CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 6.5 (BST Spillover)

[Dane]

They take half damage from it. That would be base 90 damage from Fire Blast. Also, if I recall the only thing HP Ground really hits harder than HP rock that would be a threat is Heatran, who still takes neutral damage from Rock. Dragons would take Base 140 from Rock.

The chance that you don't carry a Flying attack on a given team is high, and most users of Rock attacks don't like switching or staying in on this.

If you fear it, you'll run either flying, poison, or rock attacks on at least one Pokemon. You can't just hope your team remains unchanged, otherwise CAP isn't doing a very good job of changing the metagame.

 

[Time Mage]

If you fear it, you'll run either flying, poison, or rock attacks on at least one Pokemon. You can't just hope your team remains unchanged, otherwise CAP isn't doing a very good job of changing the metagame.

Besides, both Syclant and Revenankh are weak to flying. I think that on the CAP server, flying-typed attacks are really appealing right now.

 

[tennisace]

is it too late to post a spread, because i was almost done with mine yesterday but my computer crashed. since im on my wii right now ill post my reasoning if chosen. the spread: 115/69/100/101/94/66=545. sorry if its too late everyone.

 

[Karrot]

Good afternoon.

Generally, you want this to be more defensive than special defensive, because this actually takes little damage from special attacks already. Generally, you don't have to invest much to make this a god at walling water, grass, and electric types. Keeping its special defense low allows for its more reasonable counters to beat it easily.

I Haven't seen any counter discussion, but please list some Bulky fire types that could switch in and pose an immediate threat.

Two of my posts above this one, among the posts of several significant others, were discussing counters, a very important thing that the other CAPs lacked much of. I'd take the time to read them (they start at the beginning of page six with a bit on page five if you use the forum default). If you allow Flash Fire, all of the random, BL fire Pokemon cannot switch in (not including Heatran) and thus we limit the metagame.

*Nods head until All that aside, 100 HP/120 Def isn't too devastating, but higher HP instead of defense would most likely balance that out.*

Thing is, if we make it have more HP, then it's more bulky in general. I'll run calcs, but if we increse the HP we're gonna end up with a fat shit of a Hariyama type thing that's fatter then Steelicks.

We would want to make it more bulky in general, as we have decided that we should have mixed defenses (which doesn't necessarily mean they have to be absolutely balanced). By using more Defense or Special Defense than HP, you are making it less bulky to a certain point. I think Mekkah's spread shows good reasoning to this.

lmao HP:Rock, just give it power Gem. It clearly can use it and wants HP Ice.

I predicted the increase of fire type usage when this thing is finally finished. Thus, HP: Rock comes to use so it can hit both fire types and the flying dragons. Makes sense, right?

By the way, I don't think anyone would dare use more than three attacks as this thing definitely needs some sort of recovery (even Protect). Also, having it make use of Hidden Power instead of specific attacks is what we need to do to balance it. It already gets a powerful STAB combination in Fire/Grass.

I think most people will agree with my reasoning? (Actually, I'm not sure, lol.)

 

[The.Lost.Hylian]

If there is one thing about Pokemon that really irks me, it would be the inclusion of Hidden Power. Sure, it's a nice move to help cover your weaknesses. But, so many Pokemon rely on it, and I don't understand really why Hidden Power is so widespread when it comes to what Pokemon can learn it (which is almost all 498). Hidden Power removed a big portion of "team unity". Instead of forcing you to make a balanced team to cover your weaknesses, almost 50% of all Pokemon that use some sort of offense will use Hidden Power. It seems like the crutch move, and it really bothers me. I wish HP wasn't accessible to nearly every Pokemon in the game :\

 

[Karrot]

Yeah, Hidden Power is a strange move. It limits the metagame, and at the same time expands it. We've seen how powerful it can be in GSC with Zapdos and Raikou. If anyone here has a memory of GSC (I'm sure you do, kholdstaire), the debate of Hidden Power of legendary Pokemon had extremely mixed feelings. It proved, I think, that Hidden Power should either be allowed or banned altogether.

GSC gave us many amazing things, including Skarmory, Blissey, and Hidden Power.

 

[Aki]

Warning: Long post.

