CAP 4 CAP 4 - Support Moves Discussion

[Absolution]

I'm going to assume Bug/Fairy groups for this.

Putting this thing in the Fairy egg group is a massive stretch. If the Volbeat family didn't get the Fairy egg group, there's no way this should.

Bug is the only one that really works. Mineral, maybe, if you want to argue what he's made out of due to the Ground type.

Gravity isn't so much of a stretch if fat-asses like Blissey get it.

What does Blissey's size have to do with anything? It's clearly a Fairy type creature, so it gets it.

 

[DiamondDust]

That's false. Again, watch Mythbusters episode 13. They tested the effects of Daddy Long Leg venom against that of a Black Widow's (the most deadly spider in North America). The Black Widow venom was immensely stronger.

The strongest venom in the world is the Brazillian Wandering Spider's, followed by the Funnelweb. It is true, however, that a Daddy Long Leg's fangs cannot penetrate deep enough to poison a human (though they can puncture the skin, it doesn't go deep enough).

THE MORE YOU KNOW​

god, neither of you read my post right.
not DEADLIEST, just very POISONIOUS. their venom is the most POTENT, but they don't produce enough of it to hurt, or kill a human.
now, you may be right about some venom being stronger, but it still is one of the strongest.
EDIT: sorry, i was misinformed by multiple people, who backed it up with some solid facts, but it turns out they were wrong >.>.
although, daddy long legs give out almost no venom at all, but yet adam felt a burning itching sensation...
i think they should get a large amount of this venom (as much as a brown recluse bite, or a black widow) and inject it into some sort of subject.

we are getting off topic with this.
our daddy long legs is venomous regardless of the real daddy long legs.

 

[Dane]

Either way, it doesn't matter beyond flavour aspects for this.

 

[ParadOxymoron]

We really can't let this thing have Tailwind. Whirlwind is fine, but if this thing has Tailwind then we might as well be giving it to Hariyama and Starmie, too. Sheesh.

I also really don't think it makes sense at all for this thing to have U-Turn. While I can picture it doing many things, but making a 180-degree turn perfectly swiftly is not one of them. It'd just fall over its hands!

We could have voted for the Smog Imp, and then Tailwind would have a shot, but we didn't, and now it can't get it. We could have voted for Zantimonius's Texas Horned Devil, and then U-Turn would be a shoe-in, but we didn't. We voted for the Daddy Long Legs. It was the most awesome design, but that doesn't mean that it can get every move. You can't just vote for whatever art you want and then just expect it to be able to get all of the moves you wanted it to. This goes back to what I was saying when I first got to that I really don't think it's fair to force flavor to stretch itself thin to breaking just to meet up with all the mechanics you want to stuff into this thing! Let's keep it real, folks.

 

[darkie]

Why is U-turn a stretch when Ambipom gets U-turn?

 

[ParadOxymoron]

Why is U-turn a stretch when Ambipom gets U-turn?

That's actually a good point. I didn't know Ambipom got U-Turn.

Still, I have an easier time seeing Ambipom going, "Smack! Fwoosh" and dashing away than I do with Jazzdyne. (If Deck Knight's going to call it by his name, then I'm damn well going to call it by mine! :D) Too many moving parts, as they say. Call me a stick in the mud.

But that's really not my point. Anything about U-Turn, or even this design in particular, wasn't really the point I was trying to make. Just that, there's no magical design that's going to make sense with every single move you want to give it, and that has to be accepted. If this Pokémon gets every utility move in the book, (because really, if you draw the line at Tailwind, then there's not much it can't get,) then it'll get just as much bad press as Syclant does.

What I'm saying is, if there's a voice in the back of your head telling you, "Yeah, I really think this is a stretch," then please don't support it. That's really all I can say.

 

[the_artic_one]

Pelipper gets it too, why does everyone assume a creature with more than four limbs is clumsy? Just because a human's brain isn't designed for that amount of coordinated multi-tasking, doesn't mean all animals are like that, I've never seen a spider trip.

And I can imagine at least two ways it could u-turn.

 

[Drakhun]

I just don;t want to see tailwind, or trick room for that matter. Tailwind, and TR to a lesser extent, are insanely broken with the first ability.

