CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 6.5 (BST Spillover)

[Fishin]

How in God's name is any of those drawings currently in the submission thread have enough justification for Power Gem? I think the this whole entire thread got way off track with the waiting of the next thread.

Woodman and Gentle Giant both look sort of rocky, which could fit to an extent.

@Gloom's spread: I like how it fares vs TTar and Togekiss. I can't say much beyond that because it's pretty similar to mine (just with more def and less sp def), though.

 

[Dane]

1) Power Whip isn't guaranteed since I can't really see any of the current art submissions (except the Jack o Lantern and maybe one or two others I'm forgetting) using it. Just because something is grass, or has a tail, doesn't mean it should get this. Whatever could classify as a whip needs to have further reach than his arms do.

2) Grass Knot, again we need to see what art is finalized. A lot more can use this than Power Whip. Hell, Infernape can use it.

3) If so many people have a problem with this thing offensively, why do people keep submitting/wanting spreads with 110/115+ SpAtk?


As for counters:

Charizard, Moltres, Salamence, Dragonite. All are faster, take either half or quarter damage from both STAB attacks, and the only way to counter them is HP. If Rock, hits all SE (likely OHKOs Charizard and Moltres) but may not KO Salamence and Dragonite. Ground hits none of them. Ice is neutral against Charizard and Moltres, and x4 to the dragons.

Flash Fire is also a possible counter. This includes Ninetales, Arcanine, Rapidash, Flareon, Houndoom, and Heatran. All are immune to one stab, and take half damage or less to the other. HP Ice is reduced damage, but all are hit by HP ground and rock.

Thick Fat, as said before, also works. Hariyama, Snorlax, Miltank, Grumpig, and Purugly have no weakness to the STABs, nor likely HPs. They then take half damage from the fire attacks.

So yeah, Fire Pokemon, most dragons, and Thick Fat users can counter.

 

[Lord Gloom]

@Gloom's spread: I like how it fares vs TTar and Togekiss. I can't say much beyond that because it's pretty similar to mine (just with more def and less sp def), though.

Thanks, one of my concerns that he was counterable, but not an easy counter, if you get what I'm saying.

1) Power Whip isn't guaranteed since I can't really see any of the current art submissions (except the Jack o Lantern and maybe one or two others I'm forgetting) using it. Just because something is grass, or has a tail, doesn't mean it should get this. Whatever could classify as a whip needs to have further reach than his arms do.

2) Grass Knot, again we need to see what art is finalized. A lot more can use this than Power Whip. Hell, Infernape can use it.

I really don't care for Power Whip. Like I said in the Art Topic, a Rock Head equivalent and Wood Hammer/Flare Blitz would be very nice.

Also, I know Grass Knot is a generally common move, but I just really don't want to see this guy using it. It could possibly obsolete any Sunnybeam variants, which would be a huge shame, and the question we need to ask is if it's really necessary at all.

 

[Karrot]

Also, I was for 60 base speed, but I want this guy and Tyranitar to be competitors rather than counter and countee. Giving him 60 base speed won't keep them in fair competition, since CBTar runs 196 Speed. The 70 base speed will always give a minimum favor over Tyraniboah, though that wasn't my primary concern here.

Hmmm, I think I like that. But now I'm really hard-pressed because I'm not sure which spread would be the absolute best. @_@ I wonder if it's possible to combine the appealing factors of all the spreads into one?

Yeah, Dane's earlier post sums up this Pokemon's counters other than Tentacruel and Togekiss (the best counters). He also explains why I'd rather stay away from Flash Fire, seeing as how many fire Pokemon can come in to deal effective damage. This Pokemon already has Hidden Power: Rock, Flash Fire would only ridicule the many "unappreciated" fire Pokemon.

I can see Wood Hammer (more than Power Whip and Flare Blitz, at least) on this Pokemon, but perhaps it may use it too well if it has enough HP to laugh at the recoil?

 

[Cartoons!]

Woodman and Gentle Giant both look sort of rocky, which could fit to an extent.

@Gloom's spread: I like how it fares vs TTar and Togekiss. I can't say much beyond that because it's pretty similar to mine (just with more def and less sp def), though.