Mekkah's Spread:----120 / 65 / 106 / 90 / 95 / 60
Lord Gloom's spread: 105 / 72 / 95 / 115 / 79 / 70
Aki's Spread:--------110 / 70 / 120 / 100 / 100 / 45

Tangrowth's Spread: 100 / 100 / 125 / 110 / 50 / 50

Is anyone else seeing this turning out like a Tangrowth except with more special defense, and much better typing to hurt those steels that totally wall it?

If you look at Tangrowths counters section here you can see that alot of his counters rely on destroying him with fire (See Specsmence). Salamence intimidates Tangrowth and destroys him with Fire Blasts. Intimidate won't do much to this poke, neither will fire blasts. Admittedly this new pokemon can't hurt it back though unless it carries HP Ice.

Steels that totally walled Tangrowth, such as Skarmory or Bronzong, are gonna be totally destroyed by Fire Blast, and Weezing isn't going to like taking STAB Fire BLasts in it's face on it's 70 SpDef when it's coming off a proposed 100+ SpAtk, especially if it get's a sun boost.

"Other grassers" will be destroyed by the Fire typing too.

Not to mention Tangrowth can't fire off some awesome special STAB's from a pretty damn high SpAtk stat - the only proper attacking option Tangrowth has is Power Whip. I can see this getting a lot more, and stat up moves.

Oh wow, we're gonna go cry, bitch and fucking weep over Tangrowth's demise.

Hang on, People said the same for Dusknoir.

Hang on, No-one uses Noir anyway.

Hang on, This would be better then Tangrowth.

Hang on, No-one uses tangrowth anyway.

And everyone who previously used Tangrowth can switch to the new CAP, or use the SD Set.

^ Wow...it kinda does, but we can't all save a Pokemon's job just because it has similar stats (In referance to Zakkusu's post)

Okay, be prepare for the stat poll, which is coming in a few hours or so. Still haven't haven't heard word from Cooper, Deck Knight(?), and [d.a.r.k.i.e](?) about stat spreads yet, but I have spreads from the rest. I'll look through every page of both BST to see if I missed anything. How many damn options can a damn preference poll have? O_o

LatinoHeat - Got
Aldaron - Got
Time Mage - Same with A-Ron
Deck Knight - Not sure, most likely replace.
Mekkah - Got
[.darkie] - Waiting.
Dane - Got
Hyra - Got
Cooper - Most likely replace.
Fishin - Got

I'm not on there? BIAS I SAY!

I revise my statement. Growth is fine since it's only +1.

Good.

Heatran doesn't get Grass Knot, nor are its defenses as good as what's typically proposed for this pokemon (303 vs approx 320). Also, Heatran only has one usable STAB whereas this pokemon has two, and they offer excellent type coverage. HP rock will cover most of the potential counters with HP ice getting everything else bar Heatran itself.

this is Why Hidden power grass and dragon pulse are suggested on the specs set :happybrain:

To sum up, all those waters that would come in on Heatran are now useless, and dragons are in no better shape because of the threat of HP ice. Tentacruel may be neutral or resist on everything, but it's still taking BP 120 on Grass Knot.

Togekiss :happybrain: And since when does heatran's counters dissappear? O_o


Tyranitar can't switch in on any grass attack this pokemon has and is easily out sped by every spread but yours. That's a point in your favor, but only if your spread is picked.
Weavile can't switch in, and hits neutral on everything but the Aerial Ace it might be carrying.
HP ice takes care of the rest.

*Takes a bow*


Gengar can't take switches at all, not to mention Sludge Bomb is a lame move under any other circumstances.
Do you know how many pokemon get Power Gem?
-Persian 65 SAtk
-Starmie 100 SAtk, better off as rapid spinner with boltbeam
-Ampharos 115 SAtk, probably slower at 55 Spd
-Corsola 65 SAtk and STAB, slower at 35 Spd, no defenses to speak of
-Sableye 65 SAtk, probably slower at 50 Spd, pitiful defenses
-Grumpig 90 SAtk, better off walling but only UU at that
-Vespiqueen 80 SAtk, slower at 40 Spd
Ancientpower isn't much better.

Need more power gem then.

I said I wanted it less than 120. So did you.
I want it <110 actually

One thing I wanted to note regarding stat spreads is that it makes sense for at least one defensive stat to be fairly low. The chance that you don't carry a Flying attack on a given team is high, and most users of Rock attacks don't like switching or staying in on this. This won't be hit SE a lot, so ideally we want it to have some sort of weak point rather than being fairly durable on both sides. As is, there are hardly any defensive Pokemon that really threaten this, so again, having a weak point somewhere makes this more easily revenge-killed, which is important since it's very difficult to actually counter.