Now, as for moves it should get:
Wish - It gives vital spirit build soem recovery, without taking advantage of the high speed on DLL
Everyone TMs - duh
Gravity - Why not?
Encore - 8 hands, it can give a good encore. Great utility move.
Spider Web - Hello, its a spider
Spikes and Crew - Poison ground, gets all three.
Screens - I think everyone gets these, but they go in concept
Taunt - See hands, see hands flip you off


Though, if this guy does get spiderweb + encore, he can not have counter or mirror coat.

 

[Sunday]

Ok, lets not start imposing names on this guys. It meerly discredits whatever else you say in your post.
Reguardless it's time to re-rail this train wreck of a thread. No more tl;dr lists. I want only concrete opinions with supporting evidence that the following moves either are or are not broken. I don't give a fuck if you "want" it to get this move, or if you "don't want" it to have it. That is all irrelivent right now. When the time comes, you can vote for the movesets that do/do not include said moves. What matters is "Is giving this Pokemon this move going to
a) Prove to be "broken" (for lack of a less subjective term)
b) Open us to ridicule due to being extremely stupid (Aqua Ring, etc)
c) Cause a current OU Pokemon to become completly obselete"

I don't want any worrying about how many moves we can fit into a movepool either. We can worry about that later. For now, we need a list of moves which we can take to a poll to determine which ones will be banned from this Pokemon's movepool.

Moves that need more discussion:
Spikes
Toxic Spikes
Wish
U-Turn
Taunt
Heal Block
Counter/Mirror Coat

Please don't talk about:
SR, it's an "every Pokemon" TM move if ever I saw one.
Yawn, it's going in the poll.
50% recover - Going to poll.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Wouldn't Recovery moves like Recover/Slack Off needs some more discussion too? Personally, if a 100/100/100 defensive Pokemon has Recover and isn't considered broken than an 95/109/80 defensive creature is nowhere near broken. I can see it either learning Recover or Wish but not both at the same time for some reason that probably involving lots of bitching and moaning from others.

We could have voted for the Smog Imp, and then Tailwind would have a shot, but we didn't, and now it can't get it. We could have voted for Zantimonius's Texas Horned Devil, and then U-Turn would be a shoe-in, but we didn't. We voted for the Daddy Long Legs. It was the most awesome design, but that doesn't mean that it can get every move. You can't just vote for whatever art you want and then just expect it to be able to get all of the moves you wanted it to. This goes back to what I was saying when I first got to that I really don't think it's fair to force flavor to stretch itself thin to breaking just to meet up with all the mechanics you want to stuff into this thing! Let's keep it real, folks.

Or in other ways what looks like the best design in the majorites' eyes may actually be the worst design for your cause/goal.

 

[ParadOxymoron]

I really think that this should get Toxic Spikes and Spikes. I think it would look silly to give it Toxic Spikes without giving it regular Spikes, too, and without Toxic Spikes, that takes away half of the reason why we made this thing a Poison type instead of an Electric type in the first place. (The other half being that it could absorb those said Toxic Spikes in addition to laying them out. I'm aware there were some other, smaller reasons, such as a resistance to Fighting, but Toxic Spikes was the big deal.)

The only argument I can see for not giving it Toxic Spikes is that it would make it too similar to Forretress, but I really don't think that that will happen as long as we don't give this thing Explosion, too. A (Toxic) Spikes / Gravity / Whirlwind / Earth Power set just smells too awesome to me to pass up.

Pelipper gets it too, why does everyone assume a creature with more than four limbs is clumsy?

That's because Pelipper flies. But I'll keep quiet now.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Is this thing going to even get Whirlwind? I suppose it can use Whirlwind the same way Hariyama does it, fan his huge hands with such force that they blow the enemy away. In that description, Icy Wind/Tailwind could also be done in the same way...sorta.

(Toxic) Spikes probably be in it's movepool by the time the damaging attack discussion come up. It seem fitting for F.B.H.S to have them to some extent.

I also like to say that Counter is plausible on this guy, but not Mirror Coat. I don't know how it could use Mirror Coat to begin with really.