When coming up with movesets, it's probably a better idea to stay within the realms of believability.

To date, the only Power Gem users have been Pokemon with some sort jewel of precious stone encrusted on their body. Having armor made of wood doesn't qualify no matter how convenient/game-breaking it is.


On topic, there a number of agreeable stat distributions here, though Mekkah's well-reasoned approach wins my trust.

 

[Lord Gloom]

I can see Wood Hammer (more than Power Whip and Flare Blitz, at least) on this Pokemon, but perhaps it may use it too well if it has enough HP to laugh at the recoil?

Well, I want him to have a no recoil trait, so that's a moot point.

 

[Dane]

I really don't care for Power Whip. Like I said in the Art Topic, a Rock Head equivalent and Wood Hammer/Flare Blitz would be very nice.

Agreed, I love the idea of a Rock Headed BlitzHammer. Given that his attack is low, it's not game breaking or anything. Acts as his "Boah" set, which I actually stated in my spread analysis.

Also, I know Grass Knot is a generally common move, but I just really don't want to see this guy using it. It could possibly obsolete any Sunnybeam variants, which would be a huge shame, and the question we need to ask is if it's really necessary at all.

Solarbeam won't be seen. Ever. Tyranitar and Hippowdon can come in on a predicted beam and royally screw it up. It forces a charge, and drops BP down by half, which I believe after STAB would be 90 instead of 180. Abomasnow also forces a charge, though the power remains the same.

 

[Karrot]

Well, I want him to have a no recoil trait, so that's a moot point.

Ah, I see.

Still, after all this, I still see Lava Plume/Grass Knot/Leech Seed/Rest as being the sole standard set, as the more I look into such things as "BlitzHammer" the more I realize how practical this set is.

Yeah, we're is kind of getting off topic, but seeing as it is helping us decide early on what should and should not be included (rather than only what should be included), I think it is pretty healthy to have these kind of discussions.

 

[Aki]

Also, just thought I'd say that at Max+ 115 SpA, Tyranitar will get 2HKOed by Energy Ball, but CBTar OHKOs back at 105/95. So what really matters is who outspeeds who, which is one of the focuses of my spread (they're both in direct competition with one another for priority here).

Of course, both of those numbers have outliers so they both have a chance to survive, but the probability of it is pretty low.

Also, am I the only one who doesn't want this guy to have Grass Knot? I personally think that Energy Ball/Solarbeam is good enough for a Grass STAB.

Yes. Yes, you are.

If it outspeeds tar then it makes the only 100% Counter kiss, and we need more than 1 with high defences and attacking prowess.

Since Lord Gloom asked, I'll respond to his spread:

Youch, those are actually some nasty calculations for Power Whip, but far from unacceptable. Do the Gyarados calculations factor in Intimidate or not?

I do like your choice of defense and special attack, as it accidentally aids the idea of Tyranitar and this Pokemon competing against each other. Tyranitar has an obvious advantage in that its Stone Edge deals more damage than your Grass Knot. I thought you were a supporter of 60 base speed, though. ?_? Tyranitar generally do not run a lot of speed, I think, so I'm not too sure how 70 base speed will aid competition... I'm guessing you threw those in to meet the minimum base stat requirement?

Other than that, I think its defenses are pretty proportionate. Nice spread.

EDIT: I'm not too sure whether or not Grass Knot should be included. In fact, that has never crossed my mind, as I always thought this would definitely have Grass Knot.

It will have GK ?_? Also, again, if it outruns tar then it outruns a major counter. Besides, CBTar dosen't run full speed evs. This thing NEEDS to be slower then tar.

Woodman and Gentle Giant both look sort of rocky, which could fit to an extent.

@Gloom's spread: I like how it fares vs TTar and Togekiss. I can't say much beyond that because it's pretty similar to mine (just with more def and less sp def), though.

It cannot fare well against those 2, because they are the top counters =SSSS

1) Power Whip isn't guaranteed since I can't really see any of the current art submissions (except the Jack o Lantern and maybe one or two others I'm forgetting) using it. Just because something is grass, or has a tail, doesn't mean it should get this. Whatever could classify as a whip needs to have further reach than his arms do.