Which is why we should let T-tar outspeed this, because it can then pose an immediate threat with Stone edge.

As for the SE issue, think Revenankh. Think Cresselia. This lends itself to a mixed wall/Wall counter. Most Mixed walls are not hit weak all the time.

This thing screams TOGEKISS COME IN AND AIR SLASH ME PLZPLZPLZ, Btw.

I chose defense as the somewhat lower stat for mine since Grass/Fire has more useful resistances on the special side and I wanted Duggy (and Snorlax) to pose a threat, but special could work since obviously Bliss is going to be the #1 switch into most special attackers.
Oh, lets just make this so useless on one defense that DUGGY Can come in and snipe it out =\

is it too late to post a spread, because i was almost done with mine yesterday but my computer crashed. since im on my wii right now ill post my reasoning if chosen. the spread: 115/69/100/101/94/66=545. sorry if its too late everyone.
Nice, but take some outta Speed (4) and put it into SpD. 4 at the very least.

In that regard, I see my spread as the most unique here for the fact that it's over all less defensively balanced and more offensively oriented on a whole. Honestly though, in the end, it's all going to come down to what speed we like. Do we want Tyranitar to outspeed it, or vice versa? Or, like in my case, do we want it to be a competition as to who beats who?
Then not only have we made yet ANOTHER Sweeper, then we've let it outspeed and 2KO on the switch the nuber 2 switchin: T-Tar.

Good afternoon.

Actually good morning here.

Generally, you want this to be more defensive than special defensive, because this actually takes little damage from special attacks already. Generally, you don't have to invest much to make this a god at walling water, grass, and electric types. Keeping its special defense low allows for its more reasonable counters to beat it easily.

Keep defense higher than SpD, but don't let the SpD Drop below 90 at the very least without a fat hp.


Two of my posts above this one, among the posts of several significant others, were discussing counters, a very important thing that the other CAPs lacked much of. I'd take the time to read them (they start at the beginning of page six with a bit on page five if you use the forum default). If you allow Flash Fire, all of the random, BL fire Pokemon cannot switch in (not including Heatran) and thus we limit the metagame.

TOGEKISS :happybrain:

We would want to make it more bulky in general, as we have decided that we should have mixed defenses (which doesn't necessarily mean they have to be absolutely balanced). By using more Defense or Special Defense than HP, you are making it less bulky to a certain point. I think Mekkah's spread shows good reasoning to this.

Making it specialized means that you have higher defence without making it specially over the top, but i totally see your point.

I predicted the increase of fire type usage when this thing is finally finished. Thus, HP: Rock comes to use so it can hit both fire types and the flying dragons. Makes sense, right?

POWER GEM :happybrain:

By the way, I don't think anyone would dare use more than three attacks as this thing definitely needs some sort of recovery (even Protect). Also, having it make use of Hidden Power instead of specific attacks is what we need to do to balance it. It already gets a powerful STAB combination in Fire/Grass.

It does, but this things biggest downfall is a Lack of 50% recovery ;)

I think most people will agree with my reasoning? (Actually, I'm not sure, lol.)

 

[XCPetro5678]

120 / 65 / 106 / 90 / 95 / 60 is my new end result, with a BST of 536, the bare minimum. I'm not tempted at all to use my other points anywhere, I've reached my goal: a very bulky Grass / Fire type with only average Special Attack, to make it not a heavy sweeper, but rather a tank that not only walls sweepers, but also beats out other tanks. I think that alone is very potent. Its HP is up there with Cresselia with lighter defenses (as well as the Stealth Rock weak) to keep it from being gamebreakingly hard to ram.

To show you how well it takes a hit (on inaccurate calculators, but it's only for comparison to other Pokemon)

299 Attack STAB Choice Band Close Combat on max HP/max Def Impish Skarmory
299 attack vs 416 defense, 120 power(* 1.5 * 1.5), 334 max HP: 42.22% - 49.7%

Same Close Combat on max HP/max Def Bold Woodman
299 attack vs 342 defense, 120 power(* 1.5 * 1.5), 444 max HP: 38.74% - 45.5%

Or, in raw damage, Woodman takes 202 max, and Skarmory takes 166 max, but Woodman has 110 more HP.