 

[X-Act]

How can this get Spider Web? It doesn't even remotely look like a spider. Since when does having 8 hands mean it's a spider? It's not a spider!

Block is much more in-flavour... with 8 hands, it can easily block the path of the foe's escape.

Also, Tailwind doesn't imply that the Pokemon's got a tail. This is what Tailwind is. It is basically wind that blows from your behind (thus aiding your speed). It has nothing to do with tails... just that it hits you from your tail (i.e. your behind).

If this Pokemon can generate Tailwind somehow, then it can also generate a Whirlwind in a similar manner. Note the 'If' though.

 

[Time Mage]

Tailwind.... no. For one, the concept of a 5 turn tailwind troubles me immensly.

WHY? As I said previously, it's like a Batton Passed Agility with the disadvantage of lasting only 3 turns, and the advantage of being immune to PHaze moves. I do think it's a good compromise.

Flavor wise, yeah it's difficult to justify. But I'd like it to be there, and Suicune, even if it's the pokemonization of the North wind, it's not a flying pokémon, so we could justify it. I personally envision it flapping 4 hands together behind it.

As for Gravity... something in the lines of this pokémon introducing one hand in the ground and pulling the opponent with it sound pretty reasonable to me.

Trick Room? Stantler, Spinda and Keckleon learn it. What the hell do those have to justify it? WYu could give me reasons, and they would be as farfetched as any I could come up with for this one. The move is useful, this is a pokémon that is intended to be utility, and it is NOT unjustifiable flavor-wise.

 

[ParadOxymoron]

Is this thing going to even get Whirlwind? I suppose it can use Whirlwind the same way Hariyama does it, fan his huge hands with such force that they blow the enemy away. In that description, Icy Wind/Tailwind could also be done.

Yeah, but no! Hariyama doesn't get either of those. Ugh. That's totally not what I meant.

Guys, please don't give this thing Tailwind. It probably won't even be used, it will just make us look bad because we gave it every utility move in the book, even the ones that make almost no sense.

And really, just because it can wave its hands doesn't mean it can get Tailwind. If that were enough, then what Pokémon wouldn't get Tailwind?

This is an inconsistency that we can either have? or not have. All we have to do to avoid this inconsistency is just say, hey! Let's not give it Tailwind. I understand that the whole special attack based set vs. physically oriented design was unavoidable, and things like that are perfectly understandable. And I really don't feel that Vital Spirit is much of a stretch at all. But to me this is just a choice between ruining the image of the Pokémon forever, and just leaving off one move that it probably wouldn't use in the first place. Sure, Rampardos gets Ice Beam, but please don't push it with this.

 

[Darkflagrance]

We should give this Tailwind because this is the ultimate utility pokemon and because an "elemental connection to the winds" can easily be edited in flavor-wise. We can even give this some random pre-evo baby spider that can fly, like Charlotte's babies in Charlotte's Web, and then have Tailwind transfer over in that way. Just be a bit more creative in thinking of ways to justify Tailwind than 'it spins its hands' to mollify the skeptics.

If 5-turn Tailwind is broken, we can always modify the pokemon. We are the creators, and we have the say over how broken our pokemon creations are.

 

[FlygonRuler]

We should give this Tailwind because this is the ultimate utility pokemon and because an "elemental connection to the winds" can easily be edited in flavor-wise. We can even give this some random pre-evo baby spider that can fly, like Charlotte's babies in Charlotte's Web, and then have Tailwind transfer over in that way. Just be a bit more creative in thinking of ways to justify Tailwind than 'it spins its hands' to mollify the skeptics.

If 5-turn Tailwind is broken, we can always modify the pokemon. We are the creators, and we have the say over how broken our pokemon creations are.

That's actually a creative idea, but it would be kind of hard to justify, as you can't put it in the dex description. Especially since we don't actually make pre-evos.

Tail Wind makes no sense at all flavor-wise (like that hasn't been said before) We can't compare this thing to Hyriama. Hyriama's hands are way bigger than the dady-long legs, and hyriama has brute force (being a sumo) where our's isn't intended to be powerful.

The pokemon that can learn Tailwind are:

Articuno
Butterfree
Pelipper
Pidgeot
Suicune
Xatu.