2) Grass Knot, again we need to see what art is finalized. A lot more can use this than Power Whip. Hell, Infernape can use it.

Any grass type can use GK IMO.

3) If so many people have a problem with this thing offensively, why do people keep submitting/wanting spreads with 110/115+ SpAtk?

Yupz.


As for counters:

Originally Posted by Fat Dane
Charizard, Moltres, Salamence, Dragonite. All are faster, take either half or quarter damage from both STAB attacks, and the only way to counter them is HP. If Rock, hits all SE (likely OHKOs Charizard and Moltres) but may not KO Salamence and Dragonite. Ground hits none of them. Ice is neutral against Charizard and Moltres, and x4 to the dragons.

Flash Fire is also a possible counter. This includes Ninetales, Arcanine, Rapidash, Flareon, Houndoom, and Heatran. All are immune to one stab, and take half damage or less to the other. HP Ice is reduced damage, but all are hit by HP ground and rock.

Thick Fat, as said before, also works. Hariyama, Snorlax, Miltank, Grumpig, and Purugly have no weakness to the STABs, nor likely HPs. They then take half damage from the fire attacks.

So yeah, Fire Pokemon, most dragons, and Thick Fat users can counter.

Yup, but we want this to not absolutly crumble under the prescence of Chomp and Mence.

 

[Lord Gloom]

Solarbeam won't be seen. Ever. Tyranitar and Hippowdon can come in on a predicted beam and royally screw it up. It forces a charge, and drops BP down by half, which I believe after STAB would be 90 instead of 180. Abomasnow also forces a charge, though the power remains the same.

I know it's probably not optimal, but just the immense power of it all is very persuading. Considering that all you really have to worry about is Tyranitar and Hippowdon (who would ever send in an Abomasnow on this?) and whatever other counters your selected HP doesn't get, you aren't exactly in an awful position. I personally consider having hard counters in this situation the offset for the tremendous pain it can dish out, just like X coming in on a predicted Choice Y, though obviously here the consequences of it are a lot heavier.

Regardless, I really don't want Grass Knot. Energy Ball off of a STAB 115 SpA is still very good.

It cannot fare well against those 2, because they are the top counters =SSSS

I'm sorry, but wouldn't it be by definition that if he fares decently against these two, they aren't actually the top counters?

Just because they were presented early on as strong against early spreads doesn't mean they'll stay that way. Regardless, both of those will beat my spread 9/10; If CBTar comes in on a predicted Fire Blast/HP Rock, it'll be pretty much guaranteed to live and OHKO back, and Togekiss can roost off the damage from Fire Blast unless it's under Sunny Day. I'll calc what an HP Rock does to it, though.

 

[Aldaron]

I had a nice little giggle when going through the last 4 pages.

Here's a little recap, all the way from the beginning of this topic, literally the #4 post in this thread.

536-545

115 HP / 75 Atk / 102 Def / 106 SpA / 83 SpD / 60 Spe

I outlined why I choose this spread in that last thread, but I'll make a few summary points:

1.) High HP is necessary for maximizing efficiency on the defenses if we want it to be mixed defensively.

2.) Special Attack > Attack was voted on by the community

3.) It's a pretty unique spread, though anything with this much bulk and special attack NEEDS LOWER SPEED otherwise it could very well end up broken with its offensive STAB.

I liked the slightly off topic conversation we had going in the last thread about possible Stall type abilities for this Pokemon, and I would like to continue it a bit here.

I'm still 100% supporting Karrot's idea of Pressure, though Flame Body or Battle Armor (basing this off of a few designs) all are possible as well.

I had 115 HP / 74 Atk / 102 Def / 106 SpA / 83 SpD / 60 Spe (the reason I have 74 Atk instead of 75 was because I realized an error and changed it a few posts after that...I just never bothered to edit it in) in #4.

Now, I'm just going through...and I see:

is it too late to post a spread, because i was almost done with mine yesterday but my computer crashed. since im on my wii right now ill post my reasoning if chosen. the spread: 115/69/100/101/94/66=545. sorry if its too late everyone.

