde due to the fear of being Glare or hit by Dragon Tail.
 
The main purpose of defensive Zygarde is not to directly check physical offensive threats but to cripple them with glare and phaze them with dragon tail for a team mate to do the work.Mega Gengar cant assure a safe switch in to Zygarde due to the fear of being Glare or hit by Dragon Tail.
Sorry, but you’re wrong. Thousand Arrows is a defining trait of Zygarde, even with its defensive set. It shouldn’t be slashed with anything, as it’s required to not lose vs Celesteela, Ho-Oh, and Primal Groudon. How is Zygarde supposed to stop any of these if they’re the last Pokémon on the opposing team? Dragon Tail does nothing for it in this scenario.

It’s Sleep Talk that should be the secondary option, as Zygarde-C is bulky enough to not really care about waiting a couple of turns to move, and it should be slashed with Glare or Dragon Tail, not Thousand Arrows. It should also at least have a mention in the Overview, as it’s criminal not to talk about one of the best offensive moves in the game there.
 
Sorry, but you’re wrong. Thousand Arrows is a defining trait of Zygarde, even with its defensive set. It shouldn’t be slashed with anything, as it’s required to not lose vs Celesteela, Ho-Oh, and Primal Groudon. How is Zygarde supposed to stop any of these if they’re the last Pokémon on the opposing team? Dragon Tail does nothing for it in this scenario.

It’s Sleep Talk that should be the secondary option, as Zygarde-C is bulky enough to not really care about waiting a couple of turns to move, and it should be slashed with Glare or Dragon Tail, not Thousand Arrows. It should also at least have a mention in the Overview, as it’s criminal not to talk about one of the best offensive moves in the game there.
Defensive Zygarde has too low of an attack to do heavy damage to other physical attackers, Dragon Tail almost does the same damage(With the exception of Mega Lucario) and with the benefit of phazing setup sweepers

4 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 132-156 (34.4 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 132-156 (32.7 - 38.7%) -- 97.9% chance to 3HKO
4 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lucario-Mega: 218-258 (77.5 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

The importance of Glare and Dragon Tail far outweights that of Thousand Arrows in defensive sets. By removing Glare, Zygarde loses the ability to cripple speed oriented attackers. Such a benefit is greatly better than what thousand arrows can offer. Dragon Tail is needed to phaze physical sweepers like dual dance groudon, in that case thousand arrows fail to do enough damage to kill groudon

+2 248+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 346-408 (82.3 - 97.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 358-422 (85.2 - 100.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

However offensive Zygarde is a different story as it utilises Thousand Arrows with maximum attack investment and a boosting move.
 

Ropalme1914

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On the DD set, 76 HP should probably be better, since that way you can reach Complete forme after 2 Substitutes (current spread leaves you at 50% forme with 51% HP, which most of the time will not help you at all since there are not many things that only Zygarde-50% can outspeed at +1).
Dragon Tail I also think that could be at least on OO instead of Stone Edge since you already can beat some Ho-Oh, still can do damage to Salamence that can try to setup on you, and beats other phazers like Lugia lacking Ice Beam and physical Giratina.
I'm not QC so you don't need to make those changes, but I think that those are valid.
 

Minority

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Unslash Thousand Arrows on the defensive set or this is being rejected. Very rarely can a defensive Zygarde-C justify not using this move, thus the slashing should reflect this.

I'm not convinced by the Speed investment on DD Zygarde-C. As Zygarde-50% you meet most of the benchmarks you want, but that isn't true if you're at +1 in Zygarde-C. In this state you're slower than Deoxys-A, Mega Gengar, Mewtwo, Ultra Necrozma, Shaymin-S, and even Marshadow. You're giving up all of that to, in your analysis' words "increase Zygarde's overall bulk". That's not good enough. Justify why these 76 HP EVs are so critical that its worthing being slower than all those aforementioned threats. If that's not possible, then you should be running the Speed to beat those.

Implement these changes and then I'll be able to post a full check.
 

Ropalme1914

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I think that the best spread (which is the one that I use) would be 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe with 30 HP IVs. Current spread ties with standard Mega Mewtwo Y when at Complete forme at +1, and 4 points of HP won't make much difference for Zygarde (again, HP IVs just to make the HP divisible by 4 and be able to reach Complete after 2 Subs). You also get outsped by other Zygarde and Adamant Rayquaza instead of having a Speed tie against them for an extra bulk that won't make any real difference.
 
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Do you have something against Thousand Arrows?

Minority told you to not have Thousand Arrows slashed with anything on the defensive set, as it's practically a required move on it and all Zygarde-C sets.

I'd still mention Thousand Arrows somewhere in the overview, as like I said in my original post, it's an important move for both sets, and it's one of its traits that lets it stand out from the rest of the tier. Being able to hit the entire tier with one Ground STAB shouldn't be overlooked.

This should also be mentioned in the moves section of the DD set where you talk about Thousand Arrows. Why is it really Zygarde's best offensive option? An inexperienced player who's just learning to play this game would ask, "why not just use Earthquake since it's 10 BP stronger?" If it were to just "hit Primal Groudon and Dusk Mane hard", then Earthquake would be the "better" option. We both know why that's not the case, but these Smogon Dex pages need to be as descriptive as possible, as they're supposed to be helpful resources for those trying to learn the ins and outs of various Pokemon.
 
While this is far from the worst situation I've seen an analysis in, I do believe that there are a lot of things ranging from nitpicks to larger content changes that would require pointing out and explaining to the point that it is too big of a time investment for a proper QC check. It seems there has already been weird things pointed out by other users as an issue prior to me looking at this which doesn't help my view on it.

Zygarde is one of the more important mons in the tier and this means my standards for quality on its analysis is higher. I think its best if you start with lower ranked Pokemon and work your way up. The effort is appreciated though, and with practice I think you will learn fast enough, so don't be discouraged.

QC Rejected 1/3
 

ckw

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Yeah the intial quality of this analysis isn't up my standards. You haven't tried to edit anything and fix the skeleton after Nayrz's post.

Fixing this would involve me posting a qc check almost as long itself. There's too much work here and it would easier to hand this over to someone with more experience. Sorry but feel free to try something you have more experience with!

QC Rejected 2/3
 
yeah in agreement with the qc team to hand this over to a more experienced writer. the quality isn't up to par but i do agree with you on some things like slashing thousand arrows. after all if you're intending to run rest + sleep talk and your team wants glare, zyg has to give up thousand arrows or it is trapped by gothitelle etc so giving up arrows is sometimes needed on status sets. you did have some good stuff there so don't feel discouraged, it would just require too many edits for me to check this.

QC Rejected 3/3
 
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