All of these pokemon have wings. Aside from Suicune, which I can easily imagine causing a gust of wind with its weird things on its back and its aura legendary-ness presence.

Our pokemon doesn't have any of those things.


Trick Room really doesn't need to be justified, but I could imagine it doing so sort of magical flip that causes everything to invert or something.

 

[Genesis of Oblivion]

Claydol is UU anyway, so who cares about him.

I do unlike you-I'm tired of all the OU pokemon same movesets so predictable.

 

[beej]

To be honest, if something like Snorlax can get Whirlwind through an egg move (which it can), I don't think we have to worry much about the move going on something that makes MORE sense (I could totally see this thing spinning around like a top and blowing somebody away). :S

On the other hand, how the hell does it use Tailwind? By flapping its arms? It should be noted that every pokemon that learns the move through levelup (which is the only way to learn it) are Flying-types, with the exception of Suicune, on which it makes a bit of sense, looking at the style of the tail-ribbon-thingy it has. Sure it would be cool, and I doubt it would be broken. But in that case, why not give it to every pokemon it would be good on, regardless of their appearance?

 

[Darkflagrance]

Appearance is not the only aspect of a pokemon that is important. Pokemon exist in the minds of the people that create them, so we can give a pokemon any move we desire and justify it by creating a fact about it. We can justify Tailwind by saying in the flavor text that DDL has a mystical connection to the earth and the elements that allows it to use moves that shift the environment, or that in the past this pokemon was worshipped as a trickster god with the ability to twist the winds and the elements. That would be sufficient justification for any continuous environment changing move we wanted to give this pokemon.

Suicune summons the winds to force Tailwind. In this pokemon's case, we can say that using its powers to shift elements it causes the wind to blow. Suicune with regards to appearance is simply a huge dog with a crystal on its head. The flavor text gives it the identity of spirit of the north wind and thus the ability to summon Tailwind. That is how it can be justified for DDL.

Really, the more significant issue that might be debated is the brokenness of 5-turn Tailwind, and I would rather let that be decided by the metagame. Tailwind hasn't really be used on a large competitive scale, and it would be interesting to see the kinds of teams built around 5-turn Tailwind.

 

[X_Presumptuous]

After Darkflagrance's reference to the ending of "Charlotte's Web", I went looking for information on the flight of baby spiders. It's very interesting and insanely cute to imagine, here's a wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballooning_%28spider%29

I'm not so opposed to it getting Tailwind anymore after reading about it. Of course, it would have to be given only to a very tiny baby spider pre-evo* with a Pokédex entry or two as back-up evidence. But with this explanation I think it's very believable, as the ballooning of baby spiders is very much the definition of Tailwind. Now we just need to worry about whether it's broken or not.
*With Cartoons!'s permission, may I draw it? I was doodling some ideas for pre-evos back when people were saying my Oho Jee looked like it could evolve into DLL in the art threads; it's just so adorable, I can barely resist! But if that's seen as risqué, I understand and please nevermind this.

 

[Dane]

How can this get Spider Web? It doesn't even remotely look like a spider. Since when does having 8 hands mean it's a spider? It's not a spider!

It's a Daddy Long Leg, which is a spider. I don't see how you can not see it as a spider. While 8 arms doesn't immediately make something a spider, that is one of the things that make a bug a spider. Insects only have 6 legs, whereas arachnids have 8. The other differences are a spider's lack of antennae and wings.

As for tailwind, if people have to stretch this much to come up with any semblence of a plausible reason... isn't that telling you how badly it fits?

 

[latinoheat]

A harvestman which this is more like, has 8 legs but is not a spider and does not spin webs.

http://www.cirrusimage.com/harvestman.htm

 

[Dane]

No, but it is an arachnid, derived from the Greek arachne, meaning spider. ;p

Either way, it's not like Ariados looks like any common spider, yet it clearly is one and is based on one. This is based on Daddy Long Legs, and was editted to be a Pokemon. It isn't really stretching things to give it Spider-web at all.

 

[DiamondDust]

last time i checked, normal spiders aren't giant and they don't have hands, big purple joints, or spikes on themselfs.
i think we can give this guy spider webs.