And:

120 / 65 / 106 / 90 / 95 / 60 is my new end result, with a BST of 536, the bare minimum. I'm not tempted at all to use my other points anywhere, I've reached my goal: a very bulky Grass / Fire type with only average Special Attack, to make it not a heavy sweeper, but rather a tank that not only walls sweepers, but also beats out other tanks. I think that alone is very potent. Its HP is up there with Cresselia with lighter defenses (as well as the Stealth Rock weak) to keep it from being gamebreakingly hard to ram.

And:

Here's my spread.

105/72/95/115/79/70

OTHER JUNK:

Tankiness: 2309.6392857142857142857142857143

Sweepiness: 192.52776066269596768672554254809

Speed Factor: .55

Rating: 445.83 (Good)

And:

110 / 70 / 120 / 100 / 100 / 45

Hmmm, well before I comment, let's do a basic statistical check...



tennisace0227's spread of 115/69/100/101/94/66- This gives a final number of 569. From my post regarding the 5 Pokemon in the "Very Good" list who made use of both their STABs, the highest was Togekiss at 538. Is it wise to shatter this ceiling by over 30 points? You tell me. This is 538 at 545 BST.




mekkah's spread of 120 / 65 / 106 / 90 / 95 / 60- This gives a final number of 520. I think this is acceptable. 520 at 536 BST.

LordGloom's spread of 105/72/95/115/79/70- LordGloom claims that this gives a number of 446, but I have now done it three times and I get 531 everytime. I am getting a 229 for your sweepiness factor...are you remember to add 18 to each stat? 531 at 536 BST.

Aki's spread of 110 / 70 / 120 / 100 / 100 / 45- I'm going to go ahead and say that this can't work because we voted medium for Speed and the absolute lowest that is possible at that range is 60.

115 HP / 74 Atk / 102 Def / 106 SpA / 83 SpD / 60 Spe

That is my spread again...and there seems to be a common theme here...Instead of people submitting spreads that are literally just tweaks of one submitted previously, why don't you guys just work on what is already there?

Btw, my spread gives a number of 528 at 540 BST. Were I to drop 74 Atk to 70 Atk, that number would become 519.

Seriously guys, what is the point of cluttering up this topic with spreads that are so incredibly similar to one that is already submitted?

Btw, about the 60 base Speed point...if we are are going to make this bulky (yes, since the community has decided so), and if we are going to make this good at special attacks (yes, because the community has decided so), then we sure as hell better limit this Speed. I don't know who said that CBTar runs 196 speed...but I have never seen this. It is either max Speed or 0 Speed in favor of 252 HP. Tar can't switch into this, but it sure as hell is a good check against it.

Putting at 60 base Speed ensures that check, and also ensures that this thing will have to invest a significant amount of Speed EVs in order to outspeed minimum Speed Togekiss (80 base Speed).

60 base Speed is the way to go, guys.

EDIT: Also...lol @ the no Grass Knot suggestion...Um what? That is so arbitrary haha.

 

[Lord Gloom]

LordGloom's spread of 105/72/95/115/79/70- LordGloom claims that this gives a number of 446, but I have now done it three times and I get 531 everytime. I am getting a 229 for your sweepiness factor...are you remember to add 18 to each stat? 531 at 536 BST.

[...]

Btw, about the 60 base Speed point...if we are are going to make this bulky (yes, since the community has decided so), and if we are going to make this good at special attacks (yes, because the community has decided so), then we sure as hell better limit this Speed. I don't know who said that CBTar runs 196 speed...but I have never seen this. It is either max Speed or 0 Speed in favor of 252 HP. Tar can't switch into this, but it sure as hell is a good check against it.

Putting at 60 base Speed ensures that check, and also ensures that this thing will have to invest a significant amount of Speed EVs in order to outspeed minimum Speed Togekiss (80 base Speed).

60 base Speed is the way to go, guys.

EDIT: Also...lol @ the no Grass Knot suggestion...Um what? That is so arbitrary haha.

I was sure I did, but regardless, it was a miscalc. My bad there, I'll edit that.

As for the speed point, I've personally seen it in enough in my experience to call it the primary spread as I view it, and that's also what the analysis lists for an optimal CBTar. The fact that you'll need to put in a fair amount of EVs will make for competition among TTar/Togekiss and this guy, resulting in new spreads, which is a good diversifying factor for the metagame.