So indeed, he's about as sturdy as they get. Of course, Skarmory's resistances and Stealth Rock neutrality will make it win in this department, it is just a hypothetical show-off for my spread. I don't think it is going over the top either, there are many Pokemon out there with a better laid out physical HP/Def.

Don't be repelled by what looks like low Special Attack: a Fire Blast from this thing's minimum Special Attack should still do a minimum of about 93% to Skarmory, and Flamethrower will still always 2HKO (75% on a somewhat inaccurate calculator). Hippowdon takes about 75% from Grass Knot. 404/236 HP/SpDef Celebi should take about 50% on average from a Flamethrower when you don't invest anything, but with ~64 EVs we are already looking at a guaranteed 50% while with 128 you have a guaranteed 2HKO.

Mekkah, so far I'm really liking your spread. It's probably my favorite because you did a lot without using as many points. One thing I'm concerned about is what beats this thing? Stealth rock and no recovery, ignoring Leech Seed, is probably enough. I'm still feeling iffy about giving it so much defense. It's special defensive typing is so good that rock moves will become even more popular just to revenge kill it.

 

[Aki]

COUNTERS LIST:

Togekiss.
T-Tar.
Random different Phazers.

People are totally ignoring Kiss, the no. 1 viable option on the CAP Server.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

I'm not on there? BIAS I SAY!

Now..now I'm not biased towards, just considered some people more....erh favorable? IDK xD

 

[Dane]

Aki, odds are this thing won't get non-STAB'ed attacks that mean anything, so likely no Power Gem.

Also, who says this won't get a healing move? Granted it may not at this point, but there's nothing that says it can't. Morning Sun, Rest, and Synthesis are all options.

 

[Karrot]

Actually, Aki, Togekiss has been mentioned consistently throughout this entire project. I think you're just inconsistent with the thread, as Togekiss has been established as a possible 100% counter to this Pokemon.

Tyranitar is far from a counter, it cannot switch into a Grass Knot without risking a 2HKO, a possible OHKO if the Fire/Grass is running absolute max SpAtk. The only reason Tyranitar is even mentioned here is because its competition with this Pokemon is vital to balance it out.

How do random phazers beat this Pokemon?

Anyways, give this Leech Seed but not a 50% recovery move, to be honest. Caution is key this time around, and we are running entirely on "theorymon" to balance this Pokemon out.

 

[zxn666]

It's nice to see that people actually want this thing to have Power Gem without screaming that it will become broken, such a nice change.

 

[Fishin]

Besides, both Syclant and Revenankh are weak to flying. I think that on the CAP server, flying-typed attacks are really appealing right now.

Good point, I hadn't considered that at all. Still, the number of users of Flying attacks that can switch in safely is pretty small (Togekiss, Moltres, and...). I could see why Togekiss use would be on the rise, though.

 

[Karrot]

The reason this Pokemon shouldn't get Power Gem is so this Pokemon does not limit the metagame. Forcing it to choose between HP: Rock/Ice/Ground will give greater results in the end because, in essence, you are required to choose which attack will serve your team the best. It is really hard to explain why it shouldn't get Power Gem, so if someone who understands me would like to they can.

And if Power Gem is getting this much discussion, I think I have proven my theory that my previously listed set will become the standard attacking set!

 

[Fishin]

I agree with Karrot's reasoning on why Power Gem isn't a good idea. As much as I'd love to spread a rarely-used move to a Pokemon that can make good use of it, with Power Gem its number of counters suddenly goes way down.

<support move> will probably be a workable option in the last slot of a sweeper set anyways, given that Grass types tend to have big support movepools.

 

[Lord Gloom]

Since my spread is all about choice, I'm going to say no to Power Gem. Having to choose between an HP creates a wider array of possible sets to run on this guy.

 

[gorm]

lol power gem e-E;

lord gloom i prolly like your spread the best r_R

 

[Lord Gloom]

Also, I wish more people would comment on my spread. I'm not requesting praise or anything, I just put a lot of work into it and would like to see some input.

Sorry!

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

How in God's name is any of those drawings currently in the submission thread have enough justification for Power Gem? I think the this whole entire thread got way off track with the waiting of the next thread.