The 10 extra base speed is what mainly differentiates our spreads, along with the bonus I have in SpA. Also, was it really necessary to be so disparaging by calling it "clutter"? We're pretty limited in what we can do regardless.

 

[Aki]

I've actually got another spread:
130/70/102/100/87/56

Take 4 points out of Attack if you wish.

EVERYONE NEEDS TO MAKE USE OF THE 545 CAP. This is to ensure that we don't end up with a half bulky half SpAing mediocre shitface of a thing.

115 HP / 75 Atk / 102 Def / 106 SpA / 83 SpD / 60 Spe

Needs more in SpD. Also i totally missed that, i've been running my own calcs for my spreads.

I'm sorry, but wouldn't it be by definition that if he fares decently against these two, they aren't actually the top counters?

Just because they were presented early on as strong against early spreads doesn't mean they'll stay that way. Regardless, both of those will beat my spread 9/10; If CBTar comes in on a predicted Fire Blast/HP Rock, it'll be pretty much guaranteed to live and OHKO back, and Togekiss can roost off the damage from Fire Blast unless it's under Sunny Day. I'll calc what an HP Rock does to it, though.

It was established early these are the top counters. Make the CAP Effective against these, we end up with the same situation of REvenankh: The only counters are 50%, and are BL/UU that fare shit in standards.

And energy ball sucks shit on anything but gengar. GK Is a heaps better option in OU.

 

[tennisace]

y'know, i never finished the calcs for the spread... maybe next time ill make a spread thats worthwhile.

 

[Dane]

I don't understand the following two things:

1) Why people who want huge SpAtk (115+) keep arguing that it's too powerful and has few counters.

2) Why anyone would want good, non-stabbed attacks (ex: Power Gem) on this, and then complain at the lack of counters.


Seriously, if you complain about the lack of counters (especially without looking at the list of very usable counters I posted that aren't "normally in OU"), don't suggest things to make it even more powerful!

Also, if BL pokemon are needed to counter things, THAT'S GOOD. It means we don't alienate the metagame to those currently in the OU already. It creates diversity and change.

Also, Energy Ball > Grass Knot against Dugtrio too. In fact, Dugtrio might be able to Revenge Kill this with a CB Stone Edge.

 

[Lord Gloom]

And energy ball sucks shit on anything but gengar. GK Is a heaps better option in OU.

Well, duh. The idea is that it's unnecessary and would just make this guy stronger than he really needs to be. You can have the power (Solarbeam) or the utility (Energy Ball) of it, but not both at the same time.

 

[Karrot]

No, Tyranitar is not a counter to this Pokemon, and nobody in this entire topic established that. As Aldaron explained much better than I did, Tyranitar merely puts a check on the Fire/Grass type. Tyranitar is 2HKOed by a Grass Knot, 3HKO with a major investment in SpDef (which is only seen on CBTar to aid in the execution of Gengar).

To be honest, if there was one person in this topic I loathed, it'd be you, Aki. It's the way you post and how you go about posting it that turns me off...

Also, if BL pokemon are needed to counter things, THAT'S GOOD. It means we don't alienate the metagame to those currently in the OU already. It creates diversity and change.

Yes, this is exactly why Flash Fire should be avoided, so that fire types are not "alienated."

 

[Lord Gloom]

1) Why people who want huge SpAtk (115+) keep arguing that it's too powerful and has few counters.

Well, we are a bit hindered by the huge BST minimum, but let me explain what I'm getting at.

I do want him to be moderately (but not excessively) strong; that I have no qualms with. I'm just running my spiel about being careful with him again, and taking to heart the objective of CAP. Giving him GK would very possibly obsolete multiple sets that run slightly different for Solarbeam/Grass Knot, and forming them into an amalgam which would eventually be boiled and boiled until we ended up with just one or two main sets to run. Giving him GK on my set makes him possibly too strong for Tyranitar/to a lesser extent Hippowdon to handle, and while I do want him competing with TTar, I want him (as well as Hippowdon) to have the advantage.

 

[Aldaron]

Lol, LordGloom, I wasn't referring to the spreads as clutter so much as the fact that "submitting" a supposedly "new" spread that is actually just minor tweaking of an already submitted one is "clutter."

O, Aki, again...you are not reaching the minimum Speed we have allowed...it is 60, not 56, lol.

About the 70 base Speed...we're already having difficulty stating numerous counters to this thing. We've basically said that Togekiss is a "decent" one, though it really also needs to be EVed specifically to not be 2HKOd by a Specs Fire Blast.

Since legit counters are out of the question, I'd like to increase the number of "checks." I define check as anything that can come in after something has died and pose immediate threat to this. A check can also be something than doesn't take massive damage from this on the switch in, but is too much to be a true counter.

Possible "checks" at base Speed 70 are Ludicolo, Hitmontop and Breloom. I say Breloom because it can Spore and then Stone Edge for the 2HKO. Hitmontop is a specially bulky fighter than can 2HKO with Stone Edge, and Ludicolo is a check (arguably even a counter) for obvious reasons. This is ignoring that Skarmory can possibly deal up to 51% damage on your spread if it runs 96 Atk and your spread runs 252 HP / 252 Def Bold.

At between 61-70 Speed, there are three possible checks: Tyranitar at 61, Seviper at 65 and Hypno at 67. Tyranitar can come in and possibly OHKO with an Adamant CB Stone Edge; Seviper can 2HKO with a Life Orb Sludge Bomb and Hypno is bulky enough specially to be able to Toxic Stall with Wish + Protect or just delay until a more auspicious strategy comes up.

All of those really are required to be faster than this Pokemon in order to remain checks. That is 7 possible checks removed due to the jump from 60 to 70 base Speed.

That's really why I am emphasizing 60 base Speed.

 

[Lord Gloom]

I just want to say, assuming that it didn't end up with GK, wouldn't Tyranitar be able to soak up a hit and OHKO back regardless of if he outsped him or not? The whole point is that Tyranitar or this guy could be the one outspeeding the other, and it all depends on spreads. There would be a cutoff point for this guy when adding more speed to beat out TTar would be a poor decision for most sets, and even if this sits above TTar's total max speed, wouldn't it be good for the game if something like ScarfTar (who if I'm not mistaken could still possibly OHKO a Max/Max+ set, but I'll check on that) saw more use?

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Well folks the next poll is up and ready, though technically I wasn't going to submit it just yet. I blame a misclick for that.

 

[Lord Gloom]

If you'll allow it, I'd still like to argue for my set. Normally, I wouldn't much care, since all the spreads are very similar, but since mine (and presumably others) operate on the exact stats rather than the whole of the stats, it functions in a different way than others would.

 

[Aldaron]

Assuming that a Grass Pokemon doesn't end up with Grass Knot is so unnecessary...why arbitrarily remove a move from a Pokemon when the problem could be fixed simply by setting Speed to an appropriate level.

There are still the other 6 "checks," however to consider.

 

[Lord Gloom]

Assuming that a Grass Pokemon doesn't end up with Grass Knot is so unnecessary...why arbitrarily remove a move from a Pokemon when the problem could be fixed simply by setting Speed to an appropriate level.

There are still the other 6 "checks," however to consider.

It was hardly arbitrary. The fact of the matter is, giving him less speed than Tyranitar isn't a check. That will make Tyranitar a counter, by virtue that he'll be able to switch in on anything short of a Specs GK and OHKO back next turn. By keeping them in competing speed and removing an move that tilts it in the favor of our Pokemon, Tyranitar is now an effective check/soft counter. He can still be beaten, but will still likely win.

So the choice is yours here. We could keep him at 60 speed and have TTar as a bona fide counter, give him 70 speed to chump TTar, or give him 70 speed and remove one really good move and offer him two reasonable substitutes to keep Tyranitar as a check.

 

[Dane]

Could always just vote for the spreads with lower special attack so we don't have to worry about this thing freaking OHKOing and 2HKOing everything.

Why is this not being understood? If it's too strong to counter at 115 SpAtk... THEN DON'T GIVE IT THAT MUCH SPATK!

(By the way, SPATK! sounds like an amazing sound effect.)