 

[Aki]

Actually, Aki, Togekiss has been mentioned consistently throughout this entire project. I think you're just inconsistent with the thread, as Togekiss has been established as a possible 100% counter to this Pokemon.

Then idk why people are screaming "NO COUNTERS! NO COUNTERS! UNBALANCED! UBER!" for. Moltres is another, possibly Charizard.

Tyranitar is far from a counter, it cannot switch into a Grass Knot without risking a 2HKO, a possible OHKO if the Fire/Grass is running absolute max SpAtk. The only reason Tyranitar is even mentioned here is because its competition with this Pokemon is vital to balance it out.

Therefore it is crucial for Tar to outspeed it ;)

How do random phazers beat this Pokemon?

Random Phazers + SR that are not weak to Fire or grass.

Anyways, give this Leech Seed but not a 50% recovery move, to be honest. Caution is key this time around, and we are running entirely on "theorymon" to balance this Pokemon out.
We've got bulky spreads, so if we give it a 50% recovery everyone will start screaming "NO COUNTERS! NO COUNTERS! UNBALANCED! UBER!" Even more loudly.

 

[Karrot]

That's not exactly answering the question. Could you give examples of Pokemon whom consistently phaze (meaning it is part of one or more of their standard sets) and switch into this Pokemon?

Also, quite frankly I don't see anybody here screaming that phrase or anything like it.

 

[Lord Gloom]

Also, just thought I'd say that at Max+ 115 SpA, Tyranitar will get 2HKOed by Energy Ball, but CBTar OHKOs back at 105/95. So what really matters is who outspeeds who, which is one of the focuses of my spread (they're both in direct competition with one another for priority here).

Of course, both of those numbers have outliers so they both have a chance to survive, but the probability of it is pretty low.

Also, am I the only one who doesn't want this guy to have Grass Knot? I personally think that Energy Ball/Solarbeam is good enough for a Grass STAB.

 

[Karrot]

Since Lord Gloom asked, I'll respond to his spread:

Youch, those are actually some nasty calculations for Power Whip, but far from unacceptable. Do the Gyarados calculations factor in Intimidate or not?

I do like your choice of defense and special attack, as it accidentally aids the idea of Tyranitar and this Pokemon competing against each other. Tyranitar has an obvious advantage in that its Stone Edge deals more damage than your Grass Knot. I thought you were a supporter of 60 base speed, though. ?_? Tyranitar generally do not run a lot of speed, I think, so I'm not too sure how 70 base speed will aid competition... I'm guessing you threw those in to meet the minimum base stat requirement?

Other than that, I think its defenses are pretty proportionate. Nice spread.

EDIT: I'm not too sure whether or not Grass Knot should be included. In fact, that has never crossed my mind, as I always thought this would definitely have Grass Knot.

 

[Lord Gloom]

Since Lord Gloom asked, I'll respond to his spread:

Youch, those are actually some nasty calculations for Power Whip, but far from unacceptable. Do the Gyarados calculations factor in Intimidate or not?

I do like your choice of defense and special attack, as it accidentally aids the idea of Tyranitar and this Pokemon competing against each other. Tyranitar has an obvious advantage in that its Stone Edge deals more damage than your Grass Knot. I thought you were a supporter of 60 base speed, though. ?_? Tyranitar generally do not run a lot of speed, I think, so I'm not too sure how 70 base speed will aid competition... I'm guessing you threw those in to meet the minimum base stat requirement?

Other than that, I think its defenses are pretty proportionate. Nice spread.

EDIT: I'm not too sure whether or not Grass Knot should be included. In fact, that has never crossed my mind, as I always thought this would definitely have Grass Knot.

Oops, I messed up on the Gyara calc. Lemme fix that in a minute. However, my point is that running some physical moves (especially if he gets Wood Hammer/Flare Blitz) isn't totally outlandish, and even does decent damage against certain bulky Pokemon (and can even OHKO CBTar with the right build).

Also, I was for 60 base speed, but I want this guy and Tyranitar to be competitors rather than counter and countee. Giving him 60 base speed won't keep them in fair competition, since CBTar runs 196 Speed. The 70 base speed will always give a minimum favor over Tyraniboah, though that wasn't my primary concern here.

Would I lower it if I could? Possibly. I personally want to fix up that SpD for Togekiss, but what can you do?

Edit: Yeah, with Intimidate down, Power Whip/Wood Hammer would only do 127-150 damage. Ouch!